Orunto:
Prophets are made by the Heavenly Spirit of God directly by Order from Heaven. John The Baptist was the last before Prophet and Son of God Jesus. The one and only Prophet after Christ was Mohamad by the Order of Is-hmael. Every "Born Again" Christian from Simon Peter to those of us who believe in Christ through the Gospel and the Epistles of His Deciples are Apostles not Prophets. In other words, Prophets are directly responsible to God for His messages to humans. All Apostles are indirectly responsible to God through Christ Jesus. Jesus said, "And this is Eternal Life, that those You have given me(all born again) know You, the Only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent". St. John 17:3.

sorry scriptures do not recognise mohammed as a prophet.thanks

Bidam:
If you say selfish you are wrong. praying in tongues isnt selfish but building your innerman.

Bidam,cool down now. Listen to yourself carefully.

Bidam:
Paul was encouraging believers not only to pray in d spirit but to pray with understanding also .

Yes,you are absolutely right BUT why is he encouraging them to?

anukulapo:

Bidam,cool down now. Listen to yourself carefully.



Yes,you are absolutely right BUT why is he encouraging them to?

and why not? pls kindly go to my thread on reasons why believers should speak in tongues for further clarification on d subject to avoid derailing this thread further

Bidam:
... to avoid derailing this thread further

Ok. Let the thread get back on track.

Bidam:
If you say selfish you are wrong. praying in tongues isnt selfish but building your innerman.

But Bidam,sincerely,you need to cool down and listen to yourself carefully. The above does not fly.

anukulapo:


Ok. Let the thread get back on track.


But Bidam,sincerely,you need to cool down and listen to yourself carefully. The above does not fly.

like i said go through my thread you will understand what i meant

smh for ignorance

I think we need to stop making it look like there is a competition between PERSONAL EDIFICATION and EDIFICATION OF THE BODY.

Both are needed for the overall maturity of the church.

Speaking in tongues is important for personal edification. When you speak in tongues, the Holy Spirit gives you the utterance and you just do the speaking. So you're actually praying the wisdom of the Spirit with the words of the Spirit.

When you speak in tongues, your understanding is unfruitful, so there is no room for your flesh to be opinionated or for your mind to express doubts. You can't pray amiss in tongues.

And let me even add, that you can pray for someone else in tongues.

I remember one time many years back in secondary school, I was studying my bible around 8pm in the evening.

Suddenly, I just felt compassion rising in my heart out of the blue for a class-mate of mine, so strong and compelling. I didn't know what to make of the emotion, so I just got down on my knees and spoke in tongues for like 30minutes, I was almost crying. Then when I had peace in my spirit, I continued with my study.

The next day at school, I asked that my friend what was going on with him last evening around 8pm to 8:30pm.

He told me they had no food at home and not money to buy food. They had a poultry business that had packed up, all that was left was a crate of eggs.

He said he went around knocking on doors around 8pm, looking for someone that would buy eggs.

He told me after knocking on few doors, he found a man that showed great concern. He not only bought the crate, but he paid way way above the cost of a crate; and he also promised to help with their poultry business.

He was curious to know why I asked. I told him how I was praying in tongues with strong emotion for him around that same time.

That conversation nearly brought tears to both our eyes. It made me never to joke with such nudges from the Spirit about someone again.

About prophecy, I ♥ the way Pastor Chris puts it. He says prophecy is interpreted tongues. And tongues is prophesying without interpetation.

Tongues is speaking by the inspiration of the Spirit in words you don't understand, while prophecy is speaking by the inspiration of the Spirit in words you and others around you can understand.

But primarily, tongues is for personal edification, and its not in competition with prophecy.

ayoku777:
I think we need to stop making it look like there is a competition between PERSONAL EDIFICATION and EDIFICATION OF THE BODY.

Both are needed for the overall maturity of the church.

Speaking in tongues is important for personal edification. When you speak in tongues, the Holy Spirit gives you the utterance and you just do the speaking. So you're actually praying the wisdom of the Spirit with the words of the Spirit.

When you speak in tongues, your understanding is unfruitful, so there is no room for your flesh to be opinionated or for your mind to express doubts. You can't pray amiss in tongues.

And let me even add, that you can pray for someone else in tongues.

I remember one time many years back in secondary school, I was studying my bible around 8pm in the evening.

