For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30

For sometime now we have been arguing back and forth with atheists, agnostics, muslims e.t.c. and frankly I am quite wearied by it. Perhaps now we should look a bit into the bible and discuss about freewill and predestination.

There are two major schools of thought on this;

1. The Calvinist: The Calvinist basically believes that because of the fall, man is totally depraved and unable to save himself but that God from the beginning has chosen the people who will be saved. These elect will not be able to resist God's grace even if they try.

2. The Arminian: The Arminian believes also that man is depraved because of the fall but that one can come to Christ by rational faith i.e. that people exercises their freewill to get saved. The Arminian also holds that the Holy Spirit can be effectually resisted.

These are just the basics of the two schools of thought.
To get more information on these, you may want to look up the following:

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

Please before anything, The bible is our final authority. Let us delve into this and God willing we may discover the nature of God's loving grace towards us.

Tell us which of the schools of thought you lean towards and why.

* hmmm, interesting topic, since the bible is not my authority, let me grab my popcorn, sit down, watch and probably learn*

@Annoy
Ur reference scripture is from one translation.
Unless u are saying that the word "destiny" is a greek word.
Do all translators accept that the word use there should be predestination?

"For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."- 1 Corinthians 2:2

They were men and subject to error.

I follow neither, Jesus is my model and scripture is the standard not the personal and often flawed interpretations of men !

truthislight: @Annoy
Ur reference scripture is from one translation.
Unless u are saying that the word "destiny" is a greek work.
Do all translators accept that the word use there should be predestination?

Lol, @ Annoy.
Work never start, you don begin dey use greek translation already. lol.

frosbel: "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."- 1 Corinthians 2:2

They were men and subject to error.

I follow neither, Jesus is my model and scripture is the standard not the personal and often flawed interpretations of men !

Brother mi, that is what I want us to discuss. I am not in the least suggesting another gospel.
We are neither calvinist nor arminian, we are christians.
Perhaps I should change the topic to something more fitting by which we can discuss the nature of God's grace towards us. Please don't walk away.

How does one change topic sef?

Mr_Anony:
How does one change topic sef?

pls teach me if you know, i've been looking for that function for long. thanxx in advance. enjoy your breadbreaking.
cheers

cyrexx:

pls teach me if you know, i've been looking for that function for long. thanxx in advance. enjoy your breadbreaking.
cheers

I just did o! try modifying the very first post

Mr_Anony:
I just did o! try modifying the very first post

chei, i tried it and it worked.
knowledge is good o.
i thot it is impossible, thanx a lot, man,


i'm still cruching my popcorn, waiting for christian's views on this issue of destiny and freewill

cyrexx:

chei, i tried it and it worked.
knowledge is good o.
i thot it is impossible, thanx a lot, man,


i'm still cruching my popcorn, waiting for christian's views on this issue of destiny and freewill

No wahala. I still dey wait my brothers sha.

Romans8:29:30. A diff translation.

Vas 23.
"Because those he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his son, that he might be the first born among many brothers

Vas30
Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called, and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteouse.
Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified".

I dont think that the repeat use of the word destined is allowing for a clearer understanding of that Romans.
In the Op.

To me, people being destined for salvation makes rubbish of the order by christ to go and preach to people of all nations.
And make rubbish of Justice and freewill.

What sense is there in preaching to people that where not chosen to be save?

That scripture is refering to those that are mention in Revelation 20:5,6 as having part in the first resurrecting, over this the second dead has no authority.
Why? Because they are with christ in heaven.

Those people are diff from the ones mention in Revelation 20:11 to 13. If u like call it the 2nd resurrection.

So, those of Romans 8:29,30 are same at Revel 20:5,6.

All human have a chance of being save, it is an individual choice.

But those that fall into Romans 8:29,30 are ones that will have the privilege that God has foreordained for his son, that they be fashion like the son(Jesus)

Some word choice in some translating is to give credence to this tag as saint.

If they were destined how come that the bible says that let him that thinks he is standing be ware that he does not fall?
If they have been destined how can they fall?

