Scholar8200:
Well, like I said, things evolved to what it is today; there was a starting point. One of the reason/need for slaves then was because of the Agrarian nature of the society. Then there was nothing like mechanised farming and not every body had the wherewithal to engage in large scale farming. If you read through the New testament, although the master-servant relationship was referred to (and that was because the Gentiles eg Romans etc still had slaves), I would say the hopeless, heartless servitude was abolished. Consider Paul writing this to a master concerning his servant:
Phil. 1:15,16
15 For perhaps it was for this reason that he was separated from you for a little while, so that you would have him back eternally, 16 no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, as a dear brother. He is especially so to me, and even more so to you now, both humanly speaking and in the Lord.

Colossians 4:1
Masters, treat your slaves with justice and fairness, because you know that you also have a master in heaven.

This was unthinkable during the comparatively recent slave trade.

davien:
Again,what justifies the death of the bull if a few has been paid for the crime?

If this is your answer to putting slaves in those situations in the first place,then it's blissfully illegible...

Good boy,then by your logic once again the verse about the ox being killed and the owner paying isn't a command also but a request

But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

You keep chasing your own tail and falling on your own logic buddy... If I had a dollar for every time that happened I'd be a billionaire..

johnydon22:
When someone say religious tilt blinds people's sense of reason and judgement, you can simply come to this thread and see it first hand. .

[size=16]
Someone cannot just say; Slavery is wrong in what ever form it may appear..
[/size]

davien:
How is it not yours to take when the action is solely towards you....again you keep trying to attribute actions and responsibilities away from the concerned individuals...

malvisguy212:
I cannot take away what you did to me. You are a kind person right? Meaning you agree people make mistake and you accepts their apology,but being a kind person doesn't mean I should take away their responsibility to deal with their mistakes.forget about atheism for now and reason with me.

Delusiongirl20:



That's what i am telling him, there is no way he can twist slavery as represented in the bible to justify that god didn't support the act and still gave directives on how to manage it

Delusiongirl20:



That's what i am telling him, there is no way he can twist slavery as represented in the bible to justify that god didn't support the act and still gave directives on how to manage it

davien:
Explain vividly...

Scholar8200:
[size=14pt]The ransom is for the life of the owner of the killer Ox[/size] who knew his Ox dangerous tendencies but left it to roam freely
Exodus 21:29,30
29 But if the ox had the habit of goring, and its owner was warned, and he did not take the necessary precautions, and then it killed a man or a woman, the ox must be stoned and the man must be put to death.
30 If a ransom is set for him, then he must pay the redemption for his life according to whatever amount was set for him.

But how do you 'correct' that habit for the Ox?

So, was this referring to a slave? Exodus 21:28 You still sound as though the Ox will gore only slaves!!! [quote] what else would I be talking about when the verse is about slaves

So say your justifications for putting slaves in that ordeal in the first place...

[quote]
Your premise for that conclusion is faulty; where is the IF that justify your claim? Seems you don't understand that statement!

author=Scholar8200 post=36570770]
Exodus 21:29,30

29 But if the ox had the habit of goring, and its owner was warned, and he did not take the necessary precautions, and then it killed a man or a woman, the ox must be stoned and the man must be put to death.

'If' shows it is not a command

Oh good, you finally got another soon to be overworked cliche!

malvisguy212:
ok, let me not involved anyone here, will you find it easy to forgive yourself for all the evil you commit ?

malvisguy212:
God himself has already fullfiled his promises to us , in the old testament we see a God of justice who is ready to even punished his children if the violate his moral law , but after the reconciliation everything end their.

davien:
I make amends and move on..

malvisguy212:
I know you will not be sincere, anyway, let it sealed in your heart, I've seen many people who find it difficult to even forgive themselves for the wrong they commit ,I've don many bad things in my life that I find its hard to forgive myself, but ever since I make peace with God, I've been doing great.

Delusiongirl20:


You are missing it somewhere. There is god that are morally upright, that commands our moral obligations, he directs our do-and-donts, how we interact within ourselves. He suppose to command them not do so and and to stop since they are already doing it.

You arecdoing all these to divert attentions. To be sincere with you.

I have my brain

Delusiongirl20:



Where is the reconciliation or are you trying to replace change to reconciliation so as to sound paradoxical.

Scholar8200:
At a time when technology was very primitive (unlike today), the need for human capital was very high; productive activities were largely labour-intensive; most times, slaves were required only for economic activities (agriculture, building etc). In fact, those who were poor gave themselves out as slaves to get a benefit eg Jacob, Egyptians to Pharaoh Genesis 47:25,26 etc Hence thew law given was to guide how they were to relate with them given the reality that was obtainable then. An abrupt halt to the practise will mean that, in some cases, the slaves will be worst hit.

davien:
How am I insincere by saying I make amends?..

malvisguy212:
a man who has a rebellion son but because he love this son will do anything to reconciled himself with the son, the children of isreal are like a sons to God and because of their always disobedient to God , God always punished them just as a father will punished his sons for the mistake the do.

God created adam and adam disobeyed God. That is were the separation started. But because God love us unconditional he provide a way in which man will reconcile with him.
2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to
himself in Christ, not counting people's
sins against them. And he has committed
to us the message of reconciliation.

After the reconciliation, God will not count our formal sin, we begin a new chapter with him:

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord
will never count against them."

1 Corinthians 13:5
It does not dishonor others, it is not self- seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Delusiongirl20:



this is the kind of argument that do makes me to dislike all these Christian apologists trying too hard to find reasons to cover up vivid argument.

