vooks:
Actually,is there ANY Chrisitan experience/doctrine that is totally unique to Christianity? They are very few if at all.
What do I do if I run into pagans praying? Should I desist from prayer?
The point is this line of argument of comparing Charismatic/Pentecostal acts to non-Christian acts and dismissing the Pentecostal as demonic, is weak.

Long before Solomon Temple was constructed, pagans had temples. Did Solomon borrow from pagans?

WinsomeX:


He said a lot more than just comparing them to pagan practices. The point he is making is that if a so called Christian practice has more examples in paganism and non at all in the bible, it is safe to conclude such is not Christian.

So pagans pray. Fine. But Jesus and his disciples prayed too. So prayer is scriptural.

Pagan laugh in the spirit, roll on the floor, make animal sounds, etc. Jesus and his disciples didn't do such. So such practices are not Christian.

It is unfair to God's Holy Spirit to claim that bc his ways are mysterious then he can carry out manifestations today he didn't do in scriptures. If that is so and we expected to prove all things by a given standard, hopefully scriptures, where do we find these manifestations.

I think you should read the text of those conferences with less prejudice.

WinsomeX:


Thank you Bidam for this question and it has been well answered by vooks, although the answer will be further taught by the 18 presentations in the conference.

Let me state clearly from the start that the presenters at this conference call themselves CESSATIONIST. Cessationism is a veiw of scriptures that considers the offices of an apostles and a prophet, along with the gifts that they operated to have ceased after the canon of scriptures was completed. This views comes with a doctrine that teaches The Sufficiency of Scriptures. They argue that to have apostles and prophets, whose messages can be validated with signs and wonders is to consider the bible insufficient. That is, we are saying the bible is not complete and God is saying things, new things, outside the things he had already said in the bible. They believe that such is the root of all errors in the body of Christ today, and the best way to guard against this is to hold a cessationist biblical view. Gifts of the Spirit cessationist believe no longer exist today are tongues, prophecy, hearing words from God, signs and wonders. Cessationists however believe that God can work a miracle today for his purpose and in his sovereignity but they insist miracles are not being wrought at the large scale that the apostles did. The whole conference was their views on these.

The cessationist criticised all charismatic groups including Catholics, Pentecostals, white garment and a group they call CONTINUTIONISTS. These group of evangelicals believe basically the same doctrine with cessationist, they are however careful not to insist certain gift have ceased. They believe Charismatics should be given some hearing. So the cessationist came dosn heavy on some continuitionists like John Piper and Grudem.

I am presenting these views here for our perusal, learning and discussions.

CC: Striktlymi, PastorKn, Peter007, MarkMiwrds, shdemidmi.

striktlymi:


I don't quite agree with their view about the completeness of Sacred scriptures.

With respect to God's Revelations, Sacred scriptures is far from from complete. Christ was very explicit when he made us understand that we can only experience the completeness of truth in God on the last day when everything will be revealed and we shall see God as he truly is.

[b]The Cessionist's view about the completeness of Sacred scriptures leaves a lot to be desired because for starters, it implies that we already know all there is to know about God[/b]This is not true unless I am missing something.

shdemidemi:


I don't think a cessationist will agree with you that mankind now know all there is to know about God. Personally, I believe the word can not be exhausted hence we are opened to different dimensions of the book daily. What they seem to disagree with are unique, mostly unverified subjective revelations by men to support or validate the infallible scripture.

striktlymi:


I may be more inclined to understand their position if the bold is what they actually believe but is it the case?

Anyways, their belief in the 'completeness of Sacred scriptures' is very subjective too. I don't think there is any Apostle or Prophet that has made the claim of a 'complete' Sacred scriptures. This makes me wonder where they got that teaching from.

shdemidemi:



I have little or no confidence in those people who speak of having received direct revelations
 from the Lord, as though he appeared otherwise than by and through the sacred scriptures. His word 
is so full, so perfect, that for God to make any fresh revelation/expośe to you or me is quite needless.

shdemidemi:


I believe Hebrews 1:1 made it quite clear that God isn't a talkative neither is he a reactionary God. The bible make us understand that He had all things well and fully predestined even before they were made and through Jesus (i.e His word) He said all that pertains to our existence.

