Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified and that he was saved from crucifixion by God,

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";― but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.― (Surah 4:156)

And they [i.e., the disbelievers] planned, but God planned. And God is the best of planners (Surah 3:52)

I would like to pick out two things i. it was made to appear to them like that (meaning people did think that Jesus, the son of Mary was crucified)
ii. there was a plan which God prevented.

The christian will say " the crucifixion is a historic fact"... well, maybe... but was Jesus (peace be upon him), the one crucified. In many translations of bible, you will come across this story, i will use the KJV:

Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? Mathew (27:17)

A number of important things are omitted in this translation of the bible, the earliest manuscripts of the bible reveal something quite remarkable.. The new revised standard version translators went to the earliest sources and they have this thought-provoking translation:
)
So after they had gathered, Pilate said to them, "Whom do you want me to release for you, Jesus Barabbas or Jesus who is called the Messiah?" (Mathew 27:17

http://www.devotions.net/bible/40matthew.htm, http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Matthew+27

Notice something different, there are two men named Jesus; Jesus Barabbas and Jesus who is called messiah. It looks like bible translators dropped the Jesus in front of barabbas.

It gets more intriguing because barabbas is not a name, barabbas is a patronymic. It literally means "son of the father". Bible translators have also not had the courage to translate that.

So we had two options: 1. Jesus, the son of the father
2. Jesus , who was called the anointed (Messiah)

Messiah as a word simply means anointed, many people could have been called messiah.Many Jewish priests had the appellation of messiah so it is not by any means an exclusive name.

At the end of the day, Jesus, the son of the father was let go.... Could this be Jesus, the son of Mary Like the Quran says, they planned and God planned.... God is the best of planners... It was made to seem like that to them.

So one Jesus was crucified, outside the new testament.. there are no 'eye-witness' report of the crucifixtion. None of the reports we get are from eye witnesses.

And surely Allah knows best...

Even though I do not subscribe to the Jesus was crucified for the whole of mankind and resurrected nonsense myth. . .I am just tired of muslims seeking validation for their religion through christianity. . . .Was anybody there when Mohammed was allegedly receiving his revelations in a cave?

mazaje: ...muslims seeking validation for their religion through christianity...

I've noticed this as well but I guess this thread also serves to highlight...how much do believers actually know about their faith?

emöfine2:

I've noticed this as well but I guess this thread also serves to highlight...how much do believers actually know about their faith?

Very few people know much about their faith. . .Like the fact that no one knows who really wrote all the gospels. . .Very few christians actually know that the authors of the gospels are unknown. . . .

mazaje: Even though I do not subscribe to the Jesus was crucified for the whole of mankind and resurrected nonsense myth. . .I am just tired of muslims seeking validation for their religion through christianity. . . .Was anybody there when Mohammed was allegedly receiving his revelations in a cave?

It isn't about seeking validation, it is about spreading information. Those who seek validation are those uncertain of their faith. I am more than convinced about my faith so i do not need validation of anything but many christians are not aware of these possibilities. They are unaware of their history for the most part. Those who become aware, ask more questions.

The faiths are linked whether you like it or not. Muslims accept Jesus (AS) as a righteous prophet of God... We have fundamental differences in our beliefs.. one of those differences is the crucifixion... like i showed, It looks like the earliest manuscripts offer us clues as to what might have happened if we accept the muslim view. I just threw something out there: two men called Jesus were up for crucifixion... one was released... whether or not this was the way Jesus was saved is still up in the air..

It is all from the christian text...

mazaje: Even though I do not subscribe to the Jesus was crucified for the whole of mankind and resurrected nonsense myth. . .I am just tired of muslims seeking validation for their religion through christianity. . . .Was anybody there when Mohammed was allegedly receiving his revelations in a cave?

Thank you, furthermore, Tbaba is a coward that avoids threads that have factual criticism of his religion and then comes here to bash christianity.

Tbaba and Islam are jokes, they copy the christian and Jewish religion and then claim that their religion is the true religion. Jesus was born a jew and lived around jews in a time that there werent Arabs or muslims in Jerusalem.



