DaRapture: The TIV where the first to exist in the lands in which now make up the nation of Nigeria.

I'm not too sure about that, Nok people? Where did you get that information about the TIV?

Fulaman198:

I'm not too sure about that, Nok people? Where did you get that information about the TIV?

Well you've answered your own question in a way. The Tiv are direct descendants of the people who established the Nok civilization.

DaRapture:

Well you've answered your own question in a way. The Tiv are direct descendants of the people who established the Nok civilization.

Some of the stuff you post is just really off base sometimes.

The Tiv claim to have come to Nigeria most recently (17th century or thereabout) and if they were here much earlier, there's no evidence that they were here earlier than other groups.

The Nok culture has been associated with the Ham people (Ham is the name of the ethnic group) of Northern Nigeria by Bernard Fagg who studied Nok art and some nearby peoples. Frank Willett conjectured that there may have been a connection between Nok art and Ife art and that's about it. The Tiv have their own quite distinct art.

PhysicsQED:



Some of the stuff you post is just really off base sometimes.

The Tiv claim to have come to Nigeria most recently (17th century or thereabout) and if they were here much earlier, there's no evidence that they were here earlier than other groups.

The Nok culture has been associated with the Ham people (Ham is the name of the ethnic group) of Northern Nigeria by Bernard Fagg who studied Nok art and some nearby peoples. Frank Willett conjectured that there may have been a connection between Nok art and Ife art and that's about it. The Tiv have their own quite distinct art.

Thank you for your contributions as always PhysicsQED

Ileke-IdI:


I already corrected it, woman.

Check the posts after that.

Every culture has a conceptualized Adam/Eve.

I asked you to bring forth your Source about Saudia Arabia and Yoruba correlation. Where is it?

Why should I bring forth something I never agreed to, you don't get my point - I am of the opinion that the Yorubas were descendants of the Yoruba deities. Odua been the most prominent.

I wonder where my hausa forebears were from.

Btw, is there any thread discussing the origins of the various nigerian tribes in depth?

Leave out hausa, yoruba and maybe igbo.

I mean the other ones.

PhysicsQED:



Some of the stuff you post is just really off base sometimes.

The Tiv claim to have come to Nigeria most recently (17th century or thereabout) and if they were here much earlier, there's no evidence that they were here earlier than other groups.

The Nok culture has been associated with the Ham people (Ham is the name of the ethnic group) of Northern Nigeria by Bernard Fagg who studied Nok art and some nearby peoples. Frank Willett conjectured that there may have been a connection between Nok art and Ife art and that's about it. The Tiv have their own quite distinct art.

He say, she say. What some Tiv dreamers claim to be is highly unlikely and there is evidence of that, and I once spoke about it while posting on another Nigerian forum years back. Now I do admit my mistake for stating my beliefs as facts in regard to the Tiv/Nok connection. But I believe its credible.

tpia@:
I wonder where my hausa forebears were from.

Mali, in the area of the town Gao.

DaRapture:

He say, she say. What some Tiv dreamers claim to be is highly unlikely and there is evidence of that, and I once spoke about it while posting on another Nigerian forum years back. Now I do admit my mistake for stating my beliefs as facts in regard to the Tiv/Nok connection. But I believe its credible.

Ah, so you believe a Tiv/Nok connection is credible based on your own assertions, but you don't believe what the Tiv say about themselves because it's also an assertion.

Good job mutilating logic there buddy.

My belief is that the Tiv came from Cameroon in more recent times, but I don't ascribe some instant credibility to that belief for no reason. For all I know, they could have been somewhere even further east than Cameroon thousands of years ago.

PhysicsQED:

Ah, so you believe a Tiv/Nok connection is credible based on your own assertions, but you don't believe what the Tiv say about themselves because it's also an assertion.

Good job mutilating logic there buddy.

My belief is that the Tiv came from Cameroon in more recent times, but I don't ascribe some instant credibility to that belief for no reason. For all I know, they could have been somewhere even further east than Cameroon thousands of years ago.

Could be, but because they've never documented their history, what they say is essentially hearsay and thus I say it's all up for debate.

Blyss:

Could be, but because they've never documented their history, what they say is essentially hearsay and thus I say it's all up for debate.

If there was a 1600 AD Tiv document that made claims about where they were in 1200 BC, would you automatically believe it?

