Mr_Anony:
You have just described a damaged universe!

How else would you describe a damaged universe other than the way you have just described the universe here? i.e. some parts are in order while other parts are not functioning properly.

Martian:

I didn't say anything about proper function or damaged universe. You asked about if I consider the universe ordered and you are just misrepresented it.

If this is a "damaged" universe, why is do you consider it damaged? What would an undamaged universe look like?........................and you still avoid answering any questions, but try not to avoid these ones.

Mr_Anony:
Dude, what more do you want me to say? If the universe is part orderly and part disorderly, then it is damaged. An undamaged universe should be perfectly orderly in every part.
If you have another definition for 'damaged', then please tell me.

Martian:

Let me clarify my pinion on "order". I think these physical laws and everything else in the universe interact and it's us who interpret those events as order or disorder.

What is perfectly ordered in every part mean?
What part do you consider damaged and how would it be different if it wasn't damaged. And why is the universe damaged anyway? What is an attribute of a perfect universe that is undamaged?

Martian:
I think that parts of the universe can be termed orderly according to human standards, and some of it can be termed disorderly according to the same standards.

Mr_Anony:
First of all, we only have a human point of view available to us (perhaps you have another point of view that is not human I don't know)
Based on this human human outlook, we can say that the universe is damaged.
Perhaps it is not damaged at all but working perfectly (we can only know this for sure if we have a vantage point where we are able to observe the entire universe in detail i.e. God's point of view)

Mr_Anony:
Now let me turn your questions back on you:
What part do you consider disorderly and how would it be different if it wasn't disorderly. And why is the universe partly disorderly anyway? What is an attribute of a universe that is completely orderly?

Martian:

Yes we only have the human point of view but WE don't say that it is damaged. At least I don't think it's damaged because I don't have any other universe to compare it to. Don't know about any god's point of view.



I clarified above that we make opinions about order and disorder based on our interpretations of what we know about the universe. As far as I know, the universe is neither ordered nor disordered because I don't have a basis of comparison. I can only say that events happen in the universe and one of the results of those events is life on this planet.

Mr_Anony:
Interesting because I put up a similar argument to Plaetton earlier namely "how can the created know what a perfect creation is?"

Ok Martian, so because of our human point of view and human interpretations, we can only observe events in the universe but we cannot recognize if the events are ordered or disordered because we really have no true contrasts for comparison.
One interesting thing to note is that your argument itself implies that human interpretation is limited in that it doesn't have enough information to truly say whether or not the universe is damaged. The question will now arise "limited in contrast to what?"

I put to you that in the same vein, with human interpretation we cannot even know if the universe exists or not or if we are indeed observing anything at all or if we even exist to start with since we don't have a "non-existent" to compare with therefore the universe (including us) neither exists or doesn't exist.
..........we now have dived into the realm of the absurd and meaningless.

Mr_Anony:
Interesting because I put up a similar argument to Plaetton earlier namely "how can the created know what a perfect creation is?"

Ok Martian, so because of our human point of view and human interpretations, we can only observe events in the universe but we cannot recognize if the events are ordered or disordered because we really have no true contrasts for comparison.
One interesting thing to note is that your argument itself implies that human interpretation is limited in that it doesn't have enough information to truly say whether or not the universe is damaged. The question will now arise "limited in contrast to what?"

I put to you that in the same vein, with human interpretation we cannot even know if the universe exists or not or if we are indeed observing anything at all or if we even exist to start with since we don't have a "non-existent" to compare with therefore the universe (including us) neither exists or doesn't exist.
..........we now have dived into the realm of the absurd and meaningless.

wiegraf: ^^^
Confusing. Nothing deserving of a circlejerk was said yet you give yourselves one?

I don't get most of that post (maybe it could do with some punctuation, so should many of mine actually), but I'm assuming he thinks there has to be a purpose for evolution. There isn't one.

Deep Sight:

The bold is foolishness. Sorry to say that. Its the truth.

Deep, profound, and firmly-grounded foolishness.


Oh, and might I add: if you cannot see the profound philosophical issues Anony raised, and the counter-questions he used to illustrate the point, you are yet to start in this life. No arrogance, please. Just the hard truth.