Keep avoiding threads on islam, Tbaba;
https://www.nairaland.com/945273/pakistan-banning-twitter-censorship
https://www.nairaland.com/943454/things-they-wont-tell-you

the one who came eating and drinking

tbaba1234:

It isn't about seeking validation, it is about spreading information. Those who seek validation are those uncertain of their faith. I am more than convinced about my faith so i do not need validation of anything but many christians are not aware of these possibilities. They are unaware of their history for the most part. Those who become aware, ask more questions.

Same can be said of muslims. . . . .

The faiths are linked whether you like it or not. Muslims accept Jesus (AS) as a righteous prophet of God... We have fundamental differences in our beliefs.. one of those differences is the crucifixion... like i showed, It looks like the earliest manuscripts offer us clues as to what might have happened if we accept the muslim view. I just threw something out there: two men called Jesus were up for crucifixion... one was released... whether or not this was the way Jesus was saved is still up in the air..

It is all from the christian text...

The faiths are linked only because one copied from the other. . . .The earliest manuscript offer no clue as to what you are suggesting. . . its very clear who the scripts say was crucified. . . . you are only dwelling on conspiracy. . . .

The governor again said to them, Which of the two do you want me to release for you? And they said, Barabbas. Pilate said to them, Then what should I do with Jesus who is called the Messiah? All of them said, Let him be crucified! Then he asked, Why, what evil has he done? But they shouted all the more, Let him be crucified!

Even if Jesus Barabas was written the text goes on to say Jesus the messiah was the one that was crucified. . . .The text do NOT support anything you have posted here. . .

mazaje: Even though I do not subscribe to the Jesus was crucified for the whole of mankind and resurrected nonsense myth. . .I am just tired of muslims seeking validation for their religion through christianity. . . .Was anybody there when Mohammed was allegedly receiving his revelations in a cave?

Funny the same way nobody can verify whether you are an atheist from anger and frustration rather than serious thinking, no? . . .

@logicboy Id rather remain civil with you, so please let us keep it that way.

@mazaje
For you, these are myths... Muslims have good reasons to believe that everything is factual, but that is another discussion.

There is no conspiracy here, i wouldn't be putting this if it is not a valid claim .... I think it raises serious doubts as to who exactly was crucified.

Jesus, the son of the father was saved. Jesus who is called the messiah was killed, Barabbas is a patronymic not a name. It means 'son of the father'.

Messiah is not an exclusive name for Jesus... It simply means anointed.... Jewish priests were called messiah for instance and many people were called messiah (anointed) in the bible. So you have two people bearing names Jesus could have used... That is the interesting point.

It looks like you didn't read the whole thing i wrote.

It really beats me how a corrupted and invalid religion should proof a holy 'message hot from heaven' religion.....When will muslims focus more on developing themselves rather than seeking to discredit yet credit islam through the mirror of the bible

vedaxcool:

Funny the same way nobody can verify whether you are an atheist from anger and frustration rather than serious thinking, no? . . .

Oi....what is your belief born out of? Can you expanciate? and do complete your sig....

mkmyers45:

Oi....what is your belief born out of? Can you expanciate? and do complete your sig....

Lol! It should be clear that the best u atheists always make is self indicting question . . . It is not about what I believe is about some irregular banter about how he cannot verify any claims by others, yet digs the same pit for himself. when would we meet atheist that can coherent argument? You guess is as good as mine, when cows are able to jump over the moon.

vedaxcool:

Lol! It should be clear that the best u atheists always make is self indicting question . . . It is not about what I believe is about some irregular banter about how he cannot verify any claims by others, yet digs the same pit for himself. when would we meet atheist that can coherent argument? You guess is as good as mine, when cows are able to jump over the moon.

and the ever willing question dodger....SIMPLE QUESTION: WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF BORN OUT OF?

vedaxcool:

Lol! It should be clear that the best u atheists always make is self indicting question . . . It is not about what I believe is about some irregular banter about how he cannot verify any claims by others, yet digs the same pit for himself. when would we meet atheist that can coherent argument? You guess is as good as mine, when cows are able to jump over the moon.

