donjazet:


I may be mourinho's fan but that doesn't take away my objectivity,

Objective? With statements like this?

donjazet:


With the imminent appointment of José to man united, I am suddenly Doubting my loyalty to Chelsea football club, I am sort of confused who I'll support right now and this is my reason.

We don't believe you bro, you need more people.

And Moreso it's not as if Rodgers was abysmal, he almost won the title with Liverpool Suarez and made some good signings which Klopp harnesses now in addition to his own signings.

Fixed that for you. As soon as Suarez left, Rodgers was exposed as a mediocre and was last seen conceding 10 goals in two games in Europe with Celtic. The same Liverpool side that Rodgers could not get anything of substance out of, is the one that Klopp has transformed.

This Liverpool team minus Mane, Wijnaldum and Matip were entirely signed by Rodgers. I wont count Karius because he's not even really the 1st choice. Firmino was a joke under Rodgers, and everybody used to laugh at lallana. I don't know if you remember the criticism that Lovren used to get, and how Coutinho was described by someone here as Oscar with a longshot.

Klopp is the difference between this Liverpool and that Liverpool...it has nothing to do with squad strength. So when you say Liverpool have the stronger squad to exonerate your hero, I'm sorry but I have to call you out.

Only in May, most bookies had Manyoo second or third favourites to win the league only behind City and/or Chelsea. Now I'm hearing they have a worse squad than Liverpool.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11667/10294312/man-utd-premier-league-title-odds-slashed-by-sky-bet-after-jose-mourinho-appointment
http://www.101greatgoals.com/premier-league-outright-winner-20162017-tips-odds-predictions/
http://talksport.com/football/odds-win-premier-league-201617-title-every-club-ranked-biggest-outsiders-favourites?p=18

I'm at work so can't access gambling sites, but maybe Raumdeuter can give us the odds from oddschecker.

Don J. Fear God!

Nihilstjnr:


This point you're making is a related but completely different argument.

From a tactical perspective it made sense to play for a point against a bitter rival in top form..and of course Jose has precedent, this is what he does.

Still, there's clearly a case for questioning Jose's ambition. This is a coach with something to prove after being disgraced out of a club he loved for a second time, at a club with something to prove after the departure of Alex Ferguson, managing players like Ibra and Pogba who also want to prove why they are worth all the hype...

I refuse to believe that Liverpool are better than Manyoo. Not even Jose believes that...yet his fear of losing was yet again greater than his desire to win.It is that fear that was made manifest in his tactics..and this is the very thing that we are talking about. Well, at least, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Mou is the manager of the team and he will deploy a tactics that he deem fit to either earn a draw or win a particular match. There's no golden rule stated anywhere that you must always attack in a match, you set up your team according to the opposition you are playing. Klopp Liverpool are in top form and going all attack against them is sure defeat. (Case in point Arsenal and Chelsea) In fact the only team to beat this Liverpool side was Burnley parking trailers. Irrespective of the money spent, you gauge your team against the opposition and choose the better tactics available.

Martial and Mihki are out injured which definitely limited our attacking play, I see no reason why Mou is wrong to play for a draw at Anfield when Liverpool has beaten both Chelsea and Arsenal away from home.

I will gladly take a D over a L against our arch rivals any day of the year

As long as he doesn't set up his team like that against the lower sides. I'm satisfied.

nateevs:



What does that even mean? Both managers knew they were taking over their respective sides at about the same time.
You say the poll says United fans are satisfied? Quote this post and keep. It's just a matter of time.

And to squash that last part once and for all. "Highest trophies and nothing to prove" only applies to the blinkered JM fans in tinted glasses. I will stand here and tell you any day, that at least half a billions Euros have been spent to achieve that and he's done so in circumstances of moderate tactical and financial competition.

For the first time in his career, he is right in the mix; competing against 5 other genuine league contenders who can also match his spending power. The league's gone from a top four to a proper top six. Who says he has nothing to prove? This is where it will become clear for everyone to see that his style of football will not stand the test of time.

