9jacrip:


I saw it on the other thread while on my phone but I'll post a reply here since the other thread appears hijacked.



Going by the excerpt quoted above, then you would agree I've raised this point (though I did not go into details) which Mr Macof kept shouting down and I keep wondering why. In a nutshell, I mentioned there were settlements in Ife before Oduduwa came which he conquered and appeared to have unified and urshered Ife into a new political dawn 'Ooniship'. I mentioned points related to the excerpts you provided in my earlier posts on this thread.


@ the red-bolded: I still find it hard to connect the Ugbo/Ilaje's invasion and taking Ife people as captives with the Oduduwa's obaship. Reason being this Ilaje's terrorist act came very much later when Ile-Ife had become cohesive and issue of Obatala/Oduduwa long gone. Ilaje was said to have left around 10th C, while Offa was said to have been founded in 14th C. (http://www.ilajecwa.org.uk/history.htm and http://oduna.org/platform/content/history-offa). If these periods are anything to go by, would it then mean Ugbos have continued to raid Ife for captives for many centuries? If it was during Oranmiyan's period - Oyo was founded around 14th C too, when when did the Oyo Prince Olafagangan leave to found Offa? I wrote a dissertation on Edi Festival in Ife-Ife(Moremi's heroic act and the festival in rememberance). The people I interviewed couldn't state specifically which of the Oonis was on seat during Ugbo raids, plus, I do not think it has anything to do with Oduduwa usurping power.

Further at the red-bolded: The Ugbo/Moremi is Edi festival which has nothing to do with Itapa festival (Obatala, Oduduwa, Obameri, Oramfe, Yemoo etc). They are far apart and not connected. Please do not confuse it.

From the above, there are so many histories lost in pre-oduduwa and Oduduwa's era which I wouldn't like for us to mix-up.

I would love to look into the Agboniregun's issue with you.

MetaPhysical:


Kasumoto,
I have few observations on this.

If Oduduwa was racially different to the aborigines of Ife like Obatala and company, then

1. Who spoke Yoruba tongue, the aborigines or the migrants?

2. If Obatala's wife was Yemooja, then her realm must have extended from Ife to the coast given that she is a sea godess. If this were true, then the Ijebu must have arrived over the sea and not by land to their spot. If they arrived over land, they traversed through an already populated land and as foreigners they would have been contained much earlier and limited far hinterland. The only way they could have arrived overland and been allowed by the aboriginal Ifes to settle deep in their realm would be if this contact was initiated by invitation (as is case in the episode of King Solomon inviting Queen Sheba and giving them settlement on the Suez coast), or the Ijebu arrivals fought and defeated the aborigines and took land where they wanted.

3. If Oduduwa was married to Olookun, then they migrated from a sea coast.

4. How do you explain that the two Queens are sea cults and where one is indigenous, the other is foreign but yet neither is domiciled on a sea coast?

Note - I made these theories on the understanding that Yemooja and Olookun, as cults is not unique and exclusive to Yoruba. It has universal application and particularly in Egyptian cults.

MetaPhysical:

It is known that Ijebu and Itsekiri share same dialect. Between these two locations are Mahin and Ilaje. Given the linearity in their geo-positions, it is hard not to appreciate that all four - Ijebu, Mahin, Ilaje and Itsekiri - speak same dialect.

Referring back to Kasumoto's hint on Ijebu's foreign footprint, is it possible that what is described simply as a raid and incursion was actually a war from a settlement of foreign people on the coast?

If Ijebu came from Wadai, as their history shows, then they are part of the ancient Himyarites, the Yemeni dynastic rulers of ancient times. They were boat peoples and seafarers.

If Ugbo was a separate from Ijebu and was indigeneous, how did they end up from the savannah and became riverine people?

9jacrip:


At the first bolded: this is what I'm saying. Different oral history from different souces - some detailed, some not so detailed due to overtime embellishments or how well our sources are privy to information. You not ever hearing oduduwa engaged Obatala/ife in conflict shows you need to do more findings because if we begin to go in the line of core oral history then I'm afraid there are/would be so many things you have never heard that you would start fighting and protesting against as you have done so far.

When did Olubuse discuss oral history as being fulfillment of prophecy with you? And who are your sources of oral history? Oduduwa family compound? Ile Olorisa? Obameri compound? Or at least regular Ife indegenes?