Paul particularly warned against fresh revelations from anyone or spirit asides what was taught and written by the Apostles.

striktlymi:


I don't quite agree with their view about the completeness of Sacred scriptures.

With respect to God's Revelations, Sacred scriptures is far from from complete. Christ was very explicit when he made us understand that we can only experience the completeness of truth in God on the last day when everything will be revealed and we shall see God as he truly is.

The Cessionist's view about the completeness of Sacred scriptures leaves a lot to be desired because for starters, it implies that we already know all there is to know about God. This is not true unless I am missing something.

striktlymi:


Sacred scriptures to a large extent is the 'safe' point of reference for everyone but personally I do not believe Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ intended that any of his people get to 'know about God through all that is documented in Sacred scriptures'.

If that was the case, Sacred scriptures in the form we have it now would have been completed before the Apostles began their sacred ministry. I believe firmly that our one true teacher is the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit is what Christ promised his Church. The Spirit is both teacher and the medium through which God reveals his truth. The workings of God's Spirit did not start nor end with the Apostles.

Christ's Spirit has been before the beginning of time. It has been before the fall of man. It has always been there, molding, teaching, nurturing and speaking into the hearts of men.

The Spirit is the one, true and infallible teacher. Without the Spirit, Sacred scriptures would have been a compilation of many books with no meaning. The Spirit is active and alive in the life and ministry of the Church to this very day.

To hold the view that Sacred scriptures is 'complete' in the manner of the cessationist's is to deny the very essence and workings of the Holy Spirit.

WinsomeX:


There are many scriptural evidence that points to the fact that the bible is God's sufficient revelation to the world. God is not saying anything outside what he has said in the bible.

This is the God's way to us to test falsehood. Anything new must be compared to the truth of scriptures. The fact that we have Christians having difficulty seeing the bible as God's sufficient revelation to humanity is the reason error reigns today.

See:

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Jude 3

KJV:Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

ESV:Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

NIV:Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

AMP:Beloved, my whole concern was to write to you in regard to our common salvation. [But] I found it necessary and was impelled to write you and urgently appeal to and exhort [you] to contend for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints [the faith which is that sum of Christian belief which was delivered verbally to the holy people of God].

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

In physics there might be a need to calibrate measuring instruments after years of usage due to the fact that they maybe loosing their edge for accuracy. What is usually done is to compare the instrument meant for calibration with a machine that maintains 100% accuracy. Anywhere the instrument lacks accuracy, it is quickly adjusted.

The same goes with the bible and the Christian walk. Our walk with God is extremely error prone. The bible is our means of "calibration" to restore us back to the path of truth. Can you now imagine this same bible needing "calibration"; that is, the bible is not complete but requires occasional update through new revelations?

Jude told us that the gospel was delivered ONCE AND FOR ALLto us; it is not lacking anything.

Again, when the truth of the sufficiency of scriptures is belittled, it allows for all sort of errors to wade in.

WinsomeX:


[There are many scriptural evidence that points to the fact that the bible is God's sufficient revelation to the world. God is not saying anything outside what he has said in the bible.

This is the God's way to us to test falsehood. Anything new must be compared to the truth of scriptures. The fact that we have Christians having difficulty seeing the bible as God's sufficient revelation to humanity is the reason error reigns today.

See:

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Jude 3

KJV:Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

ESV:Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

NIV:Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

AMP:Beloved, my whole concern was to write to you in regard to our common salvation. [But] I found it necessary and was impelled to write you and urgently appeal to and exhort [you] to contend for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints [the faith which is that sum of Christian belief which was delivered verbally to the holy people of God].

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

In physics there might be a need to calibrate measuring instruments after years of usage due to the fact that they maybe loosing their edge for accuracy. What is usually done is to compare the instrument meant for calibration with a machine that maintains 100% accuracy. Anywhere the instrument lacks accuracy, it is quickly adjusted.

The same goes with the bible and the Christian walk. Our walk with God is extremely error prone. The bible is our means of "calibration" to restore us back to the path of truth. Can you now imagine this same bible needing "calibration"; that is, the bible is not complete but requires occasional update through new revelations?

Jude told us that the gospel was delivered ONCE AND FOR ALLto us; it is not lacking anything.

