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Re: Questions On The Bible by Jman24(m): 12:44pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
GeneralDae: It is not about me. It is what is in front of us; an act by all.You are the one assuming that the narrator meant this and that In Adam all died( Adam sinned and all inherited that nature) In Adam all died(can never mean All have sinned) Take this anywhere 1 Like |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Ihedinobi3: 12:57pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
In4matic: It's not my problem what religions do. I am speaking as a Christian. From that perspective, the Bible is clear that no one is punished just because someone they are connected to sinned. What I don't see in that passage in Ezekiel is anything to the effect that no one may take responsibility for another's failure and free them from their due punishment for it by taking said punishment on themselves. Yes, it is true that the book of Proverbs teaches that we ought not to stand surety for strangers, but I don't see what that has to do with the issue. My question to you was whether it goes against any law for anybody to take responsibility for someone else's debts and pay them. I haven't seen your answer to that question. Proverbs certainly doesn't answer it with a "NO." It doesn't say that it is wrong to pay another person's debts, does it? I think you know that your position is false. There is nothing wrong with anyone paying anyone else's debts if they so choose. Jesus Christ chose to do that. The very Law taught that a kinsman-redeemer has the right to redeem a debtor from debt slavery if he wants to. The very Law taught that an animal may be killed in place of the sinner who should have been killed instead. That is to say that this principle is very deeply ingrained in Christianity. It is the very bedrock of Christianity. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by In4matic: 1:25pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
Ihedinobi3: |
Re: Questions On The Bible by In4matic: 1:50pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
[quote author=In4matic post=100477685][/quote] Your position above is the classic reason Christians are so far behind in the journey of their soul. Seeking a fall guy to hinge all their failing on. Since you are a closed book, i see no need to go ahead. When you are ready, you'll be taught. For the silent reader, look at the above quote on sacrifice, How does it sound, an innocent, ignorant animal you bought in the market will be made to carry your sins... Then again did Jesus death qualify as a sacrifice in Jewish standards? A sacrifice must be -A kosher animal, not a pig, or camel, or human -without spot or wrinkle -offered by a priest who is ceremonially in a pure state - On an alter of God - altar must be made of 12 Uncut stones I ask the descerning mind, do you believe the death of Jesus hung by pagan Roman soldiers in a place of unclean skulls qualify as a sacrifice? Crucifixion was reserved for only those seen as enemies of Rome. Think on this |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Ihedinobi3: 2:03pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
In4matic: As I always say, it is not my problem what you want to believe or how you feel about my choices. I don't have to please you with my beliefs or lack thereof. The Law of Moses was clearly an allegory. It pointed to something other than itself. No animal sacrifice ever cleansed sin. If it did, only one animal sacrifice would have sufficed. But countless animals were killed over the hundreds of years that the Law remained in force. So, they were nothing more than reminders of a far more potent Sacrifice that was yet to come. Nonetheless, as you have said, there is no bridge between you and me. It is impossible for me to persuade you of the truth here and you obviously cannot deceive me either. I must bid you cheers then. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by GeneralDae: 2:05pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
In4matic:I wonder where they get this sacrifice thing from. What I understand is that a lamb was slain on passover and the Israelites were delivered. This is symbolic and why Jesus' disciples believed he was the lamb of God who ushered in deliverance and a new covenant by his death. No where in the gospels do we read that jesus would be offered as a human sacrifice to God carrying all our sins. 1 Like |
Re: Questions On The Bible by In4matic: 2:09pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
Ihedinobi3 If no animal ever cleansed sin, then why will a humans? |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Ihedinobi3: 2:20pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
GeneralDae: Hi there. What a wild claim you just made! 28 "...just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Matthew 20:28 (NKJV) 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation... John 11:51 (NKJV) 11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. 17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” Jn 10:11 — Jn 10:18 (NKJV) Even if we didn't have such direct quotes, the Gospels are rich with the story of how God sent His Son to come and die for our sins so that we can be saved. I can't imagine how anyone could even dream of saying what you said. 1 Like |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Ihedinobi3: 2:24pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
In4matic: What a weird question! That you would even think that an animal can stand in for a human being is ridiculous in the extreme. It shows just how poor your understanding of the dynamics at play is. It is human beings who sin against God. Therefore, it is a human being who must answer to God for them. This is the whole gist of Hebrews 2:14-17! Do you even know what Christians believe and teach? Have you even heard the Gospel? Like, ever?! |
Re: Questions On The Bible by GeneralDae: 2:26pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
Ihedinobi3:Oh my God, you are even quoting my favourite Jesus sayings from the gospels. None of these quotes mean what you think they mean. Matthew 20v28 does not say that jesus came to be a human sacrifice bearing our sins to God. It says he came to be a ransom for many. What does ransom for many mean? What is the ransom being paid here and to whom? John 11v51, what does it mean to die for the nation? Again John 10 is simply saying he would lay his life down for his followers. How does this equate to a blood sacrifice for sin? |