Guy, stop trolling. Your religion has been debunked.

-Jesus (both the crucified and un-crucified )lived in a time when there were no Arabs or Muslims in Jerusalem.
-Jesus was copied from christianity by Islam.
-4 wives maximum in Koran but Muhammad had up to 12

Surah 4 Verse 3:
And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.

mkmyers45:

and the ever willing question dodger....SIMPLE QUESTION: WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF BORN OUT OF?

Well your simple question is a FOOLISH question in all aspects, as how does it address what I wrote? If you can point to how it address what I wrote then you might get an answer (being that a foolish answer to this question won't be accepted). this atheists can never get it right even when simple common sense is just required and then they deceive themselves that they have answered more complex questions? What a pity, I see alice in wonder land in this people.

Some atheists will never be well? And it is not a curse it is just the statement of things we observe, like imagine a topic is about the allege crucifixion and someone hair brain is interpreting the topic to be about muhammad pbuh and his wives, it is little wonder why atheism by frustration and for frustration best describe this anomaly! .

double post

tbaba1234:

@mazaje
For you, these are myths... Muslims have good reasons to believe that everything is factual, but that is another discussion.

Jesus was born by a virgin is factual or some angel revealed the koran to Mohammed in a cave is factual right?. . .Interesting. . .

There is no conspiracy here, i wouldn't be putting this if it is not a valid claim .... I think it raises serious doubts as to who exactly was crucified.

Jesus, the son of the father was saved. Jesus who is called the messiah was killed, Barabbas is a patronymic not a name. It means 'son of the father'.

Messiah is not an exclusive name for Jesus... It simply means anointed.... Jewish priests were called messiah for instance and many people were called messiah (anointed) in the bible. So you have two people bearing names Jesus could have used... That is the interesting point.

It looks like you didn't read the whole thing i wrote.

This is pure conspiracy and adding meaning to what was NOT written, even if Jesus Barabas was written the text very CLEARLY says that Jesus the christ(messiah) was the one that was crucified. . .How you are trying to give your conspiracy the life of your own is what is totally beyond me. . .Even if Jesus Barabas was written the text very cleary states that Jesus the christ was the one that was crucified. . .

Our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned in the Bible is different from the Prophet Jesus named in the Quran.
The birth, life and death of our Lord Jesus Christ has been prophesied hundred of years before He actually came to live among His brethen.

I think our moslem brothers should try and understand this - they should stop all attempts at making any comparison between the two.

mazaje:
This is pure conspiracy and adding meaning to what was NOT written, even if Jesus Barabas was written the text very CLEARLY says that Jesus the christ(messiah) was the one that was crucified. . .How you are trying to give your conspiracy the life of your own is what is totally beyond me. . .Even if Jesus Barabas was written the text very cleary states that Jesus the christ was the one that was crucified. . .

I think you are being a tad bit dishonest.... i am beginning to suspect you r an undercover christian. Bible translators did not translate barabbas.. It does not mean that it is not there. This is from wikipedia

Barabbas' name appears as bar-Abbas in the Greek texts. It is derived ultimately from the Aramaic בר-אבא, Bar-abbâ, "son of the father". According to early Greek texts, Barabbas' full name was Jesus Barabbas.[14] Later texts shorten his name to just Barabbas.

Abba has been found as a personal name in a 1st-century burial at Giv'at ja-Mivtar, and Abba also appears as a personal name frequently in the Gemara section of the Talmud, dating from AD 200–400.[15] These findings support "Barabbas" being used to indicate the son of a person named Abba or Abbas (a patronymic).

Abba means "father" in Aramaic, and appears both translated and untranslated in the Gospels. A translation of Bar-Abbas would be son of the father. Jesus often referred to God as "father", and Jesus' use of the Aramaic word Abba survives untranslated in Mark 14:36 (in most English translations). This has led some authors (named below) to speculate that "bar-Abbâ" could actually be a reference to Jesus himself as "son of the father".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas

Fine Jesus who was called messiah was crucified... You seem to be of the impression that messiah is some kind of exclusive name.... Christ is just a greek interpretation of messiah.... So lets see some of the many people called messiah.

