vooks:
The author posed a question I have never thought of; what is Holy Spirit doing in your life today?
(11) Finally, a question: To what does the Spirit bear witness? Certainly the resurrection of Christ. How about the scriptures? A particular interpretation perhaps? Eschatological issues? Exegetical issues? Don't be too quick to answer. Some of this needs rethinking . . . In fact, my challenge to each of you is this: reexamine the New Testament teaching about the Holy Spirit. Don't gloss over the passages, but wrestle with what they mean. If the Spirit did not die in the first century, then what is he doing today?

When you answer that, as honestly without resorting to politically correct spiritual answers, we will get somewhere

The major job of the Holy Spirit today is the job of a COMFORTER.

I must say one who perceives himself as comfortable will not need the help of the Holy Spirit. One who needs comfort is the one going through relative pains, worries, concerns and I must say we all have at least one thing within us that we will rather do without or change if we were in a position to do so; and that applies to every man regardless of their persuasions or belief.

The roar of the lion is designed to confuse the prey just as our problem are there to confuse us...…But the Holy Spirit through the word of God transforms a christian's view point regarding issues that would naturally perturb or unsettle him/her.

When we are moved by emotions when unfavourable things happen to us, we can only depend on the Holy Spirit for succour at such times.

Agreed but this has been his job ever since Pentecost.
How does the Holy Spirit help you in your devotion, bible study?

And who said emotions are necessarily a bad thing? Are we supposed to suppress emotions? What about the good times? Can't we be happy,excited? Calm? Sad?

shdemidemi:


The major job of the Holy Spirit today is the job of a COMFORTER.

I must say one who perceives himself as comfortable will not need the help of the Holy Spirit. One who needs comfort is the one going through relative pains, worries, concerns and I must say we all have at least one thing within us that we will rather do without or change if we were in a position to do so; and that applies to every man regardless of their persuasions or belief.

The roar of the lion is designed to confuse the prey just as our problem are there to confuse us...…But the Holy Spirit through the word of God transforms a christian's view point regarding issues that would naturally perturb or unsettle him/her.

When we are moved by emotions when unfavourable things happen to us, we can only depend on the Holy Spirit for succour at such times.

vooks:
Agreed but this has been his job ever since Pentecost.
How does the Holy Spirit help you in your devotion, bible study?

And who said emotions are necessarily a bad thing? Are we supposed to suppress emotions? What about the good times? Can't we be happy,excited? Calm? Sad?

As regards my bible study-He keeps me in remembrance of the right things of God that I read in scripture. He makes me make discerning judgements of biblical truths as I grow in Him.

Emotions can be evil as far as scripture is concerned.

We must learn to suppress emotions and stick stringently to God's word on any issue. Many christians have compromised the Word of God due to a high degree of emotion. Emotions make some accept gay people to be pastors, emotions make us accept women to pastor churches, emotions makes us make seemingly noble decisions that negate God's instructions. Emotions made Abraham take Lot along when he (Abram) was the one God called.

The life of a christian or rather the mind of a christian should never be controlled by haps or mishaps around him. We must learn to have a stable mind, a mind that that stays abase and abound at all times- Good or bad. This is why some question God though quietly when it is tough and sing Hosanna when things seem better. God wants us to be joyful independent of our situations and circumstances and this joy can only come by the Holy Spirit.

How do you know it is God showing you and not your own imagination?

Others study the same scriptures to their perdition. That's the point that is being made. Bibliolatry is worshiping scriptures. It is so impersonal, just exegesis,eisegesis, Greek, Aramaic,Hebrews and Aorist tenses..... If knowledge was all it took to save, the most schooled in theology would be the the leading lights but they are not. Even in Jesus times, the most educated in Torah were the furthest from the truth

Emotions just like everything else can be abused but you can't possibly divorce man from emotions. They are not invented but God given. Jesus wept,, Paul calls us to rejoice, weep with those who weep. Nobody is above emotions except hypocrites. BTW, which verses discredit emotion?

PS: You mean women shouldn't pastor?

shdemidemi:


As regards my bible study-He keeps me in remembrance of the right things of God that I read in scripture. He makes me make discerning judgements of biblical truths as I grow in Him.

Emotions can be evil as far as scripture is concerned.

We must learn to suppress emotions and stick stringently to God's word on any issue. Many christians have compromised the Word of God due to a high degree of emotion. Emotions make some accept gay people to be pastors, emotions make us accept women to pastor churches, emotions makes us make seemingly noble decisions that negate God's instructions. Emotions made Abraham take Lot along when he (Abram) was the one God called.

