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Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? - Religion (8) - Nairaland

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by vescucci(m): 12:54am On Jul 01, 2010
I used to like this version of Christianity best mostly because of their simplicity and their practice-what-you-preach nature. Some people find them intrusive but I find them quite nice and I've read and own some of their major publications (Mankind Searchs for God is a very good book and they manage to be as objective as possible). I always read Awake (beautiful source of information) but politely decline Watchtowers cuz they are too, erm, how do say? Pat?

Later I found that other Christians hated them with a passion almost rivaled by their hate of Muslims. They call them things like cult and heretical mongrels. Even my ex had a few bad words for them. This is an unfair position and apart from their don't take blood transfusions even if death stares you in the face bit (reminds me of Sagittarians Battlestar Galactica) and the 144 000 thnigie, I find very little to take offence to. Their positions are lucid and clear and not mind boggling and apologetic.

I have many friends that JW and if I were to recommend a version of Christianity to an alien friend, it'll be JW. The only thing I find a little unsettling is the way it seems as if they're setting things up for the arrival of the anti-christ maybe? Lol, just kidding.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by RWilliams: 12:18pm On Aug 02, 2010
Not sure how to quote an excerpt from another blogger on this forum, help please?
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by RWilliams: 12:39pm On Aug 02, 2010
Quote from my Joe
Do also know your Organisations’ alliance with political powers?

I Guess you mean this, amazing how so many people are just itching to hype something up to try and prove gods people wrong, it is really laughable the time and effort you put in to it grin

The UN "Debacle"

Spokespersons at the Witness' headquarters in Brooklyn, NY, has since explained that:

"Our purpose for registering with the [United Nations] Department of Public Information as a nongovernmental organization (NGO) in 1991 was to have access to research material available on health, ecological, and social problems at the United Nations library facilities. We had been using the library for many-years prior to 1991, but in that year it became necessary to register as an NGO to have continued access. Registration papers filed with the United Nations that we have on file contain no statements that conflict with our Christian beliefs. Moreover, NGOs are informed by the United Nations that 'association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system, nor does it entitle associated organizations or their staff to any kind of privileges, immunities or special status." Still, the Criteria for Association of NGOs-at least in their latest version-contain language that we cannot subscribe to. When we realized this, we immediately withdrew our registration. We are grateful that this matter was brought to our attention." 3
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by RWilliams: 12:42pm On Aug 02, 2010
Also how can you call venerating and worshiping the Murder weapon of Jesus "a minor thing" especially when you realise that Cross worship has many pagan roots, and nothing in the bible alludes to it being a cross.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by MyJoe: 4:01pm On Aug 02, 2010
RWilliams:

Quote from my Joe
Do also know your Organisations’ alliance with political powers?

I Guess you mean this, amazing how so many people are just itching to hype something up to try and  prove gods people wrong, it is really laughable the time and effort you put in to it  grin
Highlighted is the problem. How do you get a man to reason when he has been impregnated with the belief that the reason anyone would say disagreeable things is because of his being chosen by God? And this indoctrination is done using hot button phrases like “God’s people”, “Jehovah’s organization”, “the truth”, and a few others.

As for that jibe about putting time and effort into it, that’s right. I put some time and effort into understanding what makes the JW tick a few years ago in my desire to get a better of understanding of a religion that claims to be uniquely true. You can’t blame me – if there’s a true religion I deserve to find it! But I did find something: what over six million people think is a bridge to God is just another Brooklyn Bridge. Knowing the power of religious indoctrination, especially the clever methods used by the JW to accomplish it, I don’t expect you to pause a moment and reconsider what you believe in and dispense to others. But I don’t think you can blame me, too, for being a goat and refusing to make do with the feel-good sermon retailed at the door and at your meetings and conventions, rather than a sheep who would be led by a kid with a stick, this time, a Bible and some Watchtower and Awake magazines full of prefabricated questions designed to prevent you asking any from your own intellectual faculties. In any case, you expend far more time and effort into writing here and preaching from house from house than I do.

*   I once saw a video titled Purple Triangle. It was first made by some British TV station, I think. I wonder how 17 year old Wilhelm Kuserrow who was shot, his 20 year old brother Wolfgang who was guillotined, August Dickman, and, in fact, all 890 Witnesses who were murdered by the Nazis will regard you for referring to reference to association with a political movement as “hyping something up”.

*   I wonder what response Maureen Mwanawasa (former Zambian first lady) who was disfellowshipped for attending political meetings will give to your reductionism.

*   And I would give anything to see your face as you try to explain to your “brothers and sisters” who were brutally tortured, jailed, imprisoned, and despoiled, in Zimbabwe and Malawi why they were not allowed to carry party cards but the Watchtower Society can carry a UN card.

It appears you, sir, are incapable of comprehending why your church’s alliance with the UN generated so much furore, so I decided to lay it for you as I have above. You see, nobody cares who signs up with the UN. But the Watchtower? Declaring fast and drinking water in hiding is universally frowned upon. And rightly so. So what is laughable, sir, is seeing an adult endowed by God with the gift of reasoning swallowing weak lies and mumbo jumbo without asking questions.

Since you came back with a response I would have expected you to address the important issues I raised like your claim to being the one true religion in the entire world in the light of love, preaching and the other matters; your doctrines which change with phantasmagoric constancy; prophecy; the lie that Christendom’s waters are drying up; the non-disclosure of history; and the other sundry matters raised. After all, those issues bother on the “truth” which you are trying to spread here. But no, you had to dig up that hurriedly cobbled together paragraph that caused me considerable laughter when I first read it six years ago. Anyway, let’s address the “response”, a very weak attempt to explain away a horrendous mistake that cost your organisation hundreds of thousands in membership.

RWilliams:
The UN "Debacle"

Spokespersons at the Witness' headquarters in Brooklyn, NY, has since explained that:

"Our purpose for registering with the [United Nations] Department of Public Information as a nongovernmental organization (NGO) in 1991 was to have access to research material available on health, ecological, and social problems at the United Nations library facilities. We had been using the library for many-years prior to 1991, but in that year it became necessary to register as an NGO to have continued access.
If the above contains the simple truth, why is the leadership of your church so sensitive about this matter, such that any Witness that discussed it with another risked being expelled?

Access to the UN information system was always available through UNBIS.net. But let’s assume, without conceding, that the society needed a party card to attend a library. Would that have made it right, considering the stand on “Christian neutrality”? But it just follows a pattern, something I believe you are unaware of. If you wish to know what I am talking about, look for any detailed report, that is not written by Watchtower, of the 1918 court trials of the leadership of your church and pay attention to the statements made by Rutherford. Then find and read the Declaration of Facts written by Rutherford and read at a convention in 1933. Consider, too, why it was okay for Witnesses in pre-70’s US to carry US passports which had a statement on them that stated that by signing you agree to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, but it was wrong for Witness kids to sing the national anthem. After reviewing the above (there are plently more instances if you want them) perhaps, just perhaps, you will be helped see how clearly the leadership of your organisation respects the rules it makes and pushes down the throats of the rank and file.

RWilliams:
Registration papers filed with the United Nations that we have on file contain no statements that conflict with our Christian beliefs.
The above is untrue. The Watchtower agreed to support and respect the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. They also agreed that they would have the commitment and means to conduct effective information programmes with their followers and to a broader audience about UN activities. And the UN Charter does contain statements that conflict with your "Christian" beliefs.

RWilliams:
Moreover, NGOs are informed by the United Nations that 'association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system, nor does it entitle associated organizations or their staff to any kind of privileges, immunities or special status."
What does that ^^^ mean?  undecided What privileges, immunities or special status did Watchtower want?

RWilliams:
Still, the Criteria for Association of NGOs-at least in their latest version-contain language that we cannot subscribe to. When we realized this, we immediately withdrew our registration. We are grateful that this matter was brought to our attention." 3
That ^^^ is a classic. It is a dubious one I find highly reprehensible for any leadership, particularly a religious one, to put out. Is it possible Williams can’t see what the person that wrote it is up to?

Anyway, it is a fact that the Watchtower withdrew a day after Stephen Bates exposed its UN membership in an article in The Guardian of London. It was the Bates article that prompted the hurried withdrawal. There was no change of language in UN criteria for Association that day. The criteria there are now are the same as there were when WT joined up.

RWilliams:

Also how can you call venerating and worshiping the Murder weapon of Jesus "a minor thing"
For many Christians I know, the most important thing in the world is that Jesus died for their sins. But doing a forensic analysis of the murder weapon like an investigating police officer preparing to face a hotshot attorney is just the sort of thing Watchtower is good at. I guess it helps to sustain the illusion of being different from the rest, besides providing the coursework that gives the rank and file plenty to do. You brought up the issue of trivialities, agreeing with many sincere Christians that doctrines are not that important. Now you make a turnaround and quibble in Watchtower fashion. And where did I say anything about venerating and worshiping, which is clearly a different matter?

RWilliams:
especially when you realise that Cross worship has many pagan roots, and nothing in the bible alludes to it being a cross.
I would like to see the shirt you are putting on right now and maybe then I would be able to tell you what has pagan roots or not. As for the Bible saying whether the murder weapon of Jesus was a cross or a tree, maybe when I feel up to talking Greek and Latin. But I would bet you don’t know jack about that. Anything the Watchtower Society says. . .  smiley

RWilliams:

Not sure how to quote an excerpt from another blogger on this forum, help please?
From the Reply field, you need to scroll down to see previous posts. Click on "Insert Quote" (at the right hand side) for any post you wish to quote.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Googler(m): 7:19pm On Aug 03, 2010
^^^ E take it easy, now! The problems you highlight are not restricted to the members of any single religion. You can pick up any other, take it apart and find the issues.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by RWilliams: 1:30pm On Aug 05, 2010
MyJoe, my apologies, I should not have said what I did about your stance on some things being laughable, I guess whatever they are, history has shown that ones beliefs are something that can bring out the best and also the worst in any of us.

The following from your last post:
[i]It appears you, sir, are incapable of comprehending why your church’s alliance with the UN generated so much furore, so I decided to lay it for you as I have above. You see, nobody cares who signs up with the UN. But the Watchtower? Declaring fast and drinking water in hiding is universally frowned upon. And rightly so. So what is laughable, sir, is seeing an adult endowed by God with the gift of reasoning swallowing weak lies and mumbo jumbo without asking questions.

Since you came back with a response I would have expected you to address the important issues I raised like your claim to being the one true religion in the entire world in the light of love, preaching and the other matters; your doctrines which change with phantasmagoric constancy; prophecy; the lie that Christendom’s waters are drying up; the non-disclosure of history; and the other sundry matters raised. After all, those issues bother on the “truth” which you are trying to spread here. But no, you had to dig up that hurriedly cobbled together paragraph that caused me considerable laughter when I first read it six years ago. Anyway, let’s address the “response”, a very weak attempt to explain away a horrendous mistake that cost your organisation hundreds of thousands in membership.[/i]I hope to respond to this in time, however I have a small business to run and a family to look after, so just do not have the time to make an in depth response,  I will ASAP.
In brief, though, I have been a JW most of my life, but did spend a long time questioning and, yes, doubting not just their teachings but even the bible itself, I believe we all have to do that at some stage of our life. I believe that any side of an argument can, even if wrong, can be well supported by someone well worded. I feel the bible is deeper than any human will ever totally fathom, and it even alludes to the fact that we will never truly understand the workings of the creator.
Jesus himself foretold that after he left this earth, the true teaching would not be held fast to. Jehovah’s witnesses I believe are doing their best by in depth analysis of the bible to align themselves with the way of life Jesus Christ purported. Any changes they make are because they come to a deeper understanding of something, and rather than dogmatically stick to their guns, they move forward.
Yes, sometimes they have got carried away, and read more into something than they should have, however, they are imperfect humans and we can all tend to do that. Even if it is god’s organisation on earth, it is still made up of imperfect humans, even the apostles jumped to wrong conclusions at times and they were handpicked by Jesus himself.
I have looked deeply into the questionings behind 1914, 607, 1925, 1975 etc, and basically it comes down to individuals all too eager for something to happen, (Mind you 1914 cannot be ignored as a turning point, and too much of a co-incidence that the first sign of his presence Jesus gave was beyond missing in that year). But,  They are preaching the good news of god’s kingdom “ON EARTH AS IN HEAVEN” ,  no one can say that one of their relatives was killed in war by a Jehovah’s Witness, there is peace among all races amongst Jehovah’s Witnesses. All glory is given to god, you will never see an author on their literature, no one is getting rich from it, and no one is given expensive garb or fanciful titles. There is   no pompousness or ceremoniousness about their worship, go to a meeting, and you will find friendly people learning how god wants them to live. Go to a large assembly, there is not many places where you can see tens of thousands of  people and there is no need for security, no litter,  you can leave your camera on your seat for an hour and know it will still be there, you won’t hear anyone angry, or swearing, you will get a feeling of a peaceable people, doing their best to live by the standards set in the bible.
I actually sense a change for the better in the JW religion over the last year or so, if you read the last few watchtowers, or the new book, “Come be my Follower” about how to imitate Jesus, even if you only read it objectively, you can’t help but get a feeling that it is being done for a good purpose, there is no malicious intent of brainwashing, deceit, hoodwinking, or any other underhanded motivation, and it really is just trying to help people to become better people by following Christs example.
You seem bent on dragging as much up as you can to discredit  JW’s, almost sourly for some reason, when really they are doing a lot of good in the world.
As for the UN, they did not “join the UN” as you put it, the DPI is just that, a useful department of Public Information, and if you check on the UN site, it even states that being a NGO affiliated with the DPI, does not tie you to the UN, other than to support and respect the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. Jesus said we should support and respect the authorities, unless it comes to “obeying gods rule rather than mans” When it comes to the third Reich, or Malawian party cards, they were working directly against god’s will, and if those Christians were “Duped” at least they were “duped” into staying peaceful with each other and held there integrity for many til death, instead of joining in the massacres like the members of so many other lip-service pago-christain religions.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by MyJoe: 6:15pm On Aug 06, 2010
RWilliams:

MyJoe, my apologies, I should not have said what I did about your stance on some things being laughable, I guess whatever they are, history has shown that ones beliefs are something that can bring out the best and also the worst in any of us.
No hard feelings.

RWilliams:
The following from your last post:
It appears you, sir, are incapable of comprehending why your church’s alliance with the UN generated so much furore, so I decided to lay it for you as I have above. You see, nobody cares who signs up with the UN. But the Watchtower? Declaring fast and drinking water in hiding is universally frowned upon. And rightly so. So what is laughable, sir, is seeing an adult endowed by God with the gift of reasoning swallowing weak lies and mumbo jumbo without asking questions.

Since you came back with a response I would have expected you to address the important issues I raised like your claim to being the one true religion in the entire world in the light of love, preaching and the other matters; your doctrines which change with phantasmagoric constancy; prophecy; the lie that Christendom’s waters are drying up; the non-disclosure of history; and the other sundry matters raised. After all, those issues bother on the “truth” which you are trying to spread here. But no, you had to dig up that hurriedly cobbled together paragraph that caused me considerable laughter when I first read it six years ago. Anyway, let’s address the “response”, a very weak attempt to explain away a horrendous mistake that cost your organisation hundreds of thousands in membership.[/i]I hope to respond to this in time, however I have a small business to run and a family to look after, so just do not have the time to make an in depth response,  I will ASAP.
Ok.

RWilliams:
In brief, though, I have been a JW most of my life, but did spend a long time questioning and, yes, doubting not just their teachings but even the bible itself,
I am interested in this, please. If you are, I will like to discuss the Bible with you to find out what convinces you about it. We can do so in this thread or I can open another.

RWilliams:
I believe we all have to do that at some stage of our life. I believe that any side of an argument can, even if wrong, can be well supported by someone well worded.
This is true, but facts, verifiable facts, have a distinct colour.

RWilliams:
I feel the bible is deeper than any human will ever totally fathom,
Have you considered the possibility that it is in the mind. I mean, if you raise a kid on the Quran he would say exactly the same. Now, if you have read the Quran you will agree with me it doesn’t add up at all.

RWilliams:
and it even alludes to the fact that we will never truly understand the workings of the creator.
Yes, nobody can fully understand the workings of the Creator. That is one of my main problems with organized religion. They know it all. And on what basis do they claim this knowledge? A book!

RWilliams:
Jesus himself foretold that after he left this earth, the true teaching would not be held fast to. Jehovah’s witnesses I believe are doing their best by in depth analysis of the bible to align themselves with the way of life Jesus Christ purported.
I believe that the founder of your church was sincere. I also believe a good number of the men – not all! – who inherited his authority and came to be known as the Governing Body were/are also sincere. Misguided, yes, but sincere.

RWilliams:
Any changes they make are because they come to a deeper understanding of something, and rather than dogmatically stick to their guns, they move forward.
I believe I have sufficiently addressed the huge problems I have with the changes in earlier posts. You see, Mr Williams, if you write down all the things I said in the past and begin to compare them, I will probably hide my face. (That is how it is with humans, because of our limited knowledge.) But, then, I don’t go around telling people I am the only channel uses to communicate with mankind at this time! I have never claimed to be the prophet God has raised to gently lead the world to him. You see why I hold the leadership of your church to a higher standard than myself?

Another problem is that the leadership of your church sees nothing wrong at all in changing doctrines on issues to do with life and death – like blood transfusion. Now, you can take blood parts. How many died from not taking them in the past? Today blood parts are “scripturally” okay. Tomorrow they are not. The day after, they are. The following day they are not. You call that deeper understanding, Mr. Williams? And all these changes are made at the time you tell us is crucial, being the last days.

I personally do not see how anyone can review WT changes without coming to the ineluctable conclusion that the Watchtower Society are just guessing things like everyone else. They have no spiritual insights at all. They claim to be spirit-guided but not inspired. Can you make any sense of that? No, really, can you?

RWilliams:
Yes, sometimes they have got carried away, and read more into something than they should have, however, they are imperfect humans and we can all tend to do that. Even if it is god’s organisation on earth, it is still made up of imperfect humans, even the apostles jumped to wrong conclusions at times and they were handpicked by Jesus himself.
The above is true, but it doesn’t tell the whole story. The prophets, according to the Bible, heard from God correctly. Abraham, Moses, Ezekiel, Daniel, John and the others, did not change their words every other day. And I don’t expect you to agree here that your church leaders have not been entirely honest, a fact I have demonstrated. Now that’s a different matter from getting carried away.

RWilliams:
I have looked deeply into the questionings behind 1914, 607, 1925, 1975 etc, and basically it comes down to individuals all too eager for something to happen,
This is true. (Between you and me, Franz should never have held any major post in that church, much less membership or the church’s ruling council and then the church’s presidency. He was much too influenced by Second Adventism [the originators of 1914] to think properly for one second of his adult life. Anyway, it was Russell himself [also a Second Adventist at heart] who started the date setting business. But I think your current leaders have learnt the lesson about trying to force the hand of God. They have since told us that “this generation” no longer refers to people born or who were alive at any certain time, but those who heard God’s message and refused to heed it. Meanwhile they quote those they have long dismissed as “Christendom’s scholars” while making these changes.)

RWilliams:
(Mind you 1914 cannot be ignored as a turning point, and too much of a co-incidence that the first sign of his presence Jesus gave was beyond missing in that year).
There is a possibility, of course, that you know something I don’t here. Otherwise, 1914 can and should be ignored as a turning point. I  know that is hard to even contemplate when you have spent a very long time hearing 1914-this, 1914-that. But there is no biblical basis to believe 1914 was significant or that Jesus started ruling in heaven that year. None has been shown to me. There is none. When you were reading up on 1914, did you by any chance come across the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon and the Davidic kingship ended in 587/586BC and not 607 as taught by the Watchtower? If no, go into a library and do some research, for once. If you are in London, the British Library at Euston Road would be an excellent place. But of course you can find materials anywhere once you know what you are looking for. I have a lot of data on this 1914 business I can email to you if you wish. Maybe when you are done with your research you and I can discuss why a leadership that wants us to rate it highly on sincerity knowingly continues to use the 607 date in its publications. And maybe on your own you will see clearly the reason: once 607BC is gone, 1914 crashes. Once that happens, no 1918 and 1919. Without 1918 and 1919, there is no authority for the Governing Body to wield, and hence, no Jehovah’s Witnesses!

RWilliams:
But,  They are preaching the good news of god’s kingdom “ON EARTH AS IN HEAVEN” ,  no one can say that one of their relatives was killed in war by a Jehovah’s Witness, there is peace among all races amongst Jehovah’s Witnesses. All glory is given to god, you will never see an author on their literature, no one is getting rich from it, and no one is given expensive garb or fanciful titles. There is   no pompousness or ceremoniousness about their worship, go to a meeting, and you will find friendly people learning how god wants them to live. Go to a large assembly, there is not many places where you can see tens of thousands of  people and there is no need for security, no litter,  you can leave your camera on your seat for an hour and know it will still be there, you won’t hear anyone angry, or swearing, you will get a feeling of a peaceable people, doing their best to live by the standards set in the bible.
The above is largely true. But honest and peaceful people are not exclusive to the JW. And personal items do disappear occasionally from seats at Kingdom Halls and conventions. But no one can deny that in JW messages, there is a lot of emphasis on morality and peaceful neighbourliness, something many church leaders can’t bother to teach their flock these days. Still, I must tell you that a conversation with a typical Witness where I live may not reflect the image you are portraying. Hypocrisy is an going problem in society and religion and the JW is no exception. If I am going into a business with a Witness I would be just as careful as it was a Catholic or a Moslem or an atheist.

Let me be clear about something. It is perfectly fine for someone to be religious. Religions have the potential to make someone a good person. I have been told, and have read of, former killers and drug addicts who changed their lives after joining a religion – Catholic, Pentecostal, JW, Islam, etc. But religions also create problems in people’s lives. Anglicans and Pentecostals are made to part with 10% of their money, which, unfortunately is mostly not appropriated according to the manner such moneys were appropriated in Bible times. Jehovah’s Witnesses are made to refuse blood transfusion even at the risk of dying. Members are turned into robots who read the Bible everyday but must funnel it through JW literature. Members will not do anything about evil in the world around them, but will just go about preaching and waiting patiently for God to come and sort out things. Even if Hitler is invading, just pick up your Bible and go knocking doors. Let’s not even talk about Islam.

Neither do I believe that being a Witness makes you incur the disfavour of God as long as you don’t allow the burdens it heaps on your shoulders (like every religion does) to stop you from having time to practice the basic love God enjoins upon all mankind: love your neighbour as yourself. If God is displeased with Witnesses for certain things, like throwing their lives away when a transfusion could have saved them, I think the leadership of the church will bear much of the responsibility. Of course, those who had the capacity to know but chose to follow blindly won’t go free.

So what am I saying? That being a JW is just like being in any other religion. Full stop. I am hoping that after reading me you will, at least, be sensible about things and start seeing other Christians and your fellow Christians, people like you searching for the truth and believing they have it, rather than as ignorant poor photocopies of Christianity as you currently see them. And that if you have any relatives who are former Witnesses you will stop seeing them as walking corpses awaiting slaughter at Armageddon as you currently see them. The Witnesses are not up there as the one true religion, the people for God’s name having his favour and a responsibility to make him known. When you die God will judge on how much love you showed to your neighbour, not whether you were a JW or a Catholic. All these religions were invented by men and ought not to be taken to too seriously.

RWilliams:
I actually sense a change for the better in the JW religion over the last year or so, if you read the last few watchtowers, or the new book, “Come be my Follower” about how to imitate Jesus, even if you only read it objectively, you can’t help but get a feeling that it is being done for a good purpose, there is no malicious intent of brainwashing, deceit, hoodwinking, or any other underhanded motivation, and it really is just trying to help people to become better people by following Christs example.
I promise to get this book and read it as soon as I can make time for it.

RWilliams:
You seem bent on dragging as much up as you can to discredit  JW’s, almost sourly for some reason, when really they are doing a lot of good in the world.
I have actually exercised a lot of restraint, Mr Williams. I have. I doubt a long time Witness like you know the feel of being at the other side of the table, being told that you are one of the world wallowing in darkness, having not found “the truth”. It’s the claims you make I am REACTING to. No, I am not dragging up as much as I can. [i]As much as I have
will two books. I don’t know what as much as I can will amount to.

