Welcome, Guest: Register On Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / NewStats: 3,158,137 members, 7,835,812 topics. Date: Tuesday, 21 May 2024 at 03:21 PM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / What They Don't Tell You About Atheism (18511 Views)
Since I've Joined Nairaland,what I've Learned About Atheism / Apatheist, Let's Talk About Atheism. / My Atheism And Its Effect On My Mum! (2) (3) (4)
(1) (2) (3) ... (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (Reply) (Go Down)
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 11:11am On Oct 11, 2014 |
MacCantStopMe:If this is true, then there is no such thing as a good or a bad life and consequently there are no good or evil actions. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 11:13am On Oct 11, 2014 |
MrAnony1: Logicboy didn't lay any assumptions for you to imply such. The conclusion flows from your own assumptions, not logicboy's. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MacCantStopMe: 11:13am On Oct 11, 2014 |
MrAnony1: FALSE argument. Non sequitur- it doesnt follow. Purpose and morality are two different things entirely. A blank slate can be filled with good or evil. 1 Like |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by OlaAjia(m): 11:16am On Oct 11, 2014 |
MrAnony1: You didn't miss the verses, but you didn't answer my question either. It was simple: Is slavery objectively right or wrong according to your world view? Can you for once be direct and stop your prolix meanders and posturing. You've asserted that my worldview is wrong, it's fallacious, it's this and that...okay! Now, Leave my world view out of this and answer my question according to YOUR worldview. 1 Like |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by SNCOQ3(m): 11:35am On Oct 11, 2014 |
Kay17:OK. I believe in Objective Morality therefore, I agree with Anony. A peacemaker is not necessarily a pacifist. A pacifist is out of touch with the reality of the human condition in regard to evil: therefore, a fool. Wrong. think about it. It is the user that is good or evil, not the tool. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by thehomer: 11:41am On Oct 11, 2014 |
MrAnony1: It doesn't look like you're laughing. It looks to me like you're simply showing your fear. MrAnony1: And here he comes with rephrasing a question he is supposed to answer. Once again, [size=14pt]I've not asked you to rephrase my question, I asked you to answer it.[/size] If rephrasing it helps you, go ahead but answer it. I already told you to use your own understanding of what good is to answer the question but once again, you didn't answer, but you rephrased my question. MrAnony1: You'll notice that I answered your question directly I put it in bold for you just so you don't forget that I actually answered it. I've decided not to answer your follow up question because you've so far not answered any of my questions but rephrased one of them. If you want my answer, then stop rephrasing my question and actually present your answers to my questions. MrAnony1: I already told you that your answer wasn't clear. MrAnony1: You don't have to say it. Your responses already show it. You've tried so hard not to answer direct questions that it shows your fear of actually presenting an answer. MrAnony1: If it has been presented successfully, then use that presentation to answer my questions rather than rephrasing one of them. MrAnony1: That isn't a claim, you've demonstrated it by not answering simple and direct questions. MrAnony1: Yes I'm that good. MrAnony1: You understood the question well enough to rephrase it but you won't answer the original one? This tells me you're not clarifying it, but you're simply failing to be dishonest. Once again, don't rephrase it, answer it. MrAnony1: Asked and answered. Your phrase "that which we ought to do" requires clarification. MrAnony1: Asked and answered. No I do not agree. Neutron stars ought to be but what is their purpose? [size=14pt]So, here again are the questions you've run from. 1. What does the phrase "that which we ought to do" mean? Please clarify with examples. 2. Is it good to command someone to kill their child? I think this can be answered with a yes or no with a brief explanation of course. 3. What is the objective way to live? 4. Is it evil to enslave other humans? 5. Is it evil to kill people at the whims of another person? 6. Is it evil to simply torture the vast majority of humans? 7. What is the correct sect of Christianity if at all it exists? Don't rephrase them, don't ignore them, just answer them. That is the first step in clarification about what you're trying to say and showing that you're trying to have an honest conversation.[/size] |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by thehomer: 11:49am On Oct 11, 2014 |
OlaAjia: Let's watch MrAnony1 run from answering a direct question. 3 Likes |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by SNCOQ3(m): 11:50am On Oct 11, 2014 |
MacCantStopMe:See decree. You must be god.
