CAPTIVATOR:


MODALISM Preacher ..... Are u saying Jesus is his own Father ? Even trinitarians believe that the Father is a person distinct from the Son.

Eternal father is a title given to the child when he was born because he " became responsible for eternal salvation to all those obeying him" Heb 5:9

On the Trinity

'God made this universe by His word,reason and power. Your philosophers also agree that the maker of the universe seems to be Logos that is, word and reason...(for example,Zeno and Cleanthes).. We also claim that the word,reason and virtue, by which we have said that God made all things, have spirit as their substance...
This word, we have learnt was produced from God, and was generated by being produced, and therefore is called the Son of God, and God, from unity of substance with God. For God too is Spirit.
When a ray is projected from the sun it is a portion of the whole sun; but the sun will be in the ray because it is a ray of the sun; the substance is not seperated but extended. So from spirit comes spirit, and God from God, as light is kindled from light...
This ray of God glided down into a virgin, in her womb was fashioned as flesh, is born as man mixed with God. the flesh was built up by the Spirit, was nourished, grew up, spoke, taught, worked, and was Christ.''

Emusan:


Are you saying Jesus is not God and the creator?
The bone of the contention is that Jesus is not part of creation which is what John 1:3 trying to explain.

I am saying Jesus is a Mighty God who has his own personal God- Almighty God whom he answers to.
(Revelation 1:6)

Emusan:


As for Revelation 3:14, the word rendered "THE BEGINNING" was translated from the Greek word "ARCHE" that also means source/origin/principality/rule e.t.c so taking it out of context is baseless. Please the Father called Himself THE BEGINNING(arche)...does it mean the father has a beginning too? If we substitute THE BEGINNING with either ORIGIN or SOURCE then you will understand the content of that verse.

Try replacing the word beginning from Genesis 1:1 and see its mean changed. Eg "In the origin/source God created the heavens and the earth".

Translators saw the words origin/ source and still choose beginning. There is a reason for that.

The Father is the beginning of WHAT? Jesus is "the beginning of God's creation" is not just a phrase, Revelation 3:14 mentions Jesus' titles. Can we apply this title to the Father?

Emusan:


As for colo 1:15 Paul didn't mean Jesus was the FIRSTCREATED but what he means by FIRSTBORN is pre-eminence/supremacy which he stresses out in verse 18 "...that in all things he might have the preeminence."
The key question one can ask here is, if Jesus was created FIRST why must He have THE PREEMINENCE once He is already in the position of pre-eminence?

So Firstborn does not have it regular meaning because it was used on Jesus eh?

Pre-eminence (Abj): better than all others, outstanding. Is Jesus better than the Father? 1 corithians 15:27 exempted the Father from all that.

Emusan:


NO! What that verse is making clear is that Jesus never be part of creation, He's the one who started creation.
You miss apply that John 5:26, if you read it carefully you will know that the life the Father granted The Son was His Humanity LIFE "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. because JESUS HIMSELF IS EVERLASTING LIFE, how can EVERLASTING LIFE BE CREATED?

The bible never specify which whether it was human life or heavenly life that was GRANTED to JESUS, so it goes to show that it was both- since it compares Jehovah's and Jesus life ( one is self existent while the other was GRANTED)

Does the word granted mean another thing?

Emusan:


You're very funny, when you erroneously said THE Lord in Isaiah 40:3 is not YAHWEH but just ordinary Lord like Jesus or any human Lord
Come with another lie.

Please quote me where I said the above. To set matter straight, Isaiah mentions Jehovah, and Jesus came in his Father's name.

Emusan:


If Jesus came in THE NAME OF THE FATHER (YAHWEH) so if I call Him YAHWEH did I make a mistake?
Can you address a president representative his/her name and not your excellency Mr. President?

Is the representative equal in rank to the president or can he be the same as the president? Coming in the president name does not mean when he goes back to the president he still has that same authority, does it?

Emusan:


Another lie, NONE has seen God in TOTALITY OF HIS GLORY not that people have not seen God, the purpose of John 1:18 is "...the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John the Baptist didn't mean seen God any how BUT FULLY KNOW and DECLEAR HIM TO PEOPLE except JESUS who is also God.

Now the bold section is your opinion, I don't think that is the point of God being called "invisible" or is there another meaning of that word?

John 1:18 "No one has EVER seen God..."

John 5:37 "...His voice you have not heard, his form you have NEVER Seen"

John 6:46 "Not that any man has seen the Father except him who is from Him"

Why is that because, no human has ascended to the Heaven

1 timothy 1:17 " To the king of ages, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE, the ONLY GOD,...."

Compare Hebrew 11:27 "...who is invisible"

Can one see an invisible thing?

Emusan:


Jesus is not The Father, BUT YAHWEH in FLESH the name YAHWEH is hold all over the GODHEAD.

Psalm 83:18 says otherwise "Let them Know that you ALONE whose name is Jehovah is the Most high over all the earth"- Jesus/Yehoshua is a derivative of Yahweh/Jehovah not the other way around.

If Jesus is Yahweh in the Flesh, does that not imply that they are THE SAME?

Emusan:


The EVERLASTING LIFE, The WORD became FLESH which is called incarnation, so in His humanity He has a God because He has already surrendered everything to His Father "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Phili 2:7 so the Father became His God that's why Jesus need to be exalted again.
Mind Jesus didn't come to Earth as God.

It was a Resurrected Jesus who has all the authority given back to him that said he is "Going to his God" @ John 20:17

After stephen saw Jesus in Heaven, Jesus later said the words recorded @ Revelation 3:2,12. So human Jesus did not have the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in him, is that it? He dropped his God title and reclaim it when? When did Jesus become a God back again?

Emusan:


Do you also realise that The Father is also MIGHTY GOD?

Ahmed is a General, Abacha is a General and Head of State. Are they equal in rank? Jesus is a Mighty God, Jehovah is both a Mighty and Almighty God.

Emusan:


Then why are you asking who are the fellow of Jesus Christ?

I asked because of the implication that if Jesus have fellows who are not Jehovah nor Holy Spirit- it says a lot about what kind of God he is?