RWilliams:
As for the UN, they did not “join the UN” as you put it, the DPI is just that, a useful department of Public Information, and if you check on the UN site, it even states that being a NGO affiliated with the DPI, does not tie you to the UN, other than to support and respect the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
I agree they did not become a member of the UN sitting at the Security Council or the General Assembly. But are you aware, Mr Williams, that if you attend a church service, without “joining the church” you are likely to face disciplinary action? Anyway, let’s restate what the Witnesses did and then anyone can make what they like of it: They registered with the UN as an associated NGO. To be allowed to do that, you are required to show evidence that you support the UN Charter and have the capacity to promote awareness about UN activities with a large audience. Read the UN Charter? I leave it there.

RWilliams:
Jesus said we should support and respect the authorities, unless it comes to “obeying gods rule rather than mans” When it comes to the third Reich, or Malawian party cards, they were working directly against god’s will,
I fail to see how carrying a party card without actually involving yourself in party activities would have been against God’s will, even the JW interpretation of God’s will, whereas involving yourself in a political movement’s activities by promoting awareness about it is okay.

RWilliams:
and if those Christians were “Duped” at least they were “duped” into staying peaceful with each other and held there integrity for many til death, instead of joining in the massacres like the members of so many other lip-service pago-christain religions.
Don’t lump things together. Your brothers in Germany were the ones who refused to take part in Hitler’s satanic bloodshed. The ones in Malawi were merely asked to purchase party cards.

Besides, your reasoning here is faulty. God says “love your neighbour as yourself”. It is written in our hearts – no Bible required. Only a moral weakling needs to be duped into complying with this divine and natural injunction. Only a moral wimp needs to be promised heaven or a wonderful new earth to get him to do the right thing by humanity.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Perrito4u: 4:16am On Nov 23, 2010
@MyJoe

How come you don't back up anything you say with the bible? I don't see you mentioned anything directly from the scriptures? Are you a christian?
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by LagosShia: 9:08am On Nov 23, 2010
RWilliams:

Spokespersons at the Witness' headquarters in Brooklyn, NY, has since explained that:

"Our purpose for registering with the [United Nations] Department of Public Information as a nongovernmental organization (NGO) in 1991 was to have access to research material available on health, ecological, and social problems at the United Nations library facilities. We had been using the library for many-years prior to 1991, but in that year it became necessary to register as an NGO to have continued access. Registration papers filed with the United Nations that we have on file contain no statements that conflict with our Christian beliefs. Moreover, NGOs are informed by the United Nations that 'association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system, nor does it entitle associated organizations or their staff to any kind of privileges, immunities or special status." Still, the Criteria for Association of NGOs-at least in their latest version-contain language that we cannot subscribe to. When we realized this, we immediately withdrew our registration. We are grateful that this matter was brought to our attention." 3




THE WATCH-TOWER (ORGANIZATION OF THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES) LETTER OF SUPPORT FOR ADOLF HITLER AND THEY YET CLAIM THEY ARE POLITICALLY NEUTRAL AND VICTIMS OF NAZI PERSECUTION.ENJOY READIN!

http://www.yadlachimusa.org.il/Index.asp?ArticleID=577&CategoryID=203




Jehovah's Witnesses and the Jews
One of the most aggressive missionary groups operating today in the State of Israel is the sect which calls itself 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'.
Lately, this sect started an aggressive publicity campaign in order to build for itself a positive image in the eyes of the public. They hope to succeed based on the fact that most people in Israel are unaware of the true nature of this sect and of its sordid history. They’re pouring a lot of money into this publicity campaign from their vast resources (their income in USA alone is surpassing $1.25 billion dollars).
As a part of this propaganda they sent an expensively produced book and a videocassette to every member of the Knesset. There they describe in great detail the suffering that members of the sect underwent during the Nazi regime. Our brochure is the first modest step in exposing the true face of this fanatical sect, which bases all of its propaganda on historical revisionism and outright lies.
Aharon Rubin & D. F.   

­ Jehovah’s Witnesses and their conflict with the world

  In contrast with the situation in Israel, in the rest of the world 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' are well known, and intensely disliked.
“Of all modern religions, the group which has experienced the most conflicts from citizens of their own country are members of the modern sect known today as the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses.'(1) Noted sociologist, Seymour M. Lipset concluded from his study of attitudes towards minorities that the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' were among the most disliked of all religious minorities he researched - the group average showed that Americans disliked them more than even the most hated ethnic minorities.(2) 1990 study by Barna Research Group found that a whopping 74% had a negative view of the sect. In comparison, 88% had a favorable opinion of Protestants, 85% of Catholics and 84% of Jews. The only other group for which this amount of antagonism existed was the 'Hare Krishnas.'(3) The attitude to the sect outside of the USA is even more negative. In the words of one researcher:
“The Watchtower (one of the names of the sect) has experienced conflicts in almost every nation of the world - this writer was unable to locate a single country where they have not experienced problems. At one time or another they were banned or their activities severely restricted in almost every nation of the world, and are still banned in twenty six countries according to their official world-wide activities report published in 1995.” (4)

In the United States alone, members of the sect were repeatedly charged in the courts of law, with among other things, blasphemy, ridicule of other religions and of authorities, inciting violence, breach of peace, desecration of the American flag, criminal syndicalism and sedition.(4) In July 1940 the government of Canada banned the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' outright. The law, passed under the War Measures Act, was vigorously enforced.(5) According to recently declassified wartime documents, the reason for the ban was: “The federal government described 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' as subversive and offensive religious zealots,  in a secret report given to special parliamentarian committees in 1942”.(6) The government report on the sect concluded that, “probably no other organization is so offensive in its methods, working as it does under the guise of Christianity.”(6)

What are the reasons for so much world-wide antagonism to a rather unremarkable and pedestrian Christian sect?
Historians and researchers who studied the subject concluded that the major reason for all the conflicts was the attitude and teachings of the leaders of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'. Writes Dr. C.E. King: “many of the teachings have led the sect into bitter conflict with civil authorities all over the world, in democratic as well as in totalitarian states.”(7) In the words of Dr. J. Bergman Ph.D.: “Especially during the presidency of J.F. Rutherford (second president of the sect), many articles in Watchtower publications were deliberately designed to stir up trouble. Rutherford’s vitriolic attacks were not only against the government, but also the clergy,  He repeatedly called them scum, roosters, jackasses, harlots, s.o.b.s, even advocating violence and encouraging Witnesses to stir up trouble. Many of the articles would today, no doubt, engender legal action against the Watchtower with claims that they were inciting religious hatred. And the claimants would likely prevail, at least in American courts.”(4) Articles in the 'Golden Age' and 'Consolation' (official publications of the sect) depicted members of other religions in the vilest of terms, and numerous illustrations showed them in a slanderous light. (4),(cool
An American history book describes 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' as scornful of all other religions and notes that “members of the sect repeatedly collided with the law.”(9)
A well-known researcher summarizes the attitude of the sect to the outside world from 1922 to the present as “the extremist attitude”, “it could only be interpreted as complete negation of all governments, religions, churches and international organizations.”(10)
What is the root of so much hatred for everybody outside the sect?!
Explains Dr. Bergman - “The major reason for their troubles was because Witnesses are taught to believe that all governments and all religions are of Satan - and under pain of excommunication all of them must follow Watchtower policy.”(4) Another researcher observes: “Resentment ,  attached themselves to the Jehovah’s Witnesses partly because of vehemence of their religious attacks on the established order and partly because of the militancy of their proselytizing,  they were,  preaching that the evil triumvirate of organized churches, business and the State are the instruments of Satan.”(11) Rutherford “declared open war on the State, in which he saw the handiwork of Satan.”(12)
In the Watchtower’s own words, they teach that: “All organizations on the earth that are in the opposition to God and his kingdom (all religious and political organizations outside of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses') therefore, necessarily take the name “Babylon” and “harlot.”(13)
And what is their ultimate goal? They openly declare that they work for the establishing of Worldwide Theocratic Government.(14) In other words, replacement of all existing governments by worldwide rule of Governing Body of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'. The members of the sect joyfully wait for the day when “the rest of humanity would be condemned to death; whoever did not join 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' would have no hope of receiving God’s mercy and would be destroyed.”(15)

Jehovah’s Witnesses and Anti-Semitism

As Jews there is another aspect of this sect’s ideology that should worry us. This is that teachings of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' are infused with huge doses of anti-Semitism! Of course, members of the sect are doing everything to hide this fact, so it wouldn’t interfere with their attempts to missionize the unsuspecting Jews.
Here we will bring some blatantly anti-Semitic statements which all appeared in official publications of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'.
First, we must emphasize, as we have already mentioned, all members of the sect must accept all the views of their leadership under penalty of total excommunication. In other words all members of the sect have to espouse anti-Semitism! The fact that this sect decided to call itself 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' is ample testimony to their views. The expression 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' never appears in the Hebrew Bible. What does appear several times is God telling the Jewish nation “you are my witnesses.”(16) Anybody opening the verses will see that the term “witnesses” refers clearly and exclusively to the nation of Israel! In 1931 Josef Franklin Rutherford, president of the sect for 26 years, decided that the Jewish nation has finished it’s role in history, and belongs in the dustbin of history. He declared that the Hebrew prophets in all their prophecies had in mind only him and his sect.(17) In their official publications they openly declare that they and only they are “the true Israel”.(18) This ideology is known to historians and theologians as the “Replacement Theology”. After the Holocaust many Christian churches and groups admitted that it is anti-Semitic in essence, and disavowed it. For example thus writes Dr. David Allen Lewis, a well-known Christian author and lecturer: “Replacement theology is inconsistent. It places all the curses of the Old Testament on the heads of Jews of today, and transfers all the blessings to the “new Israel”, the church. Replacement doctrines are theological anti-Semitism,  (emphasis in the original).
These doctrines make is easier for the blatant, active anti-Semites to persecute and kill the Jews. The doctrines of replacement and contempt led directly to the Holocaust.” ('Christians and Israel' pp. 10-11) But 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' today continue to espouse these anti-Semitic doctrines with even greater fervor.
Rutherford in his book 'Enemies' writes about Jews “ultra-selfish men called 'Jews' who look only for personal gain.”(19)
In the same book he writes that the Jews “practice religion, of which the Devil is the author.”(20) In another book he again writes about the Jews: “Be it known once and for all that those profiteering, conscienceless, selfish men who call themselves Jews, and who control the greater portion of the finances of the world and the business of the world, ”(21)
Speaking at 'Bible Students'(22) convention in Winnipeg, Manitoba in the early 1920’s, Rutherford described a Jew as “the hooked-nosed, stooped-shouldered little individual who stands on the street corner trying to gyp you out of every nickel you’ve got.”(23) We see here clear examples of vulgar and primitive anti-Semitism. In yet another book he wrote that Jews lost favor with God when they murdered Jesus.(24)
Nowadays 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' continue to disseminate huge amounts of anti-Seminic materials. As a matter of fact, they’re one of the biggest distributors of hate literature in human history. A few examples will suffice. In 1982 they published a book called “You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth.” It was published in 15 million copies and distributed worldwide in 55 languages. On pages 25-26 of the book we can see what is their current opinion of the Jews. Among other things it says there of the Jews:
“Was God really their father? Did God accept their form of religion? Not at all!”,  Jews are “from their father the Devil, and they wish to do his desires.” The Jewish religion “served the interest of the Devil.”And they concluded that because of their evil, the Jews “were on the way to destruction”.
In another official publication from 1984 (25) they say that 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' “have no intention to falling into the sad course of the Jews”, because the Jews “exchanged the truth of God for the lie.”(26)
And these are only some of the many crude anti-Semitic statements found in the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' literature.

