knowledge4:
The JW deny the Trinity which the Bible affirms in 1 John 5:7. If you read the Bible's 1 John 5:7,the content is different from that of the JW Bible's 1 John 5:7. The JW Bible's 1 John 5:7 is a polluted or distorted version of the Bible's 1 John 5:7

1 John 5:7

(American Standard Version)
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth
(Common English Bible)
The three are testifying—
(Contemporary English Version)
In fact, there are three who tell about it.
-Darby Translation (DARBY)
For they that bear witness are three:
Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
So there are three witnesses that tell us about Jesus:
Today's New International Version (TNIV)
For there are three that testify:
New International Version - UK (NIVUK)
For there are three that testify:

Most modern translations, except the New King James, remove this verse. Some even have a footnote with this verse saying the it is not found in the oldest Greek manuscripts. The reference to the three "witnesses" in heaven does not appear in a single early Greek manuscript. It was added later to the Latin manuscripts. Modern Protestant and Catholic scholars and theologians readily admit that the passage is spurious, and was not a part of the original text. The verse has been rejected as a patent forgery by all competent critics, (though it was in 1897 solemnly pronounced genuine by Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical). So the JWs are not the only ones who don't use this verse.

2 Corinthians 4:4
New International Version (NIV)

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"

Who is this god who blinds the minds of unbelievers? Isn't it Satan? So is Satan called a god in the Bible?

jaidopor:


Why was the presents of Jesus Christ coming change from 1875 to 1914?

If I'm not mistaken it was actually 1874 not 1875.   Nelson H. Barbour that was the first that said that Christ’s invisible presence had begun in 1874 and Russell believed him.

cardini:

Thank you for your explanation. This makes more sense but kind of takes the magic out of the JW prophecy.

I see what the Jehovah's Witness publications are doing now thanks to your explanation. Everything I read misleads the reader into thinking that the prophecy has a WOW factor in that being 'Christ became king in 1914, cast Satan down to earth and this caused great woe for the earth. think what happened in 1914? OMG the 1st World War started!!! It must be true and wow the witnesses said this would happen 40 years before 1914!'.
Some examples of this dishonest reasoning I found are in the articles on http://www.watchtower.org : The article at http://www.watchtower.org/e/lmn/article_10.htm says:

When and how is the perfect government established? When Jesus was on earth this Kingdom was the main theme of his preaching. (Matthew 4:17; Luke 8:1) However, he did not establish the Kingdom at that time, nor at his resurrection. (Acts 1:6- Even when he ascended into the heavens, he still had to wait for Jehovah's appointed time. (Psalm 110:1, 2; Hebrews 1:13) Bible prophecy shows that appointed time came in 1914 C.E. However, someone will ask, 'Rather than perfect government, did not 1914 mark the start of increased world woes?' That is exactly the point! There is a close connection between the coming of God's Kingdom and the catastrophic events of recent years, as we shall now see.

I'm so sorry , i must had a rough day at work, can you explain a little more. Where is the dishonest reasoning? Can you pin point?

cardini:

Hi just been reading about Jehovah s Witnesses and 1914. Sorry if I am being a bit thick here, but the Watch Tower Society publications teach that Jesus Christ returned invisibly and began to rule in heaven as king in October 1914. How come the 1st world war had already started on the 28th July 1914? If the 1st World War proves that JW are right, then how come the war had already started? From what I read, the first world war was started by Satan because he was bringing woe to the earth for being cast out of heaven after Christ became king (October 1914). It looks to me that the 1st World War is a red herring and just a coincidence and proves nothing.

1- First we need to recognize that Satan had the ability to come and go -Job1:7. So he didn't actually need to be kicked out of heaven to start a mess down here. He knew what was coming.
2- “The dragon [Satan] kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth,” states Revelation 12:4, “that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child.” This shows that Satan wanted to dispose of the newborn Kingdom quickly, at the moment of its birth if at all possible. Though Jehovah’s intervention prevented Satan from realizing his wicked intention, Satan was determined and relentless in his effort to do harm to the newly established Kingdom. It stands to reason, therefore, that “Michael and his angels” would waste no time in taking action to remove “the dragon and its angels” from the heavenly scene so that no harm could come to the Kingdom. This suggests that the defeat and ousting of Satan took place soon after the Kingdom’s birth in 1914.
So actually Jesus prophecies on Matthew 24 was an indication of the Kingdom’s birth not Satan's ousting.