The life of a christian or rather the mind of a christian should never be controlled by haps or mishaps around him. We must learn to have a stable mind, a mind that that stays abase and abound at all times- Good or bad. This is why some question God though quietly when it is tough and sing Hosanna when things seem better. God wants us to be joyful independent of our situations and circumstances and this joy can only come by the Holy Spirit.

shdemidemi:

I will really like to know what you would rather have a cessationist do differently. I would also like to know those things you think they are missing however small you think they are.

Thank you demi for your question. Difficult but challenging all the same. Before I answer the question let me say that the cessationist have indeed gotten most things right. But bc we are human, there is a likelihood for us to take our positions to some extremes and sometimes God brings other extremes to our view to restore us. That, I think is the charismatics.

The concept of Sufficiency of Scripture is solid truth. It is true that the words of scriptures are sufficient to minister to the details of our lives and ministry. MacArthur was right when he said that the Word must not be separated from the Spirit. True grasp of spiritual realities should come from understanding scriptures. But...

There is a reason why the bible is not just one long theological text. Why its doctrine is closely associated with the stories and experiences of people from day to day. Jesus' life recorded in scriptures is an experience. His Holy Spirit comes along us each day to make the reality of Jesus real in our day after day experiences. These experiences have a proper perspectives for us with a solid grasp of theological truths but they are still experiences.

So regardless of the Christian, there are times of high and low; sickness and health; riches and poverty; etc. The Holy Spirit, in the light of scriptures, comfort us as you said, as he makes these realities take up new meaning in our lives. So we might attain the "all good" God intended them to be.

Now, this is where I might path with Cessationists. Part of the means of comforting the Christian is the Spirit speaking to Christians. Primarily through scriptures and at rare times through impressions, circumstances, providence or the still small voice.

This is where I also part with Charismatics, God is not talkative. The phrase "God told me..." is the most abused phrase among them and it should be discouraged. Charismatics need to be reminded that the scripture is the authoritative word from God and every other is to be tested in its light.

Paul taught us that the Spirit will lead us as Sons of God. Jesus said the Spirit will teach us and guide us into all truth. God through the Psalmist said that he will instruct us in the way we should go, Ps. 32:8. Jesus said that his sheep will gear his voice. Isaiah said we would hear a voice behind us saying this is the way walk in it. The sufficient scriptures makes all these blessings clearer to us.

This is where I think the Cessationist have gotten it wrong. A commitment to scriptures alone with a strong disdain for other means with which God might wish to reach us bc of fanatics. Again God speaks primarily through scriptures but bc he is God and he can use anything to reach us, we shouldn't put him in a box.

Winsomex, I agree with the highlighted.
I was watching Adeboye from Youtube and he said something I have never forgotten; he said God is not as talkative and the 'God told me' every minute crew are jokers. He said it was not until 450 years or so from Malachi that He spoke in Matthew. I was almost misled into marriage by a 'God told me' friend. Nowadays am wiser, so He told you? Let Him tell me as well

And let's not delude ourselves, neither charismatics nor cessationists can claim to be more objective over the other. Different sects in each camp is enough proof of this

WinsomeX:


Thank you demi for your question. Difficult but challenging all the same. Before I answer the question let me say that the cessationist have indeed gotten most things right. But bc we are human, there is a likelihood for us to take our positions to some extremes and sometimes God brings other extremes to our view to restore us. That, I think is the charismatics.

The concept of Sufficiency of Scripture is solid truth. It is true that the words of scriptures are sufficient to minister to the details of our lives and ministry. MacArthur was right when he said that the Word must not be separated from the Spirit. True grasp of spiritual realities should come from understanding scriptures. But...

There is a reason why the bible is not just one long theological text. Why its doctrine is closely associated with the stories and experiences of people from day to day. Jesus' life recorded in scriptures is an experience. His Holy Spirit comes along us each day to make the reality of Jesus real in our day after day experiences. These experiences have a proper perspectives for us with a solid grasp of theological truths but they are still experiences.

So regardless of the Christian, there are times of high and low; sickness and health; riches and poverty; etc. The Holy Spirit, in the light of scriptures, comfort us as you said, as he makes these realities take up new meaning in our lives. So we might attain the "all good" God intended them to be.

Now, this is where I might path with Cessationists. Part of the means of comforting the Christian is the Spirit speaking to Christians. Primarily through scriptures and at rare times through impressions, circumstances, providence or the still small voice.