Emusan:


And you will be claiming that you always answer my question, you asked question "WHO ARE JESUS FELLOWS" and I gave you assignment you come back with more question when you haven't answered your own question.

See the bold section, You replied my question by giving me an assignment. How can I answer a question I asked which is not a rhetorical question?

Emusan:


you also avoid this question my question totally, you said and I quote "Jesus did NOT create the literal Heavens (abode of The Father)," and I asked "Then did this abode of the Father come before Jesus or Jesus comes before this abode?

Again who are Jesus' fellow according to you?

A mystery, since the bible is silence on this issue, I don't wish to say what I am not sure of.

As per Jesus Fellows- it is not important to the topic, so we can drop it.

Emusan:


Then who say The Father and The Son are the same thing?

My apologise, I thought the purpose of you quoting Isaiah 40:3 was to link Jehovah who was mentioned there has the one who came in the FLESH as Jesus christ. Am I wrong?

Emusan:


I strike "the same" because no TRINITARIAN ever say so, The Son became heir of all things because all things were created for Him.

Please don't define the word HEIR a different way. You said Jesus created everything, how can he be a HEIR to inherit everything again if everything belongs to him.

Emusan:


And you call this a question
Imaging you're co-heir with Christ or son of God or Child of God, who make you or allow you to be co-heir/son of God/child of God?
Do you even know the purpose of Christ on Earth?

Yes, it is a question. Why would humans be called Heirs to God and fellow/co-heirs with Christ? If Jesus were Almighty God, humans would have been only his heirs.
I can't stop laughing whenever people like you make such statement.
No Christian will ever deny that Jesus was on earth pointing people to know God.
[/b] Jesus never said He is God [/b] they say He blasphemy what if He now says I am God what would they do?
[/quote]

@the bold section, Jesus never said he is God, so Why would you say
he is Almighty God? Jesus never claimed to be Almighty God. He was sent by a superior God.

Emusan:


The problem people like you is having is that, you don't know that Jesus didn't come to earth to prove to people that He is God RATHER to let people know that the same God who has been spoken to them right from the day of their fathers has sent Him.

Finally we are in agreement, The God who sent Jesus is also Jesus' God.

Emusan:


Don't get it twisted when I said GOD because not until advent of Jesus that people fully know that the Father has a UNIQUE Son which is also God.

I believe you mean A MIGHTY God.

CAPTIVATOR:

LISTEN
Its good you recognize the fact that the Father was never created !! What about Jesus his son ??

How can God be created?

Col 1:15 Jesus is " the FIRST - BORN of ALL CREATION" !!! This clearly reveal that OF ALL CREATION THAT CAME INTO EXISTENCE, [size=14pt]JESUS IS THE FIRST TO BE BORN INTO EXISTENCE.![/size]

Actually, I've addressed this point but for the purpose of the bolded part I'll ask you this question.

Explain how Jesus was BORN INTO EXISTENCE without YOU CHANGING the word FIRSTBORN into FIRSTCREATED?
Beside FIRSTBORN and FIRSTCREATED do they mean the same thin?

.. The trinity lie says " pre eminence over" ! This never appeared in that scripture!

I can see you lack basic English the verse says "...so that he might become the one who is first in all things;" NWT If Jesus is first IN all things is there anything above Him again and what is the mean of OVER? Remember I didn't include the Father in all things before you misquote me.

Another lie is " firstborn over all creation" NO! " FIRST-BORN OF CREATION".

Answer my first question above for this question.

Col 1:18 Jesus is the FIRSTBORN from the dead" !! [size=14pt]He was part of d dead, but first to be raised,[/size]

Many people died before Jesus and resurrect before Him, so why will Apostle Paul said Jesus is the FIRSTBORN among the dead if the word FIRSTBORN here doesn't mean pre-eminence/supremacy?

its a big LIE to say " firstborn over the dead" or "pre eminen

Are you telling me that Jesus is not SUPREME over the dead?
I guess you don't even know the meaning of pre-eminence, do you?


NOTE: Don't jump up and down by quoting many Bible references in other to make this point overstress, what we are discussing now is FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION stick to it.

[size=14pt]Before I reply your post I want you to openly apologize for this lie if not I won't reply your post.[/size]

RikoduoSennin:

Please quote me where I said the above; (and the above you're referring to is)

Emusan: "You're very funny, when you erroneously said THE Lord in Isaiah 40:3 is not YAHWEH but just ordinary Lord like Jesus or any human Lord."

To set matter straight, Isaiah mentions Jehovah, and Jesus came in his Father's name.

Your point that I replied to was

RikoduoSennin: "No where the Father sent Himself in the scripture

then I replied

Emusan: [size=14pt]When you failed to read your Bible,[/size] "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, [size=14pt]prepare ye the way of the LORD(Yahweh), make straight in the desert a highway for our God(Yahweh)." NWT[/size] Who fulfilled this prophecy? John the Baptist & Jesus! Did God send Himself?

AND YOUR REPLY TO MY POST WAS

RikoduoSennin: [size=14pt]The "Lord" in that account is not Yahweh. Its not everywhere in the bible we have Lord/God to mean Yahweh.[/size] You can't superimpose that into the original text ( See what KJV did by removing God's true name from the bible because of superstition? Some can't identify where refer to God and where refer to Jesus eg My Lord said to My Lord). Jesus bears the title Lord does not make him Yahweh, Abraham was called Lord too.

NOTICE my first statement WHEN YOU FAILED TO READ YOUR BIBLE

Do you agree that you're lying?

Other messianic verses of the bible where Jesus is shown to also be Yahovah (YHWH)

Zachariah 12v10 -And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications: and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced....

Now who is the "I" and the "ME whom they have pierced" that was talking here?

Back up to verse 4;

Zechariah 12v4 -In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astnonishment, and his rider with madness:....

So the "pierced one" whom the house of David will look to is Yahovah.

And we all know Jesus is the "pierced one" not the Father. So Jesus too is YHWH.