Suddenly, I just felt compassion rising in my heart out of the blue for a class-mate of mine, so strong and compelling. I didn't know what to make of the emotion, so I just got down on my knees and spoke in tongues for like 30minutes, I was almost crying. Then when I had peace in my spirit, I continued with my study.

The next day at school, I asked that my friend what was going on with him last evening around 8pm to 8:30pm.

He told me they had no food at home and not money to buy food. They had a poultry business that had packed up, all that was left was a crate of eggs.

He said he went around knocking on doors around 8pm, looking for someone that would buy eggs.

He told me after knocking on few doors, he found a man that showed great concern. He not only bought the crate, but he paid way way above the cost of a crate; and he also promised to help with their poultry business.

He was curious to know why I asked. I told him how I was praying in tongues with strong emotion for him around that same time.

That conversation brought tears to both our eyes. It made me never to joke with such nudges from the Spirit about someone again.

About prophecy, I ♥ the way Pastor Chris puts it. He says prophecy is interpreted tongues. And tongues is prophesying without interpetation.

Tongues is speaking by the inspiration of the Spirit in words you don't understand, while prophecy is speaking by the inspiration of the Spirit in words you and others around you can understand.

But primarily, tongues is for personal edification, and its not in competition with prophecy.

Bless you for putting it succintly, i have had nudges like this to pray in tongues at home, work, school and other places, i just flow quietly so i won't disturb folks around me, when the burden is much on me, i look for a quiet place and pour my heart to God. It is never a SELFISH prayer because i do not know what i am praying for but sometimes God gives me scriptures that wells up in my heart during utterance and i give voice to it. Now how do you explain these things to religious mindset who neither believe in tongues nor the gifts of the Spirit. cessationists hide their impotency under the guise that the gifts of the Holy Spirit was only manifested during the era of the apostles. I am not at the mercy of folks with vain arguments who are held locked up in traditions. You will agree with me that the most difficult thing to break is long entrenched traditions of men.

ayoku777:
I think we need to stop making it look like there is a competition between PERSONAL EDIFICATION and EDIFICATION OF THE BODY.

Both are needed for the overall maturity of the church.

Speaking in tongues is important for personal edification. When you speak in tongues, the Holy Spirit gives you the utterance and you just do the speaking. So you're actually praying the wisdom of the Spirit with the words of the Spirit.

When you speak in tongues, your understanding is unfruitful, so there is no room for your flesh to be opinionated or for your mind to express doubts. You can't pray amiss in tongues.

And let me even add, that you can pray for someone else in tongues.

We must be very careful with the extra biblical applications. There is no passage in scripture that support these common though erroneous summations.

ayoku777:

I remember one time many years back in secondary school, I was studying my bible around 8pm in the evening.

Suddenly, I just felt compassion rising in my heart out of the blue for a class-mate of mine, so strong and compelling. I didn't know what to make of the emotion, so I just got down on my knees and spoke in tongues for like 30minutes, I was almost crying. Then when I had peace in my spirit, I continued with my study.

The next day at school, I asked that my friend what was going on with him last evening around 8pm to 8:30pm.

He told me they had no food at home and not money to buy food. They had a poultry business that had packed up, all that was left was a crate of eggs.

He said he went around knocking on doors around 8pm, looking for someone that would buy eggs.

He told me after knocking on few doors, he found a man that showed great concern. He not only bought the crate, but he paid way way above the cost of a crate; and he also promised to help with their poultry business.

He was curious to know why I asked. I told him how I was praying in tongues with strong emotion for him around that same time.

That conversation nearly brought tears to both our eyes. It made me never to joke with such nudges from the Spirit about someone again.

My brother, we must be very careful with these things we say. There is no basis whatsoever to link your prayer to what happened to your friend. Even if you had not prayed, who is to say God would not do what He will do. It is a dangerous thing to ever link whatever happen around us to what we have done or not do.

What happens if you pray and it does not happen the way you desire, what then would you say? Most people keep it hush but when it happens in our favour we are quick to come out to say it is linked to our prayer, fasting, church attendance, noble attitude etc.

ayoku777:

About prophecy, I ♥ the way Pastor Chris puts it. He says prophecy is interpreted tongues. And tongues is prophesying without interpetation.

Tongues is speaking by the inspiration of the Spirit in words you don't understand, while prophecy is speaking by the inspiration of the Spirit in words you and others around you can understand.

But primarily, tongues is for personal edification, and its not in competition with prophecy.