This is where I also part with Charismatics, God is not talkative. The phrase "God told me..." is the most abused phrase among them and it should be discouraged. Charismatics need to be reminded that the scripture is the authoritative word from God and every other is to be tested in its light.

Paul taught us that the Spirit will lead us as Sons of God. Jesus said the Spirit will teach us and guide us into all truth. God through the Psalmist said that he will instruct us in the way we should go, Ps. 32:8. Jesus said that his sheep will gear his voice. Isaiah said we would hear a voice behind us saying this is the way walk in it. The sufficient scriptures makes all these blessings clearer to us.

This is where I think the Cessationist have gotten it wrong. A commitment to scriptures alone with a strong disdain for other means with which God might wish to reach us bc of fanatics. Again God speaks primarily through scriptures but bc he is God and he can use anything to reach us, we shouldn't put him in a box.

vooks:
How do you know it is God showing you and not your own imagination?

That is why it is important never to read any part of scripture for self glorification or aggrandisement. Until I see the hand of God and His mercy and His sovereignty reflect in a scripture I never accept that I am interpreting it right. The bible in its entirety isn't about man or to glorify man, it is holistically about a fair and merciful God and His disobedient creature.

vooks:
Others study the same scriptures to their perdition. That's the point that is being made. Bibliolatry is worshiping scriptures. It is so impersonal, just exegesis,eisegesis, Greek, Aramaic,Hebrews and Aorist tenses..... If knowledge was all it took to save, the most schooled in theology would be the the leading lights but they are not. Even in Jesus times, the most educated in Torah were the furthest from the truth

There is a difference between having head knowledge of scripture and understanding/believing what you know. Most with head knowledge don't understand neither can they comprehend or believe with all of their being the concept and efficacy of what they know. Most of the time these knowledge stays within the realm of the mind but a spiritual impulsed christian have this word conveyed and entrenched in the heart. They live it, act it and they become metamorphosed in to an image of Christ.

vooks:

Emotions just like everything else can be abused but you can't possibly divorce man from emotions. They are not invented but God given. Jesus wept,, Paul calls us to rejoice, weep with those who weep. Nobody is above emotions except hypocrites. BTW, which verses discredit emotion?

Emotions was imputed in us through DNA as far back as from Adam. Emotions are linked to the sinful nature of man. Immediate parents also pass emotions and by extension our total personality to us through genes. Invariably, our behaviours, our attitude, opinions, traits are linked and similar to that of our parents.

What the bible does is break down our personal opinions, emotions, ego, mentality to God's personality.

Romans 12 King James Version (KJV)

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world(This means we can't think like the world think, we can't copy them either): [size=40pt]but be ye transformed[/size] by the renewing of your mind(God needs a total refurbishment of the way we think and this thinking must be guided by His instructions), that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

vooks:
PS: You mean women shouldn't pastor?

Never.

shdemidemi:


That is why it is important never to read any part of scripture for self glorification or aggrandisement. Until I see the hand of God and His mercy and His sovereignty reflect in a scripture I never accept that I am interpreting it right. The bible in its entirety isn't about man or to glorify man, it is holistically about a fair and merciful God and His disobedient creature.

This means before you study scriptures to know about God, you need preconceived notions

There is a difference between having head knowledge of scripture and understanding/believing what you know. Most with head knowledge don't understand neither can they comprehend or believe with all of their being the concept and efficacy of what they know. Most of the time these knowledge stays within the realm of the mind but a spiritual impulsed christian have this word conveyed and entrenched in the heart. They live it, act it and they become metamorphosed in to an image of Christ.

What is the difference between understanding and head knowledge?
And what is the difference between mind and heart?

Emotions was imputed in us through DNA as far back as from Adam. Emotions are linked to the sinful nature of man. Immediate parents also pass emotions and by extension our total personality to us through genes. Invariably, our behaviours, our attitude, opinions, traits are linked and similar to that of our parents.

Emotions are part of your genetic make up. God made them. Nobody is free of emotions except corpses. We relate to God with all our hearts,mind and might. Emotion are part of the package

What the bible does is break down our personal opinions, emotions, ego, mentality to God's personality.


Romans 12 King James Version (KJV)

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world(This means we can't think like the world think, we can't copy them either): [size=40pt]but be ye transformed[/size] by the renewing of your mind(God needs a total refurbishment of the way we think and this thinking must be guided by His instructions), that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

These are generalities. What is mind? What has this verse got to do with emotions?

