candylips:

From the Agile manifesto:

Twelve principles underlie the Agile Manifesto, including:[7]
Customer satisfaction by rapid delivery of useful software

Welcome changing requirements, even late in development
Working software is delivered frequently (weeks rather than months)

[b]Working software is the principal measure of progress
[/b]Sustainable development, able to maintain a constant pace

I've been too lazy to do the lifting The manifesto says it all ,

logica:

Jezuz. What is it that you don't understand here? OK I'll break it down to you.

Company XYZ sells a software package called DullSoft. XYZ has a Sales/Marketing Department and the department is headed by a seasoned seller who has spent donkey years on the field meeting clients and knows the software and client needs more than anybody else and as a matter of fact provided most of the requirements of the software.

In developing the next release of DullSoft, the team is using Agile. They release frequently and the head of the Sales/Marketing Department is a stakeholder and has access to the deploy site (a web app). This means this person is essentially a "customer" or using the term Agile knows him by, he is the Customer Representative. The software is not released till it has reached reasonable completion and that is when the end-users can have access. But the Sales/Marketing Department Head already has a few buddies in one of the end-user companies who were given access to this incomplete product. They are able to but access is restricted to just these select few who are no more than testers. Capishe?

what you have described is just an iterative version of waterfall.

A customer representative in your sales and marketing department can NEVER be a substitute for the real users of the system

As long as the software is not in PRODUCTION for us to constantly evaluate how the REAL users are using it and finding and fixing bugs, then it is not "Agile"

Wish there was a picture of xp in there, would probably look like lean.
Notice there's less opportunity to add something once an planning has started in water fall (Even iterative waterfall).

Lean looks crazy though , I've not delved into it as much as scrum and XP.

candylips:

what you have described is just an iterative version of waterfall.

A customer representative in your sales and marketing department can NEVER be a substitute for the real users of the system

As long as the software is not in PRODUCTION for us to constantly evaluate how the REAL users are using it and finding and fixing bugs, then it is not "Agile"

I think I will just respond by quoting from the Agile page on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development

Iterations are short time frames (timeboxes) that typically last from one to four weeks. Each iteration involves a team working through a full software development cycle, including planning, requirements analysis, design, coding, unit testing, and acceptance testing when a working product is demonstrated to stakeholders. This minimizes overall risk and allows the project to adapt to changes quickly. Stakeholders produce documentation as required. An iteration might not add enough functionality to warrant a market release, but the goal is to have an available release (with minimal bugs) at the end of each iteration.[9] Multiple iterations might be required to release a product or new features.

No matter what development disciplines are required, each agile team will contain a customer representative. This person is appointed by stakeholders to act on their behalf[10] and makes a personal commitment to being available for developers to answer mid-iteration problem-domain questions. At the end of each iteration, stakeholders and the customer representative review progress and re-evaluate priorities with a view to optimizing the return on investment (ROI) and ensuring alignment with customer needs and company goals.

One of the similarities of the agile and traditional methods, such as the waterfall model of software design, is to conduct the testing of the software as it is being developed. The unit testing is performed from the developer’s perspective and the acceptance testing is conducted from the customer’s perspective. The key difference is that in the agile method, the customer and developers are in close communication, whereas in the traditional method, the customer is initially represented by the requirement and design documents.

logica:

I think I will just respond by quoting from the Agile page on Wikipedia:

A customer rep is just a poor man's version of the customer however it suffices. Its not really an issue if the rep knows enough about the customer's operations. That's why a large company can employ people with 20+ years banking experience to help develop banking apps etc.

But one key differentiation between the methods are release, once something is released its not coming back! (That's how it should be). So yes you have to go into production else you're still reviewing.

Ghenghis:

A customer rep is just a poor man's version of the customer however it suffices. Its not really an issue if the rep knows enough about the customer's operations.

Wrong. The customer rep trumps the customer because he would have been in contact with multiple customers and therefore sees things from multiple perspectives. So he's basically a funnel. He will have a better understanding of the application and issues/challenges than any customer. A single customer will only see from his limited POV of course.

Ghenghis:

Using the Waterfall in this age is too painful. the application would be obsolete by the time its released. Who do you know that currently uses waterfall ?

delomos:

^^ this gent continues to speak my mind BECAUSE these are war stories (I have mine too) not an academic debate. So can you answer that question: Who do you know that currently uses waterfall ?

Sorry I don't have that information right now, but if I find organisations that provide information on the software projects they have used waterfall for, then I will let you know. I know professors who say waterfall is used for complex software projects both in commerce and industry. Well if you say you disagree with these professors, then you should know that these professors gets millions from orgainisations to carry out researches for them to implement, so for this reason I have to believe some of the things they say.

Ghenghis:

A customer rep is just a poor man's version of the customer however it suffices. Its not really an issue if the rep knows enough about the customer's operations. That's why a large company can employ people with 20+ years banking experience to help develop banking apps etc.