Reading the verse 4 and 10 together:

Zechariah 12v4,10 -In that day saith the LORD (YHWH), I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness:....and I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications: and they shall look upon ME (YHWH) whom they have pierced (JESUS).....

The second messianic verse where Jesus is called YHWH;

Jeremiah 23v5-6 -Behold the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is His NAME whereby He shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGTHEOUSNESS (YHWH TSIDKENU)

Jesus is YHWH TSIDKENU.

I'm someone that loves to let the bible say what it said; and not read personal sentiments to it. And the bible clearly called and referred to Jesus as Yahovah, God and even Father in more than one scripture.

The issue I have is just when people try to make that imply that it means Jesus is the same person as THE FATHER or that Jesus is equal in authority to the Father, or that its together that Jesus and the Father are God or YHWH.

NO! Scripture is clear that even though Jesus is called Yahovah, God, Father and Head; He equally has someone else that is ALL that to Him as well. Jesus has a God, a Father and a Head. Establishing that Jesus is not the MostHigh God, or the Ultimate Father or the Overall Head. It is the Father.

Admitting this felt weird to me too at first for a while, coz I felt as if I was reducing Jesus. I had a bit of a battle admitting it and a bit of a struggle confessing it -that Jesus has a God or that He is not the Mosthigh God.

Changing your doctrinal opinion after many years can be that difficult and tasking; but I love to pursue doctrinal and scriptural truth at all cost. I myself believed and preached trinity before; infact if you look at some of my earliest posts on NL, I argued for the trinity doctrine.

But I started seeing from scripture, that their oneness is not equality. Jesus and the Father are not God together. Jesus is God but the Father is the God of Jesus. And this was not just in the days of His humanity -it is a truth that continues into eternity.

Jesus called the Father His God, when He walked the earth as the Son of Man, when He hung on the cross as the lamb of God and when He rose from the dead as the Son of God and resurrected Christ.

And over fifty years later after His glorification and enthronement in heaven; in the vision of John, the Father was still His God.

And in the age to come, when the kingdom is come and Jesus is enthroned on earth; He will still be subject to His Father.

Jesus was not just being humble when He said "The Father is greater than I". He was speaking the truth. Humility is agreement with the truth. The Father was, is and will forever be greater than Jesus.

ayoku777:
Other messianic verses of the bible where Jesus is shown to also be Yahovah (YHWH)

Zachariah 12v10 -And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications: and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced....

Now who is the "I" and the "ME whom they have pierced" that was talking here?

Back up to verse 4;

Zechariah 12v4 -In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astnonishment, and his rider with madness:....

So the "pierced one" whom the house of David will look to is Yahovah.

And we all know Jesus is the "pierced one" not the Father. So Jesus too is YHWH.

Reading the verse 4 and 10 together:

Zechariah 12v4,10 -In that day saith the LORD (YHWH), I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness:....and I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications: and they shall look upon ME (YHWH) whom they have pierced (JESUS).....

The second messianic verse where Jesus is called YHWH;

Jeremiah 23v5-6 -Behold the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is His NAME whereby He shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGTHEOUSNESS (YHWH TSIDKENU)

Jesus is YHWH TSIDKENU.

I'm someone that loves to let the bible say what it said; and not read personal sentiments to it. And the bible clearly called and referred to Jesus as Yahovah, God and even Father in more than one scripture.

The issue I have is just when people try to make that imply that it means Jesus is the same person as THE FATHER or that Jesus is equal in authority to the Father, or that its together that Jesus and the Father are God or YHWH.

NO! Scripture is clear that even though Jesus is called Yahovah, God, Father and Head; He equally has someone else that is ALL that to Him as well. Jesus has a God, a Father and a Head. Establishing that Jesus is not the MostHigh God, or the Ultimate Father or the Overall Head. It is the Father.

Admitting this felt weird to me too at first for a while, coz I felt as if I was reducing Jesus. I had a bit of a battle admitting it and a bit of a struggle confessing it -that Jesus has a God or that He is not the Mosthigh God.

Changing your doctrinal opinion after many years can be that difficult and tasking; but I love to pursue doctrinal and scriptural truth at all cost. I myself believed and preached trinity before; infact if you look at some of my earliest posts on NL, I argued for the trinity doctrine.

But I started seeing from scripture, that their oneness is not equality. Jesus and the Father are not God together. Jesus is God but the Father is the God of Jesus. And this was not just in the days of His humanity -it is a truth that continues into eternity.

Jesus called the Father His God, when He walked the earth as the Son of Man, when He hung on the cross as the lamb of God and when He rose from the dead as the Son of God and resurrected Christ.

And over fifty years later after His glorification and enthronement in heaven; in the vision of John, the Father was still His God.

And in the age to come, when the kingdom is come and Jesus is enthroned on earth; He will still be subject to His Father.

Jesus was not just being humble when He said "The Father is greater than I". He was speaking the truth. Humility is agreement with the truth. The Father was, is and will forever be greater than Jesus.

When we talk about events, let's consider other factors as well. During Jesus time what was the jewish belief? "O ye Israel, the LOrd our God is one". That was the basis of their belief. Now tell me, do you expect Jesus to start preaching with the message that "I am your God"? Or I created you all?" That would jeopardize his mission and besides, his wisdom is at work here too. He had to obey their law, the jewish law. Be it the way they worship in the temple or their belief that only one God exist. Why did they call him blasphemy? "He made himself equal to God''!!! God is a title. God the father, God the son and God the spirit makes up the GOdhead.
When He created the world, all He said was Let there be light" that spoken word, which was generated from that same substance brought out creation. Bear in mind, that word was not created,..no! It was generated from a source, making it have the same qualities as the source itself. Jesus the Word. Jesus is God the son.
Whatever he did on earth was to teach the people. Teach them how to live, love and pray to God. Do you expect him to be pompous and proud? His coming is to bring a new ideology and also teach them how to relate to God.

So all these theories you people are talking or arguing will not take you anywhere.

Emusan:


How can God be created?

Remember, Jesus Is NOT the Almighty God ( John 20:17)

Actually, I've addressed this point but for the purpose of the bolded part I'll ask you this question.