Never.

What happens when women pastor churches?

I completely agree with some things so I have cut them from the ones that I think we should lay on the canvass for checks.

WinsomeX:
There is a reason why the bible is not just one long theological text. Why its doctrine is closely associated with the stories and experiences of people from day to day. Jesus' life recorded in scriptures is an experience. His Holy Spirit comes along us each day to make the reality of Jesus real in our day after day experiences. These experiences have a proper perspectives for us with a solid grasp of theological truths but they are still experiences.

EXPERIENCES

What experience can ever leave the impression that compliment scripture?

I believe experiences come and they go. They are not a sure way of decoding the mind of God concerning anything. The best experience can offer us is sensual morals, traditions and legalism.

When I read stories, parables in the bible, I don't focus so much on the story but my focus is to find where God is in the story. He is always there in every parable or story. When we focus on the people all we find is what they had done to get, or what they had not done to avoid retribution. I think the stories isn't really about that but about what God is doing and what He will do. The stories embedded mysteries that must be unlocked with Jesus and God in the centre.

Remember Peter also had his experience at the mount of transfiguration. Some people go to a mount to seek God, they read meaning to that experience and some go without shoes because God told Moses to take off his shoes. This sort of thinking has become a custom and they sure make it a rule within themselves to do as Moses or as Peter did.

Peter puts it this way in his book- as great as his experience was on the mount of transfiguration, there was something more sure and steadfast for him to build his life and faith upon. It is as though Peter says, “As great as the experience on the mount of transfiguration was, it was fleeting and temporal. I have a word that is more sure and enduring than my experience on the mountaintop. This is a word that you can count on to be reliable forever!”

WinsomeX:

Now, this is where I might path with Cessationists. Part of the means of comforting the Christian is the Spirit speaking to Christians. Primarily through scriptures and at rare times through impressions, circumstances, providence or the still small voice.

I don't think these things can be accurate at all times. I think we sometimes mistake our conscience for the voice of God.

For illustration-no christian would ever accept that God's will for them could be to go to prison. I am not insensitive to the reasons why anybody will say no to such, at the end of the day we are humans- we don't like discomfort plus the 'what will people say' factor will also play a part in it. But God sent Joseph to prison, He kept him there until it was heavens time for him to fulfil purpose. At the end Joseph told his 'bad' brothers - 'You meant it for evil but God meant it for good'. I am sure Joseph wouldn't have said the same thing while in prison or if he had a choice in the matter before it played itself out.

What am I trying to say? We automatically dismiss a voice that brings pain to our body and we tag it as from the devil and the glittery voice of our mind we link to God. Sometimes we ignorantly pray against God's will.

WinsomeX:

Paul taught us that the Spirit will lead us as Sons of God. Jesus said the Spirit will teach us and guide us into all truth. God through the Psalmist said that he will instruct us in the way we should go, Ps. 32:8. Jesus said that his sheep will gear his voice. Isaiah said we would hear a voice behind us saying this is the way walk in it. The sufficient scriptures makes all these blessings clearer to us.

I don't think these passages mean God will reveal a full picture of His plan for us, to us. I think we will be completely unaware of what he is doing until we get to the end and look back.

I can remember I have asked God for so many things in the past that I did not get. Today, I can look back and thank God He didn't give them to me when I asked because I might not understand or know or be who I am now if He had given those things to me then. In my ignorance I could easily have called His love to question but now that I know better I thank Him because I turned out to be a better person in my thinking.

WinsomeX:
This is where I think the Cessationist have gotten it wrong. A commitment to scriptures alone with a strong disdain for other means with which God might wish to reach us bc of fanatics. Again God speaks primarily through scriptures but bc he is God and he can use anything to reach us, we shouldn't put him in a box.

I agree with you here to an extent.. I believe God speaks clearly and louder to us by disaster. I am sure many atheist-turn-christian found God in disaster.

vooks:

This means before you study scriptures to know about God, you need preconceived notions

I am not sure preconceived notion is the right statement. I think the reason why anyone should open the bible is to know and find out more about God. I think just seeing the sun, stars, moon, animals and the creation of the world should attract us to God. But its rather unfortunate that most people get attracted to God when they need something that is beyond their capacity to achieve. God becomes the last resort to achieving such things.

Therefore, When I go in the bible i go look for God. I believe when I find God through scriptures everything will be put in their right place.

vooks:
What is the difference between understanding and head knowledge?

Head knowledge was what the scribes and Pharisees had. They knew the letter inside out but when the reason for their education came they could not see it.