Tongues or praying all together never edify anyone. Pray in tongues from now till tomorrow if you don't understand scriptures you remain spiritually impoverished and impotent.

If you need edification God's way, it is in studying God's word with a corresponding readiness within us to apply what we learn.

Paul was preaching love and charity for all within the body and not a self edification exercise or technique.

Bidam my broda and my 'enemy'

Mark 7:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

There is nothing wrong with traditions. From a sociological/psychological perspective, animals develop habits to cope with the uncertainties in this world. Bidam wakes up at around the same time, follows a routine that is repeated until it becomes a habit. We hate spontaneity. Habits soon become traditions we pass on to our kids/descendants.

What concerned our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is giving traditions the FORCE of Commandments or Laws. This is exactly what the pharisees did so much that they had beef with those who flouted the traditions and worked so hard to keep them at the expense of the Law.

When you tell us that 'self-edification' is carnal but 'public edification' is spiritual and you can't back that up with scriptures yet you believe it with all your heart, you are a prisoner of man-made doctrines and traditions that void the Word of God and make it of none effect.

It is sad that people who know not the scriptures nor the power of God speak evil of these things

Mark 12:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Bidam:
Bless you for putting it succintly, i have had nudges like this to pray in tongues at home, work, school and other places, i just flow quietly so i won't disturb folks around me, when the burden is much on me, i look for a quiet place and pour my heart to God. It is never a SELFISH prayer because i do not know what i am praying for but sometimes God gives me scriptures that wells up in my heart during utterance and i give voice to it. Now how do you explain these things to religious mindset who neither believe in tongues nor the gifts of the Spirit. cessationists hide their impotency under the guise that the gifts of the Holy Spirit was only manifested during the era of the apostles. I am not at the mercy of folks with vain arguments who are held locked up in traditions. You will agree with me that the most difficult thing to break is long entrenched traditions of men.

1 Corinthians 14:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

The Holy Scriptures teach us one of the means of edification; praying in tongues. We apply that and are edified. Tongues is a gift, nothing to brag about. Just go to God and pray for this gift my broda

cc
Bidam
mbaemeka

shdemidemi:


Tongues or praying all together never edify anyone. Pray in tongues from now till tomorrow if you don't understand scriptures you remain spiritually impoverished and impotent.

If you need edification God's way, it is in studying God's word with a corresponding readiness within us to apply what we learn.

Paul was preaching love and charity for all within the body and not a self edification exercise or technique.

Bidam:
Bless you for putting it succintly, i have had nudges like this to pray in tongues at home, work, school and other places, i just flow quietly so i won't disturb folks around me, when the burden is much on me, i look for a quiet place and pour my heart to God. It is never a SELFISH prayer because i do not know what i am praying for but sometimes God gives me scriptures that wells up in my heart during utterance and i give voice to it. Now how do you explain these things to religious mindset who neither believe in tongues nor the gifts of the Spirit. cessationists hide their impotency under the guise that the gifts of the Holy Spirit was only manifested during the era of the apostles. I am not at the mercy of folks with vain arguments who are held locked up in traditions. You will agree with me that the most difficult thing to break is long entrenched traditions of men.

How we love a move of the Spirit as it was experienced at Pentecost, How we love to experience a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind. Our desire yearn so much for cloven tongues like as of fire; we will love the attention of dying people scuffle to catch up with our shadow so they can be healed. How we so love to replay Pentecost all over again- speak languages in the honour of God even when we have not studied the language. Wow, what a sight that would be to behold.

Well, since these things won't happen some will wishfully think they happen but they are scarce. Why the scarcity? Why are there thousands and millions who fake it while the rest who seem to have the power will rather sit behind their computers and avoid to get their hands dirty?

vooks:
1 Corinthians 14:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

The Holy Scriptures teach us one of the means of edification; praying in tongues. We apply that and are edified. Tongues is a gift, nothing to brag about. Just go to God and pray for this gift my broda

cc
Bidam
mbaemeka

Which one did Paul tell them to strive for- self edification or edification of Christ(body)?

Drop the drama. How many instances did you see tongues of fire? What about rushing wind? And nlMediator aksd you a simple question, how comes the apostles never raised James from the dead?