Noticed how many times you used that word.?? Now we are on the same page!
That is what I have been saying since!! That is the baseline of this argument.
I am saying its too early to start judging him. It's not as if manu are so terrible right now. By December/january, the judgements can start falling out but it is still early to say mourinho is a failure at manu.

On a side note, I can't believe you would want to just wave his achievements with the flap of your hands and put it just down to the amount spent.
Many people would not want to state his net spend, apart from his first spell in Chelsea and last summer in manu, his modus operandi has been to sell some players and get quality players in return.
Zlatan for eto, militio
Higuain for dimaria,modric
Davidluiz, schurle, debruyne for Costa, fabregasn and Filipe Luis.
That's good transfer policy which brought the immediate successes.
And Moreso not many coaches who spend a lot of money utilise them well as mourinho has done.

Rodgers threw away about 90million on flops. Van goal spent close to 300million and couldn't achieve something tangible.

larride:

I will gladly take a D over a L against our arch rivals any day of the year

It looks like this point gets completely overlooked. Can you prove to me beyond reasonable doubt that if united went out to attack Liverpool, they SURELY would have lost the game? Please oblige me.

Don't forget that as we have stated earlier Mata, Mhkitaryan, Rashford, Rooney, Ibra, Pogba will walk into the Liverpool side. Unless you are disagreeing with this also.

larride:
As long as he doesn't set up his team like that against the lower sides. I'm satisfied.

Are you saying No side can beat Liverpool by attacking them? This is Liverpool oo ordinary Liverpool

I am sure I heard this same argument about how playing defensive was the best option vs City because if he had attacked City he would have lost until Tottenham showed us that they were not really exceptional

You probably would have told us attacking David Moyes Man Utd in that yr too would have led to a loss

If Liverpool and City are these fierce attacking force that you need to line up defensively against like he has done vs Atletico, David Moyes etc in the past. I shiver to imagine the formation he will deploy vs say Barcelona

donjazet:


Noticed how many times you used that word.?? Now we are on the same page!
That is what I have been saying since!! That is the baseline of this argument.
I am saying its too early to start judging him. It's not as if manu are so terrible right now. By December/january, the judgements can start falling out but it is still early to say mourinho is a failure at manu.

On a side note, I can't believe you would want to just wave his achievements with the flap of your hands and put it just down to the amount spent.
Many people would not want to state his net spend, apart from his first spell in Chelsea and last summer in manu, his modus operandi has been to sell some players and get quality players in return.
Zlatan for eto, militio
Higuain for dimaria,modric
Davidluiz, schurle, debruyne for Costa, fabregasn and Filipe Luis.
That's good transfer policy which brought the immediate successes.
And Moreso not many coaches who spend a lot of money utilise them well as mourinho has done.

Rodgers threw away about 90million on flops. Van goal spent close to 300million and couldn't achieve something tangible.

Mate. You are applying my use of time in a misconstrued context. Please read again.


And please don't attempt to re-write history. Jose has never been a shrewd transfer manager and will never be. His modus-operandi is clear-out and then spend big. If the Technical Directors and finance guys behind the scene manage to get good money for those that have been flogged out, then that's a good. Not a point to score for JM. He doesn't concern himself with sh1t like that. Even if the player goes for a £1, he doesn't phucking care. If you don't give him his spend, the fighting starts.

nateevs:



It looks like this point gets completely overlooked. Can you prove to me beyond reasonable doubt that if united went out to attack Liverpool, they SURELY would have lost the game? Please oblige me.

Don't forget that as we have stated earlier Mata, Mhkitaryan, Rashford, Rooney, Ibra, Pogba will walk into the Liverpool side. Unless you are disagreeing with this also.

Mihki and Mata didn't play at all, Rooney was a substitute, Pogba was uber useless.

Arsenal attacked them and were swept aside, what's to say we won't get swept aside if we go all attack against them, Chelsea didn't even go all attack against them and yet you guys lose, it's just a game and you can't judge a man by it.

raumdeuter:


Are you saying No side can beat Liverpool by attacking them? This is Liverpool oo ordinary Liverpool

I am sure I heard this same argument about how playing defensive was the best option vs City because if he had attacked City he would have lost until Tottenham showed us that they were not really exceptional

You probably would have told us attacking David Moyes Man Utd in that yr too would have led to a loss

Oga Dayo, we didn't play that deep against Man City, be truthful to yourself now. Man City game was more open than this.