Explain how Jesus was BORN INTO EXISTENCE without YOU CHANGING the word FIRSTBORN into FIRSTCREATED?
Beside FIRSTBORN and FIRSTCREATED do they mean the same thin?

Hypocrisy in action ............
FIRST [BORN/b] OF ALL CREATION ! NOTE: FIRST /BORN/ OF CREATION Col 1:15.

I can see you lack basic English the verse says [b]"...so that he might become the one who is first in all things;" NWT If Jesus is first IN all things is there anything above Him again and what is the mean of OVER? Remember I didn't include the Father in all things before you misquote me.

!

YES ! First BORN OF CREATION ( born of creation, a part of creation) Col 1:15

First BORN from the dead ( part of the dead before his ressurection)

Many people died before Jesus and resurrect before Him, so why will Apostle Paul said Jesus is the FIRSTBORN among the dead if the word FIRSTBORN here doesn't mean pre-eminence/supremacy?

He Was part of the dead NOT exclusive of the word "dead" ! But firstborn because he was the first to be raised to Immortality , UNLIKE others who died again, Jesus wont die anymore! But remember he was not exclusive from the dead , so dont play games removing him from " CREATION" Col 1:15

Are you telling me that Jesus is not SUPREME over the dead?
I guess you don't even know the meaning of pre-eminence, do you?

! #smiles# Am not saying he is not supreme
, but the fact remains that he was before ressurection part of the "dead" ! Col 1:18

FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION

Eberex:


When we talk about events, let's consider other factors as well. During Jesus time what was the jewish belief? "O ye Israel, the LOrd our God is one". That was the basis of their belief. Now tell me, do you expect Jesus to start preaching with the message that "I am your God"? Or I created you all?" That would jeopardize his mission and besides, his wisdom is at work here too. He had to obey their law, the jewish law. Be it the way they worship in the temple or their belief that only one God exist. Why did they call him blasphemy? "He made himself equal to God''!!! God is a title. God the father, God the son and God the spirit makes up the GOdhead.
When He created the world, all He said was Let there be light" that spoken word, which was generated from that same substance brought out creation. Bear in mind, that word was not created,..no! It was generated from a source, making it have the same qualities as the source itself. Jesus the Word. Jesus is God the son.
Whatever he did on earth was to teach the people. Teach them how to live, love and pray to God. Do you expect him to be pompous and proud? His coming is to bring a new ideology and also teach them how to relate to God.

So all these theories you people are talking or arguing will not take you anywhere.

Are you saying Jesus preached a lie or said less than the truth, so that the Jews could accept His message? If the Father is NOT His God will He say the Father is so that the Jews will not stone Him?

And did you see the part where He still called the Father His God after He rose from the dead? And in the book of revelation; long after His glorification and enthronement in heaven? He still called the Father "My God". Or He's still saying that for the sake of the Jews?

Or the part in 1Cor where the Son will be subject to the Father for eternity? I wish I was making this stuff up, but I'm not.

No one is saying Jesus isn't God, no one is saying He's no the creator, no one is saying He's not the Word -He is all that and even more. All I'm saying is that the Father is also His God.

I know how you feel. Saying Jesus has a God will feel weird for a while, but it is the truth. Jesus doesn't lie, or say what is not the truth for any reason.

Or do you disagree that the Father is the God of Jesus?

ayoku777:


Are you saying Jesus preached a lie or said less than the truth, so that the Jews could accept His message? If the Father is NOT His God will He say the Father is so that the Jews will not stone Him?

And did you see the part where He still called the Father His God after He rose from the dead and in the book of revelation? Long after His glorification and enthronement in heaven? He still called the Father My God. Or He's still saying that for the sake of the Jews?

Or the part in 1Cor where the son will be subject to the Father for eternity? I wish I was making this stuff up, but I'm not.

No one is saying Jesus isn't God, I'm only saying the Father is also His God. I know how you feel. Saying Jesus has a God will feel weird for a while, but it is the truth. Jesus doesn't lie, or say what is not the truth for any reason.

Or do you disagree that the Father is the God of Jesus?

THANK YOU ...... The last 2 paragraphs is very sound.

ayoku777:


Are you saying Jesus preached a lie or said less than the truth, so that the Jews could accept His message? If the Father is NOT His God will He say the Father is so that the Jews will not stone Him?

And did you see the part where He still called the Father His God after He rose from the dead? And in the book of revelation; long after His glorification and enthronement in heaven? He still called the Father "My God". Or He's still saying that for the sake of the Jews?

Or the part in 1Cor where the Son will be subject to the Father for eternity? I wish I was making this stuff up, but I'm not.

No one is saying Jesus isn't God, no one is saying He's no the creator, no one is saying He's not the Word -He is all that and even more. All I'm saying is that the Father is also His God.

I know how you feel. Saying Jesus has a God will feel weird for a while, but it is the truth. Jesus doesn't lie, or say what is not the truth for any reason.

Or do you disagree that the Father is the God of Jesus?

Jesus is part of the trinity. God the father, God the Son and God the Holy spirit. Each entity is equal.

I rest my case.

Emusan:
[size=14pt]Before I reply your post I want you to openly apologize for this lie if not I won't reply your post.[/size]



Your point that I replied to was then I replied AND YOUR REPLY TO MY POST WAS

NOTICE my first statement WHEN YOU FAILED TO READ YOUR BIBLE

Do you agree that you're lying?

Lying? Is that what this is about? ....hehehe....

Did you see the polite way I asked you to quote me where I said so because I knew it had to be a misunderstanding not a QUARREL. (NB: I run from quarrels- I believe we are not quarrels)

Emusan, I must admit I was wrong when I said, " The Lord in that account was not Jehovah" in page 1 of this discussion. I was too hasty. You did not state the Scripture you quoted from and I responded without researching where you quoted from.

I did not lie intentionally (My intention was not to deceive) like you claim. After you quoted that scripture of Isaiah 40:3, Note my comments on it: I affirmed that it was God's name Jehovah that was mentioned and using Malachi 3:1 and Jesus' comments that HE CAME IN HIS FATHERS NAME.

