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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver (9710 Views)
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Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 8:15am On Aug 05, 2015 |
dalaman:so you know the verses was not actually talking about slaves? You guys are the one who bring leviticus 25 first, the context of leviticus 25 was actually talking about the YEAR OF JUBILEE, now my response was from the same book of leviticus and you defence was "the verse was not talking about slavery ? You are NOT qualify to interpret the bible. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by davien(m): 8:20am On Aug 05, 2015 |
malvisguy212:Why?...Because he doesn't use 20 verses to justify a despicable one? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 8:45am On Aug 05, 2015 |
davien:oh!! You think you can understand the WHOLE context with a single verse ? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by dalaman: 9:58am On Aug 05, 2015 |
malvisguy212: And you are qualified in interpreting the Koran? You are a joke. You can't find what you stated written inside the bible. Even the verses you put up have nothing to do with what you are saying. Non of them says that people buy and sell each other because of poverty. Until you provide such a verse do not expect me to take you seriously. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by dalaman: 10:00am On Aug 05, 2015 |
malvisguy212: When Muslims try to explain the Koran for you by trying also to explain things in context you say the are lying. But when clear absurdities are found in the bible you throw 20 verses and claim context. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 10:15am On Aug 05, 2015 |
dalaman:when I argued with muslims is because I was brought up that way,I understand the book. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by dalaman: 10:17am On Aug 05, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Same way, I was a Christian through most of my life, so I also understand the bible very well. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 1:07pm On Aug 05, 2015 |
malvisguy212: |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 8:51am On Aug 09, 2015 |
malvisguy212:. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 10:58am On Aug 10, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Because humans have a moral instinct. Instincts are not Rational things and can be quite divorced from our thoughts and beliefs. For example, We all have a survival instinct. Why? Is survival better than death? Even people living in the most abject state of deprivation will still struggle to survive. Even people who believe in a better life after death will still do everything in their power to avoid death. It can be argued that due to the fact that humans are instinctively moral we then project an image of a Law giver. In other words our instinctive morality is an explanation for why we've invented God rather than the other way of God being an explanation for our morality. The big difficulty lies in the fact that no two cultures, nay, no two people share exactly the same moral code. This might point to a multiplicity of Gods. Otherwise we'd have to explain how a single Law giver would give such a diversity of laws to humankind. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 11:47am On Aug 10, 2015 |
PastorAIO:what about animals ? Are you an atheist? Most atheists believe animals have soul , why can't they make moral decision ? The nazi legalised the killing of the Jews in their camp, will you called this law good ( subjectively) ? |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 12:03pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
malvisguy212: What about Animals?? Animals make choices too, yes. Dogs, for instance, They love to poo everywhere but after some training they only poo in the right place. Of course the dog still feels like pooing but if it is in the house it must make the decision due to it's training to wait until it is taken for a walk before it poos. Is that what you're getting at? Are you an atheist? No! Most atheists believe animals have soul , why can't they make moral decision ? How are you sure that they don't make moral decisions? Do you have any examples of any decisions that are not moral decisions?
Let me answer you with a similar question. The Hebrews committed mass genocide against the Canaanites as recorded in the bible, due to directive from Yahweh. Will you call this directive good? 2 Likes |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 12:25pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
PastorAIO:your excuse is lame and untruthful. The op was talking about morality concerning evil , you and I know dogs steal the bone of others dogs and NO one charge him for evil , animal have intercourse with any of their female animals and no one charge him for rape, why will you charge your fellow human of rape ?I maintain , objective morality proved the existence of God. You say God commit genocide in murdering the cannanite but to you the evil this same cannanite commit is not Genocide, NEVER for once God oder the killing of innocent people. The reason I gave example of the nazi and Jews is because ,if evil is subjective morality, then we cannot blame the nazi for killing the Jews , this proved the existence of God. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 12:28pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
^^^ the only thing an atheist need to do now is to proved"Can Moral Objectivism Do Without God? |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 12:49pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
malvisguy212: I don't recall making any excuses for anything. I was simply answering your questions. The op was talking about morality concerning evil , you and I know dogs steal the bone of others dogs and NO one charge him for evil , animal have intercourse with any of their female animals and no one charge him for rape, why will you charge your fellow human of rape ?I maintain , objective morality proved the existence of God. Genesis 3 The Fall 3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” In this tale, was the serpent, an animal, evil? (Not that I believed the serpents talk, but I'm sure you do.) another consideration: when A dog steals bone or meat will it stand there innocently eating the bone or will it immediately run away and eat it in a hiding place. If the dog has no sense of doing wrong then why is it hiding?
