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therationa (m)
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I have started this thread as a discussion site for the slightly more philosophical questions of rationalism, reason and faith, as to which is the best reliable epistemological approach for enquiring into the nature of reality. I define rationalism and reason pure as the systematic analysis, experimentation, verifiability and questioning of the nature of reality. Scientific rationalism is grounded on the scientific method, but generally, it posits that nothing should be accepted as knowledge until it is proven as true and is consistently verified to be so. Faith, on the other hand, is the acceptance of claims where no evidence exist. In fact, it is premised on the acceptance of proposition in spite of evidence. For if a claim is sustained by evidence, that claim can no longer be accepted as an article of faith, but now falls within the domain of rational knowledge; Some example to set the scene: It is an article of knowledge that the earth revolves around the sun because this has be shown to be so using the techniques of scientific rationalism. It is not an article of faith, as it once was believe some centuries ago (for which the cleric persecuted Galileo and Geordano Bruno) that the earth was the centre of the universe; made so by God as his special creation for his special creatures. So within cosmology, scientific rationalism has displaces faith. It was once taken as an article of faith that humans have existed on the planet for only about 10000 years. Now this has been shown, through scientific rationalism to be untenable. Faith claims are the following; Virgin birth, immaculate conception, existence of Jesus, origin of sin etc etc. So on this thread, I would like the various participants to demonstrate which approach provides the better epistemic methodology for revealing the nature of reality and also provide supporting evidence as to why they are making such claims. Thankx ===================================================================================================== Some of my other threads The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006 Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipationhttp://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113860.0.html Hell Past, Hell Present; Which Do You Prefer?http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113947.0.html#msg1971669Scientific Rationalism, Reason And Faith: Which Produces Systematic Knowledge?http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114253.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2: http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.0.html On The Historical Reliability Of The Bible http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114215.0.html When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418 When Was Jesus Born?http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus 13012dg http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529 Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence. http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved?http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written? http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589 God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitlerhttp://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity? http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html Faith-healer And Evangelist, Maurice Cerullo, Investigated http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113871.0.html What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada? http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Commahttp://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2 http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.htmlHow Is Salvation Achieved? http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.htmlOnly For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Storieshttp://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibleshttp://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311When Was Jesus Crucified?http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353Faith-healers And Tele-evangelistshttp://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528Where Did Sin Originate?http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291For The Non-beleivers Only, 1http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631Has Atheism Got Principle? Nohttp://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriagehttp://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principleshttp://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268Great Books About Non-belief http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992 What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God? http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975Genesis Vs Genetics http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.htmlJesus Genealogy http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160==================================================================================================== |
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therationa (m)
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Imhotep,
You wanted to talk about scientific rationalism, so I started this thread for that discussion. But you have not made any input yet. What is happening?
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imhotep
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1) Rationalism is "any view appealing to reason as a source of knowledge or justification".2) Faith is the hypostasis of things not seen.Rationalism and faith are thus on DIFFERENT LEVELS. It is erroneous to place faith in direct opposition to rationalism or vice versa.Rationalism should go hand-in-hand with faith and vice versa. Otherwise the consequences can be disastrous. Pope John Paull II explained this in his letter titled 'Faith and Reason' -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fides_et_RatioLet me quote him -> " Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know Himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves" |
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stimulus (m)
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Dear therationa and imhotep, I would like to enter this discussion and make contributions where necessary; but since I'D not like to be seen as barging into this thread, I thought it wise to first seek therationa's invitation to join the discussion. What sayest thou (therationa)?  |
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olabowale (m)
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@Stimulus: What sayest thou (therationa)? You really do not have to take permission from them to contribute to the thread. Ithink this response of yours is very shurdy. You should contribute greatly, because I think you at least can defend the belief system, yours for an example, in a very esoterical way, neither leaning this way or that. But trying to define belief as a faith rather that rationality of Science, without its obvious fusion with faith. Afterall, we see the handwork of a more intelligent being in our processes, without having to disagree with the rationale held by many Science Scholarship. |
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stimulus (m)
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@olabowale, @Stimulus: You really do not have to take permission from them to contribute to the thread. Ithink this response of yours is very shurdy. You should contribute greatly, because I think you at least can defend the belief system, yours for an example, in a very esoterical way, neither leaning this way or that. But trying to define belief as a faith rather that rationality of Science, without its obvious fusion with faith. Well, I did not want to barge in here uninvited, as therationa has opined earlier that " stimulus, 4Him and imhotep" were welcome to NOT post replies to his thread.  I really do not have any worries with making contributions on any subject; but I'D agree with the substance in imhotep's initial response. In anycase, as when necessary, I'D be making inputs for our mutual benefits as the discussion progresses. Enjoy.  |
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kola oloye (m)
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FAITH.