PhysicsQED:

If there was a 1600 AD Tiv document that made claims about where they were in 1200 BC, would you automatically believe it?

Not really, considering that I don't even take most of what the Bible says as the truth of what really went down in the issues it addresses, because for thousands of years prior to it being created most of that was hearsay as well, and a simple childhood game of Telephone can easily display the credibility of, or lack there of of such word of mouth information over even a short period of time.

Though, going back to your original question, I certainly would be more likely to believe an 1600 AD Tiv document, in which would of been ultimately based on 1600 AD hearsay detailing their lineage.. over hearsay passed around today, for the simple fact of that the closer the hearsay is to the actual time of the incident in which the hearsay speaks of, the more likely it is to be accurate hearsay. Time is the ultimate killer of History.

ghostofsparta:

Why should I bring forth something I never agreed to, you don't get my point - I am of the opinion that the Yorubas were descendants of the Yoruba deities. Odua been the most prominent.

I feel the yoruba descended from the Nok: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nok_culture

anonymous6:

I feel the yoruba descended from the Nok: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nok_culture

I disagree. Highly improbable.

Blyss:

I disagree. Highly improbable.

I guess you and me have to agree to disagree because I think differently and agree with the link

odumchi: I think that most southern Nigerian groups branched out of a single ancestral ethnic group. I came about this theory by analyzing the population of certain groups. For example, a hundred years ago, the Igbo were about five million in population; today they are around forty million. If a mere hundred years meant a growth of thirty five miillion then what could have been our population two thousand years ago? Certainly too negligible to form an independent social group.

I don't believe you can rightly use the population growth of the past century to make any assertions about the past two thousand years, since the growth of this past century is owed to the acute onset of industrialization. Before industrialization, things remained relatively the same for centuries. So I wouldn't be surprised if the population also remained relatively steady for centuries, rather than declining to a number that would have been too negligible.

ChinenyeN:
I don't believe you can rightly use the population growth of the past century to make any assertions about the past two thousand years, since the growth of this past century is owed to the acute onset of industrialization. Before industrialization, things remained relatively the same for centuries. So I wouldn't be surprised if the population also remained relatively steady for centuries, rather than declining to a number that would have been too negligible.

It's obvious that the population growth rate of Africa after its contact with Europeans is not the same as that before contact. However, Africa's population has not remained stagnant since the first century ce therefore the population of the Igbo (or any ither ethnic group) couldn't have been stagnant since then. In 1 ce, the world had anywhere between 100 million to 300 million people. Africa's population in that period was less than that of Europe and Asia due to the lack of "modern" farming technologies, therefore supposing the world population was 200 million, Africa would've had around 30 million people (these are all rough guesstimates). The Igbo alone couldn't have made up 16 percent of Africa.

Alright.

What does "from Nigeria" even mean.

Presumably at some point far in the past, the land mass known as Nigeria did not have any human beings. If this is true, then all of us are from somewhere else.

Same is probably true for most countries on the earth...aside from whichever place humans first originated.

So, how are you defining "from"? 1000 years of residency? 5,000? 10,000?

odumchi:

Exactly. However, the sad part is that some of our cultural leaders are beginning to buy into these absurd theories of Middle-Eastern origin.

I think that most southern Nigerian groups branched out of a single ancestral ethnic group. I came about this theory by analyzing the population of certain groups. For example, a hundred years ago, the Igbo were about five million in population; today they are around forty million. If a mere hundred years meant a growth of thirty five miillion then what could have been our population two thousand years ago? Certainly too negligible to form an independent social group.

The Nri Kingdom (which was the first recorded kingdom in southern Nigeria and the first Igbo state) was founded sometime around the year 900 ce and it is given credit (by some) as the "father of the Igbo". This means that the peoples that identify themselves as the Igbo are only a bit older than a thousand years.

This has led me to conclude that a millenia ago, we were probably all members of a larger ethnic group that settled in central Nigeria.

Your assertion is faulty to an extent. You can't use the growth of the Igbo people in the last 100 years to make a definite statement like "too negligible to form an independent social group". Population of a country, if birth control is not in place, tend to explode as they get larger tending from arithmetic progression to geometric progression. For instance, India could double its population in just 20 years while Nigeria could record only a 30% growth in the same 20 years span.