In Isa. xlv. 1 Cyrus is called "God's anointed one," because God has called him and given him victory after victory for the distinct purpose of putting an end to the Babylonian kingdom and the worship of idols, of setting free exiled Israel, and thus introducing the new era of God's universal dominion. In Ps. cv. 15 the Patriarchs are called "God's anointed ones" because they are under the special protection of God and therefore inviolable. Finally, in Hab. iii. 13, Ps. xxviii. 8, lxxxiv. 10 (A. V.9), and possibly in lxxxix. 39, 52 (A. V. 38, 51), the title is applied to Israel, God's chosen people. (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah)

So someone called Jesus the messiah is not necessarily Jesus , the son of mary.... We had two choices...

Jesus the son of the father
Jesus the anointed.

Both names can be used for Jesus.... one was crucified.... Who was it? Was there a mistaken identity? Was Jesus, the son of Mary let go?

I am just putting it out there, it is pretty straight forward...

vedaxcool:

Well your simple question is a FOOLISH question in all aspects, as how does it address what I wrote? If you can point to how it address what I wrote then you might get an answer (being that a foolish answer to this question won't be accepted). this atheists can never get it right even when simple common sense is just required and then they deceive themselves that they have answered more complex questions? What a pity, I see alice in wonder land in this people.

vedaxcool: Some atheists will never be well? And it is not a curse it is just the statement of things we observe, like imagine a topic is about the allege crucifixion and someone hair brain is interpreting the topic to be about muhammad pbuh and his wives, it is little wonder why atheism by frustration and for frustration best describe this anomaly! .

Do humanity a favour by growing balls and going back to school....

^
Likewise do the universe a great favor by growing some brain and putting it to good use . . . At the very least children even know you do not need balls to go to school so you words hardly differ from the drunken banter of beer parlor talk . When is NL going to find genuine atheists? I suggest seun puts up an advert seeking genuine atheists who think they can address issues rationally !

tbaba1234:

I think you are being a tad bit dishonest.... i am beginning to suspect you r an undercover christian. Bible translators did not translate barabbas.. It does not mean that it is not there. This is from wikipedia

Barabbas' name appears as bar-Abbas in the Greek texts. It is derived ultimately from the Aramaic בר-אבא, Bar-abbâ, "son of the father". According to early Greek texts, Barabbas' full name was Jesus Barabbas.[14] Later texts shorten his name to just Barabbas.

Abba has been found as a personal name in a 1st-century burial at Giv'at ja-Mivtar, and Abba also appears as a personal name frequently in the Gemara section of the Talmud, dating from AD 200–400.[15] These findings support "Barabbas" being used to indicate the son of a person named Abba or Abbas (a patronymic).

Abba means "father" in Aramaic, and appears both translated and untranslated in the Gospels. A translation of Bar-Abbas would be son of the father. Jesus often referred to God as "father", and Jesus' use of the Aramaic word Abba survives untranslated in Mark 14:36 (in most English translations). This has led some authors (named below) to speculate that "bar-Abbâ" could actually be a reference to Jesus himself as "son of the father".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas

Fine Jesus who was called messiah was crucified... You seem to be of the impression that messiah is some kind of exclusive name.... Christ is just a greek interpretation of messiah.... So lets see some of the many people called messiah.

In Isa. xlv. 1 Cyrus is called "God's anointed one," because God has called him and given him victory after victory for the distinct purpose of putting an end to the Babylonian kingdom and the worship of idols, of setting free exiled Israel, and thus introducing the new era of God's universal dominion. In Ps. cv. 15 the Patriarchs are called "God's anointed ones" because they are under the special protection of God and therefore inviolable. Finally, in Hab. iii. 13, Ps. xxviii. 8, lxxxiv. 10 (A. V.9), and possibly in lxxxix. 39, 52 (A. V. 38, 51), the title is applied to Israel, God's chosen people. (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah)

So someone called Jesus the messiah is not necessarily Jesus , the son of mary.... We had two choices...