If I did lie about the first instance intentionally, my posts in page 2 and 3 would contradict that, meaning something is of- two statements can't be right.



To please your enhanced ego, I wish to state that my first statement " The Lord in that account is not Jehovah" is WRONG. (A problem resulting from removal of God's name from the KJV/NKJV and my personal conviction that every mention of the word LORD in the bible does not necessary mean Jehovah)

RikoduoSennin:

Lying? Is that what this is about? ....hehehe....

Did you see the polite way I asked you to quote me where I said so because I knew it had to be a misunderstanding not a QUARREL. (NB: I run from quarrels- I believe we are not quarrels)

[size=14pt]Emusan, I must admit I was wrong when I said, " The Lord in that account was not Jehovah" in page 1 of this discussion.[/size] I was too hasty. You did not state the Scripture you quoted from and [size=14pt]I responded without researching where you quoted from.[/size]

I did not lie intentionally (My intention was not to deceive) like you claim. After you quoted that scripture of Isaiah 40:3, Note my comments on it: I affirmed that it was God's name Jehovah that was mentioned and using Malachi 3:1 and Jesus' comments that HE CAME IN HIS FATHERS NAME.

If I did lie about the first instance intentionally, my posts in page 2 and 3 would contradict that, meaning something is of- two statements can't be right.

To please your enhanced ego, I wish to state that my first statement " The Lord in that account is not Jehovah" is WRONG. (A problem resulting from removal of God's name from the KJV/NKJV and my personal conviction that every mention of the word LORD in the bible does not necessary mean Jehovah)

I didn't expect you to prolong this particular post until you type more than 200 characters.

What I needed from you is the bolded part, thank you.

Please and please always with your brain whenever you want to reply my post, Ok!

CAPTIVATOR:

Remember, Jesus Is NOT the Almighty God ( John 20:17)

Did my post say anything about Jesus being the Almighty God or not?
I simply asked, can God be created? which I didn't see any correlation between the question I asked and your reply.

Hypocrisy in action ............
FIRST [BORN/b] OF ALL CREATION ! NOTE: FIRST /BORN/ OF CREATION Col 1:15.

Again, what I demanded of you is [b]Explain how Jesus was BORN INTO EXISTENCE without YOU CHANGING the word FIRSTBORN into FIRSTCREATED?

YES! First BORN OF CREATION ( born of creation, a part of creation) Col 1:15

If Jesus is FIRSTBORN of ALL CREATION, were the rest of the CREATION also BORN?

First BORN from the dead ( part of the dead before his ressurection)

You agreed is not the FIRST to die, right?

He Was part of the dead NOT exclusive of the word "dead" ! But firstborn because he was the first to be raised to Immortality , UNLIKE others who died again, Jesus wont die anymore! But remember he was not exclusive from the dead , so dont play games removing him from" CREATION" Col 1:15

Who is playing game?

So those people who resurrected immediately Jesus gave up the ghost (Matt 27:52) were still mortal, right?
Abraham, Moses e.t.c were also mortal in heaven, right?

#smiles# Am not saying he is not supreme
, but the fact remains that he was before ressurection part of the "dead" ! Col 1:18

Does this statement have any meaning to you?

FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION

You're still confusing yourself with the word FIRSTBORN.

ayoku777:


In Exodus 7v1, the Lord said to Moses 'See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh'. 'God' there is the hebrew 'elohim' and the LORD conferred it on Moses after He sent him with His word. Then Exodus 21v5-6 'And if the servant shall say I love my master, my wife, and my children, I will not go out free. Then his master shall bring him unto the judges... The word 'judges' is also the hebrew 'elohim'. And it was conferred on people given the right of judgment by God, eg Priests and Elders in Israel. Also check Exodus 22v8-9.


Then when Jesus came He said 'I and My Father are one' John 10v30. I've heard some christians say he was talking about oneness in terms of purpose and mission. Emphatically NO! He was talking to jews who knew the scriptures in Deut 6v4 'Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD (YHWH)'. So when Jesus said I and my Father are ONE, he meant I and my Father are JEHOVAH (The Self-Existent One). So Jesus didn't even call himself elohim, He called himself YHWH. Calling himself elohim would have even been bearable to the jews 'coz there were people who God conferred the title on under the law, but to the Jews calling yourself YHWH was going too far. That was why the Jews wanted to stone him. So God is even a title too little for Jesus, that's a title for the Church (those born of the Word), Jesus is Jehovah, just like the Father.

Moving on, the Jews reply Jesus in John 10v33 For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy and because that thou being a man, makest thyself God'. Jesus replied them and said in v34-35 Is it not written in your law, I said Ye are Gods? If He called them Gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scriptures cannot be broken. In other words, if those sent with the word of God are called Gods, how much more those BORN OF THE WORD (the church)? And how much much much more THE WORD HIMSELF (Jesus). So hear this, The Father, The Word, The Church (through the Spirit) are Elohim. But only the Father and the Word are Jehovah or YHWH (Self-Existent) as stated by Christ in John 5v26 For as the Father hath life in himself (Self-existent), so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (self-existent).

Ofcos the JW Folks supporting you won't like the bolded. Or did you change your mind also?

Bidam:
Ofcos the JW Folks supporting you won't like the bolded. Or did you change your mind also?

I'm not pro- or anti-JW. I'm pro-scripture. I don't think I've ever said Jesus is not YHWH or self-existent or God like the Father. I've only always said the Father is the God of Jesus, as Jesus is our God. A claim I've used scriptures to back up.

If JW who support me in the fact the Father is greater than Jesus, disagree with me on the fact that Jesus is also YHWH; I can't help it. I only say what the scriptures say.

The scripture says Jesus is mighty God, Eternal Father, YHWH and Head. And it also says, the Father is His Father, God, and Head. And that He's greater than Jesus.

I say what the scriptures say. I'm not pro- or anti- any demonination. Just pro-scripture. I can't apologize for the truth.