However, God approval of an individual has to do with the persons heart conditions. Isaiah 5:20 or u can say pure in heart.

So, we can also look at the foreordained in terms as a fixed Number to be fashion like the son.
Eg. A company needs to employ 20 people. Then, it can be said:
"this are the 20 people you wanted"
(it is not a reference to the individual but to the predetermined nos 20)
Revelation 14:3
Peace

well your choices are yours but your goings are the lords. proverbs 20 vs 24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

with regards to the elect. there are two partitions under the sun ( earth ). the two partitions are ISRAELITES and GENTILES. the first part of the partition has had their turn to prove themselves and the ones who followed the laws to the best of their abilities and studied to show themselves approved were chosen as the elect while the rest of the israelites were thrown into spiritual darkness. they will remain in this darkness till christ returns ( romans 11 vs 25 ). however the elect will be spiritually alive till christ returns and when they get reincarnated with each life they get to be spiritually alive. like if a baby is born and the soul in him is the soul of the elect, the lord will guide his steps to the point where he will recieve remembrance of who he is as an elect member of the lords kingdom.

the gentile part of the partition is now in their salvation ( romans 11 vs 11 ). this is their chance to show themselves worthy to the lord. this is their era. as such the gentiles dont have an elect yet amongst them because they only got written into the law with the new testament. so this is their era to prove that they are worthy of election.

so with regards to your question, are the elects predetermined ? the elect of israel has been predetermined but not the elect for the gentiles. the elect of the gentiles will be determined when christ returns.

^^
Jewish racism, reincarnation..

Men, what the hell have you been smoking.

Who or what are you.

jews first. then gentiles.

ROMANS 1 VS 16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

buzugee: well your choices are yours but your goings are the lords. proverbs 20 vs 24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

with regards to the elect. there are two partitions under the sun ( earth ). the two partitions are ISRAELITES and GENTILES. the first part of the partition has had their turn to prove themselves and the ones who followed the laws to the best of their abilities and studied to show themselves approved were chosen as the elect while the rest of the israelites were thrown into spiritual darkness. they will remain in this darkness till christ returns ( romans 11 vs 25 ). however the elect will be spiritually alive till christ returns and when they get reincarnated with each life they get to be spiritually alive. like if a baby is born and the soul in him is the soul of the elect, the lord will guide his steps to the point where he will recieve remembrance of who he is as an elect member of the lords kingdom.

the gentile part of the partition is now in their salvation ( romans 11 vs 11 ). this is their chance to show themselves worthy to the lord. this is their era. as such the gentiles dont have an elect yet amongst them because they only got written into the law with the new testament. so this is their era to prove that they are worthy of election.

so with regards to your question, are the elects predetermined ? the elect of israel has been predetermined but not the elect for the gentiles. the elect of the gentiles will be determined when christ returns.

This guy is Xter. Very funny.

He quotes scriptures alot, sometimes makes sense some times he gets it completely wrong.
The scriptures just quoted may apply but not on this thread, and this topic.

Guy, take it easy.
Lol.
It a public forum anyway. Anything goes.

there is nothing like predestination.its a whole load of bull

Glad I got here at last. I don't lean either way, bro. But I have an understanding concerning it. But before I set about it, I wish to say that it really is a dangerous issue to handle therefore I might at some points refrain from dealing with matters that crop up relating to it.

Our Father is omniscient. That means He knew before He even set about creation those who were His. Did He somehow mark them in order to know them or know them and therefore mark them? Hehe...not important. As far as I know, if God chose to save some and not others, it's entirely His prerogative. If He chose to save everyone, His prerogative too.

However, I think that He chose before time such as would be saved. He, to use a provocative word, destined some to salvation and not others. But to safeguard that, I must go on to say that God never handed out a list telling any of us, "only such and such among you shall be saved", no. So even if He did mark some people out for Himself, only He knows who they are. We don't.