Understanding was what Apostle Paul had. He lived and died for what he knew about Christ, he wouldn't compromise, he became a servant in bond. Not only was he ready to suffer, he was ready to die for God's word. He was not only talking the talk, he was deeply rooted in what he was saying and his life remains a testimony to the power of God.

vooks:


And what is the difference between mind and heart?

Our mind is the place where all the junks we here are stored. The word of God if properly discerned also goes through the mind to the heart. The heart is a place where lies or false teachings can't reach. That is why we tell our spouse we love them from the bottom of our heart not our mind to prove sincerity.

vooks:

Emotions are part of your genetic make up. God made them. Nobody is free of emotions except corpses. We relate to God with all our hearts,mind and might. Emotion are part of the package

That is why we need to look at all things from the eye of scripture.. There are five essence of the soul we get from our parents and some from the community as we grow, the three main ones are- mentality, volition, emotion.

Our mentality, volition and emotion are not right, they have been tainted by sin in the likeness of Adam. Hence why we need a renewing of our maladjusted mind to conform with the mind of God.

God gives us a new heart when we become believers. This heart is nourished by the Word of God only.

vooks:
These are generalities. What is mind? What has this verse got to do with emotions?

We are a subtotal of the information resident in us. Our total personality is the outward manifestation of our inner being. You can't separate the state of your mind from your actions.

vooks:
What happens when women pastor churches?

When a woman pastor a church, it is a disobedience to God and His word concerning the issuue

shdemidemi:


I am not sure preconceived notion is the right statement. I think the reason why anyone should open the bible is to know and find out more about God. I think just seeing the sun, stars, moon, animals and the creation of the world should attract us to God. But its rather unfortunate that most people get attracted to God when they need something that is beyond their capacity to achieve. God becomes the last resort to achieving such things.

Therefore, When I go in the bible i go look for God. I believe when I find God through scriptures everything will be put in their right place.

You are looking for a God you already know about.

Head knowledge was what the scribes and Pharisees had. They knew the letter inside out but when the reason for their education came they could not see it.

You have not distinguished between the two

Understanding was what Apostle Paul had. He lived and died for what he knew about Christ, he wouldn't compromise, he became a servant in bond. Not only was he ready to suffer, he was ready to die for God's word. He was not only talking the talk, he was deeply rooted in what he was saying and his life remains a testimony to the power of God.

How do you move from knowledge to understanding? Can you understand without knowing?

Our mind is the place where all the junks we here are stored. The word of God if properly discerned also goes through the mind to the heart. The heart is a place where lies or false teachings can't reach. That is why we tell our spouse we love them from the bottom of our heart not our mind.

Jeremiah would differ with you. He says the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked

That is why we need to look at all things from the eye of scripture.. There are five essence of the soul we get from our parents and some from the community as we grow, the three main ones are- mentality, volition, emotion.

Our mentality, volition and emotion are not right, they have been tainted by sin in the likeness of Adam. Hence why we need a renewing of our maladjusted mind to conform with the mind of God.

Does coming to Christ dispense with our emotions? Are you emotional Mr Shdemidemi?

God gives us a new heart when we become believers. This heart is nourished by the Word of God only.

We are a subtotal of the information resident in us. Our total personality is the outward manifestation of our inner being. You can't separate the state of your mind from your actions.

Where do our emotions reside, heart or mind?

When a woman pastor a church, it is a disobedience to God and His word concerning the issuue

Which Word?

vooks:
Winsomex, I agree with the highlighted.
I was watching Adeboye from Youtube and he said something I have never forgotten; he said God is not as talkative and the 'God told me' every minute crew are jokers. He said it was not until 450 years or so from Malachi that He spoke in Matthew. I was almost misled into marriage by a 'God told me' friend. Nowadays am wiser, so He told you? Let Him tell me as well

And let's not delude ourselves, neither charismatics nor cessationists can claim to be more objective over the other. Different sects in each camp is enough proof of this

i know many times when you can read from adeboye my father told me.........

I can show you he is very good in twisting the sriptures like he need it that he can show himself in a good light.

Who told him this, that on his churchhomepage is also a button that you can donate a gift(money) to him.

I don't know much about his theology but I heard those words from him first. Just as Winsomex put it.
Now, nora544, every time I run into your posts I find criticism of ministers. Just like Frosbel. Apart from tearing everything you run into apart, it helps to break the monotony by sharing with us what you have done for God as well as WHO we should follow and not just who we should avoid.