Jehovah’s Witnesses and Nazis

Anyone coming in contact with 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' will sooner or later be reminded of how terribly they suffered in Nazi Germany. In correspondence with government officials, journalists, etc., often totally out of context and unrelated to the subject discussed, it will be mentioned again and again. Apparently it is regarded as some sort of magic argument, which will immediately erase all the evil the sect has committed and open all the doors for them. In the 1990’s they even staged several propaganda shows aimed at 'milking' as much sympathy and benefits from the authorities and general public out of what happened to them during the Nazi regime. Even in the State of Israel they’re not ashamed of trying to get benefits using this argument. The 'Jerusalem Post' quotes Professor B. Beit-Hallahmi that the sect successfully used the claim of their suffering during the Nazi period to gain material benefits. He said, it was one of the reasons that a court ordered the Tel-Aviv Municipality to grant them a building permit for their missionary center.
If all the claims that 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' bring forth would be true, then all we would be faced with would be shameless exploitation of tragic deaths. But the reality is much worse than that. 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' are guilty of horrible distortion of facts and of historical revisionism! First, let’s see what their claims are, as presented by propagandists of the sect.
In their official publication ('Watchtower' May 15, 1975 p. 294) they write “thousands of European Jews can testify that one religious group in Germany underwent persecution equal to that heaped upon the Jews: ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’ ”.
But equating their suffering to that of the Jews, apparently wasn’t enough for them. In another publication they went further: “, a horrible Nazi persecution of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses', worse than that of the Jews”.(27)
But even that apparently was just not enough!
In yet another publication of the sect(28) under the headline 'The Holocaust - victims or martyrs?' they 'kindly' explain that “all those who suffered as a result of the Holocaust were victims, but only a minority were truly martyrs.” Jews just like Poles, Russians and Ukrainians were merely victims. “But the case of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' in Europe was different.” They and only they were true martyrs of the Holocaust.
Audacity more base than that is hard to imagine!
According to the above-mentioned bombastic claims, we might have thought that millions of members of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' perished during the Nazi period. But in the 1974 Yearbook of the sect they admitted that a total of 2,000 of their members were sent to concentration camps, and from these 838 died or were executed.(29)
It is impossible to take lightly the suffering of even one human being. But the idea that deaths of a few hundred members of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' is more horrible that the death of 6 million Jews during the Holocaust, could only sprout in the distorted minds of the leaders of that sect!
  Worse than that, the Watchtower Society seems to view the Nazi horrors simply as ammunition in its wars against other religions. Time after time they repeat that all Christian groups cooperated with Hitler, and only 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' were, in their own words, “the one voice in the midst of silence.”(30) We will not deal here with the subject of what all Christian churches did or did not do during the Holocaust, but will attempt to establish what did the leaders of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' do during that era.
First of all, it has to be clarified once and for all that 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' were never against Nazis! In one of their official publications from 1984 they profusely praise themselves on their behavior during the Nazi regime. The height of praise that they could think of writing about themselves was that “theological principles were adhered to; Witnesses remained “neutral”…(31)(emphasis ours). In other words at the time when all the free world was fighting against the Nazi monstrosity, 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' were neutral! Can you imagine moral blindness more extreme than that ?! And they’re still proud of it!

But the truth is even more sordid that that. The fact is that the leaders of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' tried to co-operate with the Nazi regime. For that purpose they distributed millions of copies of anti-Semitic materials in Germany. And only after rejection by Hitler, having no other choice, they came out against Nazis.
This is the chronological order of events:
On January 30, 1933 Hitler came to power in Germany. On April 4, 1933, the German police seized the sect’s offices in the city of Magdeburg. The reason for the seizure, for sure, wasn’t any anti-Nazi activity by 'Jehovah’s Witnesses', because there simply wasn’t any such activity. In the book 'Encyclopedia of the Holocaust' (published by 'Yad Vashem') it’s written about the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' that before the years 1933-1935 “there isn’t any evidence of any real action by them against the regime.”(32) The reasons for Nazi persecution were probably the refusal of some members of the sect to join the German army, and the known philosophy of the sect, which completely refuses to recognize any government or rule. Nazis knew that all members of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' had loyalties to another totalitarian regime (the sect’s headquarters in Brooklyn) and did not consider themselves citizens of the German State. Their refusal to join the German army also didn’t come from any opposition to Nazis per se, because in the same time members of the sect refused to join American, Canadian and British armies, fighting against the Nazis. As we already mentioned, that was one of the reasons they were outlawed in Canada during WWII. At the same time they were also outlawed in Australia.
And now leaders of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' are cynically trying to claim that the reason for Nazi persecution was “favorable comments in earlier Watch Tower publication about the Jewish people and strong denunciations of anti-Semitism.”(33) In light of the many anti-Semitic statements from Watch Tower publications, which were quoted above, it sounds more than ridiculous!
As a response to seizure of their Magdeburg branch, leaders of the sect organized an assembly in Berlin, on June 25, 1933. The goal of the assembly was clear – to publicly declare that the Nazis have nothing to fear from 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' and to declare support for Hitler’s regime. Two leaders of the sect, J.F. Rutherford and N. Knorr especially came from America to see how they can achieve this goal.(34) (35)
The assembly unanimously adopted a special statement, written by the leaders of the sect, 'Declaration of Facts.'(34) A personal letter of J.F. Rutherford (president of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses') to Hitler accompanied the 'Declaration of Facts.'(34) 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' themselves translated the 'Declaration of Facts' from the original German into English and published it in their yearbook in 1934.(36) In all their historical falsifications 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' always skip the contents of these two documents and hope that nobody will ever find out.
The truth is that the contents of both of these documents are profoundly repulsive. They are exceedingly anti-Semitic and show the clear attempt by 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' to cooperate with Hitler.
Let’s let the documents speak for themselves(37).
Before they get to the main point, the write under the sub-section entitled 'Jews':
“That is the same class to whom Jesus referred as his persecutors… it was the Jewish clergy, that is to say, the Pharisees and priests, that violently opposed him and persecuted him and caused him to be charged with all manner of crimes and offenses… Jesus told them that they were in fact representatives of Satan the Devil.”(38)

They continue:
“The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business Oppressors… Such is exactly our position.”(39) “Big Business… proceed from the Devil”(40)

Whom exactly do they mean, when they say “Big Business”?
They themselves clearly explain:
“It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations.”(41)

We see here a plain example of vulgar anti-Semitism.
After the leaders of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' finished explaining to Hitler what they really think of the Jews, comes the call to cooperation on the mutual basis of anti-Semitism:
“Instead of being against the principles advocated by the Government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles… A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications…”(42)

It is superfluous to explain what were “the very high ideals” of Nazis, that 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' endorsed with such enthusiasm.
This is how the 'Declaration of Facts' was summarized in the monumental 'The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust' :
“An assembly of 'Bible Students' (the name of the sect then) in Germany was capable of declaring that there was actually no disagreement between them and the National-Socialist government… and that they’re just as anti-Semitic as the Nazi regime.”(43)

Millions of copies of this hate tract were published and distributed throughout Germany(44), and without a doubt fanned the flames of anti-Semitism even further.
And this exceedingly repulsive document comes from people who dare to claim that they were, in their words, the “one voice in the middle of the silence” against the Nazis!(30) One voice indeed!

A personal letter of J.F. Rutherford to Hitler, which accompanied the 'Declaration of Facts', was equally revolting. After addressing Hitler as “Most Honored Mr. Chancellor”, they get down to business:
“…administration of the Watch Tower Society is and in the past has been outstandingly friendly to Germany… …The administration of our Society not only refused to participate in the horror propaganda against Germany, but it took a position against this. This is emphasized by the attached Declaration, which refers to the fact that the circles which led [in promoting] horror propaganda in the United States (commercialist Jews and Catholics) are also the most eager persecutors of our Society’s work and it’s administration. …Bible students are fighting for the same high, ethical goals and ideals that the National Government of the German Reichproclaimed… At the convention, it was stated that there are no opposing views in the relationship between German Bible students and the National Government of the German Reich, but that to the contrary … these are in complete harmony with the similar goals of the National Government of the German Reich.”(45)
Later in the same letter they explain with which Nazi goals they’re in complete harmony:
“The [Nazi] Party, as such, represents the viewpoint of positive Christianity without associating itself with a specific confession. It opposes the Jewish-materialist spirit domestically and abroad…”(45)
Truly “one voice” against Nazis!

The Nazis were not impressed by this attempt at cooperation by the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' and rejected such unwanted partners. And only then, having no other choice, did the leaders of the sect come out against the Nazis.

And now propagandists of the sect are busy distorting historical facts and covering them up. All this so as to paint themselves as innocent victims instead of would-be partners of Hitler.

Dr. Christine King is a historian who, among other things, studied the conduct of “Jehovah’s Witnesses” during the WWII. Propagandists of the sect love to quote her at every opportunity when she describes the suffering of the ordinary members of the sect in the camps. But they always forget what she wrote about the 'Declaration of Facts'. In a brief evaluation of that document she makes a rather damning remark:
“The document is a master of its kind and worthy of the other four sects [the Christian Scientists, the Latter-day Saints, the Seventh-day Adventists and members of the New Apostolic Church] all of whom supported, in one way or another, the Nazi state.”(46)

When all these embarrassing facts came to light, 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' were forced to find a way of dealing with them. And the way they found was,  to put the blame on somebody else. The 1974 Yearbook of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' admits that Rutherford prepared the 'Declaration' together with Paul Balzereit, one of the top officials of the sect in Germany at the time. But then they report that a member of the sect by the name of Mütze, accused Balzereit of weakening the original text.(47) And based on no more authority then the unsubstantiated beliefs of one Mütze, propagandists of the sect consider themselves absolved from responsibility for those wretched documents. The fact that Paul Balzereit later on left the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' helped the leaders of the sect to make him into a scapegoat. Even if the claims that Balzeit “weakened” the text were true, it wouldn’t at all absolve the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' from the heavy responsibility for anti-Semitic documents, for the following reasons:
1) Paul Balzereit was not an outsider, but one of the top officials of the sect. To an objective observer it matters not at all which official inside the sect was responsible for the text.
2) 'Declaration of Facts' was unanimously adopted by the several thousand members of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' at their convention, as they themselves report in their official publication entitled 'Jehovah’s Witnesses in The Divine Purpose'.(34)
3) Both anti-Semitic documents ('Declaration of Facts' and the accompanied letter to Hitler) were printed in German and in English as official documents of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses', as such they were published in their official Yearbook(36) and distributed worldwide in millions of copies!

But the truth is, that the claims of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' are just another desperate attempt in an ongoing cover-up of their ugly past. Professor M. James Penton from Canada, a well-known authority on the history of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses', wrote a paper on the subject entitled “ ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’, anti-Semitism, and the third Reich. The Watchtower Society’s attempted compromise with Nazism.” There he forcefully rejects all the propaganda of the sect and clearly establishes that J.F. Rutherford was in fact responsible for these anti-semitic documents.
The following case sheds more light on the real opinion that leaders of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' had of the Nazi regime. In May 1933 the Gestapo searched the house of one, Ewald Vorsteher, a former member of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'. They found materials that unsparingly denounced the anti-Semitic and inhuman objectives of the Nazi regime. The Nazis by mistake thought that he was still a member of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'. When 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' found out that the Gestapo is trying to connect them with anti-Nazi materials they became embarrassed. Instead of agreeing with Vorsteher’s just attacks on the Hitler regime, they condemned him in the harshest of terms. A letter of January 28, 1935 to the Nazi Home Office by one of the Watchtower Society’s official representatives Hans Dollinger, reads:
“… I became painfully aware of the outrageousness of what this man named Vorsteher has done. I can really understand that the National Socialist state will not put up with such a thing… Never during all the years that National Socialism fought for Germany has the Bible Student’s Association(22) tried to impair the fight. Never in any talk given, nor in written form, nor in it’s overall policies the association has given any negative statement against National Socialism. This applies to Germany… as well as to foreign countries in general.” (emphasis ours)

In 1996, in one of their publications they actually bragged how they “courageously spoke out and exposed Nazism as the evil that it was.”(48) All that we can hear is the voice of fear and opportunism.

In 1938, in yet another of their official publications in Germany, the true attitude of the sect to the Jews came loud and clear. Under the headline 'The Jews in Palestine' they write that Jews’ “eyes are blind and their ears are deaf to God’s truth.”(49) They explain that the Jews will never succeed in returning to Palestine because it is against the will of 'Jehovah'. And anyway the Jews belong to “organization of the Devil”. (49)

And the declaration ends:
“The Jews are the epitome of the fact how terrible it is not to be under Jehovah’s blessings. Separated from God’s grace, they are restless here, too. Sowing the wind they are reaping the whirlwind! Just how long?”(49)

A clearer example of deep theological anti-Semitism is hard to imagine.

Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Camps

There is yet another issue which the heads of the sect like to bring up often to glorify themselves – the conduct of sect’s members in concentration camps. Let’s see what they themselves say: “Yes, history reveals that“Jehovah’s Witnesses” have always shown love for their fellowman, even in the face of intense pressure.”(50) “Out of love of neighbor —cell-mate, barracks-mate, camp-mate — the witnesses shared not only their spiritual food but also whatever physical food they had.”(51)
Was that really the case?
The noted psychoanalyst, and himself a concentration camp survivor, Bruno Bettelheim in his famous book 'The Informed Heart' describes 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' as very aloof and set apart from the social life of the camp.(52) Not exactly a picture of “sharing spiritual and physical food.”

That’s how 'The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust' describes the behavior of members of the sect in the camps:
“… they refused to cooperate with other illegal political groups, to try to escape or to rebel against SS… in the end the SS exploited this unusualbehavior of the 'Bible Students'” for their own benefit. For example, by the orders of Heinrich Himmler, they were allowed to gather mushrooms and fruits outside the camps, because there was no danger of them trying to run away or to attack members of the SS. As a result of this policy change by SS, the conditions of“Bible Students” in the camps improved."(32)

The truth is that the moral conduct of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' in the camps did not differ from conduct of other non-Jewish prisoners – some of them behaved like human beings and others not at all. This is how they are described in a book 'Face to Face with Nazis – fighters tell their story' (published by the 'Association of Invalids of War on Nazism' in cooperation with 'Yad Vashem') by a Jew who was together with them in the concentration camps:
“In the camps in Poland they did not always behave according to their teachings. They served the cruel Nazi enemy very well with everything connected to murdering the Jews.”(53)
The writer of these lines could not have known what were the teachings of the sect. If he had known, he would’ve understood that they behave totally “according to the teachings.”

Rudolf Hess, commandant of Auschwitz, in his book of memoirs 'The Commandant of Auschwitz Testifies' describes the faith and behavior of several female members of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses', who worked as faithful servants of SS officers in Auschwitz:
“The strange thing was that all of them were convinced that causing suffering to the Jews and killing them was justified, because their ancestors betrayed God.”(54)

In light of all the citations mentioned above, we’re not at all surprised.

Attitude of Jehovah’s Witnesses to Zionism and the State of Israel

Professor Yona Malachy in his definitive work 'American Fundamentalism and Israel', dealing with the relationship of Fundamentalist Churches to Israel, dedicates the whole chapter to 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'.(55) The chapter is an in-depth research with many original sources on the theological and political views of the sect and it’s attitude to Zionism and the Jewish State.
Prof. Malachy notes that in the beginning of 20th Century the attitude of the sect towards Zionism was positive, but around 1931-32 it “gradually became negative and eventually hostile.”(56) From that time on the views of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses', whom Prof. Malachy describes as “theocratic dictatorship”(57), “became anti-Zionist in tone.”(58)

An accurate example of the sect’s opinion on Zionism we find in the book 'Vindication' by J.F. Rutherford:
“…during the World War the Jews received recognition of the heathen nations.(59) In 1917 the Balfour Declaration, sponsored by the heathen governments of Satan’s organization,(60) came forth, recognized the Jews, and bestowed upon them great favors… The Jews have received more attention at their hands than they really deserved.” (61)

After the death of Rutherford the anti-Zionist approach of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' was crystallized and given an appropriate theological foundation, which was formulated in another book of the sect 'Let God be True'(62). In that book, according to Professor Y. Malachy, 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' “launched a sharp attack on the State of Israel.”(63) The book overflows with anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism and it is full of descriptions of various “sins” of the Jewish people in general and the State of Israel in particular. For example, the book attacks the Jewish State for the “sin” of joining the United Nations, which “was a flat rejection of God’s Kingdom of the Heavens”. Instead, Israel should have… submitted itself to the authority of the sect and joined its ranks, for after all they are “the sole, true and legal apostles of Jehovah on earth.”(64)

The following is the summary by Professor Y. Malachy on the attitude of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' to the Jewish State:
To the present, this has remained the view of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' on the status of the Jewish people. In this view Israel,  is denied the right to exist as a state, for, having been established against the will of Jehovah, it has thereby become an additional instrument in the hands of Satan.”(65)
“From the point of view of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'… Lucifer assumed command of the Jewish people, who had now returned to Zion. The State of Israel thus became in their eyes yet another deplorable political entity, and additional rampart in Satan’s fortress.”(66)

This venomous anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism does not remain with the members of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' on a purely theoretical level, but finds it’s practical application in that all members of the sect living in the State of Israel refuse to serve in Israel’s Defense Forces, completely ignore all the National Holidays (including the Holocaust Remembrance Day, Remembrance Day and Independence Day), refuse to vote in any elections, refuse to join any cultural or political organizations, etc. In the words of Professor Y. Malachy they learned to “develop a complete indifference to… the political fate of the land in which they lived.”(67)

Summing up

Shortly after the Holocaust, the following lines were written in the mouthpiece of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses':
“Propagandists think the people have short memories. It is their intention to erase past history, presenting themselves in the modern disguise of benefactors, their incriminating record being covered up.” (68)
These lines perfectly describe the leadership of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' in their attempts to rely on shortness of human memory, as they try to cover up their anti-Semitism and their deplorable conduct during the Holocaust. ¯

*   *   *

We have devoted much of this article to quotes from the Jehovah’s Witnesses' own publications. The facts speak for themselves.
It is our fervent hope that our efforts will draw public co-operation and support, to speedily bring to the passing of effective anti-missionary legislation in Israel.

http://www.yadlachimusa.org.il/Index.asp?ArticleID=577&CategoryID=203

Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by LagosShia: 9:12am On Nov 23, 2010
, to be continued (exposing the falsity and pretense of the watch-tower and the jehovah's witness)
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by firestar(f): 2:04pm On Nov 26, 2010
^
Still at this? Huh!
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by MyJoe: 11:09am On Dec 01, 2010
Perrito4u:

@MyJoe

    How come you don't back up anything you say with the bible? I don't see you mentioned anything directly from the scriptures? Are you a christian?
undecided
I don’t know what to say to that^^^, ma’am. Really, I don’t. But lemme try.

1. It’s not beneficial this mindset that the person that quote scripture after scripture is right, while the person that doesn’t is wrong.

2. It was not necessary to quote the Bible in my last posts because discussants are thoroughly familiar with the issues involved and the Bible citations at the background.

3. If it was necessary to quote the Bible, I would have. Check an earlier post where I used the Bible to clearly show that Jesus did not teach, and it is wrong for anyone to teach, that the parable of the wheat and weeds points to one true religion.

4. The Bible is one of my favourite subjects, so you, ma’am, are welcome to discuss it with me. (i) I have asked someone to supply the biblical basis of 1914. Perhaps you can step up to that and we can start from there. (ii) Perhaps you would also mention directly from the scriptures the reasons for not fighting when attacked?

5. Thank you.

smiley
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by RWilliams: 3:10pm On Dec 01, 2010
My Joe, How can you not see that 1914, the year WW1 started, was not a turning point, even many historians attest to this. It is not co-incidence that the first sign jesus gave of his parousia was "Nation against Nation" if you want too look more into the bibles timeline for 607/ 1914 follow this link

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth..com/2005/11/jerusalems-destruction-587-or-607.html
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by RWilliams: 4:18pm On Dec 01, 2010
Jehovah's Witnesses and the Jews
One of the most aggressive missionary groups operating today in the State of Israel is the sect which calls itself 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'.
Lately, this sect started an aggressive publicity campaign in order to build for itself a positive image in the eyes of the public. They hope to succeed based on the fact that most people in Israel are unaware of the true nature of this sect and of its sordid history. They’re pouring a lot of money into this publicity campaign from their vast resources (their income in USA alone is surpassing $1.25 billion dollars).
As a part of this propaganda they sent an expensively produced book and a videocassette to every member of the Knesset. There they describe in great detail the suffering that members of the sect underwent during the Nazi regime. Our brochure is the first modest step in exposing the true face of this fanatical sect, which bases all of its propaganda on historical revisionism and outright lies.
Aharon Rubin & D. F.    If Jehovahs Witnesses hate the Jews as much as you try to say here, why would they go to so much effort to try and help as many as possible to see the truth?

¬ Jehovah’s Witnesses and their conflict with the world

  In contrast with the situation in Israel, in the rest of the world 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' are well known, and intensely disliked.
“Of all modern religions, the group which has experienced the most conflicts from citizens of their own country are members of the modern sect known today as the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses.'(1) Noted sociologist, Seymour M. Lipset concluded from his study of attitudes towards minorities that the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' were among the most disliked of all religious minorities he researched - the group average showed that Americans disliked them more than even the most hated ethnic minorities.(2) 1990 study by Barna Research Group found that a whopping 74% had a negative view of the sect. In comparison, 88% had a favorable opinion of Protestants, 85% of Catholics and 84% of Jews. The only other group for which this amount of antagonism existed was the 'Hare Krishnas.'(3) The attitude to the sect outside of the USA is even more negative. In the words of one researcher:
“The Watchtower (one of the names of the sect) has experienced conflicts in almost every nation of the world - this writer was unable to locate a single country where they have not experienced problems. At one time or another they were banned or their activities severely restricted in almost every nation of the world, and are still banned in twenty six countries according to their official world-wide activities report published in 1995.” (4)

In the United States alone, members of the sect were repeatedly charged in the courts of law, with among other things, blasphemy, ridicule of other religions and of authorities, inciting violence, breach of peace, desecration of the American flag, criminal syndicalism and sedition.(4) In July 1940 the government of Canada banned the 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' outright. The law, passed under the War Measures Act, was vigorously enforced.(5) According to recently declassified wartime documents, the reason for the ban was: “The federal government described 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' as subversive and offensive religious zealots,  in a secret report given to special parliamentarian committees in 1942”.(6) The government report on the sect concluded that, “probably no other organization is so offensive in its methods, working as it does under the guise of Christianity.”(6)
“If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. 19 If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU” The words of Jesus What are the reasons for so much world-wide antagonism to a rather unremarkable and pedestrian Christian sect?
Historians and researchers who studied the subject concluded that the major reason for all the conflicts was the attitude and teachings of the leaders of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'. Writes Dr. C.E. King: “many of the teachings have led the sect into bitter conflict with civil authorities all over the world, in democratic as well as in totalitarian states.”(7) In the words of Dr. J. Bergman Ph.D.: “Especially during the presidency of J.F. Rutherford (second president of the sect), many articles in Watchtower publications were deliberately designed to stir up trouble. Rutherford’s vitriolic attacks were not only against the government, but also the clergy,  He repeatedly called them scum, roosters, jackasses, harlots, s.o.b.s,Reminds me of Jesus comments at Matt 23 Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In that way YOU also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside YOU are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU build the graves of the prophets and decorate the memorial tombs of the righteous ones, 30 and YOU say, ‘If we were in the days of our forefathers, we would not be sharers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Therefore YOU are bearing witness against yourselves that YOU are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Well, then, fill up the measure of YOUR forefathers.
33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge•hen′na

even advocating violence That is garbage and you know it. and encouraging Witnesses to stir up trouble. Many of the articles would today, no doubt, engender legal action against the Watchtower with claims that they were inciting religious hatred. And the claimants would likely prevail, at least in American courts.”(4) Articles in the 'Golden Age' and 'Consolation' (official publications of the sect) depicted members of other religions in the vilest of terms, and numerous illustrations showed them in a slanderous light. (4),(
An American history book describes 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' as scornful of all other religions and notes that “members of the sect repeatedly collided with the law.”(9)[b]As did the early Christians for similar reasons “With that they called them and charged them, nowhere to make any utterance or to teach upon the basis of the name of Jesus. 19 But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to YOU rather than to God, judge for yourselves. 20 But as for us, we cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.” 21 So, when they had further threatened them, they released them, since they did not find any ground on which to punish them and on account of the people,”
“These men are disturbing our city very much, they being Jews, 21 and they are publishing customs that it is not lawful for us to take up or practice, seeing we are Romans.” 22 And the crowd rose up together against them; and the civil magistrates, after tearing the outer garments off them, gave the command to beat them with rods. 23 After they had inflicted many blows upon them, they threw them into prison, ordering the jailer to keep them securely. 24 Because he got such an order, he threw them into the inner prison and made their feet fast in the stocks.”[/b]
A well-known researcher summarizes the attitude of the sect to the outside world from 1922 to the present as “the extremist attitude”, “it could only be interpreted as complete negation of all governments, religions, churches and international organizations.”(10)
What is the root of so much hatred for everybody outside the sect?!
Explains Dr. Bergman - “The major reason for their troubles was because Witnesses are taught to believe that all governments and all religions are of Satan - and under pain of excommunication all of them must follow Watchtower policy.”(4) Another researcher observes: “Resentment ,  attached themselves to the Jehovah’s Witnesses partly because of vehemence of their religious attacks on the established order and partly because of the militancy of their proselytizing,  they were,  preaching that the evil triumvirate of organized churches, business and the State are the instruments of Satan.”(11) Rutherford “declared open war on the State, in which he saw the handiwork of Satan.”(12)
In the Watchtower’s own words, they teach that: “All organizations on the earth that are in the opposition to God and his kingdom (all religious and political organizations outside of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses') therefore, necessarily take the name “Babylon” and “harlot.”(13)
And what is their ultimate goal? They openly declare that they work for the establishing of Worldwide Theocratic Government.(14) In other words, replacement of all existing governments by worldwide rule of Governing Body of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'. The members of the sect joyfully wait for the day when “the rest of humanity would be condemned to death; whoever did not join 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' would have no hope of receiving God’s mercy and would be destroyed.”(15)