Again, when the truth of the sufficiency of scriptures is belittled, it allows for all sort of errors to wade in.

shdemidemi:


The problem we might encounter is when we call ten people who claim they hear audibly and directly from the Holy Spirit to say a thing about an issue, we might end up getting ten completely different views. Many false teachers claim they speak directly from the Spirit, yet what they say isn't in line with the book. So where exactly do we draw the line?

I believe Paul held the office of the Holy Spirit as a mouthpiece. He revealed so many things that had been kept secret from men. If we were to hear from the Spirit, I don't believe it can be outside the WORD or MIND of the Spirit to the church.

striktlymi:


Sacred scriptures to a large extent is the 'safe' point of reference for everyone but personally I do not believe Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ intended that any of his people get to 'know about God through all that is documented in Sacred scriptures'.

If that was the case, Sacred scriptures in the form we have it now would have been completed before the Apostles began their sacred ministry. I believe firmly that our one true teacher is the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit is what Christ promised his Church. The Spirit is both teacher and the medium through which God reveals his truth. The workings of God's Spirit did not start nor end with the Apostles.

Christ's Spirit has been before the beginning of time. It has been before the fall of man. It has always been there, molding, teaching, nurturing and speaking into the hearts of men.

The Spirit is the one, true and infallible teacher. Without the Spirit, Sacred scriptures would have been a compilation of many books with no meaning. The Spirit is active and alive in the life and ministry of the Church to this very day.

To hold the view that Sacred scriptures is 'complete' in the manner of the cessationist's is to deny the very essence and workings of the Holy Spirit.

WinsomeX:


This is the exact sort of thinking scriptures warns against and which the conference wishes to correct.

The Holy Spirit authored scriptures through men. But the Holy Spirit is not saying anything beyond what he has already said in scriptures.

WinsomeX:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

striktlymi:


Those passages refer to specifics and not the 'completeness of Sacred scriptures'. Remember that your quotes were gotten from originally separate texts before they were fused to form one Bible, and they were written at different times...not all in one.

Your first quote from Galatians was written before the book of Revelations.

If that quote from Galatians was referring to the completeness of sacred scriptures in the way the Cessationists see it then it would imply that the book of Revelations, written at a later date was an addition to the already 'completed' scriptures.

That is far from what the case really is. Those quotes were not meant to teach us that Sacred scriptures is complete.

striktlymi:
Lol!

Firstly...

The bold below:

has no correlation with your quote from Sacred scriptures:

The bold is your subjective viewpoint that is not backed by the passage you quoted. The passage gives us an insight into the union that exists in the 'Godhead'.

It helps us understand that any teaching from the Holy Spirit or the Son is directly from the Father. The Son and Spirit do not speak or teach of their own accord but give only what the Father has instructed.

Compare:

John 12:49
(King James Version (KJV))

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

WinsomeX:


Earlier when vooks asked me whether I was cessationist or continuationist I couldn't answer him because while I share a lot or views with cessationists, I think that they insisting the Holy Spirit never speaks is wrong. That scripture clearly says the Holy Spirit speaks. So when I said: "But the Holy Spirit is not saying anything beyond what he has already said in scriptures", I meant:

The Holy Spirit still speaks to Christians but he doesn't speak beyond what he authored in scriptures. The Holy Spirit will speak scriptures to us; he will birth life wisdom into us from the scriptures; he will remind us of biblical truths; he will show things to come. But the Holy Spirit will not say anything in disagreement with the spirit of scriptures.

Example:

Since the Holy Spirit never authored scriptures to imply that Christians should tithe, the Holy Spirit will NEVER instruct Christians to tithe. He may compel us to give but not tithe.

The Holy Spirit will never instruct a man to divorce his wife.

The Holy Spirit will never instruct anyone to build a conglomerate in the name of ministry.

The Holy Spirit will never instruct the church to ordain gay bishops.

The Holy Spirit will never instruct church people to eat grass; or female members to sleep with their pastors to get pregnant and break the hold of barrenness.

The Holy Spirit will always instruct on the path of righteousness and truth.