You've confused Legality with Morality. Slavery was once legal but it didn't sit right with some people's sense of morality and so they advocated to get it changed. I have no record of Canaanites committing any evil. Perhaps you can tell me what it is they did. anyway, the bottom line is that according to you it can be okay to commit genocide and not be morally evil. If you cannot blame the Hebrews as evil for killing Canaanites, then how do you want to blame Nazis as evil for killing Jews. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 12:53pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
malvisguy212: I've explained that Morality can be put down to Instinct. Like all instincts if it can be proved to facilitate survival then we can understand how it would evolve. Then Morality can serve also as an explanation for why people would invent a god as you are aptly demonstrating that you have difficulty imagining one without the other. 1 Like |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 2:58pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
PastorAIO:the context of Genesis 3 doesent seems to say the snake started speaking on his own, infacte, if you continue reading the bible, you will come to the understanding that its was satan who possessed the snake. I did not in anyway supported genocide, the people you claimed God kill,are they Morally Equivalent? The dog steal the bone and run because of greed. Let me give you one example : When I trip up, falling is something I am CAUSED to do, not something I am OBLIGED to do! The subjective morality, on the other hand,prescribes (but does NOT cause) actions that I am obligated to do or to refrain from doing. While I never fail to ‘obey’ the ‘law’ of gravity, I often fail to ‘do the right thing’. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 3:05pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
PastorAIO:do you believe people just invent a "God"?"A command only makes sense when there are two minds involved, one giving the command and one receiving it." If an objective moral law has the property of being a command that we receive, then there must be an objective, PERSONAL, moral commander beyond individual or collective humanity. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 3:09pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
PastorAio. Let me repeat my question. Are you a christian? Do you believe God exist ?" The prescence of evil indicate God exist" do you agree ? |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 3:16pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
malvisguy212: So do you agree or not when the bible says that the serpent is crafty. More crafty than any other animal that God made. How much of an influence did this craftiness have on the serpents speech.
I didn't claim God killed anyone, I claimed that the Bible says that God instructed the Hebrew to commit genocide on the Canaanites. If this claim is wrong and the bible didn't say such a thing then I was wrong and I apologise, although I'm sure that that is precisely what the bible says. I don't know what you mean by 'Morally equivalent'. Do you mean that killing Canaanites is not morally equivalent to killing Jews? Are you saying that Greed is Morally okay? A greedy dog steals a bone and that is morally okay, but a greedy human steals and that is a morally wrong deed?
[quote] What is the above an example of? I know the different between Laws of nature and Moral Laws, but I don't see what this has to do with what we are discussing. 1 Like |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 3:21pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Yes, I believe that many people have invented their 'God'. Command: What about the command that you give to a Computer? What about all the commands that you give to yourself? When you want to lose weight and you put yourself on a diet, have you not commanded yourself to only eat so much and at set times? Again, having a moral Law (objective or not) doesn't necessarily have anything to do with any Law giver. 1 Like |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 3:24pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Yes, I'm a theist. The word christian means nothing to me, but I'm a theist. I do not agree that the presence of evil indicates that a god exists. If anything it actually casts doubt on the existence of God if indeed such a god is omnipotent. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 4:35pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
PastorAIO:https://www.nairaland.com/2294808/why-evil-disproves-atheism The existence of evil actually establishes the existence of God. To explain why, we need to go back to Augustine who puzzled over the following argument: 1. God created all things. 2. Evil is a thing. 3. Therefore, God created evil. How could a good God create evil? If those first two premises are true, He did, and this is a God problem. So God must not be good after all. But then Augustine realized that the second premise is not true. While evil is real, it's not a "thing." Evil doesn't exist on its own. It only exists as a lack or a deficiency in a good thing. Evil is like rust in a car: If you take all of the rust out of a car, you have a better car; if you take the car out of the rust, you have nothing. g. In other words, evil only makes sense against the backdrop of good. That's why we often describe evil as negations of good things. We say someone is immoral, unjust, unfair, dishonest, etc. We could put it this way: The shadows prove the sunshine. There can be sunshine without shadows, but there can't be shadows without sunshine. In other words, there can be good without evil, but there can't be evil without good. So evil can't exist unless good exists. But good can't exist unless God exists. In other words, there can be no objective evil unless there is objective good, and there can be no objective good unless God exists. If evil is real as the recent headlines from France plainly reveal then God exists. The best evil can do is show there's a devil out there, but it can't disprove God. The very existence of evil boomerangs back to show that God exists. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 4:44pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