Scarce means what, they are still there but in limited measure or TOTALLY nonexistent

shdemidemi:


How we love a move of the Spirit as it was experienced at Pentecost, How we love to experience a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind. Our desire yearn so much for cloven tongues like as of fire; we will love the attention of dying people scuffle to catch up with our shadow so they can be healed. How we so love to replay Pentecost all over again- speak languages in the honour of God even when we have not studied the language. Wow, what a sight that would be to behold.

Well, since these things won't happen some will wishfully think they happen but they are scarce. Why the scarcity? Why are there thousands and millions who fake it while the rest who seem to have the power will rather sit behind their computers and avoid to get their hand dirty?

Paul NEVER told them to strive for either. He sought for order and sobriety.
Personal edification in a public gathering is at the expense of the rest and may be misunderstood just like on Pentecost. So it is BEST to keep it private UNLESS interpretation is availed so all are edified. The difference between private and public edification is UNDERSTANDING

1 Corinthians 14:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, EXCEPT he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Do you want to revise your statement in the light of 1 Corinthians 14:4? Between Shdemidemi and Holy Spirit, who should we follow?

Tongues or praying all together never edify anyone

shdemidemi:


Which one did Paul tell them to strive for- self edification or edification of Christ(body)?

vooks:
Paul NEVER told them to strive for either. He sought for order and sobriety.
Private edification in a public gathering is at the expense of the rest and may be misunderstood just like on Pentecost

Do you want to revise your statement in the light of 1 Corinthians 14:4? Between Shdemidemi and Holy Spirit, who should we follow?

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues [size=32pt]but rather[/size] that ye prophesied: for greater(lesser is the one that spoke in tongues) is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

EXCEPT is a powerful word
Prophecy and Tongues (interpreted) are EQUALS

The 'greatness' of one prophesying ceases the moment the one speaking in tongues interprets them or some other person

shdemidemi:

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater(lesser is the one that spoke in tongues) is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, [size=32pt]except[/size] he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

shdemidemi:


We must be very careful with the extra biblical applications. There is no passage in scripture that support these common though erroneous summations.




My brother, we must be very careful with these things we say. There is no basis whatsoever to link your prayer to what happened to your friend. Even if you had not prayed, who is to say God would not do what He will do. It is a dangerous thing to ever link whatever happen around us to what we have done or not do.

What happens if you pray and it does not happen the way you desire, what then would you say? Most people keep it hush but when it happens in our favour we are quick to come out to say it is linked to our prayer, fasting, church attendance, noble attitude etc.



Tongues or praying all together never edify anyone. Pray in tongues from now till tomorrow if you don't understand scriptures you remain spiritually impoverished and impotent.

If you need edification God's way, it is in studying God's word with a corresponding readiness within us to apply what we learn.

Paul was preaching love and charity for all within the body and not a self edification exercise or technique.

Acts 2v4 -And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE.

So when you're speaking in tongues in words that the Spirit is supplying, whose wisdom are you articulating?

Can you speak in tongues in your own words? Or your own wisdom?

And what do you mean that our prayers or faith have nothing to do with what God does?

John 16v23 -And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, He will give it you.

John 14v14 -IF YE SHALL ASK anything in my name, I will do it

How many instances in scripture did Jesus say, "Thy faith hath made thee whole" ?

Matthew 9v22, Matthew 15v28, Mark 5v34, Mark 10v52, Like 7v50, Luke 17v19, Luke 18v42.

He didn't say my power, or my will hath made thee whole but thy faith.

There was even a place where scriptures say Jesus COULD do no mighty works because of the people's unbelief. (Mark 6v5-6)

Now how do you mean tongues edifies no one? Who is saying something that is not in the scriptures now?

1Cor 14v4 -He that speaketh in an unknown tongue EDIFIETH himself

The same Paul that spoke of love and charity also said in 1Cor 14v18 -I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all.

No one is saying the scripture is not a tool of edification, but to say that is the ONLY tool of edification is as wrong as it comes. Or show us in scripture where the scripture is describes as the ONLY tool of edification.

vooks:
Drop the drama.How many instances did you see tongues of fire?

You are answering my question, how I wish you would think robustly about your questions. It happened once and never like that again. Some things stopped and Pentecost was once. You and your likes will almost have us believe you exclusively experience pentecost in your rooms.

vooks:
What about rushing wind? And nlMediator aksd you a simple question, how comes the apostles never raised James from the dead?