Re: Questions On The Bible by MaxInDHouse(m): 2:37pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
Hello, i am Maximus one of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES would you like me to participate in the ongoing discussion? |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Ihedinobi3: 3:32pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
GeneralDae: You want to talk about meanings? Interesting. Isn't that what everybody wants to do? What the Bible says on its surface is never what it means for people like you. When the Lord Jesus says that He is giving His life as a ransom for many, He doesn't mean that He is? When John the Baptist calls Him the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world, we are not to understand that in the same sense as the Lamb that is killed as a sacrifice for sins. When we are told that He would die for the nation of Israel, it is not to be understood as a sacrifice for the sins of Israel too? I don't think there would be any point at all in listening to anyone who wants to talk about what a thing means when the thing is as clear as daylight. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Jman24(m): 3:53pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
GeneralDae: I know what you are running away from But How can you lay your life for someone and not be a sacrifice especially when that death is allegedly beneficial to that person? Unless you are saying that death of biblical Jesus isn't beneficial to you. Then it's not a sacrifice |
Re: Questions On The Bible by FatherOfJesus: 4:04pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
lilvicky68:how about billions of people that lived before Jesus? Since the new covenant doesn’t apply to them, on what basis would they be Judged? |
Re: Questions On The Bible by FatherOfJesus: 4:05pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
Dtruthspeaker:Does this mean that everyone that died before the death of Jesus will go to hell? |
Re: Questions On The Bible by GeneralDae: 5:03pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
Jman24:Sacrifice as in a faithful solider laying down his life freely (by himself) for his nation out of love, is different from saying sacrifice on an alter or a sort of sacrifice for sin to appease God's wrath. I am arguing against the latter, while I believe Jesus sacrifice was the former. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Dtruthspeaker: 5:11pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
FatherOfJesus: You must mean lake of Fire! The Answer is every soul born since Cain and Abel are Awaiting Trial in the Court of God! |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Jman24(m): 5:22pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
GeneralDae: Interesting! |
Re: Questions On The Bible by GeneralDae: 5:33pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
Ihedinobi3:You are getting many things wrong. Jesus is compared to the passover lamb taking away sin because it was believed that the passover lamb brought great deliverance and victory to Isreal. What the new testament authors argued for is that those were symbols pointing to the true hero who would be led like a lamb to the slaughter. He is dying to take away the guilt of his people in the eyes of the jews who gave him up to the Romans. He was their scapegoat just thesame way the lamb was the scapegoat to the Angel of death threatening the birth of the new nation, so also jesus offered himself as the ransom to the Romans threatening the birth of the new jesus movement. The jewish religious leaders feared that the Romans would come into the city and destroy the nation because of the many followers of Jesus who shouted Hosannah when he rode on a donkey declaring him king of the jews. The pharisees in order to protect the people reasoned that it was better to give jesus up ( whom they hated) and prevent investigation by the Romans that could have led to the slaughter of many. Jesus in this way gave himself up as a ransom to the Romans for the life of his disciples and his new movement and he became the lamb that was slain for the birth of a new nation. The people accused him of many sins, putting on their scapegoat the sins of all Isreal and the sins of the world, he became a transgressor even though he was innocent. Paul and the later day christian authors extended the meaning of this sacrificial death for the jesus followers in Isreal, to the entire world and rightly so because if Jesus did not die, there would have been no great spread of the gospel by the disciples, and in essence no kingdom of God on earth. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Kobojunkie: 8:39pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
GeneralDae:Very good point. There is and was no wrath of God to be appeased by His death. The Jews needed to kill Him so they could continue to rule... and that is what happened. And they made that very clear too -Caiaphas did. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Kobojunkie: 8:46pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
Jman24:We did not inherit sin from Adam. I mean look at Adam's own flesh and blood,, Abel, who was declared righteous by God. What came down to us from Adam was instead the Judgement God placed on mankind, a consequence of unbelief, the condemnation of sin(Death), beginning with the person of Adam. On the other hand, sin is disobedience of God direct commandment and I don't know any sin attributed to a day old child, let alone a baby. So as far as the claim that all have sinned, it will appear that indeed not all have. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Kobojunkie: 8:48pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
FirstSon01:You are not affected by Adamic sin but instead your own sins. All that came down from the time of Adam was a judgment on all who choose unbelief, beginning with Adam. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Kobojunkie: 8:55pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
In4matic:According to Isaiah, Jesus Christ was to die because of the sins of the Jews - He was sent to His death by them(their sins) , and not as some sacrificial lamb to be slaughtered on an altar as was the practice in the old covenant. According to Jesus Christ, His blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins however. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Kobojunkie: 9:01pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