Those who disagree with me that Jesus is YHWH should contend with the scriptures I used to show that Jesus is YHWH. And those who disagree with me that the Father is the God of Jesus, should contend with the scriptures I used to show that the Father is the God of Jesus.

Denominationalism creates doctrinal sentiments and prevents you from being objective with scripture. That's why I don't to denomination.

I also don't do denominations, just asked you a question. Just like i aksed you on the explanation of Phil 2: 6 which till date you couldn't give a reasonable reply. Cheers bro.

ayoku777:


I'm not pro- or anti-JW. I'm pro-scripture. I don't think I've ever said Jesus is not YHWH or self-existent or God like the Father. I've only always said the Father is the God of Jesus, as Jesus is our God. A claim I've used scriptures to back up.

If JW who support me in the fact the Father is greater than Jesus, disagree with me on the fact that Jesus is also YHWH; I can't help it. I only say what the scriptures say.

The scripture says Jesus is mighty God, Eternal Father, YHWH and Head. And it also says, the Father is His Father, God, and Head. And that He's greater than Jesus.

I say what the scriptures say. I'm not pro- or anti- any demonination. Just pro-scripture. I can't apologize for the truth.

Those who disagree with me that Jesus is YHWH should contend with the scriptures I used to show that Jesus is YHWH. And those who disagree with me that the Father is the God of Jesus, should contend with the scriptures I used to show that the Father is the God of Jesus.

Denominationalism creates doctrinal sentiments and prevents you from being objective with scripture. That's why I don't to denomination.

Bidam:
I also don't do denominations, just asked you a question. Just like i aksed you on the explanation of Phil 2: 6 which till date you couldn't give a reasonable reply. Cheers bro.

Never knew I didn't reply that question.

Philippians 2v6-7 -Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

This is self explanatory. This scripture was talking of Jesus in His humanity, when He became the son of man, and walked the earth in the likeness of men; even though He was God.

How does this contradict anything I've been saying. That Jesus is God just like the Father or debunk the fact that the Father is the God of Jesus?

ayoku777:


Never knew I didn't reply that question.

Philippians 2v6-7 -Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of God.

This is self explanatory. This scripture was talking of when Jesus became the son of man, and walked the earth; even though He was in the from of God.

How does this contradict anything I've been saying. That Jesus is God just like the Father or debunk the fact that the Father is the God of Jesus?

You overlooked the equal part.

Bidam:
You overlooked the equal part.

That's the word you're tripping on -equality.

So if Jesus is equal to the Father as God, does that make them equal in authority?

You're a man and your father is a man. There is nothing he has as a man that you don't have. In humanity you're his equal -but not in authority. He is still greater than you in authority.

Micheal, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, and all the other angels are all angels -they are equal as angels and in angelic divinity; but not in authority. There are Arch-angels, there are Cherubs, there are Seraphs and there are regular angels.

Jesus is God just like the Father; in divinity they are equal -but not in authority. Jesus is God, but the Father is His God. Equality in divinity (or in Godhood, if you will) is not equality in authority.

Jesus is God but He has a God -The Father. Phil 2v6 does not contradict Rev 3v12.

ayoku777:


Oh, so that's the word you're tripping on -equality.

So if Jesus is equal to the Father as God, does that make them equal in authority?

You're a man and your father is a man. There is nothing he has that you don't have. In humanity you're his equal -but not in authority. He is still greater than you in authority.

Jesus is God just like the Father; in divinity they are equal -but not in authority. Jesus is God, but the Father is His God. Equality in divinity (or in Godhood, if you will) is not equality in authority.

Jesus is God but He has a God -The Father. Phil 2v6 does not contradict Rev 3v12.

Jesus is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. God is not a polytheism. He is ONE and manifest himself in 3 distinct personalities. Jesus is immortal and eternal just like the Father and the Holy Ghost is immortal and eternal. I never dispute Jesus as being God the Son in terms of hierarchy of the Godhead. And that's why it is called a mystery cos humans finite minds can't comprehend who God is. And pls don't try to explain the Godhead in humans terms. It is in-explainable cos where is the position of the mother in terms of the authority you are talking about? Even at that i can have equal authority as my Father since as a son he gives me that same authority he wields cos i proceed from him.

And rev3:12 doesn't contradict Pauline epistle in phil 2v6 cos both Jesus and the Holy Spirit proceeded from the FATHER. The Holy Spirit too is the Father of Jesus(Mathew 1:20). HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

Bidam:
Jesus is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. God is not a polytheism. He is ONE and manifest himself in 3 distinct personalities. Jesus is immortal and eternal just like the Father and the Holy Ghost is immortal and eternal. I never dispute Jesus as being God the Son in terms of hierarchy of the Godhead. And that's why it is called a mystery cos humans finite minds can't comprehend who God is. And pls don't try to explain the Godhead in humans terms. It is in-explainable cos where is the position of the mother in terms of the authority you are talking about? Even at that i can have equal authority as my Father since as a son he gives me that same authority he wields cos i proceed from him.

And rev3:12 doesn't contradict Pauline epistle in phil 2v6 cos both Jesus and the Holy Spirit proceeded from the FATHER. The Holy Spirit too is the Father of Jesus(Mathew 1:20). HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

So God is not Poly according to you, yet John said GOD WAS WITH GOD.

Jesus who is GOD also said the Father is HIS GOD. How can a God have a God and its not talking of two?

We always call something a "mystery" when we can't give it a simple objective interpretation.

You're my boss, but you also have a boss. Simple explanation -there are two bosses and one boss is the boss of the other.

This simple explanation becomes a "mystery" when you don't want to be objective with interpretation.

Elohim in hebrew is plural.

And please, the Holy Spirit is not the Father of Jesus. That Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is the Father.

Its no brainer that everything God does on earth, He does by the power of His Spirit including the virgin conception of Jesus. Just as the Father created nothing but by the Word.

The bible said God sent His only begotten son; meaning before Jesus was even sent into the world, He was the begotten son of the Father.

The Father was the Father of Jesus from eternity past -since the time He (Jesus) was begotten as the beginning of the Fathers works.