Jesus the son of the father
Jesus the anointed.

Both names can be used for Jesus.... one was crucified.... Who was it? Was there a mistaken identity? Was Jesus, the son of Mary let go?

I am just putting it out there, it is pretty straight forward...

You are just being a dishonest liar. . .Where in the bible was Jesus ever addressed as Jesus son of Mary you liar?. . .I am not a christian but I can not stand you silly dishonesty and very cheap lies. . .Who do you think you are deluding with your very cheap tricks?. . Where was Jesus ever addressed as Jesus son of Mary in the bible?. . .Even if we go with Jesus Barabas, the Jesus of the bible was known as Jesus the christ and not son of Mary and according to the story Jesus the christ was the one that was crucified, No body ever addressed him as Jesus son of Mary according to the biblical story. . Jesus Barabas was set free according to the story and Jesus the christ was crucified. . .Jesus the son of Mary is your own making, People do not answer their mothers name but their fathers name, you can never hear people being addressed as Jesus son of Mary, people are addressed by their father's name, like Jesus son of Joseph not jesus son of mary so stop lying.. .. . .The text very clearly say that Jesus the christ was the one that was crucified, it also goes on to say that he was the one that was raised from the dead. . .Even the people saw that he was the one that was crucified according to the story, how you keep dwelling on your own personal/ islamic fantasies is what is really mind boggling. . .

vedaxcool: ^
Likewise do the universe a great favor by growing some brain and putting it to good use . . . At the very least children even know you do not need balls to go to school so you words hardly differ from the drunken banter of beer parlor talk . When is NL going to find genuine atheists? I suggest seun puts up an advert seeking genuine atheists who think they can address issues rationally !

Keep trolling, Hypocrite. You call yourself a muslim yet you insult people like a football hooligan.

vedaxcool: ^
Likewise do the universe a great favor by growing some brain and putting it to good use . . . At the very least children even know you do not need balls to go to school so you words hardly differ from the drunken banter of beer parlor talk . When is NL going to find genuine atheists? I suggest seun puts up an advert seeking genuine atheists who think they can address issues rationally !

is that all?

logicboy:


Thank you, furthermore, Tbaba is a coward that avoids threads that have factual criticism of his religion and then comes here to bash christianity.

Tbaba and Islam are jokes, they copy the christian and Jewish religion and then claim that their religion is the true religion. Jesus was born a jew and lived around jews in a time that there werent Arabs or muslims in Jerusalem.



Keep avoiding threads on islam, Tbaba;
https://www.nairaland.com/945273/pakistan-banning-twitter-censorship

https://www.nairaland.com/943454/things-they-wont-tell-you

muslims acknowledge the genealogy of jesus..the point he is trying to make is quite clear...
It isn't about seeking validation, it is about spreading information. Those who seek validation are those uncertain of their faith. I am more than convinced about my faith so i do not need validation of anything but many christians are not aware of these possibilities. They are unaware of their history for the most part. Those who become aware, ask more questions.

The faiths are linked whether you like it or not. Muslims accept Jesus (AS) as a righteous prophet of God... We have fundamental differences in our beliefs.. one of those differences is the crucifixion... like i showed, It looks like the earliest manuscripts offer us clues as to what might have happened if we accept the muslim view. I just threw something out there: two men called Jesus were up for crucifixion... one was released... whether or not this was the way Jesus was saved is still up in the air..

It is all from the christian text...

justaqad:

muslims acknowledge the genealogy of jesus..the point he is trying to make is quite clear...

Muslims follow a different Jesus called ISA, nothing like the Jesus of the bible.

Muslims accept Jesus (AS) as a righteous prophet of God..

Obviously not the Jesus of the bible.

We have fundamental differences in our beliefs.. one of those differences is the crucifixion... like i showed, It looks like the earliest manuscripts offer us clues as to what might have happened if we accept the muslim view. I just threw something out there: two men called Jesus were up for crucifixion... one was released... whether or not this was the way Jesus was saved is still up in the air.