If you have not gone to gone to ife to do a one on one interview with either of this compound heads with regards to Oduduwa advent then permit me to completely fault your claims and ask you to speak less on it because you are apparently distorting history.

If saburi, akinjogbin, falola, ade-ajayi classed yoruba history as spirituality then we might as well not have historiography on Yoruba - abi you would have preferred we continue to propagate oral history that is fast withering away in this new age of 'westernization' where most people do not want to be attached to culture, which they think is barbaric?

OAM4J:



I lived part of my early life at Ijebu Ode, and there was this annual festival they used to have then (I dont know if they still do it) it was done in remembrance of one of the Ijebus' greatest herbalist, cant remember his name now (his family compound was just 3 buildings away from where I lived). According to what I heard then, there used to be a river that connected River Ogun to another river at Epe and the river passed through Ijebu Ode.

Annually, the river overflew its bank and destroyed thousands of lives and properties and after consultations from many places; in other to appease the goddess of this river the herbalist had to sacrifice his life. I heard he sailed with a special mat on the river till he was out of sight and days following the big river dried up. I was shown a trace of the river-pathway which was a big gully at the time filled with refuse dumps.

If this account is true, it might answer some of your questions. I know they celebrate Yemoja festival in Ijebu Ode back in the days too.

MetaPhysical:

It is known that Ijebu and Itsekiri share same dialect. Between these two locations are Mahin and Ilaje. Given the linearity in their geo-positions, it is hard not to appreciate that all four - Ijebu, Mahin, Ilaje and Itsekiri - speak same dialect.

Referring back to Kasumoto's hint on Ijebu's foreign footprint, is it possible that what is described simply as a raid and incursion was actually a war from a settlement of foreign people on the coast?

If Ijebu came from Wadai, as their history shows, then they are part of the ancient Himyarites, the Yemeni dynastic rulers of ancient times. They were boat peoples and seafarers.

If Ugbo was a separate from Ijebu and was indigeneous, how did they end up from the savannah and became riverine people?

olumidaie:

Mahin is a part of the Ilajes. That is where I am from. Ugbo is another part. They preceeded the Mahins to the coast. But the Mahins later dominated the whole of Ilaje; thats the reason you see olden maps indicating the whole coastal south of Ondo as MAHIN.

In Ilaje, there are 4 principal clans(including Mahin and Ugbo), and 4 smaller polities. There is no big difference between "Ilaje" and "Mahin" aside one is the larger Umbrella; while the latter is just a part of the clan.

As for the "minor-dialects", it abound every where in Yoruba land. To an extent, Ibadan(ki ni sho. Lol) sound a little different to the Oyo proper dialect: likewise Ogbomoso, Ilorin, Ofa and other Ibolo towns. Even a slight difference abound in Epe-Ijebu/ Ikorodu-Ijebu and Ijebu-Igbo and Remo-Ijebu. Also the same for the Egba and Ekiti towns and clans. WE ARE ALL ILAJE.

The Ugbo-Igbo(aborigines) link is an hoax. The Ugbos got their name from a different reason. I would go back to check it. The Igbo group are not likely Yorubas. A pure descendant of the group still reside in Ife. He is a chief and his great-great-infinite-grand father was appointed by Oduduwa. Their language is different like lizard for example. I have forgotten, but one hitorian/ inner person close to him posted it one Wikipedia(even though Wikipedia isn't reliable for African history). I would try to get back the Info for you.

MetaPhysical:

9ja,

I believe there are many distinct disciplines in the study of Yoruba and I saw somewhere a mention in the past by someone that we need Yorubologists, specialists in the study areas.

When I think of a comprehensive structure for Yoruba study here is what I visualize.