MyJoe:

Are you, ma’am, really blissfully unaware that diseases are killing fewer people today compared to the past?

The influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 killed more people than the Great War, known today as World War I (WWI), at somewhere between 20 and 40 million people. It has been cited as the most devastating epidemic in recorded world history. More people died of influenza in a single year than in four-years of the Black Death Bubonic Plague from 1347 to 1351. Known as "Spanish Flu" or "La Grippe" the influenza of 1918-1919 was a global disaster.

MyJoe:

That there is no famine today compared to what they had in the past?

Was the Irish potato famine the worst famine in recorded history?
   The Irish famine was not the worst famine in history. In the People's Republic of China between 1959 and 1962, a famine struck the took the lives of some where between 20 million and 43 million people. The famine in Ireland in the mid 1800s caused only a small amount of deaths in comparison, somewhere between 500,000 and 2 million.


One thing we all have to keep in mind, Jesus said all these things were going to be happening at once. Guess what, they are happening at once. Unlike other incidents which eventually went away, what we see now are here to the end. Matthew 24:14 ", and then the end will come" .

Ndipe:

Read this: Jesus Christ says in His Holy Bible that no man knows the day or hour of His second coming, not even the angels. And that includes JW.
http://bible.cc/matthew/24-36.htm

Absolutely true. Jesus said there are only signs .

Ndipe:

Still, Jesus Christ did not come to the world in 1914.

The presence is invisible to human eyes. Remember, Jesus discussed the sign of his presence. (Matthew 24:3) If his presence were visible to human eyes, would a sign be needed? To illustrate: Imagine that you are traveling to see the ocean. You may see road signs directing you along the way, but once you are at the shore, standing at the water’s edge with the vast expanse of water stretching out to the horizon, would you expect to see a sign with a big arrow pointing ahead, emblazoned with the word “Ocean”? Of course not! Why have a sign to point out what you can easily identify with your eyes?
Jesus described the [b]sign [/b]of his presence, not to point out something that humans could see with their eyes, but to help them discern something that would occur in heaven. Thus, Jesus said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness.” (Luke 17:20)

MyJoe:

Once people had swords – they used them. Then they had gunpowder – they used them. Then they had warplanes – and they used them. Can you please explain why the last case a “turning point” but the previous ones aren’t?

Developments in two areas have a bearing on identifying what the Bible calls the last days. The Scriptures foretell events that would take place during the time of “the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 24:3) The Bible also speaks of changes in the attitudes and actions of people living in “the last days.”—2 Timothy 3:1.
“Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,” said Jesus, “and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.” He added: “All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.” (Matthew 24:7, 8 )   Vast numbers of people were slain in wars and ethnic disputes during the past century. “Three times as many people fell victim to war in [the 20th] century as in all the wars from the first century AD to 1899,” states a scholarly report from the Worldwatch Institute. In his book Humanity—A Moral History of the Twentieth Century, Jonathan Glover writes: “An estimate for the period from 1900 until 1989 is that war killed 86 million people. . . . Death in twentieth-century war has been on a scale which is hard to grasp. Any averaging out of the numbers of deaths is artificial, since about two-thirds (58 million) were killed in the two world wars. But, if these deaths had been spread evenly over the period, war would have killed around 2,500 people every day, that is over 100 people an hour, round the clock, for ninety years.” Can you imagine the grief and pain this must have caused the millions of relatives and friends of those who lost their lives?
Despite the fact that the world produces plenty of food, the features characterizing the last days include food shortages. Researchers say that over the past 30 years, food production has outpaced population increase. Nevertheless, food shortages prevail in large areas of the world because many people do not have sufficient land to grow food or enough money to buy food. In developing countries, some 1.2 billion people subsist on a dollar (U.S.) a day or less. Of these, about 780 million suffer chronic hunger. According to the World Health Organization, annually malnutrition plays a major role in the deaths of over five million children.
What can be said about the foretold earthquakes? According to the U.S. Geological Survey, the number of earthquakes powerful enough to destroy buildings has averaged 17 a year since 1990 alone. On average, earthquakes strong enough to cause almost total destruction of buildings have occurred once each year. “Earthquakes have claimed hundreds of thousands of lives in the last 100 years,” states another source. One reason for this is that since 1914 many large population centers have developed in earthquake zones.
“There will be . . . in one place after another pestilences,” said Jesus. (Luke 21:11) Medical science today is more advanced than ever before. Still, both old and new diseases continue to ravage mankind. A U.S. National Intelligence Council document states: “Twenty well-known diseases—including tuberculosis (TB), malaria, and cholera—have reemerged or spread geographically since 1973, often in more virulent and drug-resistant forms. At least 30 previously unknown disease agents have been identified since 1973, including HIV, Ebola, hepatitis C, and Nipah virus, for which no cures are available.” According to a Red Cross report of June 28, 2000, during the preceding year, the number of people who died from infectious diseases was about 160 times greater than the number who died in natural disasters.
“The increasing of lawlessness” is another noteworthy feature of the last days. (Matthew 24:12) In most places around the earth today, people do not leave their homes unlocked or feel safe on the street at night. And what about the pollution of the air, the water, and the land that we see taking place, often because of illegal practices? This too is in fulfillment of what the Bible foretold. The book of Revelation speaks of God’s appointed time to “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”—Revelation 11:18.