PastorAIO:If there is no single moral authority [i.e. no God] we have to in some sense 'create' values for ourselves ... and that means that moral claims are not true or false… you may disagree with me but you cannot say I have made an error. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 4:55pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
malvisguy212: This one is more than circular, it loops and dives and 'boomerangs' upon itself in a variety of ways. 1) From the very start, you have God right there in the premises. 'God created everything'. 2) Why bother with the evil part. why not just say, God created Good and there are good things in the world so therefore God exists. The evil part is an extra appendage. 3) Evil is not a thing, and neither is Good. It is a functional state of things. Both are. A knife chopping vegetables for dinner is good for the diners. a knife stuck in someone's gut is evil. Good and evil functions can be found for just about any object. None of these suggest the existence of God in the slightest. 4)The idea of evil as a lack of deficiency of good is Rubbish. when a knife is slicing your guts nothing in the knife is deficient. The knife remains intact. Rather Good and Evil are interwoven like Yin and Yang. They are two sides of a single coin. You cannot say one side is based on the other side. The nonexistence of one is also the nonexistence of the other. There is no such thing as UP if there is no such thing as DOWN. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 5:02pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
malvisguy212: You have made an error. Nobody 'creates' moral values for themselves. Morality is instinctive. You don't create sexual desire, it is an instinct. when you see a fine woman there is no contrivance involved in the raising of your phallus. It happens automatically. Now that is probably a great example because just as there are a multiplicity of moral codes there also a variety of sexual types. Some phallus' raise for fat girls, some raise for short girls, others raise for chanel perfume, while others raise only for oyinbo. There is no single standard of a sexually alluring person. Sexuality develops along various lines in different people. So it is with Morality. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 5:25pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
PastorAIO:am busy now, I will reply you later ,God willing. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 7:24pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
PastorAIO:yes you are right, no other way to put it than to insert the word 'create" that why I say in some way. For when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEART , THEIR CONSCIENCE BEARING WITNESS therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them… Romans 2:14-15,. The Gentiles did the things required by God’s law, not because they had received any specific written code, as the Jews had, but because there exists an ABSOLUTE system of morals and ethics. God established this system, which has continued from the Creation until now. God’s absolutes cannot be superceded by man’s will without drastic consequences, as the world around us bears witness. This same principle of moral absoluteness is see in scripture, because the Bible contains definite teachings that are not open to man’s personal feeling and interpretation: And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of PRIVATE interpretation . For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:19-21, When God speaks, it is not for man to interpret via his own feelings what God has said. There is an absolute system of teaching, just as there is an absolute set of morals, both are defined by God. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 7:58pm On Aug 10, 2015 |
Are you now agreeing with me because you've thought about what I've said and recognised it to be true? Or are now agreeing because you've found a passage in the bible that concurs with me and you let the bible do your thinking for you? Yes, the gentiles had Morals. Yes, a great deal of the time their morals concurred with those of the Jews. But they also did many things that they felt were morally right however were considered immoral by the Jews. And they also found many things morally abhorrent that the Jews did due to their Moral Law. For example, they found circumcision barbaric. So you see that we are all automatically Moral creatures. The next phase is to understand how and why we are moral and to ascertain whether it really absolutely means that there must be a moral law giver. malvisguy212: |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 10:04pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Now to put the lie to that unorthodoxy that Paul wrote.... It would seem that God favoured the Gentiles more than the Jews in regard to this his moral law. Why? Well he said this to them through Jeremiah: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. So the gentiles had the law of God written on their hearts which the Jews didn't so they had to be given the written code and only promised the one written on the heart later. Why would God deprive his own people so? Unless someone is BS-ing us. Either Jeremiah or Paul. Or maybe the Jews were so morally depraved that they didn't have access to the law on their hearts and so needed to get it in written form first. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 10:09pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Don't worry about this part it seems that you are really busy attacking Muslims and anyway this part hasn't got anything to do with the main bone of contention which is morality not whether the existence of evil supports God or not. If how to answer this is what is keeping you away, please don't worry, come back lets continue to discuss morality. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 11:04pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
PastorAIO:this may sound embarrassing to you, but seriously, you still need to read the bible with open mind. The verse you quote (Jeremiah) actually indicate the law is written in the heart of the Jews. Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will establish with the PEOPLE OF ISREAL after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their MIND and write them on their HEART. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Galatian3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus . |
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