How does that affect us? Well, in a sense it doesn't. We weren't told that only these people and not those will be saved. But we were certainly told that "if any man will..." he will be saved. As far as we know, from our own end, it's a question of choice. If we want to be saved, we will be. That simple. If we don't we won't be. Period.

How does predestination enter it from Father's end? I am really very afraid to say it so that those among us who are easily beguiled will not get caught in a snare. But perhaps I will brave it and trust them to the Lord. Predestination enters by grace. All of us without exception are sold under sin. We both do not know how to be free nor do we want to be free. This is our default state. For any of us to start reaching for God, something extraordinary has to happen to us. That stirring, that hunger that awakens us to more is God's grace at work to set us after Him.

But my observation is that it is only one part of the whole matter. Some will take hold of that grace and go on to know salvation. Others will trod it underfoot and pick a fight with God for waking them to their need for Him. What it is that sets one apart from the other is hard for me to say, but I dare to think it's further grace. How we respond to the first outpouring of grace determines how much more we receive.

From childhood, I spent 21yrs trying to be a Christian. Read everything I could, behaved as well as I could, answered all the altar calls, fought all of Christ's battles (lol, really?) and all that, but shortly before my 21st birthday, I was tired and weary. Told God then to either save me Himself or leave me well enough alone to be whatever I wanted. Even though I said that, I told Him I really wanted to be His, but that I'd exhausted all my know-how and energy on the matter and had got nowhere so I didn't wanna try again. If I really was gonna get saved, it was gonna have to be Him entirely, with no help from me. I quit trying and essentially planned my life along the line of a hopeless sinner, but 11 days before my 21st birthday God broke in and I got born anew.

Was there input from me? Yeah. I'd decided not to ever again attend a Christian gathering because I knew so much scripture and was prone to debate, so if I went the assumption would be that I was a Christian too and all that moral burden would fall on me again. But the day I got saved, I found myself walking to the venue of a gathering of believers. I was way too early because I hadn't even intended to come so I hadn't tried to find out the time for the meeting. Seated there about a full hour before the meeting started, something switched on inside and I knew my Father'd found me. Have lived in that since then. Been in a number of crazy places since but never once worried that He'd left me.

I told the story to show that perhaps I was marked, I don't know, but I certainly wanted God and tried every way I knew how to get Him...and failed. But once He took hold of my own reaching hand, everything became perfect. So, as much as He predestinates we ourselves must choose. And like I tell my brothers and sisters, if you say you don't think you have the grace, well, ask for it, and if you lack grace for that, ask for grace to ask for grace. Grace reaches further back than our need goes.

Father has probably marked some people, at least, I think the Scriptures say so, but He also says that anyone who wants will have. And since we don't know whether or not we're marked, we should as much as possible reach for what He offers. It'd be against His character to refuse us.

That's my take.

cyrexx: ^^
Jewish racism, reincarnation..

Men, what the hell have you been smoking.

Who or what are you.

your worst nightmare. the constant reminder of what a reprobate you are

truthislight:
This guy is Xter. Very funny.

He quotes scriptures alot, sometimes makes sense some times he gets it completely wrong.
The scriptures just quoted may apply but not on this thread, and this topic.

Guy, take it easy.
Lol.
It a public forum anyway. Anything goes.

that dusty book lying in your cupboard that has the spelling B -I B-L-E on it, try cracking it open once in a while and actually reading it instead of looking at the pictures.

truthislight:
This guy is Xter. Very funny.

He quotes scriptures alot, sometimes makes sense some times he gets it completely wrong.
The scriptures just quoted may apply but not on this thread, and this topic.

Guy, take it easy.
Lol.
It a public forum anyway. Anything goes.

triple post

truthislight:
This guy is Xter. Very funny.

He quotes scriptures alot, sometimes makes sense some times he gets it completely wrong.
The scriptures just quoted may apply but not on this thread, and this topic.

Guy, take it easy.
Lol.
It a public forum anyway. Anything goes.

triple post

truthislight:

There are others that wish u add other translations.

I just red a translation that start like this:
Because those he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his son, that he might be the first born among many...