1. The Language of Yoruba
sounds, tones, vocals, words..

2. The History of Yoruba
timelines, event markers, footprints, wars, plagues, adversities, gains, thrones, coups..

3. The Spirituality of Yoruba
cults, manuscripts, crypts, worship, altars, divination, priests, temples..

4. The Alchemy of Yoruba
herbals, minerals, salts, compounds, elements, numerals, formulas, alkalis..

5. The Arts of Yoruba
wood sculpting, ivory, stone, soapstone, bronze, terra cotta, copper, drums, music, dye, weaving..

6. The Theaters of Yoruba
egungun, gelede, efe, eyo, agemo, edi, itapa, isese..

7. The Philosophy of Yoruba
Ifa, omoluabi, ori, iwa, iteriba, isojude, idobale, ikunle..

8. The Cavalry of Yoruba
Aare, Balogun, Basorun, Eso..

9. The Government of Yoruba
Crown, Legislature, Judiciary, Enforcement..

10. The Yoruba People
Ife, Oyo, Sabe, Popo, Orangun, Ketu, Bini..

11. The Heros and Legends of Yoruba
Obatala, Oduduwa, Moremi, Sango, Ogun, Yemoja, Olokun..


What we know so far is that authors on Yoruba subject try to squeeze bits and pieces of the component areas into their books. It is work in progress and hopefully we will have our Yorubologists in not too far time from now.

MetaPhysical:

Please elaborate more on that.
Aladdin's carpet may not just be a middle eastern mystery, we have our own mystical carpets.

Id love to know more on this history and the festival.

olumidaie:

Mahin is a part of the Ilajes. That is where I am from. Ugbo is another part. They preceeded the Mahins to the coast. But the Mahins later dominated the whole of Ilaje; thats the reason you see olden maps indicating the whole coastal south of Ondo as MAHIN.

In Ilaje, there are 4 principal clans(including Mahin and Ugbo), and 4 smaller polities. There is no big difference between "Ilaje" and "Mahin" aside one is the larger Umbrella; while the latter is just a part of the clan.

As for the "minor-dialects", it abound every where in Yoruba land. To an extent, Ibadan(ki ni sho. Lol) sound a little different to the Oyo proper dialect: likewise Ogbomoso, Ilorin, Ofa and other Ibolo towns. Even a slight difference abound in Epe-Ijebu/ Ikorodu-Ijebu and Ijebu-Igbo and Remo-Ijebu. Also the same for the Egba and Ekiti towns and clans. WE ARE ALL ILAJE.

The Ugbo-Igbo(aborigines) link is an hoax. The Ugbos got their name from a different reason. I would go back to check it. The Igbo group are not likely Yorubas. A pure descendant of the group still reside in Ife. He is a chief and his great-great-infinite-grand father was appointed by Oduduwa. Their language is different like lizard for example. I have forgotten, but one hitorian/ inner person close to him posted it one Wikipedia(even though Wikipedia isn't reliable for African history). I would try to get back the Info for you.

9jacrip:

This was part of my dissertation.
Although, I did not broaden up on it since it would mean deviating from the subject matter.
From the little knowledge I have - the people who took Ife captive were Ugbo, not 'Igbo' - but it has gradually become corrupted to Igbo. When Moremi returned to Ife with plan on how to defeat them which was implemented, some of them were captured and detained in Ife but the descendant were allowed to settle and are called 'Oluyare' and a chief called Obawinrin.

When next I go home, I'd probably create time to visit the compound to conduct an interview.

I would love to read more on this people if you have information on them.

Maybe when next I go home I visit the family compound to see what information I can find.

MetaPhysical:



Guys,

You are paring my brain open here with new and interesting knowledge, omg!

Are there sound recordings and taped interviews of these oral historians?

Every Yoruba town have a herbal market called "elewe omo", do we have a database for indexing and reproducing these medicinal herbs?

Yoruba need an awakening.

9jacrip:


At the first bolded: this is what I'm saying. Different oral history from different souces - some detailed, some not so detailed due to overtime embellishments or how well our sources are privy to information. You not ever hearing oduduwa engaged Obatala/ife in conflict shows you need to do more findings because if we begin to go in the line of core oral history then I'm afraid there are/would be so many things you have never heard that you would start fighting and protesting against as you have done so far.

When did Olubuse discuss oral history as being fulfillment of prophecy with you? And who are your sources of oral history? Oduduwa family compound? Ile Olorisa? Obameri compound? Or at least regular Ife indegenes?

If you have not gone to gone to ife to do a one on one interview with either of this compound heads with regards to Oduduwa advent then permit me to completely fault your claims and ask you to speak less on it because you are apparently distorting history.

If saburi, akinjogbin, falola, ade-ajayi classed yoruba history as spirituality then we might as well not have historiography on Yoruba - abi you would have preferred we continue to propagate oral history that is fast withering away in this new age of 'westernization' where most people do not want to be attached to culture, which they think is barbaric?