Jehovah’s Witnesses and Anti-Semitism
Jehovahs Witnesses hate no- one, only wrong acts.
As Jews there is another aspect of this sect’s ideology that should worry us. This is that teachings of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' are infused with huge doses of anti-Semitism! Of course, members of the sect are doing everything to hide this fact, so it wouldn’t interfere with their attempts to missionize the unsuspecting Jews.
Here we will bring some blatantly anti-Semitic statements which all appeared in official publications of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'.
First, we must emphasize, as we have already mentioned, all members of the sect must accept all the views of their leadership under penalty of total excommunication. In other words all members of the sect have to espouse anti-Semitism! The fact that this sect decided to call itself 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' is ample testimony to their views. The expression 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' never appears in the Hebrew Bible. What does appear several times is God telling the Jewish nation “you are my witnesses.”(16) Anybody opening the verses will see that the term “witnesses” refers clearly and exclusively to the nation of Israel! In 1931 Josef Franklin Rutherford, president of the sect for 26 years, decided that the Jewish nation has finished it’s role in history, and belongs in the dustbin of history. He declared that the Hebrew prophets in all their prophecies had in mind only him and his sect.(17) In their official publications they openly declare that they and only they are “the true Israel”.(18) This ideology is known to historians and theologians as the “Replacement Theology”. After the Holocaust many Christian churches and groups admitted that it is anti-Semitic in essence, and disavowed it. For example thus writes Dr. David Allen Lewis, a well-known Christian author and lecturer: “Replacement theology is inconsistent. It places all the curses of the Old Testament on the heads of Jews of today, and transfers all the blessings to the “new Israel”, the church. Replacement doctrines are theological anti-Semitism,  (emphasis in the original).
These doctrines make is easier for the blatant, active anti-Semites to persecute and kill the Jews. The doctrines of replacement and contempt led directly to the Holocaust.” ('Christians and Israel' pp. 10-11) But 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' today continue to espouse these anti-Semitic doctrines with even greater fervor.
Jesus words; Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. 38 Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. 39 For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in god’s name!’”
All the following is taken entirely out of context, I will add a few scriptures to show the context

Rutherford in his book 'Enemies' writes about Jews “ultra-selfish men called 'Jews' who look only for personal gain.”(19)
In the same book he writes that the Jews “practice religion, of which the Devil is the author.”(20) [b]John 8:42 “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth. 43 Why is it YOU do not know what I am speaking? Because YOU cannot listen to my word. 44 YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR fatherIn another book he again writes about the Jews: “Be it known once and for all that those profiteering, conscienceless, selfish men who call themselves Jews, and who control the greater portion of the finances of the world and the business of the world, ”(21)Matt: 21:12 And Jesus entered into the temple and threw out all those selling and buying in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 And he said to them: “It is written, ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but YOU are making it a cave of robbers.” I am sure that he was talking about the Jewish Nation as a whole, still rejecting Jesus. He would not have been inferring hatred to Jews as individuals, many who are JW’s[/b]Speaking at 'Bible Students'(22) convention in Winnipeg, Manitoba in the early 1920’s, Rutherford described a Jew as “the hooked-nosed, stooped-shouldered little individual who stands on the street corner trying to gyp you out of every nickel you’ve got.” There is no recording of this being said, and if he did, I have never seen this “quote “ with any context around it to understand what or how it was referring to, you would never here language like that used by any Jehovahs Witness today,  (23) We see here clear examples of vulgar and primitive anti-Semitism. In yet another book he wrote that Jews lost favor with God when they murdered Jesus.(24)
[b]Matt. 21:42, 43: “Jesus said to them [the chief priests and the older men of the Jews in Jerusalem]: ‘Did you never read in the Scriptures, “The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes”? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.’”
Matt. 23:37, 38: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you.”
Does God’s covenant with Abraham give assurance that the Jews continue to be the chosen people of God?
Gal. 3:27-29: “All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.” (So, from God’s standpoint, it is no longer natural descent from Abraham that determines who are Abraham’s seed.)
Will all the Jews be converted to faith in Christ and attain to eternal salvation?
Rom. 11:25, 26: “I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner [“this is how,” TEV; “thus,” CC, By; Greek, hou′tos] all Israel will be saved.” (Notice that the saving of “all Israel” is accomplished, not by conversion of all the Jews, but by the ‘coming in’ of people from Gentile nations. Some translators render verse 26: “And then after this the rest of Israel will be saved.” But A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament defines hou′tos as meaning “in this way, so, thus.”)
To arrive at a correct understanding of what is recorded at Romans 11:25, 26, we should also take into account these earlier statements in Romans: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.” (2:28, 29) “Not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel.’”—9:6.[/b]
Nowadays 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' continue to disseminate huge amounts of anti-Seminic materials. As a matter of fact, they’re one of the biggest distributors of hate literature in human history. A few examples will suffice. In 1982 they published a book called “You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth.” It was published in 15 million copies and distributed worldwide in 55 languages. On pages 25-26 of the book we can see what is their current opinion of the Jews. Among other things it says there of the Jews:
“Was God really their father? Did God accept their form of religion? Not at all!”,  Jews are “from their father the Devil, and they wish to do his desires.” The Jewish religion “served the interest of the Devil.”And they concluded that because of their evil, the Jews “were on the way to destruction”.
In another official publication from 1984 (25) they say that 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' “have no intention to falling into the sad course of the Jews”, because the Jews “exchanged the truth of God for the lie.”(26) [b]Any one who wants too look can see these quotes are totally deceiving and out of context, and the quotation are actually from the bible, Jesus condemning the religious leaders of the Jews for their misleading and contempt of the common Jew who they viewed as contemptible “amharets” or ‘common people of the dirt’
I was going to go right through this article and expose it, but really, I don’t have the time, and hopefully any truth seekers will see the point. If anyone wants to see what the “Declaration of Facts” contained try this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany
Just one thing though, we did not fight for Nazi Germany, whereas the German adherents of many other Christian denominations did. We ‘learn war no more’
This is a prime example of the persecution that makes a true Christian happy
Matt 5: 11“Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12 Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU[/b]
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by 2curious: 1:54pm On Dec 05, 2010
Vchlady:

first let me state that I am not a JW, but I encourage an accurate understanding of the bible, wich I believe that the JWs are ever striving to attain.

After reading the comments I have noticed a few things, I will will get to them after I let you all know that I firmly believe that Jehovahs Witnesses are as close to the truth as we are able to get at this point. However when it comes to the accusations of them being "false prophets", we must take into consideration that men are men and therefore suseptable to the imperfections that plague mankind, however in saying that, don't you find it remarkable that when finding the error, they change it, revise it, so that they are in harmony with the word of god? this is more than can be said for other so called christian religions that bend Gods standards to suit what they want. ie: we want the pagans to conform so we are going to make pagan holidays christian holidays now! yes cause thats a bible teaching!! come one guys! oh and we want god the son and the holy spirit to be 3 manifestations of 1 greater being, yeah cuz thats supported by the bible, its not, and I don't say this from reading any of your translations, although i have read your translaions, but where you will find that jesus is truly created by god, the only begotten of god, actually the term used is first born, not in greek guys, actually in aramaic, do you know what aramaic is? yeah it is before the befuddlement of tranlations, it will tell you that jesus was created, the problem is that we try and read between the lines and read our own interpretation of the bible, it is not open to interpretation. It is the inspired word of God. Actually for you trinity believers out there, there is a simple scripture you can look up in your bible at home that should make you think, again i say it should, its the acount at mathew 3:16,17 "after being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water and look the heavens were opened up and he saw descending down like a dove gods spirit coming apon him. Look also there was a voicefrom the heavens that said "this is my son the beloved whom i have approved"
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by MyJoe: 12:49pm On Dec 06, 2010
@RWilliams
I understand your point about the Jewish matter. Saying the JWs hate the Jews as a race is ridiculous. Even though there are other points made in that long post, I don't know what LagosShia’s point is posting it here.

RWilliams:

My Joe, How can you not see that 1914,  the year WW1 started, was not a turning point, even many historians attest to this.
Please let us know these “historians”. I can find none. I still don’t know on what basis you say 1914 was “a turning point”.

RWilliams link:
It is not co-incidence that the first sign jesus gave of his parousia was "Nation against Nation"
Are you seriously saying there were no wars before 1914? That nations just started rising against nations in 1914? No, I believe not. Relative to population and technological advancement there were similarly destructive wars before 1914. But how about 1938, the year the much more destructive World War II started? Was that a turning point, too?

RWilliams link:
if you want too look more into the bibles timeline for 607/ 1914 follow this link

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth..com/2005/11/jerusalems-destruction-587-or-607.html

I read the article in the link. It does provide "bible timeline" for 607/539 link but not "607/1914 link". (These two are different matter, but I will get to that presently.) It seems you didn't read the article. Once he is through with the emphasis on the "70 times", his main argument is that those who say Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586BC rely on secular history, whereas, we, Jehovah’s Witnesses, who say Jerusalem was destroyed in 607BC rely on the Bible. Of course, the writer of this article would flunk a history class. But I guess that’s not his business. You know, he reminds me of a popular guy on this forum called OLAADEGBU. Here him: Those who say the earth is more than 10,000 years old rely on science, whereas, I, OLAADEGBU, who believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old rely on the Bible alone.

To you, Mr Williams, who believe in an old earth, Mr OLAADEGBU is wrong is ascribing a young earth to the Bible. To him you are wrong is ascribing 607 to the Bible. But none of you can see how wrong he is. Know why? Here is a quote from the merciless Deep Sight, a regular in this section. It’s one of my favourite NL quotes for the year 2010, even though others, including yours sincerely, have said the same thing in different words:

I state my concern again - and put very simply it is a frank worry that once any body of writing [or a religion or movement's leadership] is accepted as infallible and ABSOLUTELY correct in truth, then the person accepting that can NEVER think outside that manual, and can NEVER challenge anything in that manual. (bracket mine).

But there is another problem: the assertion that 607 relies on the Bible is hideously false. Where in the Bible do we read that Jesus was born in 1 BC? The Bible only gives relative dates, not absolute dates.

I think the reasons given in that article for preferring 607BC to 539BC over 587BC to 517BC are not only tendentious but tenuous. When he says 607 accords with Bible prophecy I believe what he means the JW interpretation of Bible prophecy. I have already said something about the danger of this type of approach.

Now, historians tell us that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/86 BC and that Jewish exiles returned in 538/37 BC. You reject the first date and accept the second. Why? You say the first date agrees with Bible chronology, but the second does not. So I will like to ask you and the writer of that article the following questions:

1.  Is it possible to have a definite Bible chronology?

2.  Since the Bible gives no absolute dates – either by stating calendar years or the position of planetary bodies that could help astronomers calculate them – is possible to date events in the Bible without secular sources?