Mr_Anony:
Interesting because I put up a similar argument to Plaetton earlier namely "how can the created know what a perfect creation is?"

Mr_Anony:
Ok Martian, so because of our human point of view and human interpretations, we can only observe events in the universe but we cannot recognize if the events are ordered or disordered because we really have no true contrasts for comparison.
One interesting thing to note is that your argument itself implies that human interpretation is limited in that it doesn't have enough information to truly say whether or not the universe is damaged. The question will now arise "limited in contrast to what?"

Mr_Anony:
I put to you that in the same vein, with human interpretation we cannot even know if the universe exists or not or if we are indeed observing anything at all or if we even exist to start with since we don't have a "non-existent" to compare with therefore the universe (including us) neither exists nor doesn't exist.

Mr_Anony:
..........we now have dived into the realm of the absurd and meaningless.

wiegraf:

My dictionary has 'truth' as:
A fact that has been verified
Confirmity to reality or actuality
A true statement
The quality of being near to the true

I'm sorry good sir but I think you don't know how to use the word. And I like the colors. Don't worry about offending me, I don't take most of I read from you seriously.

There is no purpose to evolution, it just is. Intelligent life? Then after millions of years and millions of species only 1 species we know of attained this? We are just lucky our ancestors won the genetic lottery and began to think abstractly. Now we can rationalize, have emotions/experiences and lord over the rest of life on this planet. If you want to dream up something to make yourself feel even more special, that's fine. I hope you don't abuse the word 'truth' there as I'm a pendant of sorts, and that irks me.

As for the bit about not beginning life, that's your opinion. I find the 'profound philosophical issues' he raises irrelevant. Again, knock yourself out if it gives you some sense of purpose (hopefully not misguided). This is a science thread though, no?

Martian:

You assume that it was created, hence your question about "perfect creation". I don't subscrive to your idea of a designer, so this question is meaningless.



Human knowledge is limited and people with expertise in various fields try to increase the that knowledge through various means. This link is an eample about how little we still know about our universe. Human knowledge limited but it has been increasing as we all progress.

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/
More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the Universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 70% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 25%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe.





This is just gross misrepresentation of my point that human knowledge is limited.It's because our knowledge has been increasing that we know about the universe (or what we call the universe). We know we exist because we are alive and doing the observing and learning.
If you want a comparison for existence and non existence, look at yourself. Prior to your conception, gestation and birth, you didn't exist.



Yes, and some people deal with the absurdity and possible meaningless nature of our existence by believing in a god. And you've said before that God is what gives your life meaning and without it,your life doesn't make sense. By believing in the Judeo christian idea of god, you give yourself hope of having a better existence after you die, with a being that is even more powerful than the sum total of the universe we haven't fully comprehended. The creators of christianity's way of dealing with the absurd, was to create a supernatural utopia where your "soul" goes when you die. Some people create their own gods and claim they exist because they they have to believe in a god to give meaning to their lives. I am content with living on earth and eventual death, so I don't need to create a god or have any ideas about surviving my own death. Brain dies, I die. Say hello to "non existence".

Deep Sight:

Silly irrational thoughtless gibberish.

Martian:

Your opinion.

Deep Sight:
In the immortal words a friend of mine: "it is not my opinion, it is a fact".

Martian:

Sure.

Deep Sight:

Superb. And the bold last line encapsulates all that the foolish, unintelligent and shallow-thinking atheistic view-point actually represents.

wiegraf:

My dictionary has 'truth' as:
A fact that has been verified
Confirmity to reality or actuality
A true statement
The quality of being near to the true

I'm sorry good sir but I think you don't know how to use the word. And I like the colors. Don't worry about offending me, I don't take most of I read from you seriously.

There is no purpose to evolution, it just is. Intelligent life? Then after millions of years and millions of species only 1 species we know of attained this? We are just lucky our ancestors won the genetic lottery and began to think abstractly. Now we can rationalize, have emotions/experiences and lord over the rest of life on this planet. If you want to dream up something to make yourself feel even more special, that's fine. I hope you don't abuse the word 'truth' there as I'm a pendant of sorts, and that irks me.

As for the bit about not beginning life, that's your opinion. I find the 'profound philosophical issues' he raises irrelevant. Again, knock yourself out if it gives you some sense of purpose (hopefully not misguided). This is a science thread though, no?

plaetton:

Good day to all.

