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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? (2437 Views)
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Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 6:59pm On Apr 22, 2015 |
PASSAGES THAT SAY CHRIST DIED FOR ALL MEN; 1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." 1 John 4:14, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD." Hebrews 2:9, "But we see Jesus...that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN." 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, "For the love of Christ constraineth us...And that HE DIED FOR ALL..." John 1:29, "...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the WORLD." 1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD ." PASSEGES THAT SAY CHRIST DIED FOR HIS PEOPLE,ASSEMBLY; Matthew 20:28, "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for MANY." Matthew 26:28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins." Luke 1:68, "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed HIS PEOPLE ," Luke 22:20, "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for YOU." Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD which he hath purchased with his own blood." WHICH IS TRUE? Well, they both are true (when these scriptures are used together), and they both are false (if one claims either one is true or the other). To say that Christ died only for His elect is to contradict the verses that say he died for all men, in addition to contradicting what Peter says by inspiration in 2 Peter 2:1-4. Peter talked about false teachers who were "even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves." He clearly states that those who teach such "destructive heresies" and those who follow after them will be lost, even though Jesus had paid the price for their salvation. Others argue that if Christ died for all, then all are saved. If He paid the price for all, then all have been redeemed. If Christ is truly the propitiation for all, then God's demands are satisfied for all. But they forget one vital detail: not all accept the gift! The debt has surely been paid for all by Christ, but not all choose to put on Christ (Galatians 3:26-27). LET US LOOK INTO THE VERSE THAT BRING THIS TWO TOGETHER; 1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN ,SPECIALLY OF THOES THAT BELIEVE." Yes, You see, salvation is conditional. Christ died for all men, but not all believe and accept His gift of salvation. Therefore, this answers the dilemma of how Christ died for all men and for his people at the same time! Yes, he died for all men, and salvation is a gift offered to all men, but only those who choose Christ will have salvation. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 9:03pm On Apr 24, 2015 |
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Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Nobody: 9:10pm On Apr 24, 2015 |
Certainly for those who stupidly believe the story. 1 Like |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Nobody: 2:05am On Apr 25, 2015 |
@malvisguy212; read each of the verses and reflect on each about when it was said, who said it, etc prior to event of crucifixion or crucifiction. there is no verse that remotely could be assumed is from Jesus except where it was being said this is my blood. and this verse and the other like it seemed to have been written after the fact has been established assuming that he was killed. will be shed is a future event. but shed for you is past and it does not make sense to then be putting cup full of wine to symbolize blood already shed. but on the pages of the bible we can read 'he cried to the One Who could save him and he was heard [his request was accepted as when he made a request about Lazarus]. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Nobody: 3:35am On Apr 25, 2015 |
If Jesus died for our sins, only to come back again to save mankind, did he really save us in the first place? Heck! Did he really die in the first place? 1 Like |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 6:35am On Apr 25, 2015 |
RoyPCain:Jesus told some Jews, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.... He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:44, 47). And later still, He told them plainly, "Ye are not of MY SHEEP" (John 10:26). In Matthew 25:32-33, Jesus said He would separate the nations "as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats." Those who are of the sheep inherited the Kingdom, but the goats were not allowed into the kingdom. With all of this information, will we conclude that those who are "goats" and "not of God" but who are "from the Devil," have salvation, when Christ so clearly excluded them? The answer is, "NO." So will we then conclude that Christ did not die for the "goats", but only for "His sheep"? The answer is, "NO." You see, Christ died for both the goats and the sheep. That is the gift he offers to all men, to the world. He offers everybody salvation. But not everybody has salvation. Only those who accept His gift will become "His sheep," and only His sheep will have salvation.if you chose to reject the free gift of God, is your choice. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 6:37am On Apr 25, 2015 |
EzioAuditore:Jesus came to save mankind?from what? Jesus will come as a righteous judge. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Nobody: 12:02pm On Apr 25, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Did he not already die for our sins? Chill, what does he want again? What's the point of dying for people's sins only to come back alive again? How can someone in his right mind believe this fraud? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 6:27pm On Apr 25, 2015 |
EzioAuditore:Jesus died and was ressurected and liveth forever more Amen. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Nobody: 6:53pm On Apr 25, 2015 |
malvisguy212: What's the point of him dying (for our sins), only to get resurrected? Do you have any idea how barmy this sound? |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 7:04pm On Apr 25, 2015 |
EzioAuditore:dead in sin and alive in christ. Good day. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Nobody: 7:23pm On Apr 25, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Lol! Alright dweeb! But even if the romans didn't "kill" him, was he not going to die anyways? |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 1:10pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