So, if we have other scriptural translation one can then say which is consistent with the scriptures.

Right now to me its like u are asking me to disprove that scriptures.
What if it is word choice issues?
How can i do that!

Oga mi, I am not asking you to disprove scripture, far be it from you. All I want us to have is an honest discussion on the nature of grace: freewill and destiny. The verse I quoted is for reference and is not much else. Let's not focus so much on individual words that we miss the story.

buzugee: well your choices are yours but your goings are the lords. proverbs 20 vs 24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

with regards to the elect. there are two partitions under the sun ( earth ). the two partitions are ISRAELITES and GENTILES. the first part of the partition has had their turn to prove themselves and the ones who followed the laws to the best of their abilities and studied to show themselves approved were chosen as the elect while the rest of the israelites were thrown into spiritual darkness. they will remain in this darkness till christ returns ( romans 11 vs 25 ). however the elect will be spiritually alive till christ returns and when they get reincarnated with each life they get to be spiritually alive. like if a baby is born and the soul in him is the soul of the elect, the lord will guide his steps to the point where he will recieve remembrance of who he is as an elect member of the lords kingdom.

the gentile part of the partition is now in their salvation ( romans 11 vs 11 ). this is their chance to show themselves worthy to the lord. this is their era. as such the gentiles dont have an elect yet amongst them because they only got written into the law with the new testament. so this is their era to prove that they are worthy of election.

so with regards to your question, are the elects predetermined ? the elect of israel has been predetermined but not the elect for the gentiles. the elect of the gentiles will be determined when christ returns.

@buzugee, as always thanks for your insight.

Mr_Anony:
@buzugee, as always thanks for your insight.

Seriously, I thought that reincarnation part at least was weird

Ihedinobi:

Seriously, I thought that reincarnation part at least was weird

Oga, wetin you wan make I talk? E be like say you never sabi the guy. If I follow buzugee begin argue today, we go just derail the thread comot.
I don't hold his views at all but I didn't want to disagree with him neither did I agree. I no just get the guy time.
buzugee can say some very bizzare things if you engage him. At least I appreciate the fact that he cared to comment even though I don't agree with him at all.

Ihedinobi:

Seriously, I thought that reincarnation part at least was weird

you spent 21 years trying to be a christian yet you never for once saw 'reincarnation' in your bible ? you are just a reprobate and pugnacious nicca. you been put to sleep. spiritual sleep that is. read ROMANS 11 VS 7. that describes you perfectly. blinded azz nicca lol

Mr_Anony:
Oga, wetin you wan make I talk? E be like say you never sabi the guy. If I follow buzugee begin argue today, we go just derail the thread comot.
I don't hold his views at all but I didn't want to disagree with him neither did I agree. I no just get the guy time.
buzugee can say some very bizzare things if you engage him. At least I appreciate the fact that he cared to comment even though I don't agree with him at all.

seems you never agree with anything. what exactly do you agree with ? seems you have no opinions at all.

I see your point, Mr Anony...

buzugee, abeg no vex o. Na me fin trouble o.

Ihedinobi: I see your point, Mr Anony...

buzugee, abeg no vex o. Na me fin trouble o.

blinded and loquacious azz nicca. nicca you been put to sleep. time to awake from your slumber.
ROMANS 13 VS 11[b] And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.[/b]
YOU AINT GOT THAT LUXURY OF BEEING IN SLUMBER ANYMORE IHEDINOBI. TIME TO WAKE UP

buzugee: blinded and loquacious azz nicca. nicca you been put to sleep. time to awake from your slumber.
ROMANS 13 VS 11[b] And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.[/b]
YOU AINT GOT THAT LUXURY OF BEEING IN SLUMBER ANYMORE IHEDINOBI. TIME TO WAKE UP

therez this thing christians do before cracking open the bible,they ask the holy spirit to teach and instruct.you should try it

buzugee: seems you never agree with anything. what exactly do you agree with ? seems you have no opinions at all.

the guy never agrees with anything.amazes me with his wriggling skills