MyJoe:

@RWilliams
Are you seriously saying there were no wars before 1914? That nations just started rising against nations in 1914? No, I believe not. Relative to population and technological advancement there were similarly destructive wars before 1914. But how about 1938, the year the much more destructive World War II started? Was that a turning point, too?

1914 was the beginning of an epoch. After 1914 the following wars where more destructive than ever before. From WWI on, the nations started using airplanes, tanks, subs, poison gas, bombs, etc. Definitely a turning point. Yes there were wars before 1914 but never like this. One of the US presidents even said more people have died in the 20th Century than all of previous war before. Definitely a turning point.

@MyJoe

How come you don't back up anything you say with the bible? I don't see you mentioned anything directly from the scriptures? Are you a christian?

@Bobbyaf

Philippians 2:6 (New International Version)
6Who, being in very nature[a] ( footnote: Or in the form of ) God,
      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Philippians 2:6 (New Living Translation)
6 Though he was God,[a] ( footnote: Or in the form of )
      he did not think of equality with God
      as something to cling to.

Philippians 2:6 (English Standard Version)
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

These are other translations about Philippians 2:6 . You see how they explain it?

Far from saying that Jesus thought it was appropriate to be equal to God, the Greek of Philippians 2:6, when read objectively, shows just the opposite, that Jesus did not think it was appropriate.
The context of the surrounding verses (3-5, 7, 8, Dy) makes it clear how verse 6 is to be understood. The Philippians were urged: "In humility, let each esteem others better than themselves." Then Paul uses Christ as the outstanding example of this attitude: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." What "mind"? To 'think it not robbery to be equal with God'? No, that would be just the opposite of the point being made! Rather, Jesus, who 'esteemed God as better than himself,' would never 'grasp for equality with God,' but instead he "humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death."
Surely, that cannot be talking about any part of Almighty God. It was talking about Jesus Christ, who perfectly illustrated Paul's point here—namely the importance of humility and obedience to one's Superior and Creator, Jehovah God.

@Ndipe

Yea but it does not make any sense. If he was tempted and did sin, who was he gonna be disloyal to, to himself? Impossible -Deuteronomy 32:4 Then why did Satan waste his time tempting him if he was GOD? The truth is Jesus could have been disloyal cause hes not God. But he remained faithful, saying: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"—Matthew 4:10. He never said he was GOD. Also think about the ransom. ONE of the main reasons why Jesus came to earth also has a direct bearing on the Trinity. The Bible states: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."—1 Timothy 2:5, 6.

Jesus, no more and no less than a perfect human, became a ransom that compensated exactly for what Adam lost—the right to perfect human life on earth. So Jesus could rightly be called "the last Adam" by the apostle Paul, who said in the same context: "Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45) The perfect human life of Jesus was the "corresponding ransom" required by divine justice—no more, no less. A basic principle even of human justice is that the price paid should fit the wrong committed.