But one key differentiation between the methods are release, once something is released its not coming back! (That's how it should be). So yes you have to go into production else you're still reviewing.

Exactly !!

Iterations are short time frames (timeboxes) that typically last from one to four weeks. Each iteration involves a team working through a full software development cycle, including planning, requirements analysis, design, coding, unit testing, and acceptance testing when a working product

An iteration is just like iterative waterfall. Some of these agile folks just like confusing themselves and other people.  see diagram provided above

An iteration might not add enough functionality to warrant a market release, but the goal is to have an available release (with minimal bugs) at the end of each iteration.[9] Multiple iterations might be required to release a product or new features.

Very true  but then this also is the case in Iterative waterfall the only difference is that in Iterative waterfall you get the solution to PRODUCTION which i thought was the main purpose of agile in the first place.

Ghenghis:

Wish there was a picture of xp in there, would probably look like lean.
Notice there's less opportunity to add something once an planning has started in water fall (Even iterative waterfall).

Lean looks crazy though  , I've not delved into it as much as scrum and XP.

Lean is the next evolution of agile madness 

I like it though. i use lean practices like kanban, cadence, WIP  and they seem to work to some extent

candylips:

I like it though. i use lean practices like kanban, cadence, WIP  and they seem to work to some extent

^^ Never really encountered this in the real world, can you share your experience with it (why do you like it, how is it better than the status quo)?

csharpjava:

, I know professors who say waterfall is used for complex software projects both in commerce and industry. Well if you say you disagree with these professors, then you should know that these professors gets millions from orgainisations to carry out researches for them to implement, so for this reason I have to believe some of the things the say.

^^^ No offense but often Professors live in their heads,

delomos:

^^^ No offense but often Professors live in their heads,

Not the professors I know in the UK, which ones are you referring to? If you should hold a seminar for businesses on how to choose the right software methodology and a professor should also do the same who's seminar do you think businesses will turn up at, yours or the professor's?

csharpjava:

Not the professors I know in the UK, which ones are you referring to? If you should hold a seminar for businesses on how to choose the right software methodology and a professor should also do the same who's seminar do you think businesses will turn up at, yours or the professor's?

Hmm, I also know loads of professors. They're great but be careful not to misquote them. I also came across many methodologies during MSc. in the UK (An i believe my lecturers where also profs. , at least i hope).

Read more about water fall, do a little research and draw your own conclusions.
If i were to tell you some stories I've heard about COBOL(in 2012), from some senior engineers in the US, for instance you wont believe it. Always talking about Cobol copy book etc. like all the fortune 500s where using it. Ironically he only recently heard of PHP.

My point: Everyone has their own experiences. You can't simply take someones word for it, no matter how distinguished!

Ghenghis:

Hmm, I also know loads of professors. They're great but be careful not to misquote them. I also came across many methodologies during MSc. in the UK (An i believe my lecturers where also profs. , at least i hope).

Read more about water fall, do a little research and draw your own conclusions.
If i were to tell you some stories I've heard about COBOL(in 2012), from some senior engineers in the US, for instance you wont believe it. Always talking about Cobol copy book etc. like all the fortune 500s where using it. Ironically he only recently heard of PHP.

My point: Everyone has their own experiences. You can't simply take someones word for it, no matter how distinguished!

Couldn't agree more!

Let me had mine: and I did mine in the US and there is this particular professor who is really great (had him for Data St/Alg 1 & 2 and Soft. Eng. Arch.) and gets money for grant from some company for research (WHICH really biases is research but that's another story), he swears by Java (and for disclosure, he actually co-authored a book on the language) and thought us that, well, I learnt a few things about Java from him, but his indoctrination is another story -- learn to learn.

Ghenghis:

Using the Waterfall in this age is too painful. the application would be obsolete by the time its released. Who do you know that currently uses waterfall ?

delomos:

question: Who do you know that currently uses waterfall ?

OK I will leave professors out of this discussion as both of you have shown that you do not agree with their claims about waterfall. Going back to your question above, well here is a company that uses waterfall: Saahi Systems This is what they have to say:

"Our clients range from Global Fortune 500 companies to small start up and medium sized companies."

"Web Development : As per the customer requirements, Saahi follows the waterfall model (which was the original SDLC method) and rapid application development (RAD) model or a hybrid of other development models to deliver web solutions."

"Application Development : Saahi uses the Software development life cycle (SDLC), which is a conceptual model, used in project management that describes the stages involved in an information system development project, from an initial feasibility study through maintenance of the completed application. Various SDLC methodologies have been developed to guide the processes involved. We at Saahi basically use the waterfall model (which was the original SDLC method) and rapid application development (RAD) model or a hybrid of other development models to deliver solutions to our customers depending on the need."

csharpjava:


"Web Development : As per the customer requirements, Saahi follows the waterfall model (which was the original SDLC method) and rapid application development (RAD) model or a hybrid of other development models to deliver web solutions."

ghenghis:
From my experience many companies end up with hybrid methodologies : what works for them . This is usually based on the size of the company, type of customers, sales cycle and other policies.