malvisguy212: |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Nobody: 1:32pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
this question is simply. Jesus paid the price of the sins of the whole World. All you need to do is believe and you are saved. "God commanded his love towards us,while we are yet sinners,Christ died for us". The day a Man believes the gospel is not the day christ died for him. 1 Like |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by An2elect2(f): 5:54pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
So Jesus didn't die for the sin of unbelief/rejection of Him? |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Nobody: 6:03pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
An2elect2:that is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Read matt12. Ensure you read line upon line precept upon precept. Then refer to John 14 and John 16. Place this scriptures side by side. you will find the work of the Holy Ghost he referred to in Matt12:31. If you have e-sword.check the meaning of the word "blasphemy " used in Matt12:31 lemme hint you sha. The work of the Holy Ghost is to convince/convict the sinner to believe the Gospel. Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will mean to refuse/reject/despise the Gospel. That is the only Sin that cannot be forgiven. unbelief towards the Gospel of Christ. I wish my bible was beside me. SELAH |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by An2elect2(f): 6:05pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
sportsmaster: Jesus did not die for this sin? |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Nobody: 6:17pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
An2elect2:you dint read the scriptures i told you to read, In Matt12:31:- Jesus separated Sin from blasphemy, "but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven" it just like saying "Christ had paid for your sins,All you need to be saved do is believe" and you Now refuse to believe. Your refusal to believe is the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost in that context that will leave you unsaved. Well,Not you sha cuz e be like say you are saved |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 10:42pm On Jun 24, 2015 |
An2elect2:1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." You see, salvation is conditional. Christ died for all men, but not all believe and accept His gift of salvation. Therefore, this answers the dilemma of how Christ died for all men and for his people at the same time! Yes, he died for all men, and salvation is a gift offered to all men, but only those who choose Christ will have salvation. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Ubenedictus(m): 12:48am On Jun 25, 2015 |
I think this is another old topic and I believe you have a good handle on ir. Jesus died for all men, but only some will accept salvation an be saved. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 1:13am On Jun 25, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:thank you my good friend. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by An2elect2(f): 6:46am On Jun 25, 2015 |
malvisguy212: John 1:12-13 King James Version (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Notice those who received Christ were those birthed not by the will or choice of any man but OF GOD. Men whose choices are continuously evil can choose to do good? , "perfect good", "godly good", such as believing in the Son of God? like seriously?? Jeremiah 13:23; King James Bible Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Is belief not a product of faith? yes, and it comes from somewhere which is not anywhere in man. you say?? |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 7:27am On Jun 25, 2015 |
An2elect2:Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. – John 1:12-13 (NIV) Gift is free,you don't work for it because it's a gift, that how salvation is, is a gift to ALL men but not all received it. and the bible say in John 3:16 that Jesus is a gift to the world, we must work to become what we already are. When we place our faith in Christ, we are declared righteous by God. It is a legal declaration that has nothing to do with our actual character. If an angry alcoholic and a pre-school teacher place faith in Christ at the same time, they are both equally righteous in God’s sight, because God declares them to be righteous. But, both the alcoholic and the pre- school teacher must work to become what God has already declared them to be. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by An2elect2(f): 7:45am On Jun 25, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Well you using NIV to get another interpretation of the verses against the KJV, even when the KJV is more accurate...and reliable. The scripture says those who received Christ were born of the Spirit. They received Christ because they were born again. I should ignore this and settle for NIV "wrong interpretation" hehehe epic malvisguy212: Okay, Where does faith unto salvation and righteousness come from? How come one believes and the other does not (for example)? |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 8:01am On Jun 25, 2015 |
An2elect2:I don't use the king James version because the version was translated 400 years ago during the England medieval . Use of this translation is problematic these days, since it uses an archaic version of modern English, which doesn't necessarily mean the same things today as when it was translated over 400 years ago. In addition, the KJV was produced using a limited number of medieval manuscripts that did not represent the earliest Alexandrian set of manuscripts. Salvation ,faith and righteousness are different topics. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by An2elect2(f): 8:18am On Jun 25, 2015 |
malvisguy212: well this is simply not true. Yes there are archaic translations of KJV alongside modern translations that are simple to comprehend and have the same meaning. I don't have any problem undersranding the KJV and so do so many...so i don't see your point. You started talking about working out righteousness, first. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Ubenedictus(m): 4:01pm On Jun 25, 2015 |