Provide concrete historical evidence to prove your point.

Jesus was crucified, he rose again and one day , you and your Muhammad will bow at his feet - Fact !!

justaqad:

muslims acknowledge the genealogy of jesus..the point he is trying to make is quite clear...
It isn't about seeking validation, it is about spreading information. Those who seek validation are those uncertain of their faith. I am more than convinced about my faith so i do not need validation of anything but many christians are not aware of these possibilities. They are unaware of their history for the most part. Those who become aware, ask more questions.

The faiths are linked whether you like it or not. Muslims accept Jesus (AS) as a righteous prophet of God... We have fundamental differences in our beliefs.. one of those differences is the crucifixion... like i showed, It looks like the earliest manuscripts offer us clues as to what might have happened if we accept the muslim view. I just threw something out there: two men called Jesus were up for crucifixion... one was released... whether or not this was the way Jesus was saved is still up in the air..

It is all from the christian text...

I am not a christian and I dont care if Jesus was crucified or not. However, it is a lie to claim that Jesus was a muslim. Someone who ven talked about reforming Jewish holy laws and was a Jew. Islam is free to claim Jesus as a prophet but he was never a muslim. That is a lie.

mazaje:

You are just being a dishonest liar. . .Where in the bible was Jesus ever addressed as Jesus son of Mary you liar?. . .I am not a christian but I can not stand you silly dishonesty and very cheap lies. . .Who do you think you are deluding with your very cheap tricks?. . Where was Jesus ever addressed as Jesus son of Mary in the bible?. . .Even if we go with Jesus Barabas, the Jesus of the bible was known as Jesus the christ and not son of Mary and according to the story Jesus the christ was the one that was crucified, No body ever addressed him as Jesus son of Mary according to the biblical story. . Jesus Barabas was set free according to the story and Jesus the christ was crucified. . .Jesus the son of Mary is your own making, People do not answer their mothers name but their fathers name, you can never hear people being addressed as Jesus son of Mary, people are addressed by their father's name, like Jesus son of Joseph not jesus son of mary so stop lying.. .. . .The text very clearly say that Jesus the christ was the one that was crucified, it also goes on to say that he was the one that was raised from the dead. . .Even the people saw that he was the one that was crucified according to the story, how you keep dwelling on your own personal/ islamic fantasies is what is really mind boggling. . .

This is silly,

Was the Jesus that was crucified , the son of mary? that is the Question? Are you denying that Jesus mother was Mary? Muslims and christian agree that Jesus was born without a father. I do not understand your problem here.

I don't get this tirade... The point is clear for anyone who can reason.... Who are the people that saw the crucifixion? We know the disciples were not there..... they were not witnesses...Apart from what we have in the new testament. There are no 'eye-witness' accounts....

The point is pretty straightforward;

Jesus the son of the father
Jesus that was called messiah

One was crucified, was it the right one? (since you do not want me to use 'son of mary" to differentiate them).

Simple point... na wa o!

tbaba1234: I don't get this tirade... The point is clear for anyone who can reason.... Who are the people that saw the crucifixion? We know the disciples were not there..... they were not witnesses...Apart from what we have in the new testament. There are no 'eye-witness' accounts....

John was there with the Mother of Jesus, please read up the facts !!!

John 19:26-27 (King James Version)

"When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home."

The disciple whom Jesus loved was specifically known to be John. So we can say categorically that at least that disciple was explicitly named as being present.

The point is pretty straightforward;

Not really.

Jesus the son of the father
Jesus that was called messiah

How can you understand the deep things of God when you do not have the Spirit of GOD.

"but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God." - 1 Corinthians 2:10

Your wisdom is carnal and a total waste of time.

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness";" - 1 Corinthians 3:19

One was crucified, was it the right one? (since you do not want me to use 'son of mary" to differentiate them).

And how do you know

Confusion galore.



My Muhammedian pal , na wah for you oooo