Nihilstjnr:


From a tactical perspective it made sense to play for a point against a bitter rival in top form..and of course Jose has precedent, this is what he does.

Nihilstjnr:

Still, there's clearly a case for questioning Jose's ambition.

Nihilstjnr:

his fear of losing was yet again greater than his desire to win

If we are using the Liverpool vs Man Utd match as a sole basis for this discussion, then ayam not hundastanding again oh...

If your 1st point ( the bolded part) is known to be a norm, why should the other assertions come up again...in the same post?

larride:


Oga Dayo, we didn't play that deep against Man City, be truthful to yourself now. Man City game was more open than this.

And you chopped it....and so the fear of losing kicked in, and the result was this:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/4370874_img20161018wa0003_jpegf9561e29bfab213159f77cd06595d35d

200m in one summer to do this...against Liverpool of all teams?

Even Conte as much as I don't rate him showed a bit more ambition.

Nihilstjnr:


And you chopped it....and so the fear of losing kicked in, and the result was this:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/4370874_img20161018wa0003_jpegf9561e29bfab213159f77cd06595d35d

200m in one summer to do this...against Liverpool of all teams?

Even Conte as much as I don't rate him showed a bit more ambition.

We lost against City because of our profligacy in front of goal. Zlatan was just ballooning all the ball into the stand.

That same Liverpool of all teams beat your own attacking team at your home ground.

I repeat I will gladly take that D than a L.

larride:


Mihki and Mata didn't play at all, Rooney was a substitute, Pogba was uber useless.

Arsenal attacked them and were swept aside, what's to say we won't get swept aside if we go all attack against them, Chelsea didn't even go all attack against them and yet you guys lose, it's just a game and you can't judge a man by it.

The intention of adding Mata and Mhkitaryan to the list is to remind you of the wealth of arsenal possessed at the club. And that at the disposal of someone different, united will be playing some dangerous attacking football with Ibra already the league's top scorer. Do you think Pep will be benching those two if he were at United?

Conversely, if City had made the mistake of hiring JM, the likes Silva will not be playing and DeBryune will not be playing and you fellas will be telling the same thing.


Tell me honestly, do you think JM is going to attack Chelsea on the weekend? Your honest answer will put an end to this argument.

nateevs:



It looks like this point gets completely overlooked. Can you prove to me beyond reasonable doubt that if united went out to attack Liverpool, they SURELY would have lost the game? Please oblige me.

Don't forget that as we have stated earlier Mata, Mhkitaryan, Rashford, Rooney, Ibra, Pogba will walk into the Liverpool side. Unless you are disagreeing with this also.

This is an excerpt from dailymails article .

Mourinho travelled west on Monday knowing that if his team stood toe to toe with a more confident, in-form Liverpool team then the chances are United would have lost 4-2. Sky would have loved that and so would the rest of us but the poll on the MEN website would have looked very different.The current United have deep and entrenched limitations, born of poor planning at the back end of the Ferguson era and three seasons of regression under David Moyes and Van Gaal. Mourinho will address these over time and if he can’t manage it then he, too, will be asked to make way.

Arsenal and Chelsea tried and failed, why would manu still attempt attacking them when they know that right now, they are not up to them in terms of intensity and cohesion

AdisaOwala:






If we are using the Liverpool vs Man Utd match as a sole basis for this discussion, then ayam not hundastanding again oh...

If your 1st point ( the bolded part) is known to be a norm, why should the other assertions come up again...in the same post?

Because even in previous games where Jose had parked the bus, he had never been this negative.

When they told him at the press conference how he felt about managing only 35% possession in the game, he ran to your inhouse statistician to conjure another number.

Even Jose was so ashamed of that display that he came back to dispute the possession stats.