If Jesus, however, were part of a Godhead, the ransom price would have been infinitely higher than what God's own Law required. (Exodus 21:23-25; Leviticus 24:19-21) It was only a perfect human, Adam, who sinned in Eden, not God. So the ransom, to be truly in line with God's justice, had to be strictly an equivalent—a perfect human, "the last Adam." Thus, when God sent Jesus to earth as the ransom, he made Jesus to be what would satisfy justice, not an incarnation, not a god-man, but a perfect man, "lower than angels." (Hebrews 2:9; compare Psalm 8:5, 6.) How could any part of an almighty Godhead—Father, Son, or holy spirit—ever be lower than angels?

AT MATTHEW 4:1, Jesus is spoken of as being "tempted by the Devil." After showing Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory," Satan said: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me." (Matthew 4:8, 9) Satan was trying to cause Jesus to be disloyal to God.

But what test of loyalty would that be if Jesus were God? Could God rebel against himself? No, but angels and humans could rebel against God and did. The temptation of Jesus would make sense only if he was, not God, but a separate individual who had his own free will, one who could have been disloyal had he chosen to be, such as an angel or a human.

On the other hand, it is unimaginable that God could sin and be disloyal to himself. "Perfect is his activity . . . A God of faithfulness, . . . righteous and upright is he." (Deuteronomy 32:4) So if Jesus had been God, he could not have been tempted.—James 1:13.

Not being God, Jesus could have been disloyal. But he remained faithful, saying: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"—Matthew 4:10.

You get confused? You dont understand?  Lets take it easy then.

Can you explain how the bold letters say Jesus is God?  Too many to talk at once so look at the first one you highlighted - Hebrews 1:2 says: "has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things". When compared to John 8:42 and 12:49 we can say that since Jesus was sent by God he spoke to us through him. Like a lawyer uses his secretary: The lawyer can send you a message with his secretary. But its still the lawyers message. That doesn't mean mean he and the secretary are the same person.


Oh, on the previous post I wanted to clear up something

*Jesus was obedient in heaven and sent by the Father – John 8:42; 12:49  Cant deny that the Bible says that. Sure he volunteered. But, for example, if my Boss asked the whole department, at work, that he wants someone to represent the company at a business presentation and I volunteer. Im still sent [/b]by my Boss and I represent the company even though I [b]volunteered.  So what was your point?

Can you do me a favor and explain to me 2 Corinthians 4:4   Who is the god its talking about?


You see, if the Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.

WHILE on earth, Jesus was a human, although a perfect one because it was God who transferred the life-force of Jesus to the womb of Mary. (Matthew 1:18-25) But that is not how he began. He himself declared that he had "descended from heaven." (John 3:13) So it was only natural that he would later say to his followers: "What if you should see the Son of man [Jesus] ascend to where he was before?"—John 6:62, NJB.

Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation.

Having been created by God, Jesus is in a secondary position in time, power, and knowledge

Beginning of Creation, Ndipe?

Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was "the first-born of all creation." (Colossians 1:15, NJB) He was "the beginning of God's creation." (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). "Beginning" [Greek, ar·khe'] cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the 'beginner' of God's creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek word ar·khe' more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of "beginning." Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of God's invisible creations.

Notice how closely those references to the origin of Jesus correlate with expressions uttered by the figurative "Wisdom" in the Bible book of Proverbs: "Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world." (Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26, NJB) While the term "Wisdom" is used to personify the one whom God created, most scholars agree that it is actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence.

As "Wisdom" in his prehuman existence, Jesus goes on to say that he was "by his [God's] side, a master craftsman." (Proverbs 8:30, JB) In harmony with this role as master craftsman, Colossians 1:16 says of Jesus that "through him God created everything in heaven and on earth."—Today's English Version (TEV).

So it was by means of this master worker, his junior partner, as it were, that Almighty God created all other things. The Bible summarizes the matter this way: "For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things." (Italics ours.)—1 Corinthians 8:6, RS, Catholic edition.

It no doubt was to this master craftsman that God said: "Let us make man in our image." (Genesis 1:26) Some have claimed that the "us" and "our" in this expression indicate a Trinity. But if you were to say, 'Let us make something for ourselves,' no one would normally understand this to imply that several persons are combined as one inside of you. You simply mean that two or more individuals will work together on something. So, too, when God used "us" and "our," he was simply addressing another individual, his first spirit creation, the master craftsman, the prehuman Jesus.