This is what I mean by the Holy Spirit not saying anything outside what he has said in scriptures.

nora544:
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits... So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit…Thus you will recognize them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:15-20).

begin this blog by apologising to all my Nigerian brothers and sisters for its title. At first sight it is rather offensive, but I hope that as you read on you will see why I elected to still use it as a title. As nations or tribes or social groupings we take on a certain characteristic that is not true about each person in the group but which we come to be identified with. Hence, Paul could write, “One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, ‘Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.’ This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith” (Titus 1:12-13). In the same way, we tend to (rightly or wrongly) identify Americans with arrogance, Kenyans with marathon running prowess, West Africans with fraudulent activities, Afrikaners with racism, etc.

I have just returned from a consultative meeting in South Africa where the first day was spent surveying the spiritual state of the countries in the southern African sub-region. Central to all this was the state of evangelicalism in all these countries. Nation after nation reported on the arrival of “Nigerian religious junk” that was changing the landscape of what there once was of evangelicalism. One or two of the countries were blessed exceptions. Evidently, this junk originated from mega-churches in the USA and then found ready soil in West Africa, and especially in Nigeria. Having given it an African flavour, it is now being exported across Africa at a phenomenal rate.

I feel very sad to write about this, but by “Nigerian religious junk” I mean the phenomenon of churches that are personal-to-holder. They exalt the personality of their founding father, who is still alive somewhere in Nigeria (or elsewhere) and is treated with the aura of a state president or paramount chief. It does not matter which country you go to, the bill boards of these churches do not have the faces of the local pastors of the congregations in those towns but of the founding father in Nigeria—or wherever he has since relocated. It is all about image and power. This “man of God” claims to hear the voice of God and proceeds to minister to you accordingly. If you do not obey him you are resisting the ministry of God into your life. So, the churches are often called “ministries” rather than churches. And to make them even more impressive, the term “international” is often added to their name.

The Africanisation of this religious junk is primarily in the way it has been made to appeal to African spirituality. The pastor is the modern witchdoctor calling all and sundry to come to him for “deliverance”. Just as the witchdoctor appealed to us by inviting us to see him for spiritual protection or when we were struggling with bad luck, childlessness, joblessness, illness, failure to attract a suitor for marriage or to rise in a job or get a contract, etc., these pastors do precisely the same thing. So-called prophetic utterances are made which explain why all this is happening, holy water or oil is prayed over and dispensed, and some money is extracted from the persons seeking help. Thus their churches attract thousands of people who are there for purely selfish reasons. The motivating factor is not reconciliation with God through Christ but rather “deliverance” from perceived evil and to be blessed through the supernatural powers that “the man of God” possesses. Let’s face it: this is our African traditional religions coming into the church through the back door.

The self-centredness of all this is seen in the worship. Churches are being turned into entertainment centres instead of edification centres. People come to church to be entertained, healed and blessed. The fact that professionals, who engage their brains when working with their hands five to six days a week, stop thinking and just dance and laugh in worship is extremely sad, in the light of the demand of God that we are to love him with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength. It has been the failure of Christians to think through the implications of their Christian faith on the whole of life that has left Africa filled with Christian churches and lack of development at the same time. Surely, if these professionals were thinking they would have added up one-plus-one by now and seen why their pastors have become stinking rich. It is not their faith but the money of their congregants, whom they cheat with promises, that makes them buy expensive cars and clothes and put up mansions. If one thousand individuals are “sowing the seed” every week to be blessed by the man of God, of course the man of God will get very rich while they will get poorer. That is simple common sense.

The result of this phenomenon of personal-to-holder churches has been the selective nature of church discipline. You do not discipline a Sangoma (i.e. witchdoctor)—or a chief! It is a known fact, even among the church members, that a number of these pastors have serious moral problems. However, “you do not touch the Lord’s anointed” and so they are not disciplined, even when they have impregnated girls in the church. One such anointed one in Zambia changed wives three times through divorce in less than six months and still remains the apostle of his church. To be fair, this man is a Zambian, but he has imbibed this personal-to-holder phenomenon from Nigeria. There must be accountability from everyone in the church—including the church pastor.