If your life is a blank slate, who is this you that is filling the 'blank slate' or using this 'tool' that is your life? Why is this you a moral being/morally concious, and as once argued for universal morality in the person of cheers01 |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by AgentOfAllah: 11:50am On Oct 11, 2014 |
MrAnony1: It is a statement, not an answer because there was no question. And it is vague...So far everybody with whom you're having this discussion has been asking you for clarification since 19gbogboro and you have refused...like an artful dodger MrAnony1: Yes, but clarify your previous statement. MrAnony1: You don't have to tell me anything. However, we're having an adult discussion here, I hope. It's borderline haughty to postpone my question and then require me to answer yours, so you first...or explain why you don't have to tell me that purpose. Don't just prescribe to me as if I'm a child. MrAnony1: The examples I gave are evidently fallacious in light of your statement, but they are not vague, and I find nothing inherently fallacious in them, which is why I need you to clarify your statement...or show me the fallacy in them. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MacCantStopMe: 11:56am On Oct 11, 2014 |
SNCOQ3: I still argue for universal morality. However, you forget 2 things a) Purpose is far different from morality. They are independent of each other. b) There are some things (morality) that are universal and some (morality) that cant be universal |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 12:10pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
SNCOQ3: In the light of your agreement with Anony1 on morality, does God's intent for mankind have a moral value? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 12:13pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
Let me clarify for Anony since he won't do it himself. We ought to do good because God's nature is goodness. This is apparent for everyone to see, and it's a "universal and objective truth" that morality and goodness emanate from God. Since everyone believes in God, even those who deny his existence, everyone is bound by the morality of our creator. This morality is objective and immutable; and it can be described as what we ought to do. Since we ought to do good, we conclude that we have a purpose and that purpose can only come from God because God is goodness. 3 Likes |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by SNCOQ3(m): 12:34pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
MacCantStopMe:Well, I consider universal morality a face-saving "alternative" to objective morality. Its a humanistic diversion of the the destructive logical conclusion of atheist belief: the consequence of relativistic and nihilistic mindset. They are far different the way a plate of beans is different from the stomach. As for independence, you have to elaborate. That is not the argument. Since your life is a blank slate, who is this morally-aware being that is doing the filling? The point is, you cannot hold that you are a moral being and still consider your life a blank slate. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 12:42pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
MrAnony1: They don't mean the same thing because the first question is about the desirability of the action and the second question is about advisability. We don't ought to do everything we desire and everything we ought to do isn't desirable. You should answer Homer's questions now and quit rephrasing questions and dodging. Watching you flail and "lolololol" is fun though. 2 Likes |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by SNCOQ3(m): 12:45pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
@cheers01, By universal morality, I mean "morality by consensus" a la Humanist Manifesto. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MacCantStopMe: 12:47pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
SNCOQ3: Your arguments do not follow. I am having a hard time finding where to start. But I'll try; 1) When you have a blank chalkboard, you can draw beautiful or ugly things on it. Very simple analogy. just as in life, you can give yourself a good or bad purpose. I dont know how to explain this any further. 2) Universal morality stems from the fact that logic remains true wherever you are in the universe. Mathematically, 1+1 will always be 2. Stealing from your neighbour's pot will always carry more disadvantage than advantages. The problem is that logic can not be applied to all moral issues. Those ones get you into logical paradoxes 1 Like |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by SNCOQ3(m): 12:48pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
Kay17:God is Morality. Anything He does is in agreement with Himself. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by OlaAjia(m): 12:49pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
thehomer: I'm guessing he's realised his folly somewhere along the line, but refuses to back down because it might chip a little chunk off his apologetic street cred. The only alternative is to keep wriggling his way out with even more spectacularly vague sentences. It is clear that he's just happy to dwell on the perfunctory. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 12:50pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
MrAnony1: Since everyone wants you to clarify, I won't put that burden on you. So I agree that there is a mind purposing, and you don't have to tell me the purpose. Now what? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MacCantStopMe: 12:51pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
SNCOQ3: God is morality? Yet, 90% of his prophets will be considered immoral today. Moses, Joshua, Abraham, Solomon etc would be in police custody for terrorism, child abuse etc Yet, God himself in the form of Jesus was racist to a Canaanite woman. Yet, no two followers of God can agree on his morality. God is the opposite of morality |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 12:58pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
SNCOQ3: What does this mean? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by OlaAjia(m): 1:31pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
SNCOQ3: Alas, the danger in the objective view of morality is that it inexorably leads to the conflation of 'universality' and 'objectivity'. Two, different things, no doubt. Even though it may be said that the notion of morality is universally accepted by humans, morality doesn't exist independent of humans, so it is subjective (i.e. subject to human interpretation). You can ponder and postulate upon the existence of an objective entity, but you can never make the leap to assert its existence, for to do so, you must first vacate the confining constructs of your sensory devices (i.e. your mind). In simple terms, it is impossible to sense objectivity, so you cannot claim anything is ontologically objective. This does not mean you don't perceive things in a definite way. Now, if a collective of entities (say people) have similar sensors - that is, they have minds - as you, then your sensations will necessarily be similar, hence the erroneous perception of objective morality. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 1:49pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
SNCOQ3: In other words, God commands and obeys himself?! |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by AgentOfAllah: 1:51pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
Martian: Later MrAnony1 will claim he's not the one converting is to ought and whatnots to whatwhat. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by SNCOQ3(m): 2:25pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
MacCantStopMe:Doesn't this illustration contradict your materialist world view? Who is this you that is making a moral choice of giving yourself a good or bad purpose? You don't seem to get it. If this you is the same as what you described as the "blank chalkboard" (yourself), then their is no such thing as a "blank chalkboard". Its interesting that your idea of universal morality is not "morality by consensus". In order words, just like logic, universal morality is transcendental - if this is what you mean, then its just another name for objective morality. how so? giving that morality is transcendental- the choice of stealing should not be predicated on personal advantage. care to explain? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by SNCOQ3(m): 2:33pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
MacCantStopMe:I wasn't expecting you to agree. But, at least you seem to understand the implication of what you quoted, unlike those who are pretending not to. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by SNCOQ3(m): 2:40pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
OlaAjia: Is 1+1 = 2 subjective? Does it require a consensus of "similar sensors" to reach such conclusion? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by OlaAjia(m): 3:17pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
SNCOQ3: Yes. Now you tell me, is 1+1+1= 3 =1 objective? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 3:24pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
1 Like |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by SNCOQ3(m): 3:35pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MacCantStopMe: 3:35pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
SNCOQ3: Consensus? When did I argue for concensus morality? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 3:38pm On Oct 11, 2014 |
MacCantStopMe: I don't even know how he got to that conclusion. |
(1) (2) (3) ... (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (Reply)
God Will Soon Pass His Judgment On Corrupt Nigerians – Mrs Foluke Adeboye / William Kumuyi Celebrates His 75 Birthday Today! / Can There Be Prosperity Without The Tithe? - John Avanzini
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 86 |