@Bobbyaf

@Bobby

Bobbyaf I saw a posting on the Trinity.  Why would the whole plan of salvation be fraudulent and suspicious? Would you explain yourself, please.

*Doesn’t  Rev 3:14 talks about Jesus being the first created by God? So if he was created how can he be God? – Colossians 1:15

*Jesus was obedient in heaven and sent by de Father – John 8:42; 12:49         
                                                             
*Obedient in earth(obedient to who?) and his father is greater – John 14:28; 5:19; Heb 5:8

*God is the Head - 1 Cor 11:3; John 20:17; Rev 1:6

*2 Corinthians 4:4 says “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”    By ‘god of this age’  he means Satan, don’t u agree? So if Satan is called a God, isn’t Jesus greater than him?  the fact that Jesus is called in the Bible a god doesn’t mean anything because Satan is also called a God. Jesus is an image of Jehovah not the almighty himself. 

*Sure Jesus said him and the father where one but he also explained in which way John 17:21-23 says: “21 I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me. 22 “I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one. 23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.”           Was Jesus really praying for his disciples to become, literally, one person?

Hey is me again? Hello Nimshi long time,    Hello all. Mind if I re-join?  I have a comment:  Lets see,    First Nimshi has posted incidents about people who are "JW's" with child abuse. Maybe they really are JW or maybe not all. I dont know. But my point is why judge the whole JW organization because of what some people have done. Theres always gonna be sick people in this world anywhere you go. Tell me any religion you want and I bet that if I google it theres something somewhere negative about that religion.  Would you judge Jesus teachings/religion because one of his apostles became a traitor? and they were only 12,    or Will you judge God because one of his angels betrayed him and became Satan and many other angels followed? Not everybody will follow the right path,                 Mathew 24:13 Ndipe I would like to dialog with you, which do you prefer 1st: 1914 or Christmas?

Nimshi you cant give me a straight answer cause you know I'm right. Your actually trying to avoid the question. All you talk about is JW's, but you try to avoid the Bible. You know alot about JW's, are you disfellowship or something? Im not wasting my time here anymore, I cant have Bible conversations with Chris or Pilgrim about the Bible without you jumping in and bringing up religion and bringing up other topics. Just remember you could not answer me the question,

Nimshi Did Jesus go to paradise "Today", meaning the same day? If Yes, then what bible reference do you have to support that?

You didn't answer We can talk about the topic you posted from your friend but lets not cross that bridge yet. I still have to answer Pilgrim.1's question too. Lets go a step at a time.
And If you can, don't bring up religion, lets talk about the Bible not religion. I have no idea what religion all of you are and it doesn't really interests me. I came here to have conversations about the Bible, not religion.

Chris, you say:"leave things as they should be and not force interpretations". Then Luke 23:43 should read:"Jesus answered him I tell you the truth today you will be with me in paradise" NO COMMA. Now let me ask you what I asked Nimshi:

Did Jesus go to paradise "Today", meaning the same day? If Yes, then what bible reference do you have to support that? So we can understand what Jesus really meant since we not using any commas. They were added in translation.

Nimshi     Did Jesus go to paradise "Today", meaning the same day?    If Yes, then what bible reference do you have to support that?




I have Bible reference to support that he didn't,

Matthew 5:26 (New Living Translation)
And if that happens you, surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 11:11 (New Living Translation)
“I tell you the truth of all, who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least person in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he is!

These don't change the meaning. They don't sound right but can be understood the same way if you think about it. But if you do change Luke 23:43 it changes the meaning and contradicts other verses. I already posted why. Very clearly!!! Here, let me post it again. Let me copy/paste:

Jesus was not resurrected on the day he died, but on the third day from his death. Thus, he could not have come into his kingdom on the day of his death. Then where was he during those three days, before his resurrection? Acts 2:24 says: "God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it." So Jesus was in the grip of death during that time. Acts 2:27 further says concerning him: "You will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption." Hence, Jesus was in Hades, which is mankind's common grave. And the Bible says that there is "no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [LXX, Hades]." So he was out of existence in Hades, as was the evildoer.―Eccl. 9:5, 10.
Then, on the third day from his death, God raised Jesus from the dead as a mighty spirit creature. But the evildoer was not raised; he stayed in the grave.―1 Pet. 3:18.
When Jesus, after his resurrection, materialized to appear to his disciples, they asked him: "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" (Acts 1:6) Jesus showed that the answer was, No. The time had not yet come for his kingdom to be established.
Then, was God's heavenly kingdom, with Jesus as king, established at any time during the lives of the apostles? No, for about sixty-three years after Jesus' death and resurrection the apostle John was inspired to write that God's kingdom was still in the future. (Revelation chapter 12) And it would be under that future kingdom that paradise would be restored.
Thus, the Translation I use, in its rendering of Luke 23:43, is consistent with the truth of God's Word concerning the establishment of God's kingdom, the Paradise earth that will be restored under Kingdom rule, the condition of the dead, and where Jesus was during those three days.
Other translators have also seen the difficulty involving the comma in this scripture. The Riverside New Testament avoided the problem by not putting in a comma at all, rendering it: "I tell you truly to-day you will be with me in Paradise." On the other hand, The New Testament by George M. Lamsa renders it: "Truly I say to you today, You will be with me in Paradise." Also The Emphasised Bible by Joseph B. Rotherham reads: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."
So what Jesus was saying was that when God's kingdom by Christ was established at a time then future, and when Paradise was restored to the earth, this evildoer could expect to be resurrected to have an opportunity for eternal life.


I think the Bible doesn't contradicts itself.

Pilgrim.1 I don't really think is important my references but the fact that what I posted makes alot of sense. Will soon post the Luke 16:23 question.

*************************

Chrisbenogor:
Matthew 5:26 (New Living Translation)
And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 11:11 (New Living Translation)
“I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least person in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he is!

This is proof that the translations change. Same Bible, 2 examples from your posting. Different how they began the sentence. This same translation starts Luke 23:43 with I assure you.
What was your point again?

It was not until the 9th century C.E. that punctuation came into general use.  Luke was written, what,    1st Century?   Luke was written in[b] GREEK[/b]!! Therefore when this book was written there were no punctuations. They were added in translations.   I think my explanation of why the comma doesn't go where you think, is clear.    If it was true what you say than the Bible is clearly contradicting itself. I don't think that's possible.   Do you?   Or was Jesus Lying? According to the Bible, "Today" or "that same day"  Jesus didn't got to paradise. I posted alot of proof of this.        Be careful dude.

New King James Version Ecclesiastes 9:5,10
{
5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going }


New American Standard Bible Ecclesiastes 9:5,10
{
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going. }

I cited from translations I normally don’t use, to prove a point and so nobody says I have "different" Bible. My point is:
Sheol = Grave That’s where they are, presently, until the Resurrection.