Scarce means what, they are still there but in limited measure or TOTALLY nonexistent

If you were following and reading other people's post objectively enough, you will realise my point was that they did not have the power to do so. Pentecost was gone, it was never permanent. God only delegated temporal powers to mankind (Apostles) and this was certainly not a power to replace Himself. Rather, It was a power to authenticate the message the apostles were commissioned to herald.

vooks:
EXCEPT is a powerful word
Prophecy and Tongues (interpreted) are EQUALS

The 'greatness' of one prophesying ceases the moment the one speaking in tongues interprets them or some other person

Save your nuances bro. Read in context to understand what the man was conveying to these people.

'RATHER' is equally strong and I dont see where they interpret tongues in pentecostal gathering today. How can they, when what they say can't be put to words- Its gibberish.

I find it decidedly ironical that you call upon me to THINK
Pentecost lasted one day, the Day of Pentecost. On that day, there was a mighty rushing wind, tongues of fires and baptism of the Holy Spirit.
On one other ocassion we have rushing wind and NO tongues. On the remaining two occasions, we have no rushing wind nor tongues of fire ,but we have Baptism of the Holy Spirit. In all these four occasions, the baptism is followed by speaking in tongues

This tells me baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues is the common denominator.

Now, James was killed and never raised back from the dead but LONG AFTER this, we have Eutychus and Tabitha raised from the dead! So much for your diminishing theory

shdemidemi:


You are answering my question, how I wish you would think robustly about your questions. It happened once and never like that again. Some things stopped and Pentecost was once. You and your likes will almost have us believe you exclusively experience pentecost in your rooms.



If you were following and reading other people's post objectively enough, you will realise my point was that they did not have the power to do so. Pentecost was gone, it was never permanent. God only delegated temporal powers to mankind (Apostles) and this was certainly not a power to replace Himself. Rather, It was a power to authenticate the message the apostles were commissioned to herald.

ayoku777:


Acts 2v4 -And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE.

So when you're speaking in tongues in words that the Spirit is supplying, whose wisdom are you articulating?

Bro, we were told what they were saying. They were not speaking to spirits but to people present.

Acts 2:9
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

ayoku777:
Can you speak in tongues in your own words? Or your own wisdom?

It depends on what you call tongues. the disciples spoke understandable words and it was about all they had seen and all they know about Jesus and who/what He represented.

ayoku777:
And what do you mean that our prayers or faith have nothing to do with what God does?

John 16v23 -And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, He will give it you.

John 14v14 -IF YE SHALL ASK anything in my name, I will do it

John 14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, [size=35pt]that the Father may be glorified[/size] in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.


We must not take things out of context like I keep saying. The main thing here is the GLORY OF GOD. If what you are asking will not bring glory to God He won't do it. God remains sovereign.

If i tell my son he can ask me anything and he turns around to say daddy I will like to drive your car to school. The answer will be No. I won't allow a kid do that, so when I say ask anything there are things you will ask that are beyond the skirts of 'anything'.



Need to run, will respond to the rest in a bit.

We have been called to destroy arguments that's what I learnt from the Strange Fire Conference. Stop hiding behind some esoterical 'context', this verse says EXACTLY what it says. Even heathens would understand it's plain reading without shdemidemi 'context' theories. You may want to explain the highlighted to us mere mortals in your own words or from ANY version or paraphrase and in ANY language

1 Corinthians 14:5 (KJV)
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Nobody interpreted tongues on Pentecost nor in any of the other three instances we have recorded of tongues. If Pentecostal churches you frequent don't interpret tongues, that's their experience. We don't use 2014 experience to water down what Holy Spirit inspired Paul to record. Any language you don't understand is gibberish. I don't understand your pidgin nor Yoruba. So if I visited your church and you rehashed your unknown tongue versus speaking in tongues theories in Yoruba,you'd be talking gibberish to me

Same case if you were praying. I can't say Amen to your prayers. Now, if I prayed in tongues and that tongue happened to be Yoruba, you would understand what am saying. But if I prayed in tongues in Yoruba in Budapest, I'd be praying gibberish

shdemidemi:


Save your nuances bro. Read in context to understand what the man was conveying to these people.

'RATHER' is equally strong and I dont see where they interpret tongues in pentecostal gathering today. How can they, when what they say can't be put to words- Its gibberish.

shdemidemi:

Tongues or praying all together never edify anyone.

How can somebody who pretends to have a modicum of reverence for the scriptures state this?

ayoku777:

Now how do you mean tongues edifies no one? Who is saying something that is not in the scriptures now?