The reason is all too clear. Many critics here shy away from giving us examples of ministers worth listening yet they never hesitate to 'name and shame' everyone preaching anything they don't agree with. Why is this? I guess it is some form of defense mechanism; we can't criticize what we don't know so they HIDE that from everyone while pouring vitriol on others

nora544:


i know many times when you can read from adeboye my father told me.........

I can show you he is very good in twisting the sriptures like he need it that he can show himself in a good light.

Who told him this, that on his churchhomepage is also a button that you can donate a gift(money) to him.

vooks:

You are looking for a God you already know about.

There is a difference between awareness and knowing.

Most christians are aware of the truth and God not many know God in His fullness and concept.

vooks:

You have not distinguished between the two.

ok

vooks:
How do you move from knowledge to understanding?

You move from knowledge to understanding when you make a decision to submit your life to God as His slave(bond).

vooks:
Can you understand without knowing?

NO

vooks:
Jeremiah would differ with you. He says the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked

He wouldn't. Jeremiah spoke of the heart of man. He is saying man is evil, His thoughts is continually wicked. This isn't just because we are morally wrong or emotionally wrong, it is because we can't please God in our flesh no matter how much we try.

God gives us a new heart at regeneration.

vooks:
Does coming to Christ dispense with our emotions?

Coming to Christ does not. Studying God's word does. Coming to Christ justifies, studying scripture renew our distorted way of thinking

vooks:
Are you emotional Mr Shdemidemi?

yes. That is to tell you we are all a work in progress. I am not where I was yesterday.

2 cor 3
18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

vooks:
Where do our emotions reside, heart or mind?

On the mind

vooks:
Which Word?

1 Tim 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

shdemidemi:

There is a difference between awareness and knowing.
Most christians are aware of the truth and God not many know God in His fullness and concept.

What's the difference between awareness and knowing?

You move from knowledge to understanding when you make a decision to submit your life to God as His slave(bond).

So there is no room for KNOWLEDGE in Christianity?

NO

He wouldn't. Jeremiah spoke of the heart of man. He is saying man is evil, His thoughts is continually wicked. This isn't just because we are morally wrong or emotionally wrong, it is because we can't please God in our flesh no matter how much we try.

You said the heart can't be evil. I just showed you it is inherently evil

God gives us a new heart at regeneration.

Agreed

Coming to Christ does not. Studying God's word does. Coming to Christ justifies, studying scripture renew our distorted way of thinking

1 Tim 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

there are other places in Paul’s letters that prohibit things that are clearly cultural – women cutting off their hair or shaving their heads (1 Cor 11:6), men having long hair (1 Cor 11:14), or women wearing jewelry and braiding their hair (1 Tim 2:9). Do you subscribe to ANY of these?

shdemidemi:

I completely agree with some things so I have cut them from the ones that I think we should lay on the canvass for checks.

Ok

shdemidemi:

EXPERIENCES
What experience can ever leave the impression that compliment scripture?
I believe experiences come and they go. They are not a sure way of decoding the mind of God concerning anything. The best experience can offer us is sensual morals, traditions and legalism.
When I read stories, parables in the bible, I don't focus so much on the story but my focus is to find where God is in the story. He is always there in every parable or story. When we focus on the people all we find is what they had done to get, or what they had not done to avoid retribution. I think the stories isn't really about that but about what God is doing and what He will do. The stories embedded mysteries that must be unlocked with Jesus and God in the centre.
Remember Peter also had his experience at the mount of transfiguration. Some people go to a mount to seek God, they read meaning to that experience and some go without shoes because God told Moses to take off his shoes. This sort of thinking has become a custom and they sure make it a rule within themselves to do as Moses or as Peter did.
Peter puts it this way in his book- as great as his experience was on the mount of transfiguration, there was something more sure and steadfast for him to build his life and faith upon. It is as though Peter says, “As great as the experience on the mount of transfiguration was, it was fleeting and temporal. I have a word that is more sure and enduring than my experience on the mountaintop. This is a word that you can count on to be reliable forever!”

I agree with you. Experience is a very unsure way of following God in Christianity. What, however, I am pointing out is that our experiences are authored by God for a purpose and while we do not build doctrine on them, we cannot deny them.

Take the minister Wallace. He spoke of how the fire of his devotion died bc of commitment to rigour of study alone. He insinuates that the experience of his child and student illness has rejuvenated his prayer life. Something mere bible study couldn't.