9jacrip:

This was part of my dissertation.
Although, I did not broaden up on it since it would mean deviating from the subject matter.
From the little knowledge I have - the people who took Ife captive were Ugbo, not 'Igbo' - but it has gradually become corrupted to Igbo. When Moremi returned to Ife with plan on how to defeat them which was implemented, some of them were captured and detained in Ife but the descendant were allowed to settle and are called 'Oluyare' and a chief called Obawinrin.

When next I go home, I'd probably create time to visit the compound to conduct an interview.

I would love to read more on this people if you have information on them.

Maybe when next I go home I visit the family compound to see what information I can find.

9jacrip:

This was part of my dissertation.
Although, I did not broaden up on it since it would mean deviating from the subject matter.
From the little knowledge I have - the people who took Ife captive were Ugbo, not 'Igbo' - but it has gradually become corrupted to Igbo. When Moremi returned to Ife with plan on how to defeat them which was implemented, some of them were captured and detained in Ife but the descendant were allowed to settle and are called 'Oluyare' and a chief called Obawinrin.

When next I go home, I'd probably create time to visit the compound to conduct an interview.

I would love to read more on this people if you have information on them.

Maybe when next I go home I visit the family compound to see what information I can find.

olumidaie:

your analysis is flawed; though compelling and revealing. I still insist that the Ugbo-Igbo link is false. The Igbo(aborigines) never refered themselves as Igbo. Just like Oyinbos. The bulk of them fled or became Yorubanised.

olumidaie:

your analysis is flawed; though compelling and revealing. I still insist that the Ugbo-Igbo link is false. The Igbo(aborigines) never refered themselves as Igbo. Just like Oyinbos. The bulk of them fled or became Yorubanised.

macof:

I've been to Ife only once, never spoke to olubuse but Ife indigenes, we ekiti also have such stories.

it's hard to believe that I have never heard of military conflicts between Oduduwa and Obatala.

It has always been my opinion that Oduduwa was welcomed in for being the man of prophecy.

If not why would the Ife people pledge allegiance to a foreigner and turn away from Obatala?

ghostofsparta: @ALL

You all have directly and unknowingly distorted the True Yoruba Historical origin.

It's a shame how people have been influenced to think in conformity with western concept.

Misinterpreting 'awo' as cult.
Claiming ours to be myth when it's infact not, in any respect.

And so many errors from all parties of argument.

Katsumoto:

O knowledgeable one, the fountain of all knowledge, the embodiment of all knowledge

Please share your knowledge with us. We beg you.


At best, it is lazy and at worst, it is dishonest to state that others are wrong on a subject when you offer no corrections, insight, or knowledge.

ghostofsparta:

Thing is I'm tired of correcting misconceptions relating to topics like this. I have endeavored to do that and more in a book I'm still penning.

macof:
a load of bull I had in my head at that time -

itstpia8:


even now sef

9jacrip:



Ife people did not turn away from Obatala and they did not pledge allegiance - the only person/family that pledged allegiance was the Obameri.

The leader at that time has been exiled, what do you expect?

macof:


This obameri character I don't know. He was a warrior I suppose but was he an Oba of one of the pre-oduduwa communes?

and are these names all part of Obatala's alias: osangangan obamakin, oseremaigbo, oreluere

9jacrip:


Yes, Obameri was not only a warrior but Oduduwa's top general during his reign. No he was not an Oba before Oduduwa (I would like to think he was one of Odudwa's bandits when he came usurped power) but he reigned during Oduduwa's period, he saw to the exile of Obatala during the face off with Oduduwa.

Obameri is attributed to death - he plays very paramount role each time an Ooni "wo àjà"

The Obameri clan and mine are antithetic, although no open confrontations. During Itapa Festival (Obatala), there is a partical day during the 21 days between December and January when Obameri clan celebrate what seems like 'Obatala's defeat and exile' only!

Obameri was killed by Oranfe (god of thunder, lightening and fire) during the Oduduwa & BabaYeye's face off.

Osangangan Obamakin was an Ooni, Oseeremagbo is one of Obatala's orikis while Oreluere is said to be a figure that ruled pre Oduduwa.

macof:

Who is Babayeye?

So Osangangan is not part of Obatala's oriki? I thought it was. Do you know Obatala's oriki well?

another question, Whats the relationship between Obalesun and Obatala, was Obalesun a title Obatala held as Oba of Idita and Iranje? can Obalesun be any member of Idita or must be a descendant of Obatala?