AT THE SAME TIME DON`T CONFUSE FOOLISHNESS FOR FAITH
because THERE IS FAITH & THERE IS FOOLISHNESS
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therationa (m)
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@olabowale, Well, I did not want to barge in here uninvited, as therationa has opined earlier that " stimulus, 4Him and imhotep" were welcome to NOT post replies to his thread. I really do not have any worries with making contributions on any subject; but I'D agree with the substance in imhotep's initial response. In anycase, as when necessary, I'D be making inputs for our mutual benefits as the discussion progresses. Enjoy. Stimulus - I understand your position. And thanks for asking and you are graciously welcome to the discussion. Indeed, everyone is welcome as long as we try to stick to the topic and we stay respectful and civil to everyone. Am currently at work right now,so my input will be rather few and far between though. |
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bawomolo (m)
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FAITH.
AT THE SAME TIME DON`T CONFUSE FOOLISHNESS FOR FAITH
because THERE IS FAITH & THERE IS FOOLISHNESS
wouldn't faith inevitably lead to blind fellowship??
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kola oloye (m)
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@bawomolo,
NO IT WON`T. ALL YOU NEED IS DISCERNMENT.(acuteness of judgment and understanding)
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imhotep
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wouldn't faith inevitably lead to blind fellowship??
Faith, when alienated from reason, leads to blind fellowship. Reason, when alienated from faith, leads to hardness of heart. Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth |
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therationa (m)
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1) Rationalism is "any view appealing to reason as a source of knowledge or justification".2) Faith is the hypostasis of things not seen.Rationalism and faith are thus on DIFFERENT LEVELS. It is erroneous to place faith in direct opposition to rationalism or vice versa.Rationalism should go hand-in-hand with faith and vice versa. Otherwise the consequences can be disastrous. Pope John Paull II explained this in his letter titled 'Faith and Reason' -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fides_et_RatioLet me quote him -> " Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know Himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves" Imhotep, this topic runs the risk of going off course. First let's come to an agree definition of what faith and reason/rationalism is. Once we are happy with that I shall publish our agree definition on the main body of the post. Then we can discuss as to whether they are opposing and/or complimentary. Shall we. I like your definition of rationalism, but I did not quite get your definition for faith. Can you present that again in simple layman language? |
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imhotep
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Imhotep, this topic runs the risk of going off course. First let's come to an agree definition of what faith and reason/rationalism is. Once we are happy with that I shall publish our agree definition on the main body of the post. Then we can discuss as to whether they are opposing and/or complimentary. Shall we.
I like your definition of rationalism, but I did not quite get your definition for faith. Can you present that again in simple layman language?
I am saying that faith should not be divorced from reason. Divorcing them has led many astray. Reason should be enlightened by faith. The scientific progress made in Europe can be attributed to Christianity. Christianity ultimately deleted superstition from the minds of the would-be scientists. This left them free to reason properly. Compare this with Africa where some people still believe that Sango is responsible for thunder and lightening. The definition of faith is taken from the book of Hebrews 11:1. I chose to leave the Greek word hypostasis for your further research. |
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therationa (m)
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I am saying that faith should not be divorced from reason. Divorcing them has led many astray. Reason should be enlightened by faith.
The scientific progress made in Europe can be attributed to Christianity. Christianity ultimately deleted superstition from the minds of the would-be scientists. This left them free to reason properly. Compare this with Africa where some people still believe that Sango is responsible for thunder and lightening.