We both believe in providence. What more is God's providence than God working his will into us through the things that happen around us: experiences?

shdemidemi:

I don't think these things can be accurate at all times. I think we sometimes mistake our conscience for the voice of God.

This is where I am with cessionists. No matter how clearly anyone today has heard from God, what he heard is not prophecy. Neither is it scripture. The mere fact that the human flesh, human desires and idiosyncrasies can "polute" this so called prophecy, renders it unreliable. Does this then mean that God cannot speak to us today? No. It simply means that whatever we hear God said has no authority. It is a word to us that must be taken by faith. This is the reason people should not go around flaunting a thus saith the Lord around. We should flaunt the more Sure Word of prophecy. But can keep those words private to ourselves. If they are God, they will materialize. If not, all good. It should never be preached on a pulpit and if it is a private message, it must be relayed with a high degree of uncertainty. IT IS NOT PROPHECY.

vooks:

What's the difference between awareness and knowing?

do you think they are the same?

I can be aware of something but lack adequate knowledge of the said thing.

vooks:
So there is no room for KNOWLEDGE in Christianity?

Of course there is. Why do you study your bible?

vooks:

You said the heart can't be evil. I just showed you it is inherently evil

Jeremiah referred to the heart of man generally and not the heart of God that comes with the new nature/new man/new heart.

vooks:

there are other places in Paul’s letters that prohibit things that are clearly cultural – women cutting off their hair or shaving their heads (1 Cor 11:6), men having long hair (1 Cor 11:14), or women wearing jewelry and braiding their hair (1 Tim 2:9). Do you subscribe to ANY of these?

I have explained the issue with the church in Corinth with you before now. It was the hub of idolatry, prostitution and all form of illicit activities. Paul was addressing these new corinth converts (spiritual babes) who live in the middle of the madness going on to dress and behave in a certain way. He also told the men not to pick wives at that period. He gave them those instructions due to the situation of their environment.


Paul was addressing Timothy on how the church should be conducted. All he was saying about women here was modesty in the church.

There is no excuse for disobeying scripture really. NO WOMAN SHOULD PASTOR.

SO covering heads is a 'local' problem but pastoring is not?
You have not answered me on Timothy where Paul was specific that his definition of modesty included NO BRAIDS OR JEWELERY. Is this applicable to you?

shdemidemi:


I have explained the issue with the church in Corinth with you before now. It was the hub of idolatry, prostitution and all form of illicit activities. Paul was addressing these new corinth converts (spiritual babes) who live in the middle of the madness going on to dress and behave in a certain way. He also told the men not to pick wives at that period. He gave them those instructions due to the situation of their environment.


Paul was addressing Timothy on how the church should be conducted. All he was saying about women here was modesty in the church.

There is no excuse for disobeying scripture really. NO WOMAN SHOULD PASTOR.

vooks:
SO covering heads is a 'local' problem but pastoring is not?
You have not answered me on Timothy where Paul was specific that his definition of modesty included NO BRAIDS OR JEWELERY. Is this applicable to you?

Paul gave the reason why women should not pastor a church. He linked it all the way back to creation so it had nothing to do with an immediate problem.
1 Tim 2
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I believe the point he is making is that women are not wired for such office. Speaking of emotions and some tough decisions that need to be made, the office requires a great deal of assertiveness.

1 Tim 2:9 -Paul was speaking about what is expected at gatherings. I believe these things cause distractions and as such should be discouraged when we come together.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

I believe the main point here is modesty.

If what your conscience tells you is that women should not do these things, then it should be stopped. We can't afford to cherry pick what we accept and what we won't.

You are cherry picking. Paul addressed modesty and he went above that to state that braiding and bling was a NO NO.He could have let conscience rule but he didn't

Could you please tell me whether this clear instruction is binding on you,your wife,daughter,sister and church or not.

shdemidemi:


Paul gave the reason why women should not pastor a church. He linked it all the way back to creation so it had nothing to do with an immediate problem.
1 Tim 2
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Tim 2:9 Paul was speaking about what is expected at gatherings. I believe these things cause distractions and as such should be discouraged when we come together.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

I believe the main point here is modesty.

If what your conscience tells you is that women should not do these things, then it should be stopped. We can't afford to cherry pick what we accept and what we won't.

vooks:
You are cherry picking. Paul addressed modesty and he went above that to state that braiding and bling was a NO NO.He could have let conscience rule but he didn't

Could you please tell me whether this clear instruction is binding on you,your wife,daughter,sister and church or not.