3. Given 2 above, does it even begin to make sense or isn’t it completely meaningless  for anyone to attempt to cite “Bible chronology” as an independent source of dating?

4. Does the Watchtower quote secular historians and encyclopedias?

5. Is it honest to quote secular sources extensively when they seem to support Watchtower ideas only to turn around and say we believe the Bible over them, particular on a matter that requires “assembling” and is not intrinsically theological?

6. When the Bible is not clear on a matter is it honest for Christians to resort to mumbo jumbo to input their own ideas into it?

7. If the proper course for Christians is to reject secular sources just to stick literally to the Bible why do you not agree that the earth is little more than 6,000 years old, a position that can be easily inferred from the book of Genesis?

8. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BC. How does THE BIBLE link that date with 1914? What link is there between the destruction of Jerusalem and the Common Era? Let me make that clearer: the age and years of the reign of the Kings of Israel and Judah from Saul to Zedekiah are given in the Old Testament. Using those ages, it is possible to approximate the years been the reigns of Saul and Zedekiah - about 500, if my memory serves me right. What timelines are there between reign of Zedekiah and the Common Era to help us make computations, using the Bible, and arrive at a 1914?
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Perrito4u: 1:11am On Dec 07, 2010
MyJoe:

@RWilliams
Are you seriously saying there were no wars before 1914? That nations just started rising against nations in 1914? No, I believe not. Relative to population and technological advancement there were similarly destructive wars before 1914. But how about 1938, the year the much more destructive World War II started? Was that a turning point, too?

1914 was the beginning of an epoch. After 1914 the following wars where more destructive than ever before. From WWI on, the nations started using airplanes, tanks, subs, poison gas, bombs, etc. Definitely a turning point. Yes there were wars before 1914 but never like this. One of the US presidents even said more people have died in the 20th Century than all of previous war before. Definitely a turning point.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Ndipe(m): 1:25am On Dec 07, 2010
Perrito4u:

1914 was the beginning of an epoch. After 1914 the following wars where more destructive than ever before. From WWI on, the nations started using airplanes, tanks, subs, poison gas, bombs, etc. Definitely a turning point. Yes there were wars before 1914 but never like this. One of the US presidents even said more people have died in the 20th Century than all of previous war before. Definitely a turning point.

Still, Jesus Christ did not come to the world in 1914.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by MyJoe: 5:54pm On Dec 07, 2010
Perrito4u:

1914 was the beginning of an epoch. After 1914 the following wars where more destructive than ever before. From WWI on, the nations started using airplanes, tanks, subs, poison gas, bombs, etc. Definitely a turning point.
Once people had swords – they used them. Then they had gunpowder – they used them. Then they had warplanes – and they used them. Can you please explain why the last case a “turning point” but the previous ones aren’t?

Perrito4u:
Yes there were wars before 1914 but never like this. One of the US presidents even said more people have died in the 20th Century than all of previous war before. Definitely a turning point.


Okay: “More people died in the 20th century wars than all previous wars,” US president living in the 20th century.

How about these hypotheses – “More people died in the 19th century wars than all previous wars,” some president living in 19th century.

“More people died in the 18th century wars than all previous wars,” some president living in 18th century.

“More people died in the 2nd century wars than all previous wars,” some king living in the 2nd century.

Do you have any reason to be certain that these hypotheses are not provable?


You see, ma’am, when you say something and keep repeating it some people are bound to believe you. If you say it from a pedestal – such as that of a religious leader – many people are bound to believe you. But the fact of saying something repeatedly does not make it true. So not everyone will believe you. You say 1914 was the beginning of an epoch, the epoch Jesus came to rule the world – how? That more people died in a war? Have you heard of the Black Death? It was a series of plagues epidemics that lasted centuries during the Middle Ages. Imagine a series of diseases that wipe out half the population of a city, in some cities more than half – one third of Europe’s population may have died! It was horrible and nothing like it has been seen since that time. These plagues started in 1347. Now do you not think that people living in, say, 1400 will look back and say, “Oh, what a turning point, the beginning of an epoch, 1347!”

So how does the fact that a war killed more people (because of technological advancement, obviously) than previous wars mean the beginning of an epoch? Was 1939, the year World War II started also the beginning of an epoch of cosmic significance? George Bush believes September 11, 2001 was the beginning of an epoch – does that have spiritual significance, too? If Mr bin Ladin gets hold of nuclear weapons and wipe out half the earth’s population by 2020 would that be the beginning of an epoch with religious significance?

Okay, ma’am, you have talked about war, deploying old phrases to prove that a war killing more than previous wars shows that Jesus has come. What about the others signs listed as signifying the parousia – diseases, earthquakes, etc. Are they also here killing more than previous incidents?
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Perrito4u: 12:32am On Dec 08, 2010
MyJoe:

Once people had swords – they used them. Then they had gunpowder – they used them. Then they had warplanes – and they used them. Can you please explain why the last case a “turning point” but the previous ones aren’t?

Developments in two areas have a bearing on identifying what the Bible calls the last days. The Scriptures foretell events that would take place during the time of “the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 24:3) The Bible also speaks of changes in the attitudes and actions of people living in “the last days.”—2 Timothy 3:1.
“Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,” said Jesus, “and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.” He added: “All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.” (Matthew 24:7, 8 )   Vast numbers of people were slain in wars and ethnic disputes during the past century. “Three times as many people fell victim to war in [the 20th] century as in all the wars from the first century AD to 1899,” states a scholarly report from the Worldwatch Institute. In his book Humanity—A Moral History of the Twentieth Century, Jonathan Glover writes: “An estimate for the period from 1900 until 1989 is that war killed 86 million people. . . . Death in twentieth-century war has been on a scale which is hard to grasp. Any averaging out of the numbers of deaths is artificial, since about two-thirds (58 million) were killed in the two world wars. But, if these deaths had been spread evenly over the period, war would have killed around 2,500 people every day, that is over 100 people an hour, round the clock, for ninety years.” Can you imagine the grief and pain this must have caused the millions of relatives and friends of those who lost their lives?
Despite the fact that the world produces plenty of food, the features characterizing the last days include food shortages. Researchers say that over the past 30 years, food production has outpaced population increase. Nevertheless, food shortages prevail in large areas of the world because many people do not have sufficient land to grow food or enough money to buy food. In developing countries, some 1.2 billion people subsist on a dollar (U.S.) a day or less. Of these, about 780 million suffer chronic hunger. According to the World Health Organization, annually malnutrition plays a major role in the deaths of over five million children.
What can be said about the foretold earthquakes? According to the U.S. Geological Survey, the number of earthquakes powerful enough to destroy buildings has averaged 17 a year since 1990 alone. On average, earthquakes strong enough to cause almost total destruction of buildings have occurred once each year. “Earthquakes have claimed hundreds of thousands of lives in the last 100 years,” states another source. One reason for this is that since 1914 many large population centers have developed in earthquake zones.
“There will be . . . in one place after another pestilences,” said Jesus. (Luke 21:11) Medical science today is more advanced than ever before. Still, both old and new diseases continue to ravage mankind. A U.S. National Intelligence Council document states: “Twenty well-known diseases—including tuberculosis (TB), malaria, and cholera—have reemerged or spread geographically since 1973, often in more virulent and drug-resistant forms. At least 30 previously unknown disease agents have been identified since 1973, including HIV, Ebola, hepatitis C, and Nipah virus, for which no cures are available.” According to a Red Cross report of June 28, 2000, during the preceding year, the number of people who died from infectious diseases was about 160 times greater than the number who died in natural disasters.
“The increasing of lawlessness” is another noteworthy feature of the last days. (Matthew 24:12) In most places around the earth today, people do not leave their homes unlocked or feel safe on the street at night. And what about the pollution of the air, the water, and the land that we see taking place, often because of illegal practices? This too is in fulfillment of what the Bible foretold. The book of Revelation speaks of God’s appointed time to “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”—Revelation 11:18.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Perrito4u: 12:40am On Dec 08, 2010
Ndipe:

Still, Jesus Christ did not come to the world in 1914.

The presence is invisible to human eyes. Remember, Jesus discussed the sign of his presence. (Matthew 24:3) If his presence were visible to human eyes, would a sign be needed? To illustrate: Imagine that you are traveling to see the ocean. You may see road signs directing you along the way, but once you are at the shore, standing at the water’s edge with the vast expanse of water stretching out to the horizon, would you expect to see a sign with a big arrow pointing ahead, emblazoned with the word “Ocean”? Of course not! Why have a sign to point out what you can easily identify with your eyes?
Jesus described the [b]sign [/b]of his presence, not to point out something that humans could see with their eyes, but to help them discern something that would occur in heaven. Thus, Jesus said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness.” (Luke 17:20)
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Ndipe(m): 12:53am On Dec 08, 2010
Perrito4u:

The presence is invisible to human eyes. Remember, Jesus discussed the sign of his presence. (Matthew 24:3) If his presence were visible to human eyes, would a sign be needed? To illustrate: Imagine that you are traveling to see the ocean. You may see road signs directing you along the way, but once you are at the shore, standing at the water’s edge with the vast expanse of water stretching out to the horizon, would you expect to see a sign with a big arrow pointing ahead, emblazoned with the word “Ocean”? Of course not! Why have a sign to point out what you can easily identify with your eyes?
Jesus described the [b]sign [/b]of his presence, not to point out something that humans could see with their eyes, but to help them discern something that would occur in heaven. Thus, Jesus said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness.” (Luke 17:20)

Read this: Jesus Christ says in His Holy Bible that no man knows the day or hour of His second coming, not even the angels. And that includes JW.
http://bible.cc/matthew/24-36.htm
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Perrito4u: 1:10am On Dec 08, 2010
Ndipe:

Read this: Jesus Christ says in His Holy Bible that no man knows the day or hour of His second coming, not even the angels. And that includes JW.
http://bible.cc/matthew/24-36.htm
Absolutely true. Jesus said there are only signs .
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by cardini: 6:15pm On Dec 08, 2010
Hi just been reading about Jehovah s Witnesses and 1914. Sorry if I am being a bit thick here, but the Watch Tower Society publications teach that Jesus Christ returned invisibly and began to rule in heaven as king in October 1914. How come the 1st world war had already started on the 28th July 1914? If the 1st World War proves that JW are right, then how come the war had already started? From what I read, the first world war was started by Satan because he was bringing woe to the earth for being cast out of heaven after Christ became king (October 1914). It looks to me that the 1st World War is a red herring and just a coincidence and proves nothing.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by MyJoe: 6:26pm On Dec 08, 2010
Perrito4u:

Developments in two areas have a bearing on identifying what the Bible calls the last days. The Scriptures foretell events that would take place during the time of “the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 24:3) The Bible also speaks of changes in the attitudes and actions of people living in “the last days.”—2 Timothy 3:1.
“Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,” said Jesus, “and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.” He added: “All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.” (Matthew 24:7, 8 )   Vast numbers of people were slain in wars and ethnic disputes during the past century. “Three times as many people fell victim to war in [the 20th] century as in all the wars from the first century AD to 1899,” states a scholarly report from the Worldwatch Institute. In his book Humanity—A Moral History of the Twentieth Century, Jonathan Glover writes: “An estimate for the period from 1900 until 1989 is that war killed 86 million people. . . . Death in twentieth-century war has been on a scale which is hard to grasp. Any averaging out of the numbers of deaths is artificial, since about two-thirds (58 million) were killed in the two world wars. But, if these deaths had been spread evenly over the period, war would have killed around 2,500 people every day, that is over 100 people an hour, round the clock, for ninety years.” Can you imagine the grief and pain this must have caused the millions of relatives and friends of those who lost their lives?
Despite the fact that the world produces plenty of food, the features characterizing the last days include food shortages. Researchers say that over the past 30 years, food production has outpaced population increase. Nevertheless, food shortages prevail in large areas of the world because many people do not have sufficient land to grow food or enough money to buy food. In developing countries, some 1.2 billion people subsist on a dollar (U.S.) a day or less. Of these, about 780 million suffer chronic hunger. According to the World Health Organization, annually malnutrition plays a major role in the deaths of over five million children.
What can be said about the foretold earthquakes? According to the U.S. Geological Survey, the number of earthquakes powerful enough to destroy buildings has averaged 17 a year since 1990 alone. On average, earthquakes strong enough to cause almost total destruction of buildings have occurred once each year. “Earthquakes have claimed hundreds of thousands of lives in the last 100 years,” states another source. One reason for this is that since 1914 many large population centers have developed in earthquake zones.
“There will be . . . in one place after another pestilences,” said Jesus. (Luke 21:11) Medical science today is more advanced than ever before. Still, both old and new diseases continue to ravage mankind. A U.S. National Intelligence Council document states: “Twenty well-known diseases—including tuberculosis (TB), malaria, and cholera—have reemerged or spread geographically since 1973, often in more virulent and drug-resistant forms. At least 30 previously unknown disease agents have been identified since 1973, including HIV, Ebola, hepatitis C, and Nipah virus, for which no cures are available.” According to a Red Cross report of June 28, 2000, during the preceding year, the number of people who died from infectious diseases was about 160 times greater than the number who died in natural disasters.
“The increasing of lawlessness” is another noteworthy feature of the last days. (Matthew 24:12) In most places around the earth today, people do not leave their homes unlocked or feel safe on the street at night. And what about the pollution of the air, the water, and the land that we see taking place, often because of illegal practices? This too is in fulfillment of what the Bible foretold. The book of Revelation speaks of God’s appointed time to “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”—Revelation 11:18.