Luke 23:43
In the Translation I use of the Holy Scriptures Luke 23:43 reads: "And he said to him: 'Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.'" Jesus said this in answer to the following request of one of the evildoers hung beside him: "Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom."―Luke 23:42.
However, other Bible translations punctuate Luke 23:43 differently. For instance, the King James Version says: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
There is no question but that the position of the comma changes the meaning of the verse. In the King James Version the comma's being placed before the word "today" makes it appear that Jesus told the evildoer that he would be in Paradise that very same day. This would mean that Jesus would have to come into his Kingdom, and that Jesus, as well as the evildoer, would be in Paradise on that very day that he was speaking.
In the original Greek language of the Christian Greek Scriptures, how is this sentence punctuated? It is not punctuated at all. Why not? Because the writers of the Greek Scriptures did not use punctuation at that time. The Encyclopedia Americana, 1956, Volume 23, page 16, states: "No attempt to punctuate is apparent in the earlier manuscripts and inscriptions of the Greeks." It was not until the 9th century C.E. that punctuation came into general use. Although later Greek texts such as that of Westcott and Hort put the comma before the Greek word for "today," they did so according to their own understanding and religious beliefs. However, neither the comma nor any of the other punctuation was there in the older Greek texts.
Where, then, should the comma be put? What is the testimony of God's own Word on this matter? What did Jesus himself say? Did he believe he was going to inherit his kingdom and be in some kind of Paradise immediately after he died, in that same twenty-four-hour period?
Earlier, to his disciples, Jesus stated: "The Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the older men and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised up." (Luke 9:22) The two angels at the tomb told the women who had come there: "He is not here, but has been raised up. Recall how he spoke to you while he was yet in Galilee, saying that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be impaled and yet on the third day rise."―Luke 24:6, 7.
Jesus was not resurrected on the day he died, but on the third day from his death. Thus, he could not have come into his kingdom on the day of his death. Then where was he during those three days, before his resurrection? Acts 2:24 says: "God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it." So Jesus was in the grip of death during that time. Acts 2:27 further says concerning him: "You will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption." Hence, Jesus was in Hades, which is mankind's common grave. And the Bible says that there is "no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [LXX, Hades]." So he was out of existence in Hades, as was the evildoer.―Eccl. 9:5, 10.
Then, on the third day from his death, God raised Jesus from the dead as a mighty spirit creature. But the evildoer was not raised; he stayed in the grave.―1 Pet. 3:18.
When Jesus, after his resurrection, materialized to appear to his disciples, they asked him: "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" (Acts 1:6) Jesus showed that the answer was, No. The time had not yet come for his kingdom to be established.
Then, was God's heavenly kingdom, with Jesus as king, established at any time during the lives of the apostles? No, for about sixty-three years after Jesus' death and resurrection the apostle John was inspired to write that God's kingdom was still in the future. (Revelation chapter 12) And it would be under that future kingdom that paradise would be restored.
Thus, the Translation I use, in its rendering of Luke 23:43, is consistent with the truth of God's Word concerning the establishment of God's kingdom, the Paradise earth that will be restored under Kingdom rule, the condition of the dead, and where Jesus was during those three days.
Other translators have also seen the difficulty involving the comma in this scripture. The Riverside New Testament avoided the problem by not putting in a comma at all, rendering it: "I tell you truly to-day you will be with me in Paradise." On the other hand, The New Testament by George M. Lamsa renders it: "Truly I say to you today, You will be with me in Paradise." Also The Emphasised Bible by Joseph B. Rotherham reads: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."
So what Jesus was saying was that when God's kingdom by Christ was established at a time then future, and when Paradise was restored to the earth, this evildoer could expect to be resurrected to have an opportunity for eternal life. He would be included among those mentioned at Acts 24:15, where it states: "There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." As an "unrighteous" person he would be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn of God's purposes and requirements. If obedient to God and his King-Son, he would live forever on that Paradise earth, qualified to be among those of whom Psalm 37:29 foretold: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."

Well Nimshi this is what I saw when I visited them. Everybody was happy when I went to the meeting for the first time. Even I felt the joy. Really nice people. I even got into good conversation with kids. Really nice experience. So different from Catholics. They didn't even ask me for money. Not like the Pentecostal ( don't even ask ). I don't understand why people criticize them so much. They really are good people. I really think there is only one true religion. All of them think they are the ones, not just the JW's. But I have noticed one thing Nimshi about you, you don't really use the Bible much. You should back everything you say with the Bible to have credibility. You mainly use personal opinions or maybe what other people have told you. I think you should read the Bible more and/or use it more. If a person says they are religious but don't use the Bible, my personal opinion, I don't think they are spirit directed. So far the JW's have used the Bible more than anybody else I know. I respect that. You say Russell teachings? Until now, all teachings have been backed up by the bible not by something said by Russell. You are absolutely wrong. So I think there's no more to say here for me. You probably wont see me here posting anymore. Nice talking to you all.

Hey Pastor Why are you still focusing too much on the black death? The black death was one event in Europe. Jesus was referring to multiple events World Wide. Different!. He actually specified wars and hunger too. Is what we see today.

Yes Nimshi I saw the books, As a Pentecostal I even took a "special course" on how to deal with JW's. They put alot of things on my head, like how bad they really were. How they let children die because of the blood. But I saw for myself that it was all lies. That only proved one thing - John 17:14 After seeing the movie "Knock" I decided to investigate about blood transfusions. They are absolutely right about what they say. Benefits all of us to use alternate medicines. You say JW's misinterpret the facts. Your stuck with a mistake Russell made in the past. Tell me what religion you are and I will find a mistake somewhere too. The truth is there are thousands of religions and they all interpret things differently when Jesus only had one way of teaching. Just search for the right one, you might find it. I think I did,


Oh and Pastor AIO: You don't really talk much about the Bible. Are you a religious person?