1)My family has nothing to do with the issue. I accept what the bible says completely.

2) The greek word used for braids is plegma which means ringlets and curls.

3)Like I said I will advice women not to come to church with such hairdo or ask them to cover their hair in church.

You come across as though it isn't achievable.

You are a man so the only relevance of this scripture is to women close to you, wife,sister,church members.....

What do you mean by 'advice'? Do you tell them that God has commanded or do you just appeal to their conscience?

Muslims don hijab and burkka so nothing is impossible

shdemidemi:


1)My family has nothing to do with the issue. I accept what the bible says completely.

2) The greek word used for braids is plegma which means ringlets and curls.

3)Like I said I will advice women don't come to church with such hairdo or they must cover their hair in church.

You come across as though it isn't achievable.

vooks:
You are a man so the only relevance of this scripture is to women close to you, wife,sister,church members.....

What do you mean by 'advice'? Do you tell them that God has commanded or do you just appeal to their conscience?

I didn't write it there bro. There are some unfavourable things addressed to men as well...we can only obey.

If we call ourselves christians, I don't see why we should be forced to obey His instructions. Its a different matter if you don't know, when you know you should and must obey.

I never heard nobody suggesting you wrote nothing bro
Who talked about FORCE? Do you teach this as a COMMAND from God like say adultery?

shdemidemi:

I didn't write it there bro. There are some unfavourable things addressed to men as well...we can only obey.

If we call ourselves christians, I don't see why we should be forced to obey His instructions. Its a different matter if you don't know, when you know you should and must obey.[

vooks:
I never heard nobody suggesting you wrote nothing bro
Who talked about FORCE? Do you teach this as a COMMAND from God like say adultery?

I was not responding to your direct question when I mentioned those words, I was adding those to balance my response.

There is nothing like a command like it was with the old testament, we have instructions without corollary effect. If you are a christian and you understand what it means to be one, you wouldn't need commands.

Is this a command or an 'instruction without corollary effect'?
1 Corinthians 6:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Semantics aside, is this an 'instruction without corollary effect'?
1 Timothy 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

shdemidemi:


I was not responding to your direct question when I mentioned those words, I was adding those to balance my response.

There is nothing like a command like it was with the old testament, we have instructions without corollary effect. If you are a christian and you understand what it means to be one, you wouldn't need commands.

vooks:
Is this a command or an 'instruction without corollary effect'?
1 Corinthians 6:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Semantics aside, is this an 'instruction without corollary effect'?
1 Timothy 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

what I mean is there is no such thing as 'thou shall not' and when you do you get killed or get punished. In the new testament you will find 'I beseech you' to present yourself to God. Not because you will be killed or punished but because it is your reasonable service if you are truly a christian i.e a son of your father(God).

Thank you for that lesson on what to expect in NT and what not to. Now,
Is this an 'instruction without corollary effect'? of the equal force as say adultery?

1 Timothy 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
Don't be shy. A Yes/No will do

shdemidemi:


what I mean is there is no such thing as 'thou shall not' and when you do you get killed or get punished. In the new testament you will find 'I beseech you' to present yourself to God. Not because you will be killed or punished but because it is your reasonable service if you are truly a christian i.e a son of your father(God).

vooks:
Thank you for that lesson on what to expect in NT and what not to. Now,
Is this an 'instruction without corollary effect'? of the equal force as say adultery?

1 Timothy 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
Don't be shy. A Yes/No will do

There is no effect for adultery either, that is not to say we should be licentious. Sexual immorality will disgust you as a matured christian.

If the bible demand that we dress a certain way to church, I am completely for it.

So anyone in bling and braids in church is in open rebellion against Holy Spirit?

shdemidemi:


There is no effect for adultery either, that is not to say we should be licentious. Sexual immorality will disgust you as a matured christian.

If the bible demand that we dress a certain way to church, I am completely for it.

vooks:
So anyone in bling and braids in church is in open rebellion against Holy Spirit?

Did Paul say anyone?


Like I said before, Paul was more concerned about how women are known for their charitable work in the church. They should not dress to distract others. They should be virtuous and known for their modesty. The church is not a social gathering, it is a place for sobriety, service and worship of our maker.

Is this applicable for you?

1 Cor 11:6-9 (ESV)
6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

shdemidemi:


Did Paul say anyone?


Like I said before, Paul was more concerned about how women are known for their charitable work in the church. They should not dress to distract others. They should be virtuous and known for their modesty. The church is not a social gathering, it is a place for sobriety, service and worship of our maker.