1Cor 14v4 -He that speaketh in an unknown tongue EDIFIETH himself

The same Paul that spoke of love and charity also said in 1Cor 14v18 -I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all.

No one is saying the scripture is not a tool of edification, but to say that is the ONLY tool of edification is as wrong as it comes. Or show us in scripture where the scripture is describes as the ONLY tool of edification.

shdemidemi:


Bro, we were told what they were saying. They were not speaking to spirits but to people present.

Acts 2:9
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.



It depends on what you call tongues. the disciples spoke understandable words and it was about all they had seen and all they know about Jesus and who/what He represented.


John 14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, [size=35pt]that the Father may be glorified[/size] in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.


We must not take things out of context like I keep saying. The main thing here is the GLORY OF GOD. If what you are asking will not bring glory to God He won't do it. God remains sovereign.

If i tell my son he can ask me anything and he turns around to say daddy I will like to drive your car to school. The answer will be No. I won't allow a kid do that, so when I say ask anything there are things you will ask that are beyond the skirts of 'anything'.



Need to run, will respond to the rest in a bit.

Don't establish doctrine with one verse or passage.

Paul talked about another tongues in 1Cor 14v2 that is spoken only to God and NO MAN understands him

1Cor 14v2 -For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This tongues is for personal edification, its directed to God, and doesn't require interpretaion to be effective.

And also there are instances where God granted the desires of His people contrary to His will.

Numbers 14v28-29 -Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do unto you:

Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness.

God also granted their wish when they requested for a King.

1Samuel 8v7,9 -And the Lord said unto Samuel, hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me that I should not reign over them.

Now therefore hearken unto their voice.

Jesus also said in Matthew 26v53 -

Thinkest thou not that I cannot now pray to my Father, and He shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that it must thus be?

So if Christ had prayed to be rescued, the Father would have done just that, even though it would have be contrary to scripture and the will of the Father.

We need to mature until our prayers align with His purpose, but to say our prayers make no different has no basis in scripture.

God's purpose is not done in our lives whether or not we pray.

God is sovereign but He doesn't always super-impose His sovereignty on us.

If He does that, then everyone will be born again, and every born again person will be Christ-like and mature. Since that is His will.

But that is not the case because we have a part to play in causing His will to be done in our personal lives. And prayer is one of the ways we do that.

vooks:
Bidam my broda and my 'enemy'

Mark 7:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

There is nothing wrong with traditions. From a sociological/psychological perspective, animals develop habits to cope with the uncertainties in this world. Bidam wakes up at around the same time, follows a routine that is repeated until it becomes a habit. We hate spontaneity. Habits soon become traditions we pass on to our kids/descendants.

What concerned our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is giving traditions the FORCE of Commandments or Laws. This is exactly what the pharisees did so much that they had beef with those who flouted the traditions and worked so hard to keep them at the expense of the Law.

When you tell us that 'self-edification' is carnal but 'public edification' is spiritual and you can't back that up with scriptures yet you believe it with all your heart, you are a prisoner of man-made doctrines and traditions that void the Word of God and make it of none effect.

It is sad that people who know not the scriptures nor the power of God speak evil of these things

Mark 12:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Lol,shdemidemi is zealous for the traditions of those who do not believe in tongues. I wonder how he interprets clear statements from scriptures. In his mind he feels he is sincere, but it is a pity that he is sincerely wrong. When someone promotes his own understanding of scripture as the truth and makes it a constant for a long time and this so called truth is in direct opposition to the will of God it becomes a tradition.

shdemidemi:


How we love a move of the Spirit as it was experienced at Pentecost, How we love to experience a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind. Our desire yearn so much for cloven tongues like as of fire; we will love the attention of dying people scuffle to catch up with our shadow so they can be healed. How we so love to replay Pentecost all over again- speak languages in the honour of God even when we have not studied the language. Wow, what a sight that would be to behold.

Well, since these things won't happen some will wishfully think they happen but they are scarce. Why the scarcity? Why are there thousands and millions who fake it while the rest who seem to have the power will rather sit behind their computers and avoid to get their hands dirty?

There are so many instances from scriptures that believers were filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues without the moon turning blood red. And the gentiles were not even present during the feast at pentecost yet they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. We come to God by Faith not by "feelings" or spooky things. If that is the way you view your christianity then it is a pity. Pentecost has long gone in Acts 10:45-46 and the jews heard gentiles spoke in tongues and magnify God, there was no rushing mighty wind there. Are you making it a formula? Your doubt is as much worse than Thomas.