Because it's one thing to camp and bunker at a club like Chelsea with relatively smaller pedigree in world football. It's another thing to do it at the biggest club in Europe immediately after signing the most expensive player in the world.

Come on Demola. You wouldn't stand for this normally. Christopher Reeves wouldn't sit for this neither

Nihilstjnr:


And you chopped it....and so the fear of losing kicked in, and the result was this:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/4370874_img20161018wa0003_jpegf9561e29bfab213159f77cd06595d35d

200m in one summer to do this...against Liverpool of all teams?

Even Conte as much as I don't rate him showed a bit more ambition.

And was the end result??
Chelsea lost!! So why would mourinho after seeing this still attempt going all out attack.

nateevs:


The intention of adding Mata and Mhkitaryan to the list is to remind you of the wealth of arsenal possessed at the club. And that at the disposal of someone different, united will be playing some dangerous attacking football with Ibra already the league's top scorer. Do you think Pep will be benching those two if he were at United?

Conversely, if City had made the mistake of hiring JM, the likes Silva will not be playing and DeBryune will not be playing and you fellas will be telling the same thing.


Tell me honestly, do you think JM is going to attack Chelsea on the weekend? Your honest answer will put an end to this argument.

Mihki played against City and was rubbish.

YES, We will attack you guys on Sunday because he has something to prove against your guys which he claimed betrayed him. Sunday is not far off.

donjazet:


This is an excerpt from dailymails article .


Arsenal and Chelsea tried and failed, why would manu still attempt attacking them when they know that right now, they are not up to them in terms of intensity and cohesion

Let me show you the highest rated comments on that 'article'

Nihilstjnr:


This point you're making is a related but completely different argument.

From a tactical perspective it made sense to play for a point against a bitter rival in top form..and of course Jose has precedent, this is what he does.

Still, there's clearly a case for questioning Jose's ambition. This is a coach with something to prove after being disgraced out of a club he loved for a second time, at a club with something to prove after the departure of Alex Ferguson, managing players like Ibra and Pogba who also want to prove why they are worth all the hype...

I refuse to believe that Liverpool are better than Manyoo. Not even Jose believes that...yet his fear of losing was yet again greater than his desire to win.It is that fear that was made manifest in his tactics..and this is the very thing that we are talking about. Well, at least, that's the point I'm trying to make.

my man, I get your point. But what I can glean from this your comment is a desperate desire for Mourinho to prove himself after the debacle of last season. We're all know Mourinho is a top class coach, but after last season, his reputation was badly rubbished. He needed to regain back his reputation. Even with a bruised reputation, he was highly sought after by clubs and he finally settled for to top club that has been for the past 3 seasons and desperately needed a revival. By all ramifications, that was a tough job, but he accepted it anyway. He has started well, that's never in doubt. What he needs is TIME..... .....and that is what you're too impatient to afford him, just like you seemed too impatient to afford Conte time.

When Man United faced Liverpool, no one can argue that Liverpool were/are the in-form team, in terms of play, performance and on-field success. Man United on the other hand, were the most expensively assembled of the two teams. I won't argue that money doesn't buy titles, but money DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY guarantee you titles.

We've all known Mourinho to be a defensive-minded coach, so his tactics against Liverpool and maybe Man City shouldn't be surprising. He set up his team not to lose. In some sense, what informed his tactics was more psychological. But that's by the way.

Give Mourinho and Conte time to build their teams and with time you will see they are not just defensive-minded in their tactics.

So after holding the record numbers of goal scored by a team in EPL, he is still a negative minded coach abi?

Yes, we all agree, Mourinho is a bad coach.

Peace.

Nihilist:


What's the difference between this and a Rugby defensive.

Donjazet, you know the guy that wrote that Article absolving Jose of the blame after the game?

Read what he wrote before the game.