You are being less than objective.
Mr Anony has the habit of delving into the absurd and meaningless when he is confronted with questions that he cannot answer. In the process he always condradicts his own views. Rather than correct him, you keep egging him on.
I beleive all this is simply because of the unwillingness of these theists to admit that they dont know.
Ofcourse, it goes with the territory. You reach your conclusions first, and then you delve into all sorts of convoluted logic to try make the facts to fit your conclusions.

musKeeto: Sometimes, I just have to doff my hat and say well done.. Most of the posters on this thread are the reason the religion section on NL has become a huge part of my life.. Thanks everyone. I learn a lot on here everyday..

Btw: Martian na badt guy.. Oga DeepSight relax o..

Martian:

You assume that it was created, hence your question about "perfect creation". I don't subscrive to your idea of a designer, so this question is meaningless.

Human knowledge is limited and people with expertise in various fields try to increase the that knowledge through various means. This link is an eample about how little we still know about our universe. Human knowledge limited but it has been increasing as we all progress.

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/
More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the Universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 70% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 25%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe.





This is just gross misrepresentation of my point that human knowledge is limited.It's because our knowledge has been increasing that we know about the universe (or what we call the universe). We know we exist because we are alive and doing the observing and learning.
If you want a comparison for existence and non existence, look at yourself. Prior to your conception, gestation and birth, you didn't exist.

Yes, and some people deal with the absurdity and possible meaningless nature of our existence by believing in a god. And you've said before that God is what gives your life meaning and without it,your life doesn't make sense. By believing in the Judeo christian idea of god, you give yourself hope of having a better existence after you die, with a being that is even more powerful than the sum total of the universe we haven't fully comprehended. The creators of christianity's way of dealing with the absurd, was to create a supernatural utopia where your "soul" goes when you die. Some people create their own gods and claim they exist because they they have to believe in a god to give meaning to their lives. I am content with living on earth and eventual death, so I don't need to create a god or have any ideas about surviving my own death. Brain dies, I die.

diluminati: Interpretation of perfect is subject to what we know, our sanity or insanity, evolving science,environment and beliefs. If there is no perfect universal understanding then theres no perfection or imperfection.pretty much nonsense right.

plaetton:

Good day to all.

You are being less than objective.
Mr Anony has the habit of delving into the absurd and meaningless when he is confronted with questions that he cannot answer. In the process he always condradicts his own views. Rather than correct him, you keep egging him on.
I beleive all this is simply because of the unwillingness of these theists to admit that they dont know.
Ofcourse, it goes with the territory. You reach your conclusions first, and then you delve into all sorts of convoluted logic to try make the facts to fit your conclusions.

If the order of the universe is imperfect, then there must be a perfectly ordered universe from which it deviates.
If this perfect order/design exists, then there must be a perfect designer, God.

If the perfect designer does not exist, then there is no possibility of a perfect design.
If there is no perfect design, then there cannot be an imperfect design or any design at all, Total Chaos and Disorder.

So which is it God or Absolute Chaos?

plaetton:

Good day to all.

You are being less than objective.
Mr Anony has the habit of delving into the absurd and meaningless when he is confronted with questions that he cannot answer. In the process he always condradicts his own views. Rather than correct him, you keep egging him on.
I beleive all this is simply because of the unwillingness of these theists to admit that they dont know.
Ofcourse, it goes with the territory. You reach your conclusions first, and then you delve into all sorts of convoluted logic to try make the facts to fit your conclusions.

cyrexx: .

Mr_Anony:

Of course, convoluted logic like the following....


How is the above absurd and meaningless? How does it contradict my views? Why don't you just correct me or man up and admit that you are wrong. Stop being a religious bigot.

You complain that theists simply won't admit that they don't know. Perhaps the truth is that you hate it when theists actually do know and you wish they didn't know so that you won't have to look so silly.

....... So in the words of two genius philosophers of NL( a.k.a. logicboy and cyrexx): "Free yourself from mental slavery"

Deep Sight:

As bad as religious fairy tales can be, atheistic delusions are far worse and really do sc.rew logic in its backside without con.doms.