Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver - Religion (2) - Nairaland
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| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by johnydon22(m): 5:10pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:Lol. . . This is not the first or second time i have lectured you on human morality concept, its not my fault if you can't learn.... 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Delusiongirl20(f): 5:14pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Eddlad: Riddles? |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 5:15pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:tell me when voluntary work involved beating "volunteers" to near death and not being responsible for their deaths if they didn't succumb to their wounds on the first day,or when you can be a "volunteer" forever if your master dashes you a chick...or maybe how the bible describes plainly how to buy people from the heathens around in cases of non-hebrew slaves.. |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Eddlad: 5:16pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20: What riddles? |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 5:17pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:don't be confuse, God is REAL , there's God. Don't believe in this atheists on a faceless forum. |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by harakiri(m): 5:17pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
@op For starters ,its not every atheist that assumes a big bang theory as an explanation for evolution and some really dont care e.g me. In the same vein a lot theists support the "rock and slime" theory (as you put it). Bottom line is atheists have no religious beliefs. Talking about morality, IMO its subjective to what society depicts at the time e.g the bible and koran are filled with so many disturbing commands from the so called "almighty" god that would make the likes of shekau look like saints else how do explain abraham hearing voices (dementia) ordering to sacrifice his only son (first degree murder,aggravated assault,inflicting bodily harm) or how to explain the people of isreal hearing voices (mass dementia) ordering them to maim/kill/slaughter EVERY man,woman and child (genocide,war crimes galore). In today's world such atricoties are not taken lightly yet its acceptable in the "good book" and you see men of fraud making examples of these blood lust fairytales with the mentally depraved church sheeple nodding their thick blocked heads in approval. I dont need to read a book in order to know murder is wrong. Not only is it against the law but all blood shed (in my opinion) is wrong and that includes animals. Nigeria ranks among the top most religious countries in the world(if not the first). Can you lie to yourself and claim Nigeria ranks among the top 50 on the "morality index"? You ought to know better. 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 5:18pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
johnydon22:okay. |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 5:27pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:malvisguy,what law giver told an atheist to go stand-by at a church to protect believers there...god or empathy? |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 5:29pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:this verse is not talking about Hebrew slave: "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished." ( Exodus 21:20) there are rules about slavery in the Bible, those rules exist to protect the slave. Injuring or killing slaves was punishable - up to death of the offending party. Hebrews were commanded not to make their slave work on the Sabbath, slander a slave, have sex with another man's slave, or return an escaped slave. A Hebrew was not to enslave his fellow countryman, even if he owed him money, but was to have him work as a hired worker, and he was to be released in. 7 years or in the year of jubilee (which occurred every 50 years), whichever came first. In fact, the slave owner was encouraged to "pamper his slave". |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 5:33pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Exodus 21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. .  That's the continuation of the verse...it basically says beating a slave to half-death is okay,as long as he doesn't die the first day. |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 5:34pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:read the op again, there is a God's consciousness in every man. |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Delusiongirl20(f): 5:35pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212: I've been following comments both theists and atheists in religion section on Nairaland for some months now, but never care to open an account because of the way the arguments sometimes tends to confuse me (getting attracted to atheist ideas). The confusion i mean is that there seems to be an element of Truth in the way those atheists reasons, especially if i go online and on YouTube to research on most of those things. One thing i know is that i no longer believe in those things despite it has not been easy battling within myself. I have done a lot of researches on this issue. The more i research, the more it seems kinda man-made to me. Am not an Atheist but a free thinker. 3 Likes |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 5:39pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:No,you attribute empathy and altruism that underlines social creatures to be the handiwork of a god.. Even if I give you the benefit of a doubt,a simple question like why we are still changing/modifying our ethics,laws and customs differently flies in the face of a hypothetical "everybody has a law giver in their heads".. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Scholar8200(m): 5:40pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:Kindly prove this. |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 5:44pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:Exodus 21:32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. 21:8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 5:45pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:"If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth." (Exodus 21:26-27) "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." ( Exodus 21:12) However the new covenant indicate God has reconciled us to himself: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ( Galatians 3:28) knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. ( Ephesians 6:  And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. ( Ephesians 6:9) a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. ( Colossians 3:11) Conclusion 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 5:49pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:what's the different between atheists and freethinker ? If you chose to be an atheist, its your choice , God will not override your freewill it is the holy spirit that will convicte you of your wrong doing. Shallom. |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Scholar8200(m): 6:01pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:A ransom was to be paid by the Ox owner in the case of a slave or a free man. I doubt this was so during the slave trade she referred to. The same rods was to be used in child training Proverbs 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. How is this worse than the era referred to by the original inquirer? In fact I find the VS 8 very humane and a respect for the maid even though she was a servant. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by harakiri(m): 6:03pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212: FREETHINKER: Acknowledges the abnormalities and inconsistencies of religion thus in search of truth and enlightenment. ATHEIST: Some (not all) have gone through the free thinker phase and concluded religion is nothing more than man-made hogwash. While telling "delusiongirl" that god will forgive her (for daring to have doubts of spoon fed religious trash), you should go on your knees begging the remaining 49,999 gods of other religions round the world that werent brought to your ancestors during the slave trade era. In retrospect, all your ancestors who died before the slave trading missionaries brought christianity must be rotting in tartarus...er..i mean hell fire coz they never knew the christian god. Thumbs up for a loving god. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 6:06pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:you are wrong, what is wrong has always been wrong, and what is right has always been right. If someone offend us we seek for justice but if we offend others we seek for mercy , as an atheist, is forgiveness important? And why ? |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 6:08pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:So what then justifies killing the ox if a "ransom" is paid? So discipline involves beating to near-death and not being held accountable for death if he sucvumbs to his wounds within a few days? So selling a daughter as a sex slave because of a divine commandment isn't worse than say because you don't know any better? 1 Like |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Scholar8200(m): 6:15pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:The ransom is for the life of the owner of the killer Ox who knew his Ox dangerous tendencies but left it to roam freely Exodus 21:29,30 29 But if the ox had the habit of goring, and its owner was warned, and he did not take the necessary precautions, and then it killed a man or a woman, the ox must be stoned and the man must be put to death. 30 If a ransom is set for him, then he must pay the redemption for his life according to whatever amount was set for him. This law was to cover possible extreme conditions. No where did this happen in scripture. There is nothing to prove your claims here. Notice the words IF and BETROTHED. 1 Like |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 6:15pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:You're yet to prove me wrong...and I don't speak for atheists nor atheism...just myself,and I say forgiveness is tied to disagreements and/or less invasive harm/wrong doing...i can't say if it's important or not without determining the brevity of the offense. |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 6:25pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:So tell me how one determines the dangerous tendencies of an ox? You haven't still told me how that justifies killing an ox,just more bible verses as usual  Yep,because an ox killing a man is more extreme than laws against the slavery that endangered such people in the first place? what claims have I pushed other than what the Bible wrote?...and how does the term "if" disqualifies the situation when it is used for a possible concept... You're finally grasping at straws as a last bait. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by johnydon22(m): 6:31pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:[b]Let us then examine what you mean by forgiveness and what i mean by forgiveness. You offend someone or perpetrate acts that goes against empathy on your fellow humans and then go to your room, kneel down and mumble some words to the ceiling IN JESUS NAME and then come and say you have asked for forgiveness and is forgiven? is that forgiveness to you? I wrong some someone and i go to them and apologize and they forgive me . . .Which exactly is forgiveness ? Buddha once said: Holding On to anger is like holding a hot coal in a bid to throw it at someone else, you will only hurt yourself. . . . . . . . But this still doesn't make forgiveness a Buddhist virtue. Forgiveness is the act of letting anger and malice go, an act of agreement between the offended and the offender. That we forgive is because we need the peace and that is just what is it. Forgiveness is not a buddhist, hindu or christian Virtue, it is a human virtue. We do not need forgiveness from Deities, we only need forgiveness from ourselves and others around us that we have wrong [/b] 2 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Delusiongirl20(f): 6:42pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200: I over exaggerated but is just slavery. An institution or social practice of owning human beings as property, especially for use as forced laborers. A condition in which one is captivated or subjugated. |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Scholar8200(m): 6:44pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:Exodus 21:29,30 29 But if the ox had the habit of goring, and its owner was warned, and he did not take the necessary precautions, and then it killed a man or a woman, the ox must be stoned and the man must be put to death. The Ox had a habit and its owner had been notified by those who witnessed/noticed it. So the Ox got programmed to read labels before attacking!? Or is it that you did not see that it was mentioned that the Ox could wound one who was not a slave?! 'If' shows it is not a command to sell daughters as slaves. An overworked cliche by NL atheists!  |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 6:56pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
davien:someone wrongs me and says "I'm sorry, please forgive me", to me these are two different requests. Yes of course I can accept someone's apology, but who am I to forgive them? The responsibility to deal with the consequences of ones actions both in the physical world as well as in the psychological world, is not mine to take away from someone. I cannot take away what you did to me. It is not my place to say to you, it's ok, I forgive what you did, now you can go on with your life. |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Scholar8200(m): 6:57pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Delusiongirl20:Well, like I said, things evolved to what it is today; there was a starting point. One of the reason/need for slaves then was because of the Agrarian nature of the society. Then there was nothing like mechanised farming and not every body had the wherewithal to engage in large scale farming. If you read through the New testament, although the master-servant relationship was referred to (and that was because the Gentiles eg Romans etc still had slaves), I would say the hopeless, heartless servitude was abolished. Consider Paul writing this to a master concerning his servant: Phil. 1:15,16 15 For perhaps it was for this reason that he was separated from you for a little while, so that you would have him back eternally, 16 no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, as a dear brother. He is especially so to me, and even more so to you now, both humanly speaking and in the Lord. Colossians 4:1 Masters, treat your slaves with justice and fairness, because you know that you also have a master in heaven. This was unthinkable during the comparatively recent slave trade. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 7:01pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
johnydon22:if you want me to listen to you, you will have to respect my belief . |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 7:03pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
Scholar8200:Again,what justifies the death of the bull if a dew has been paid for the crime? If this is your answer to putting slaves in those situations in the first place,then it's blissfully illegible... Good boy,then by your logic once again the verse about the ox being killed and the owner paying isn't a command also but a request since "if" is involved...  But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. You keep chasing your own tail and falling on your own logic buddy... If I had a dollar for every time that happened I'd be a billionaire.. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 7:05pm On Aug 03, 2015 |
malvisguy212:How is it not yours to take when the action is solely towards you....again you keep trying to attribute actions and responsibilities away from the concerned individuals... 2 Likes 1 Share |
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