The ephesian disciples didn't see any cloven tongues, yet they spoke in tongues and prophesied when Paul laid his hands on them in Acts 19:6..this wasn't even at pentecost..Your ignorance concerning scriptures is so high i cannot imagine how you could stand and teach folks that the Holy Ghost has left the church now.

Romans 10:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

The zeal is certainly commendable but is it according to knowledge?

Bidam:
Lol,shdemidemi is zealous for the traditions of those who do not believe in tongues. I wonder how he interprets clear statements from scriptures. In his mind he feels he is sincere, but it is a pity that he is sincerely wrong. When someone promotes his own understanding of scripture as the truth and makes it a constant for a long time and this so called truth is in direct opposition to the will of God it becomes a tradition.

ayoku777:


Matthew 9v22, Matthew 15v28, Mark 5v34, Mark 10v52, Like 7v50, Luke 17v19, Luke 18v42.

He didn't say my power, or my will hath made thee whole but thy faith.

Notice how no one else save Jesus ever asked anyone for their faith before they wrought miracles. This term 'faith' is one of the words that we have abused as a people. If any church were to be stripped of miracles on the basis of the level of their faith, it will be the Corinthian church before any other. But as carnal as this church were, God did not withdraw spiritual privileges due to their spiritual weakness. He sees them just as he sees the Thessalonican church.
1 cor 1
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

So when Jesus talked on a level of faith, He was referring to their trust in the object of that faith. Every one has faith but the difference is the object of our faith- is the object of my faith my mind/conscience or complete trust in Jesus/God.

ayoku777:
The same Paul that spoke of love and charity also said in 1Cor 14v18 -I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all.

This is where the disparity comes in.. tongues and other tongue. What Paul spoke was tongues and not gibberish as adopted by the corinth church. Paul needed to speak in many languages to herald the message of the gospel and I must say he was well equipped to speak different languages by the Spirit.

ayoku777:

No one is saying the scripture is not a tool of edification, but to say that is the ONLY tool of edification is as wrong as it comes. Or show us in scripture where the scripture is describes as the ONLY tool of edification.

Jesus says 'He is the way the truth and the life', He proclaimed Himself as the only way to the father. The gospel message is Christ and it is the only way we can become spiritually built (edified). Not by tongues, prayers fasting or some other out of body experiences.

ayoku777:

There was even a place where scriptures say Jesus COULD do no mighty works because of the people's unbelief. (Mark 6v5-6)

Why do you make it seem like their unbelief made the power of Christ impotent. If He an raise the dead who has no ability to talk or exercise any form of faith what makes you think He can't work miracles anywhere.
This is what the passage say -
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

He healed people there! So we can't say he couldn't wrought miracles but He left the unbelievers to their vices.

ayoku777:

Now how do you mean tongues edifies no one? Who is saying something that is not in the scriptures now?

1Cor 14v4 -He that speaketh in an unknown tongue EDIFIETH himsel.

If you understand the gradual or subtle way Paul was bringing these people from where they were to where are suppose to be you will understand the disparaging use of his language in these verses.

Paul made similar assertions in Romans 14 where he spoke about the spiritually weak and the spiritually strong believers. He instructed the strong not to despise the weak just because the weak feels God does not permit him to eat meat. Eating isn't bad but Paul says for the sake of the weak who does not understand these things, the strong should stay away from meat especially around the weak.

Paul has his ways of not going all rough on the weak and the book of Corinthians was a perfect example of where he displayed this quality. He spoke to them tenderly, as weak christians who need to be nurtured carefully to avoid offence and rancour.
1 cor 3
3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

vooks:

Romans 10:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

The zeal is certainly commendable but is it according to knowledge?

Lol, truly if he knows the truth, it shall set him free.

So what is Paul saying here?

1 Corinthians 14:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Christians did not invent tongues or other gifts of the Spirit, it was and it remains part and parcel of the gospel, a gift to everyone who believes first prophesied by Joel and confirmed from Pentecost

shdemidemi:

Jesus says 'He is the way the truth and the life', He proclaimed Himself as the only way to the father. The gospel message is Christ and it is the only way we can become spiritually built (edified). Not by tongues, prayers fasting or some other out of body experiences.