Jman24:But it is wrong to suggest that Adam passed on a "Sin nature" of any kind when beginning from the very generation from Adam, that theory already failed in the person of Abel, and likely Seth and so many others who came after. Abel was declared a righteous man meaning no sin nature passed from both His mother and father to him, meaning their is likely no such thing as a thing nature to begin with. And when we go down the line, we find that this theory of a "Sin nature" does not present itself enough in men to be believed as true. If you read from the Book of Jasher, you will find that it is believed that there were some from the line of Cain (before Noah's flood) who were also considered worthy men. So, not all have sinned... Paul's assertion was and is wrong since not all were condemned to Death(perish upon death) and we have Enoch, the one who supposedly escaped death completely. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by franklytrue(m): 9:32pm On Apr 04, 2021 |
FirstSon01:A day old has not sinned (yet). He/she is 'innocent until proven guilty'. The sin nature is within the baby but has not started manifesting yet. It is easy for an infant to start learning bad behaviour because it is more inclined in that direction. The heart of man is desperately wicked. We were all born in sin, just like new products being formed from a dented cast/mold. The first humans, Adam and Eve, sinned and became "deformed", and estranged from God and that deformity/separation from God passed to all their descendants. Your talk about not needing God is because you do not yet understand that He is the source and sustainer of your existence. The unregenerated heart has not known the beauty and awesomeness of God, and its desperate need of Him that is why you think you don't need Him. Sin has spoiled many things in this life but God has made a way of redemption through His Son and He will restore all things soon. He will make a new heaven and a new earth where righteousness, peace, joy, and every good thing is. Do you need air, water, food, etc for your body? Your soul and spirit need God for those things the earthly materials cannot satisfy or give --the pain, emptiness, uncertainty, inner stability, assurance, peace, etc in life. You were created for a loving relationship with God and you do not yet know how wonderful that relationship with God is until you experience it, though you may only pursue a pleasant relationship with the opposite sex, but that with God is so much more greater, rewarding and satisfying.
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Re: Questions On The Bible by Ihedinobi3: 8:05am On Apr 07, 2021 |
GeneralDae: As incomplete as your discussion of the Passover Lamb is, the sacrificial lambs in the Law were not all Passover Lambs. When Jesus was called the Lamb of God, the qualification attached was "that takes away the sins of the world." Whether you understand how this applies to the Passover Lamb or not (as it appears that you don't), that makes clear that Jesus came to die just as the lambs of sacrifice in the Law died and for the sins of all mankind. This is the most obvious truth in the Bible. Nothing else the Bible has to say gets away from this. You have absolutely no chance of making sense of the Bible if you cannot accept this fundamental truth. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by GeneralDae: 12:08pm On Apr 07, 2021 |
Ihedinobi3:These things are just symbols. God is not interested in sacrifice, whether animal or human. The sacrifices of God are a contrite heart and spirit. God desires mercy not sacrifice. Jesus already told us what to do when we sin, all we have to do is to turn a new leave and to forgive those who sinned against us as well. Jesus never said you should believe in his blood sacrifice to have your sins forgiven. The idea of taking away the sins of the world has to do with being a scapegoat for community sin or what I call collective sin, it is not about individual sin. Jesus has taken that away and he himself said his death is for the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation to God. Collective sin led them to bondage and slavery, even the slavery and suffering of the innocent. Jesus is the lamb or scapegoat that came to take away this particular type of sin. The lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53) does not mean God is punishing an innocent person for wicked people else that would also contradict the book of Ezekiel, rather it just means these things happened and God did not prevent it, because the Israelites of the old testament never believed in Satan as God's major antagonist, rather they believed God controlled everything, both good and evil. So to them, if God allowed his innocent son to die without doing anything, then it means God did it. While I agree with Isaiah that God allowed it, it doesn't mean God was pleased with his son dying on a cross, nor was it a human sacrifice to God for sin. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Ihedinobi3: 12:12pm On Apr 07, 2021 |
GeneralDae: Please feel free to believe whatever you want. It is your right and responsibility to choose what you will believe. All I have said is that I don't agree with you. I think that anyone who actually reads the Bible will instantly see that you are desperately wrong. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by GeneralDae: 12:26pm On Apr 07, 2021 |
Ihedinobi3:We are free to believe what we want, but I don't understand. How does death on a cross forgive or take away sin? |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Ihedinobi3: 1:22pm On Apr 07, 2021 |
GeneralDae: I have explained that in earlier posts on this same thread. If there is anything confusing or unclear in them, I'll be happy to try again. Otherwise, I cannot help you any further. As I said, you have the right to believe anything you like. It doesn't have to be what I believe. Nor am I inclined to apologize to you for what I believe or to change my beliefs to suit you. |
Re: Questions On The Bible by GeneralDae: 2:12pm On Apr 07, 2021 |
Ihedinobi3:So humans sinned against God, then an innocent human took the fall? how is that just? Also even at that, how does this death of jesus take away all the sins? how does it solve the problems? |
Re: Questions On The Bible by Ihedinobi3: 2:48pm On Apr 07, 2021 |
GeneralDae: https://www.nairaland.com/6490302/questions-bible/1#100476491 |
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