It appears you are very very unaware about the world you live in. Either that or your effort to improve your ability to connect dots have not been very successful. Let’s leave war aside, since you are fixated on the idea that a war that killed more than previous ones automatically means a new epoch, a turning point. Your church creates the impression and you believe:

(1) that crime and violence in the past was mild compared to what we have today

(2) that incidents of murder and lawlessness are almost unique to our time;

(3) that famine in our time is indeed severe compared to the past.

Are you, ma’am, really blissfully unaware that diseases are killing fewer people today compared to the past? That there is no famine today compared to what they had in the past? The quoted passage you pasted up there does not quote any historian, criminologist or encyclopedia actually saying that the world became worse after 1914. Famous people are quoted out context. That is why it might take someone who has watched a conjurer’s trick to fully understand the effect of this passage from above on Perito4u:

What can be said about the foretold earthquakes? According to the U.S. Geological Survey, the number of earthquakes powerful enough to destroy buildings has averaged 17 a year since 1990 alone. On average, earthquakes strong enough to cause almost total destruction of buildings have occurred once each year. “Earthquakes have claimed hundreds of thousands of lives in the last 100 years,” states another source. One reason for this is that since 1914 many large population centers have developed in earthquake zones.

Now that passage states two things (i) there have been earthquakes - ”since 1914” (ii) they have killed a lot of people. [/b]T[b]he passage does not make any comparisons and so doesn't explicitly state that there was an actual INCREASE in earthquakes since 1914. A secular source is quoted, but the source says nothing about earthquakes prior to 1990 or 1914 -  just that so-and-so earthquakes have occurred since the 1990's. Yet Perito reads passage and concludes that Jesus' foretold earthquakes have indeed manifested since 1914. All the writers of her article do to achieve this objective with her is to cleverly insert the word “1914” somewhere.

Of course there are crimes, hunger and diseases. So your writers trust people to believe their claims we live in worse times, since we haven’t lived in the past anyway. I mean, I can just tell my kid that during my father’s time everyone in our home town fed well and not expect him to doubt me. Has Perito4u ever heard of the Black Death, or the rage of syphilis in Europe in the 16th century? Who’s to tell Watchtower’s faithful readers that the crime you have in Italy and some other European countries today is kid stuff compared to some times past? Or that the century that began in 1914 did not have the most number of earthquakes or the most destructive? Who’s to help them compare figures so they can see there is actually less crime today in Western countries than in the past?

Honestly, it’s been nice talking to you, ma’am. It's Mr Williams I was expecting to come up with the historians that said the world got worse since 1914.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Perrito4u: 12:43am On Dec 09, 2010
MyJoe:

Are you, ma’am, really blissfully unaware that diseases are killing fewer people today compared to the past?
The influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 killed more people than the Great War, known today as World War I (WWI), at somewhere between 20 and 40 million people. It has been cited as the most devastating epidemic in recorded world history. More people died of influenza in a single year than in four-years of the Black Death Bubonic Plague from 1347 to 1351. Known as "Spanish Flu" or "La Grippe" the influenza of 1918-1919 was a global disaster.


MyJoe:

That there is no famine today compared to what they had in the past?
Was the Irish potato famine the worst famine in recorded history?
   The Irish famine was not the worst famine in history. In the People's Republic of China between 1959 and 1962, a famine struck the took the lives of some where between 20 million and 43 million people. The famine in Ireland in the mid 1800s caused only a small amount of deaths in comparison, somewhere between 500,000 and 2 million.


One thing we all have to keep in mind, Jesus said all these things were going to be happening at once. Guess what, they are happening at once. Unlike other incidents which eventually went away, what we see now are here to the end. Matthew 24:14 ", and then the end will come" .
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Perrito4u: 1:51am On Dec 09, 2010
cardini:

Hi just been reading about Jehovah s Witnesses and 1914. Sorry if I am being a bit thick here, but the Watch Tower Society publications teach that Jesus Christ returned invisibly and began to rule in heaven as king in October 1914. How come the 1st world war had already started on the 28th July 1914? If the 1st World War proves that JW are right, then how come the war had already started? From what I read, the first world war was started by Satan because he was bringing woe to the earth for being cast out of heaven after Christ became king (October 1914). It looks to me that the 1st World War is a red herring and just a coincidence and proves nothing.

1- First we need to recognize that Satan had the ability to come and go -Job1:7. So he didn't actually need to be kicked out of heaven to start a mess down here. He knew what was coming.
2- “The dragon [Satan] kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth,” states Revelation 12:4, “that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child.” This shows that Satan wanted to dispose of the newborn Kingdom quickly, at the moment of its birth if at all possible. Though Jehovah’s intervention prevented Satan from realizing his wicked intention, Satan was determined and relentless in his effort to do harm to the newly established Kingdom. It stands to reason, therefore, that “Michael and his angels” would waste no time in taking action to remove “the dragon and its angels” from the heavenly scene so that no harm could come to the Kingdom. This suggests that the defeat and ousting of Satan took place soon after the Kingdom’s birth in 1914.
So actually Jesus prophecies on Matthew 24 was an indication of the Kingdom’s birth not Satan's ousting.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by cardini: 11:26am On Dec 09, 2010
Perrito4u:

1- First we need to recognize that Satan had the ability to come and go -Job1:7. So he didn't actually need to be kicked out of heaven to start a mess down here. He knew what was coming.
2- “The dragon [Satan] kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth,” states Revelation 12:4, “that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child.” This shows that Satan wanted to dispose of the newborn Kingdom quickly, at the moment of its birth if at all possible. Though Jehovah’s intervention prevented Satan from realizing his wicked intention, Satan was determined and relentless in his effort to do harm to the newly established Kingdom. It stands to reason, therefore, that “Michael and his angels” would waste no time in taking action to remove “the dragon and its angels” from the heavenly scene so that no harm could come to the Kingdom. This suggests that the defeat and ousting of Satan took place soon after the Kingdom’s birth in 1914.
So actually Jesus prophecies on Matthew 24 was an indication of the Kingdom’s birth not Satan's ousting.
Thank you for your explanation. This makes more sense but kind of takes the magic out of the JW prophecy.

I see what the Jehovah's Witness publications are doing now thanks to your explanation. Everything I read misleads the reader into thinking that the prophecy has a WOW factor in that being 'Christ became king in 1914, cast Satan down to earth and this caused great woe for the earth. think what happened in 1914? OMG the 1st World War started!!! It must be true and wow the witnesses said this would happen 40 years before 1914!'.
Some examples of this dishonest reasoning I found are in the articles on http://www.watchtower.org : The article at http://www.watchtower.org/e/lmn/article_10.htm says:

When and how is the perfect government established? When Jesus was on earth this Kingdom was the main theme of his preaching. (Matthew 4:17; Luke 8:1) However, he did not establish the Kingdom at that time, nor at his resurrection. (Acts 1:6-cool Even when he ascended into the heavens, he still had to wait for Jehovah's appointed time. (Psalm 110:1, 2; Hebrews 1:13) Bible prophecy shows that appointed time came in 1914 C.E. However, someone will ask, 'Rather than perfect government, did not 1914 mark the start of increased world woes?' That is exactly the point! There is a close connection between the coming of God's Kingdom and the catastrophic events of recent years, as we shall now see.

Then a few paragraphs down a paragraph says:

However, if the heavenly government was established in 1914, why is there all this distress on earth? It is Satan the Devil who is responsible. When Christ received Kingdom power, his first act was to wage war on Satan in the invisible heavens. As a result, Satan, "who is misleading the entire inhabited earth," was hurled with his angels down to the vicinity of the earth. Knowing that his destruction draws near, he stirs up great trouble on earth. It is "woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."—Revelation 12:7-9, 12.

Leading the reader into false reasoning while still leaving a get out clause if it is questioned.

Another article can be found at http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_09.htm which starts with:

A WAR IN HEAVEN

4 The preceding chapter in this book explained that Jesus Christ became King in heaven in the year 1914. (Daniel 7:13, 14) Soon after he received Kingdom power, Jesus took action. “War broke out in heaven,” says the Bible. “Michael [another name for Jesus] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan the Devil], and the dragon and its angels battled.”* Satan and his wicked angels, the demons, lost that war and were cast out of heaven to the earth. God’s faithful spirit sons rejoiced that Satan and his demons were gone. Humans, however, would experience no such joy. Instead, the Bible foretold: “Woe for the earth . . . because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”—Revelation 12:7, 9, 12.

5 Please notice what would result from the war in heaven. In his fury, Satan would bring woe, or trouble, upon those on earth. As you will see, we are now living in that time of woe. But it will be relatively brief—only “a short period of time.” Even Satan realizes that. The Bible refers to this period as “the last days.” (2 Timothy 3:1) How glad we can be that God will soon do away with the Devil’s influence over the earth! Let us consider some of the things foretold in the Bible that are happening right now. These prove that we are living in the last days and that God’s Kingdom will soon bring everlasting blessings to those who love Jehovah. First, let us examine four features of the sign that Jesus said would mark the time in which we live.
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Perrito4u: 2:07am On Dec 10, 2010
cardini:

Thank you for your explanation. This makes more sense but kind of takes the magic out of the JW prophecy.

I see what the Jehovah's Witness publications are doing now thanks to your explanation. Everything I read misleads the reader into thinking that the prophecy has a WOW factor in that being 'Christ became king in 1914, cast Satan down to earth and this caused great woe for the earth. think what happened in 1914? OMG the 1st World War started!!! It must be true and wow the witnesses said this would happen 40 years before 1914!'.
Some examples of this dishonest reasoning I found are in the articles on http://www.watchtower.org : The article at http://www.watchtower.org/e/lmn/article_10.htm says:

When and how is the perfect government established? When Jesus was on earth this Kingdom was the main theme of his preaching. (Matthew 4:17; Luke 8:1) However, he did not establish the Kingdom at that time, nor at his resurrection. (Acts 1:6-cool Even when he ascended into the heavens, he still had to wait for Jehovah's appointed time. (Psalm 110:1, 2; Hebrews 1:13) Bible prophecy shows that appointed time came in 1914 C.E. However, someone will ask, 'Rather than perfect government, did not 1914 mark the start of increased world woes?' That is exactly the point! There is a close connection between the coming of God's Kingdom and the catastrophic events of recent years, as we shall now see.

I'm so sorry , i must had a rough day at work, can you explain a little more. Where is the dishonest reasoning? Can you pin point?
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: the only true religion? by Nobody: 10:33am On Dec 11, 2010
Jehovah's witnesses. Well, we see their founder was a freemason. We know the freemasons/illuminati are orchestrating a New World Order which many researchers believe to be a coming global fascist dictatorship with a single world government, world army, world currency etc etc, and a microchipped global population.

So Jehovah's witnneses are really just a NWO, freemason organisation using the religion bait to capture followers and  prepare them for the NWO, which corresponds to their pulpit dogma relating to a ''paradise earth with all human governments destroyed and replaced by the rule of (the New World Order government, led by) ''Jehovah''.

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