Yet another characteristic of this phenomenon which is particularly African is the craze for titles. We Africans love titles! Once upon a time, evangelical pastors were content to simply be called pastors. Terms like “bishop” were left to those who had an Episcopalian system of church government, which was a formal structure that rose to national and global level. Alas, that has now changed! With the advent of this Nigerian religious junk, it is titles galore! You now have bishops, arch-bishops, prophets, apostles, chief apostles, etc. Some are not even content with that and so have combinations like, “chief apostle prophet doctor so-and-so.” This is certainly very different from the teaching and personal lifestyle of the Lord Jesus Christ whom they claim to serve.

Many of these churches have since been discovered to be nothing more than fund-raising outfits, with sole proprietorship maintained by the pastor and his wife. The pattern seems to be: start a church and then milk the congregation. The pastors basically prey on the vulnerable and gullible. They are crooks and conmen. In a number of the southern African countries represented at the consultation, governments have sent these pastors packing upon finding undeniable proof that large stashes of money were being milked out of their citizens and being shipped to West Africa. This has made these governments very suspicious of anyone coming from any other African country as a missionary into their country. They now think that all African missionaries are just mercenaries.

Yet, the saddest part of all this has been the loss of the gospel. Once upon a time, you could go to any church that purported to be evangelical and once you survived what was called worship, you would hear a sermon that finally pointed you to Christ and him crucified for pardon from sin. That is now largely an exception, and is as rare as my great grandfather’s teeth. What you hear now are calls for “deliverance”, and you experience this by coming forward to be prayed for. Inevitably, once you lose the gospel, you lose true spirituality and morality. Christianity becomes a thin veneer of respectability but inside there is total corruption and decay. The church becomes a wardrobe full of skeletons. Or, to borrow a more biblical expression, the church is filled with white-washed tombs.

This explains why, although Nigeria is packed with such mega-churches (and is now exporting them across the continent), it is still the most corrupt nation on the continent. If church leaders are milking the people like this, what hope is there to correct things among the politicians and the civil servants? It is impossible! You cannot grow true spirituality where the cross of Christ and the Christ of the cross is absent. We must insist that the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit. Where holiness is conspicuous by its absence, we should never attribute what is happening there to God’s Spirit because he is a spirit of holiness. Crowds and people falling backwards upon being touched prove nothing if holiness of life is missing. Jesus said, “You will recognise them by their fruits.”

In this blog I have avoided naming names. This is because the consultation I have just come from did not name names. However, all I can say is, “If the hat fits you, put it on!” Anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear knows what I am talking about. Let me end by once again apologising to any genuine and sincere Nigerian pastors who distance themselves from all this junk. Just as I know a number of sweet American folks who are very humble, Kenyans who cannot run halfway around a football ground, and Afrikaners who are colour blind, I am sure there must be many West African pastors—and Nigerians for that matter—who will have nothing to do with this spiritual corruption. I only wish they were more vocal in condemning this religious junk being exported from their country!

Thus their churches attract thousands of people who are there for purely selfish reasons. The motivating factor is not reconciliation with God through Christ but rather “deliverance” from perceived evil and to be blessed through the supernatural powers that “the man of God” possesses. Let’s face it: this is our African traditional religions coming into the church through the back door.

WinsomeX:
I will still be providing a summary on MacArthur opening speech but I felt I should reproduce Nora link on Mbewe article on Nigerian religious Junk.

vooks, I believe we are saying the same thing. There is nothing wrong with it. You may read that post you quoted again

www.nairaland.com/2018507/nigerian-religious-junk#28402950

vooks:
Thank you WInsomex
Interesting post.
Spiritual gifts or charimatic are repeatedly characterized as means of new revelation in his speech. Do you find that in order?

And what it doesn’t say is this: The Holy Spirit knocks us down. The Holy Spirit makes us laugh in a silly way. The Holy Spirit amps up our body heat. The Holy Spirit gives us the hiccups. The Holy Spirit gives us convulsions, puts us in a stupor, makes us look drunk, causes us to fall down, speak gibberish, make primal sounds, jump, roll. Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.

WinsomeX:
^^^

MacArthur has a way of clearly bringing the truth sha...

shdemidemi:
Joni Earickson Tada's testimony is such a unique one that compels one to reevaluate ones appreciation of God for His mercies regardless of how bad, visible and real what we call problems may seem.

I had searched vigorously for this video after I came across it a while back at a christian conference I attended in the early part of the year.
Thank you so much OP for bringing up this life changing Job-like testimony here.