I think we're getting to common ground now,

Ghenghis:

I think we're getting to common ground now,

In addition, will I really trust this company with doing any web development for me? I highlighted some serious issue on their on site but in honesty, they're probably still "planning" to get them fixed.

delomos:

In addition, will I really trust this company with doing any web development for me? I highlighted some serious issue on their on site but in honesty, they're probably still "planning" to get them fixed.

Alright if you cannot trust that company I mentioned above, then what about IBM here is what Per Kroll the director of the Rational Unified Process development and product management teams at IBM Rational Software has to say. "Most software teams still use a waterfall process for development projects." Source: IBM if you still disagree with this guy at IBM then you will have to post your own article on the website of a top company like IBM.

@delomos:


Please ignore the attached image below as the article was written in 2004, this is too old for this discussion. I have tried to remove it but I keep getting the message: An unexpected error has occurred. So sorry about this.

delomos:

^^ this gent continues to speak my mind BECAUSE these are war stories (I have mine too) not an academic debate. So can you answer that question: Who do you know that currently uses waterfall ?

Here is a recent job advert by eBay on indeedDotCom:
Software Engineer 3 - new
eBay - Salt Lake City, UT
"to ensure the success of the team and project Experience in formal waterfall development and agile iterative methodologies Ability to translate abstract..."
eBay - 7 days ago - save job - block - email - more...

Remember that it was a question about how Ecommerce sites like eBay and Amazon were developed that lead to you opening this thread. This should prove to you that waterfall is still very well in use today for complex applications. If you look back at most of my post you'll see that I have always been in support of an Iterative Waterfall development.

csharpjava:

Here is a recent job advert by eBay on indeedDotCom:
Software Engineer 3 - new
eBay - Salt Lake City, UT
"to ensure the success of the team and project Experience in formal waterfall development and agile iterative methodologies Ability to translate abstract..."
eBay - 7 days ago - save job - block - email - more...

Remember that it was a question about how websites like eBay and Amazon were developed that lead to you opening this thread. This should prove to you that waterfall is still very well in use today for complex applications. If you look back at most of my post you'll see that I have always been in support of an Iterative Waterfall development.

If you think through the entire discussion, you'll realize "complex" does not translate to "critical". Business applications are complex, not necessarily life critical.
Complex applications can be built (and are built) using agile methods. If we're talking "life critical" like biomedical software or systems software then the playground is different. Requirements are usually very clear up front, and changes go through a stringent or very costly process. Waterfall's rigorous process might act as a form of Quality assurance ... I'm certain the "website" is not built using waterfall, maybe a core component technology.

Ghenghis:
If you think through the entire discussion, you'll realize "complex" does not translate to "critical". Business applications are complex, not necessarily life critical.
Complex applications can be built (and are built) using agile methods. If we're talking "life critical" like biomedical software or systems software then the playground is different. Requirements are usually very clear up front, and changes go through a stringent or very costly process. Waterfall's rigorous process might act as a form of Quality assurance ... I'm certain the "website" is not built using waterfall, maybe a core component technology.

There are three categories of critical applications, they are: life critical, Mission Critical and Business critical applications. The core applications for companies like eBay and banks are Business Critical applications, this is the reason they are developed using a Waterfall or Iterative Waterfall methodology as it is important that the entire core requirements are fully developed and tested with one of the methodologies of Formal Methods in Software Engineering like VDM-SL to ensure they will not fail, before they are put into production. Business Critical applications are complex because they are high Integrity applications which must not fail, if not organisations like eBay and banks will loose millions of money if their core applications should fail.

Agile methodologies are used for applications that are not life critical, Mission Critical or Business critical, when application developed with agile fails life and money are not lost, you just have to wait for a patch few weeks or months down the line to fix it.

csharpjava:
Agile methodologies are used for applications that are not life critical, Mission Critical or Business critical, when application developed with agile fails life and money are not lost, you just have to wait for a patch few weeks or months down the line to fix it.

WRONG!!!

And this is a super interesting read (titled: "Agile is a Sham":


thats SCRUM and TDD and all the rest; it is all those new ways of managing development projects and being super-productive and modern and buzzword-compliant; all the sprints, scrums, playing cards crass commercial nonsense.

The management pitch is that by getting programmers to follow some process rote you will get good, predictable results out.

See, the thing is, the success of the coding-part of a project is dependent on the calibre of the engineers doing that coding and not the process they follow.

The success of the non-coding part of a project is dependent on the calibre of your sales/management and how they interact with the customer. If you are trying to prescribe some rigid process, however lean, in order to make that interaction effective, then you have a customer interface problem and process isn’t going to help it....continue reading here > http://williamedwardscoder.tumblr.com/post/20054342100/agile-is-a-sham