An2elect2: hehehe, since when did King Jame become the most accurate translation? I do have a KJV bible but I still don't get the way the new set of churches are turning it into some kind of best bible. It still hardly maters what version u both are using, they both say the same thing. Salvation is a Gift received by faith |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by An2elect2(f): 11:18am On Jun 27, 2015 |
Ubenedictus: We are not saying the same thing sir. He is saying Christ died for every human being, and now it is left for them to accept or reject Him and His finished work. In other words God has made salvation available for every man and only those with some self produced faith can choose to believe and be saved while the rest can keep tasking themselves until they can manufacture enough faith to believe. He and others may not have said it exactly like this but this is what they are saying. I am saying that Christ died not for every man because if he did all men will be saved for salvation was bought by His blood through death for all those chosen in Him. Acts20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. There are so many scriptures that talk about God's chosen people and our redemption secured through the eternal sacrifice of God and not our wills. To say otherwise is to handle God's word ignorantly or treacherously. It is mutually exclusive to believe and teach that God has a peculiar chosen people for salvation and at the same time believe and teach he wants everybody saved. Not possible! No matter how hard men try to hide the doctrine of election, it cannot be hidden. It was expressly taught in the scriptures. If there was election then everybody is not going to be saved. Election means selection, making a choice. And this choice is made by no man or their deeds but God. Believe what you may that is what it is. Romans 9:11-16 King James Version (KJV) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [bSo then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.[/b] We who are believers know men do not produce the faith that is wrought in our hearts unto salvation Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Ubenedictus(m): 9:07pm On Jun 27, 2015 |
An2elect2: this is YOUR interpretation of what they said not what they said. The bolded words have only been used by you. I am saying that Christ died not for every man because if he did all men will be saved for salvation was bought by His blood through death for all those chosen in Him.it seems you are cherrypicking scriptures. Sorry to say but the death of Christ was a covenantal death, you have to accept a covenant if not you are not part of it. You have a wierd idea of salvation. It reeks Calvin. There are so many scriptures that talk about God's chosen people and our redemption secured through the eternal sacrifice of God and not our wills. To say otherwise is to handle God's word ignorantly or treacherously. go back and check your bible the bible actually says "God wish all men to be saved" it is possible becos d bible says so. No matter how hard men try to hide the doctrine of election, it cannot be hidden. It was expressly taught in the scriptures. If there was election then everybody is not going to be saved. Election means selection, making a choice. And this choice is made by no man or their deeds but God. Believe what you may that is what it is. hehehe, the election you teach does not come from scriptures it comes from Calvin. Secondly faith itself is also not a human doing, it is a gift, a grace. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 9:53pm On Jun 27, 2015 |
Ubenedictus:thumb up bro.thank you. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by malvisguy212: 10:46pm On Jun 27, 2015 |
An2elect2:calvanist doctrine you are teaching here,the verse you quote does seem to speak of predestined individuals, but in truth, it is not speaking of individuals, but NATION . Malachi 1:2-5 To this the Lord answers, "Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? YET I LOVE JACOB AND HATED ESAU , and laid HIS MOUNTAIN and his HERITAGE WASTE for the dragons of the WILDERNESS. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished,but we will return and build the DESOLATE places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the BORDER OF ISREAL" The prophet malchi does NOT speak of Jacob and esau as A PERSON,but of their respective posterities(people of the future) . For it was not Esau in person that said, "WE are impoverished;neither were his mountains nor heritage laid waste." Now, if the prophet Malchi speaks neither of the person of the one nor of the person of the other, but of their posterity only, then it is evident that the apostle Paul speaks of them in the same way. Infacte let me quote from the Roman 9:12-13: Romans 9:12, "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger." Romans 9:13, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." LET US ANALYZE THIS: Verse 12 "the elder shall serve the younger" Jacob NEVER did exercise any power over Esau, nor was Esau ever subject to him. Jacob, on the contrary, was rather subject to Esau, and was sorely afraid of him. verse 13 "Jacob have I love and esau have I hate" As I explained before, this verse was talking about NATION and not PERSON. When did esau become a reprobate NATION? This is the message verse 13 is saying: He chose the Jewish people from all others, and revealed himself to them. Thus they were the elect, and all the nations of mankind reprobate. When the fullness of the time came he revealed himself also to the Gentiles, who gladly received the Gospel: and the Jews rejecting it, were cast off. Thus the elect became reprobate, and the reprobate, elect. The Jews, the descendants of Jacob, who rejected the salvation of Christ, became precisely like the Edomites, the descendants of Esau; they builded, but God pulled down; their mountains and heritage are now laid waste for the dragons of the wilderness; and they properly may now be called the border of wickedness, a people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever: they have rejected the Lord that bought them, and so have brought upon themselves swift destruction. Exactly what malchi is saying. Thank you. |
Re: Universal Atonement.did Jesus Died For All Men Or Only For The Believers? by Orunto: 8:28am On Jun 28, 2015 |
He died for all creation. |
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