Greeks are a known ethnic group and have been around for so long yet Greece population is a mere 11 million.

If southern ethnic groups were one ethnic group before, then the time they split would be close to the time humans started evolving on earth.

No tribe in present day Nigeria is from Nigeria... No tribe is from West Africa...

Obiagu1:

Your assertion is faulty to an extent. You can't use the growth of the Igbo people in the last 100 years to make a definite statement like "too negligible to form an independent social group". Population of a country, if birth control is not in place, tend to explode as they get larger tending from arithmetic progression to geometric progression. For instance, India could double its population in just 20 years while Nigeria could record only a 30% growth in the same 20 years span.

Greeks are a known ethnic group and have been around for so long yet Greece population is a mere 11 million.

If southern ethnic groups were one ethnic group before, then the time they split would be close to the time humans started evolving on earth.

I understand what you're trying to say but remember:

Greece's topography can't support a large population. Due to this, the Greeks have always had to leave Greece and settle in foreign lands/colonies which include the areas that now make up: Spain, France, Italy, Egypt, Libya, Turkey, Bulgaria, Syria, Lebanon, and etc. If the worldwide Greek diaspora were counted today (including those with Greek heritage) it would've produced a large number.

The Hebrew people's situation is also similar. By 1 ce, Palestine had an estimated 1 million people. If this population had been allowed to grow uninterrupted by the various wars, genocides, invasions, and dispersions that have affected the Hebrew people since then, the Hebrew population would've been much larger than it is now (that is if the land's population capacity hadn't been reached).

Time means a general increase in population which is supplemented by "modern" farming technologies. If a particular population is left uninterrupted for several years, then that population will most definitely grow and reach the population capacity of the land which it dwells upon. However, even of a group is ancient (as in the case of the Greeks and Hebrews), constant warfare, migration, famine, disease, and dispersion will have an effect on its population.

The Igbo, as far as I know, haven't experienced anything major prior to the advent of the Europeans. Therefore, their population has been allowed to grow steadily. However, this topic is very difficult to discuss in the Igbo perspective since not all Igbo subgroups claim common origin.

@ Obiagu

In order to supplement to what I wrote earlier, I'd like to add this:

Any simple event can be responsible for the formation of an entirely new ethnic group or race. Who knows? Maybe two thousand years ago, after chasing a pack of wild boar for several days, a group of brothers decided to split and head off in different directions; one to the east, the other to the west. The brother that went eastward could've been responsible for the founding of the Igala and the other: the Nupe.

DaRapture:

Mali, in the area of the town Gao.

Gao is a Songhai town, the Hausa are not from Mali, but from near Chad/Sudan

Fulaman198:

Gao is a Songhai town, the Hausa are not from Mali, but from near Chad/Sudan

[size=20pt]
^^^^^^^^^^^alIenS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^[/size]

Ybutterfly:


[size=20pt]
^^^^^^^^^^^alIenS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^[/size]

Who isn't in Nigeria?

Fulaman198:

Who isn't in Nigeria?

LOOOOOOl ^^^^^yOu aRRE riGHt^^^^^^

odumchi: @ Obiagu

In order to supplement to what I wrote earlier, I'd like to add this:

Any simple event can be responsible for the formation of an entirely new ethnic group or race. Who knows? Maybe two thousand years ago, after chasing a pack of wild boar for several days, a group of brothers decided to split and head off in different directions; one to the east, the other to the west. The brother that went eastward could've been responsible for the founding of the Igala and the other: the Nupe.

interesting theory but im interested in what happened next. did the brothers mate with the wild boar and form Igbo. where did they get the women. now this puts things into perspective.

PAGAN 9JA:
Everyday we hear about Yorubas claiming descent from Makkah in Saudi Arabia, Igbos claiming descent from Jews of Israel, Hausa claiming descent from Baghdad (Iraq), kanuri came from Yemen, etc.

[size=32pt]So who is actually from NIGERIA[/size]

@RED

LMAO!

PAGAN 9JA:


interesting theory but im interested in what happened next. did the brothers mate with the wild boar and form Igbo. where did they get the women. now this puts things into perspective.

Well, he would've reproduced with his own family and with any indigenes he would've found.

odumchi:

Well, he would've reproduced with his own family and with any indigenes he would've found.

ah a hermaphrodite! good. now i know what my next topic will be. .