Before Jesus was ever conceived by the Holy Spirit, He was always the begotten son of God. He was only conceived by a virgin through the Holy Spirit.

Emusan:
Please and please always with your brain whenever you want to reply my post, Ok!

I just smiled ..... Honestly speaking, You dont need all this emotional outburst
.

Again, what I demanded of you is Explain how Jesus was BORN INTO EXISTENCE

Jesus was born into existence as the direct Creation of the FATHER , Making Him the ' FIRST-BORN OF All CREATION" by the Invisible God, The FATHER Col 1:15, Proverb 8:22,30 >Matthew 11:19) !
This is why Jesus is reffered to as the " Son of God" , the same way Created angels are also called " son of God" Job 38:4-7 And the first human creature is also refered to as the " Son Of God" Luk 3:38

NOTE: [b]THE title " Son Of God" is never applied to the Father, The FATHER Was Never Created! ( Psalm 90:2)


DO YOU NOW BELIEVE THAT JESUS HAVE A SUPERIOR GOD ??

ayoku777:


So God is not Poly according to you, yet John said GOD WAS WITH GOD.

This is dishonest. Why don't you quote it in full. John said THE WORD WAS GOD.(ONE).

Jesus who is GOD also said the Father is HIS GOD. How can a God have a God and its not talking of two?

God is uncreated and He created the world THROUGH Jesus( The CREATOR).

We always call something a "mystery" when we can't give it a simple objective interpretation.

You can take up the argument with Paul. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.—1 TIMOTHY 3:16.

You're my boss, but you also have a boss. Simple explanation -there are two bosses and one boss is the boss of the other.

This analogy doesn't explain the deity of Christ. God is ONE. Any other gods including satan,humans or idols are FALSE gods.

This simple explanation becomes a "mystery" when you don't want to be objective with interpretation.

Paul called it a mystery. Deal with that.

Elohim in hebrew is plural.

You already said Jesus is not elohim but YHWH.

And please, the Holy Spirit is not the Father of Jesus. That Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is the Father.

The Holy Spirit is a person not a force. Do you agree?

Its no brainer that everything God does on earth, He does by the power of His Spirit including the virgin conception of Jesus. Just as the Father created nothing but by the Word.

God does nothing without the TWO...Do you agree?

The bible said God sent His only begotten son; meaning before Jesus was even sent into the world, He was the begotten son of the Father.

The Father was the Father of Jesus from eternity past -since the time He (Jesus) was begotten as the beginning of the Fathers works.

Before Jesus was ever conceived by the Holy Spirit, He was always the begotten son of God. He was only conceived by a virgin through the Holy Spirit

I am not arguing the fatherhood of Jesus with you. My argument is in terms of co-equality and co-eternal and so far you have been unconvincing. Let it rest abeg

Stop and think one moment. The name God is not really in the bible. If this is not an English book written by Englishmen, it’s not there; it was added. You will also find that God, whether you have a big G, or little g, is not being used in the singular tense, as Eloh or Allah. The beings spoken of in the bible and Koran are the Elohim, the plural of Eloh.

Bidam:
This is dishonest. Why don't you quote it in full. John said THE WORD WAS GOD.(ONE).
God is uncreated and He created the world THROUGH Jesus( The CREATOR).
You can take up the argument with Paul. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.—1 TIMOTHY 3:16.


This analogy doesn't explain the deity of Christ. God is ONE. Any other gods including satan,humans or idols are FALSE gods.
Paul called it a mystery. Deal with that.
You already said Jesus is not elohim but YHWH.
The Holy Spirit is a person not a force. Do you agree?

God does nothing without the TWO...Do you agree?
I am not arguing the fatherhood of Jesus with you. My argument is in terms of co-equality and co-eternal and so far you have been unconvincing. Let it rest abeg

Yeah, the Word(God) was with God; and the Word was God. What am I saying what are you saying?

No one said Jesus was created, Jesus was pro-created (begotten) of the Father. And He created ALL things.

Nawa o. Did I ever say Jesus is not God?? ?? ?? ??!!

I said Jesus is God, and the Father is also His God.

Please explain to me how you can be equal with the person you call YOUR GOD. Or that is a mystery too?

Please and don't give me excuse that this is not applicable to God, whenever I give human analogy. Writing off every analogy I give as not being application to God is just an attempt to wiggle your way through the discuss.

How can YOUR GOD be your equal? How can God have a God and yet they are the same and are equal.

Leme guess, its a mystery.

Jesus is God, but He has a God because He is not the Mosthigh God. The person you call your God is not your equal. And no amount of "it is a mystery" can make it so.

This is the kind of subjective interpretation of scriptures that makes unbelievers laugh at us. When we can't be objective with interpretation.

YOUR GOD IS NOT YOUR EQUAL.

You keep saying God is one, the same bible also said "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit"

Does that mean there is only one spirit in the "one spirit"? Ofcourse not! There is the human spirit and there is the Holy spirit.

Scripture even said the Spirit beareth witness with OUR SPIRIT.

"One Spirit" doesn't mean there is only one spirit in the union. And neither doesn't mean the spirits have the same level of authority.

But let me guess again -this analogy is not applicable to God. It is a mystery.

Mehn, the mind is a powerful thing.

CAPTIVATOR:

I just smiled ..... Honestly speaking, You dont need all this emotional outburst

Your problem still remains the same and it is only God who can deliver you from it.

Jesus was born into existence as the direct Creation of the FATHER , Making Him the ' FIRST-BORN OF All CREATION" by the Invisible God, The FATHER Col 1:15, Proverb 8:22,30 >Matthew 11:19)!
This is why Jesus is reffered to as the " Son of God" , the same way Created angels are also called " son of God" Job 38:4-7 And the first human creature is also refered to as the " Son Of God" Luk 3:38

NOTE: THE title " Son Of God" is never applied to the Father, The FATHER Was Never Created! ( Psalm 90:2)

This is the question I asked you

Emusan: Again, what I demanded of you is Explain how Jesus was BORN INTO EXISTENCE without YOU CHANGING the word FIRSTBORN into FIRSTCREATED?

but when you wanted to quote me you only quoted the part that suits you

CAPTIVATOR:
Again, what I demanded of you is Explain how Jesus was BORN INTO EXISTENCE.