Danhumprey:
[b][size=14pt]my man, I get your point. But what I can glean from this your comment is a desperate desire for Mourinho to prove himself after the debacle of last season. We're all know Mourinho is a top class coach, but after last season, his reputation was badly rubbished. He needed to regain back his reputation. Even with a bruised reputation, he was highly sought after by clubs and he finally settled for to top club that has been for the past 3 seasons and desperately needed a revival. By all ramifications, that was a tough job, but he accepted it anyway. He has started well, that's never in doubt. What he needs is TIME..... .....and that is what you're too impatient to afford him, just like you seemed too impatient to afford Conte time.

When Man United faced Liverpool, no one can argue that Liverpool were/are the in-form team, in terms of play, performance and on-field success. Man United on the other hand, were the most expensively assembled of the two teams. I won't argue that money doesn't buy titles, but money DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY guarantee you titles.

We've all known Mourinho to be a defensive-minded coach, so his tactics against Liverpool and maybe Man City shouldn't be surprising. He set up his team not to lose. In some sense, what informed his tactics was more psychological. But that's by the way.

Give Mourinho and Conte time to build their teams and with time you will see they are not just defensive-minded in their tactics[/size][/b].

You couldn't have said it any better. Maybe I need to spam the thread and repost this post 20 times for people to get this point.!!!
Time is needed to see mourinho's work. It is too early!! to conclude.

larride:
So after holding the record numbers of goal scored by a team in EPL, he is still a negative minded coach abi?

Yes, we all agree, Mourinho is a bad coach.

Peace.

Nateevs doesn't like Jose normally.

Of course, I think Jose is a fantasic coach and actually knows how to attack....BUT...in this game against Liverpool, I saw a shocking lack of ambition. Rashford at right back tori olorun

Nihilstjnr:
Donjazet, you know the guy that wrote that Article absolving Jose of the blame after the game?

Read what he wrote before the game.

If you are implying that the writer was not objective or is sentimental towards mourinho, fine. But what about the 82% who voted that they were satisfied with the result considering the earlier laid down factors??

Nihilstjnr:


Nateevs doesn't like Jose normally.

Of course ,I think Jose is a fantasic coach and actually knows how to attack....BUT...in this game against Liverpool, I saw a shocking lack of ambition. Rashford at right back tori olorun

Whew!! Who could have thought you would finally say that?
I guess my point is made.

Nihilstjnr:


Nateevs doesn't like Jose normally.

Of course, I think Jose is a fantasic coach and actually knows how to attack....BUT...in this game against Liverpool, I saw a shocking lack of ambition. Rashford at right back tori olorun

With the way you guys are going this about, you are making it seems like that's how Mourinho always set up his team.

Against Liverpool he went for a draw and got it. that's all.

larride:


Oga Dayo, we didn't play that deep against Man City, be truthful to yourself now. Man City game was more open than this.

Against City you created no chance until you were down 2-0 and your chances mainly were from Bravo mistakes.

donjazet:


If you are implying that the writer was not objective or is sentimental towards mourinho, fine. But what about the 82% who voted that they were satisfied with the result considering the earlier laid down factors??

What if I asked you to produce such a poll?

Can you give us a link to it?

It's not surprising the way Nateevs and raumdeuter are attacking this Mourinho issue, it's clear to understand. The loathe the man. I myself I'm not so much a fan of Mourinho. But let's be realistic.

As regards the Liverpool vs Man United match....... The key word here is CURRENT FORM ..........and I'm sure none of you here will honestly have been expecting this current team to beat Liverpool,irrespective of how much it was assembled. Because based on current form, Man United wasn't a real match for Liverpool. There's no team cohesion yet, the attack seemed to have gone blunt as of recent.



With time, when the team click, there won't be any questions about who the better team is.

donjazet:
This is an excerpt from dailymails article .

Arsenal and Chelsea tried and failed, why would manu still attempt attacking them when they know that right now, they are not up to them in terms of intensity and cohesion

How did the writer of that article know Man Utds attacking talent wont overpower Liverpools? Didnt we see Spurs tear City to shreds without parking the bus?

Nihilstjnr:
Let me show you the highest rated comments on that 'article'

Why is that Jason guy biting my lyrics and yarns?

You know I once posted a thread on Nairaland and someone took it to BBC 606 of those days, Coincidentally it was to criticize Mourinho too