The definition of faith is taken from the book of Hebrews 11:1. I chose to leave the Greek word hypostasis for your further research.
OK. Take for instance the Catholic doctrine of immaculate conception OR assumption. Assumption is not in the bible nor is immaculate conception. Now, do you accept these as articles of faith? What level of rationalism and reason have you used to investigate the plausibility of these doctrine? |
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imhotep
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OK. Take for instance the Catholic doctrine of immaculate conception OR assumption. Assumption is not in the bible nor is immaculate conception.
Nice. I will give you a Catholic's answer. Catholics believe that the Church has Authority from Christ to teach the truth ( Matt 28:16-20 -> Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.). This teaching authority is referred to as the Magisterium (from the Latin Magisterium, "office of superintendent/president/master/chief; instruction; control/governance") of the Church. Note that the bible as it stands today was first approved at a synod of bishops in Hippo, somewhere in modern day Algeria in 393 AD. See -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_HippoSo, the bible, to Catholics, stands on the Authority of the Church.Other teachings (doctrines) grew out of the deepening faith of the Christians through the centuries. Doctrines such as 1) the Trinity 2) Immaculate conception 3) Assumption 4) Ban on contraception 5) Ban on homosexuality 6) Ban on euthanasia (mercy killing for very old people) 7) Ban on abortion  Ban on embryonic stem cell research are also taught by the Church on the basis of the Magisterium. Now, do you accept these as articles of faith? What level of rationalism and reason have you used to investigate the plausibility of these doctrine?
Yes, I accept them because I accept the teaching authority of the Church. These doctrines are based on theological (note that Theology is ultimately the study of God) reflections spanning centuries. Some of them are available online (like Aquinas' Summa Theologica). I have read a good number of these reflections, and I agree with them. |
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huxley (m)
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For the more philosophically minded amongst you!
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m_nwankwo (m)
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I dispute the suggestion that faith is belief or acceptance of something without evidence. This is because what constitute evidence may or may not be physically visible. Thus the underlying assumption behind the statement that "faith is acceptance without evidence" is that only what is sensed by the physical senses is evidence. My view is that it is very possible to experience using the organs of the spirit or soul. Therefore it is possible using these spiritual faculties to see, hear, smell, torch etc things which are completely invisible to the brain and the physical organs under its control. Until the invention of microscope, micoorganisms were not believed to be in existence, and yet today a high school kid is aware of millions of bacteria in an apparently very clean mouth. Faith as opposed to "blind faith" is belief in something which one has personally experienced with his spirit. Thus if you believe in life after death because you were told in your religion or you read it in a book, that does not yet qualify as faith. It becomes faith when you have personally experinced life after death and in that case that knowlege is a part of you, it is hardwired in your soul, it is a living conviction. That is what I call faith.
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Pastor AIO
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I dispute the suggestion that faith is belief or acceptance of something without evidence. This is because what constitute evidence may or may not be physically visible. Thus the underlying assumption behind the statement that "faith is acceptance without evidence" is that only what is sensed by the physical senses is evidence. My view is that it is very possible to experience using the organs of the spirit or soul. Therefore it is possible using these spiritual faculties to see, hear, smell, torch etc things which are completely invisible to the brain and the physical organs under its control. Until the invention of microscope, micoorganisms were not believed to be in existence, and yet today a high school kid is aware of millions of bacteria in an apparently very clean mouth. Faith as opposed to "blind faith" is belief in something which one has personally experienced with his spirit. Thus if you believe in life after death because you were told in your religion or you read it in a book, that does not yet qualify as faith. It becomes faith when you have personally experinced life after death and in that case that knowlege is a part of you, it is hardwired in your soul, it is a living conviction. That is what I call faith.
QFT!! Quoted for Truth. I'm so impressed and in agreement with the above post. There is no such things as 'Blind' faith. Faith isn't blind. It is those that cling to doctrines without evidence that are blind, not the faithful. With Faith we percieve, and with faith we act upon the world. l The five physical senses do no reveal but a fragment of reality. Those who are awakened percieve further. The dead remain with the dead. |
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