And also you couldn't deal with my other question than to boycott it totally

Emusan: If Jesus is FIRSTBORN of ALL CREATION, were the rest of the CREATION also BORN?

Because you know there's no way for you to deal with the questions, you have to keep repeating all what you've been programmed with.

Mind you I only want to correct your shallow knowledge and the way you misapply the word FIRSTBORN by ALWAYS CHANGING it to FIRSTCREATED.

DO YOU NOW BELIEVE THAT JESUS HAVE A SUPERIOR GOD??

The point is FIRSTBORN...and after I've warned you not to deviate from the main point you can still displaying it again.

ayoku777:


Yeah, the word was God and the Word(God) was with God. What am I saying what are you saying.

No one said Jesus was created, Jesus was pro-created (begotten) of the Father. And He created ALL things.

Nawa o. Did I ever say Jesus is not God?

I said Jesus is God, and the Father is also is God.

Please explain to me how you can be equal with the person you call YOUR GOD. Or that is a mystery too?

Please and don't give me excuse that this is not applicable to God, whenever I give human analogy. Writing off every analogy I give as not being application to God is just an attempt to wiggle your way through the discuss.

How can YOUR GOD be your equal? How can God have a God and yet they are the same and are equal.

Leme guess, its a mystery.

Jesus is God, but He has a God because He is not the Mosthigh God. The person you call your God is not your equal. And no amount of "it is a mystery" can make it so.

This is the kind of subjective interpretation of scriptures that makes unbelievers laugh at us. When we can't be objective with interpretation

YOUR GOD IS NOT YOUR EQUAL.

When it comes to deity..we don't explain it with logic or science. We stick to scriptures and the revelations Christ gave Paul. Paul called it a MYSTERY... I'd rather stick with PAUL'S REVELATION to your palongo gyrations here. Let atheist laff at me.. I wonder the objective interpretations you made that will make unbelievers agree with you.And point of correction I NEVER called Jesus( God in the flesh) my equal.

Bidam:
When it comes to deity..we don't explain it with logic or science. We stick to scriptures and the revelations Christ gave Paul. Paul called it a MYSTERY... I'd rather stick with PAUL'S REVELATION to your palongo gyrations here. Let atheist laff at me.. I wonder the objective interpretations you made that will make unbelievers agree with you.And point of correction I NEVER called Jesus( God in the flesh) my equal.

Will you stick to Christ's revelation that the Father is HIS GOD?

ayoku777:

No one said Jesus was created, Jesus was pro-created (begotten) of the Father. And He created ALL things.

How does the Father procreate Jesus Christ? is it through creation or what?
Your answer here will show how you really understand what you're saying.

Nawa o. Did I ever say Jesus is not God?

I said Jesus is God, and the Father is also is God.

The Father is eternal and uncreated(No beginning), do you believe Jesus as God also possesses this attributes? If No! what do you think Apostle John was emphasising when he said Jesus is God?

Please explain to me how you can be equal with the person you call YOUR GOD. Or that is a mystery too?

I believe you're not talking about equality in position here? Because is like you agree with equality in NATURE in one of your previous post.

How can YOUR GOD be your equal? How can God have a God and yet they are the same and are equal.

Leme guess, its a mystery.

As above

Jesus is God, but He has a God because He is not the Mosthigh God. The person you call your God is not your equal. And no amount of "it is a mystery" can make it so.

I'll still like to know WHAT TYPE OF GOD you believe Jesus is, is it the same with how JW view Him?

This is the kind of subjective interpretation of scriptures that makes unbelievers laugh at us. When we can't be objective with interpretation

The underlined almost cracks my ribs, do you know that your own explanation is even awkward more than the people you're referring to?

Emusan:


How does the Father procreate Jesus Christ? is it through creation or what?
Your answer here will show how you really understand what you're saying.



The Father is eternal and uncreated(No beginning), do you believe Jesus as God also possesses this attributes? If No! what do you think Apostle John was emphasising when he said Jesus is God?



I believe you're not talking about equality in position here? Because is like you agree with equality in NATURE in one of your previous post.



As above



I'll still like to know WHAT TYPE OF GOD you believe Jesus is, is it the same with how JW view Him?



The underlined almost cracks my ribs, do you know that your own explanation is even awkward more than the people you're referring to?

bro, I will advice you to let them be, they coment you made here is enough to guide anyone who is lost, infacte your first post was enough, I learn a lot from you here. God bless you.

Emusan:


How does the Father procreate Jesus Christ? is it through creation or what?
Your answer here will show how you really understand what you're saying.



The Father is eternal and uncreated(No beginning), do you believe Jesus as God also possesses this attributes? If No! what do you think Apostle John was emphasising when he said Jesus is God?



I believe you're not talking about equality in position here? Because is like you agree with equality in NATURE in one of your previous post.



As above



I'll still like to know WHAT TYPE OF GOD you believe Jesus is, is it the same with how JW view Him?



The underlined almost cracks my ribs, do you know that your own explanation is even awkward more than the people you're referring to?

I'm getting seriously tired of typing.

To beget and to pro-create are the same thing. If it is the "-create" in "pro-create" that is the issue, you can replace it with beget. Unless you don't agree Jesus is also begotten.

Are you guys trying to say there is no objectivity in spiritual matters?

How come Jesus used everyday events and analogy to explain the kingdom of God?

What we call parables are everyday analogies describing and explaining the kingdom.

Ofcourse I know you need the Holy Spirit to understand scripture, but sound doctrine is not haywire, such that it lacks every bit of objectivity.

Paul used family to explain christ and the church, sowing and reaping to explain flesh and death etc.

There is objective analogy in scripture.

Waving away of every analogy in the pretext that it is human, so "not applicable" in explaining God is not a sound or intelligent way to discuss.

Emusan

You asked what kind of a God Jesus is?

Well the kind of a God that has a God.

Do you believe Jesus has a God? Do you believe the Father is the God of Jesus?