Delusiongirl20:



this is the kind of argument that do makes me to dislike all these Christian apologists trying too hard to find reasons to cover up vivid argument.

johnydon22:
It is very clear for all to see my dear. . . Slavery is wrong and that is it, maybe you need a microscope to see where the bible says.
"Don't enslave another" But No in the bible "You can even sell your own daughter to another" and its ok.
When people lack all independent reason that they cannot bluntly say this is wrong even at the detriment of their beliefs, we all can see religion mars humans.
This express biased tilt from the Christians when faced with the idea of slavery that they cannot just condemn it in whatever form it comes but rather fights tooth and nail to justify it even when it is clear that it is wrong, kills the topic intoto because they just showed that morality as it is, is subjective..
Like i told the Op, am not supposed to keep lecturing him on human morality while he repeats the same childish argument over and over again!!!

dalaman:



Dishonest arguments from people like Malvisguy212 and Scholar8200 is part of the reason rational people will keep leaving christianity. They really need to be ashamed of themselves.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

The bible very clearly has it's God telling people how to buy slaves and pass them as inheritance because they are property. To show that God knew it was bad he told them not to treat their relatives or the people of Israel in the same manner.

The morality of most people alive today definitely did not come from this sadistic moral giver. Assuming that there is a moral giver anywhere.

malvisguy212:
honestly , you guys are missing the points, let try this way:

What is slave in this context ?"Slaves" in this context are debtors (mortgage holders, for instance), employees, and tax payers. We still have slavery. You are probably a slave unless you are an entrepreneur with no debt.

dalaman:


Why do you like lying shamelessly? Let me put it again.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)


Please tell, where does it state that the slaves are debtors? It clearly states that you may purchase slaves? Are you trying to say it means you may purchase debtors? What the hell is wrong with you guys? don't you have any shame? Christian altaquiya.

Lying to cover God's asss is not a sin bro

am not sure he even read your post before copying and pasting a reply because if he did he wouldn't have shamelessly mustered up such obvious stupendous and clear lie as a defence.

Most times i really just feel shame for these guys when i see these clear lies and mumuish defence busted like this.

Makes me wonder if religion rids people of their wits

johnydon22:
Lying to cover God's asss is not a sin bro

am not sure he even read your post before copying and pasting a reply because if he did he wouldn't have shamelessly mustered up such obvious stupendous and clear lie as a defence.

Most times i really just feel shame for these guys when i see these clear lies and mumuish defence busted like this.

Makes me wonder if religion rids people of their wits

dalaman:


Why do you like lying shamelessly? Let me put it again.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)


Please tell, where does it state that the slaves are debtors? It clearly states that you may purchase slaves. Are you trying to say it means you may purchase debtors? What the hell is wrong with you guys? don't you have any shame? Christian altaquiya.

dalaman:


Why do you like lying shamelessly? Let me put it again.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)


Please tell, where does it state that the slaves are debtors? It clearly states that you may purchase slaves. Are you trying to say it means you may purchase debtors? What the hell is wrong with you guys? don't you have any shame? Christian altaquiya.

malvisguy212:
again, read my post once again, I do not deny slavery in the bible,what I say is this" slavery in the bible is different from slavery practice in the 17th century" do your research.

Back in the days of Leviticus slavery was
sanctioned due to economic reasons.
Back then, there were no such thing as
bankruptcy laws so people would sell
themselves into slavery to rectify debts.

From the Old Testament:

“Whoever kidnaps someone, either to
sell him or to keep him as a slave is to
be put to death.” – Exodus 21:16

From the New Testament:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
neither slave nor free, there is neither
male nor female – for all of you are one
in Christ Jesus. –Galatians 3:28

Do these two verses sound like condoning slavery?

Israel was prohibited from territorial
gains beyond what Yahweh had
promised to Abraham (Deuteronomy
2:1-23). Moreover, Israel was prohibited
the practice of “forced slavery” as seen
in Exodus 21:16, “Whoever kidnaps
someone, either to sell him or to keep
him as a slave, is to be put to death.”
In another passage Moses declares, “If
any of you kidnap Israelites and make
them your slaves or sell them into
slavery, you are to be put to death. In
this way your nation will get rid of this
evil” – Deuteronomy 24:7. In the first
one, there is a general prohibition
against slavery of anyone and in the
second, a specific order against slavery of Israelites.

Voluntary slavery is a completely
different situation. Voluntary slavery
arises when a person becomes so poor
that they cannot make a living, cannot
provide for themselves, and sell
themselves into a relationship with a
person who has money and can provide
for the poor person. The Hebrew word
for this is “ebed.” meaning servant, or
bondman. The Bible describes Israel as
the Lord’s bondservant, or slave, the
same word ebed.

“If any Israelites living near you become SO POOR that THEY SELL THEMSELVES to you as a slave, you shall not make them do the work of a slave. They shall stay with you as hired workers and serve you until the next Year of Restoration.” – Leviticus 25:39-40

The issue of poverty was one of the
reasons that people sold themselves as
servants. There were also provisions for
freedom. They could be bought back by a relative, or by their own money. Working for someone else did not mean that they received nothing.“By their own
money” meant a certain freedom to gain money and buy their own freedom.

We have no reason to believe that the
same was not true for the foreigners in
the land. The verse says, “Purchase the
children of such resident foreigners,
including those who have been born in
your land,” (Leviticus 25:44) and these
were probably people like the Hebrews
who fell on hard times and were poor.
Being a servant in another household
was better than starving. The rights are
spelled out for the Hebrews but they
would also apply to the foreigners who
were welcomed into the land. The people were commanded: “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner; remember that you were foreigners in Egypt. Do not mistreat any widow or orphan.” – Exodus 22:21-22
“Suppose a foreigner living with you
becomes rich, while some Israelites
become poor and SELL THEMSELVES AS
SLAVES to that foreigner or to a member of that foreigner’s family.

After they are sold, they still have the
right to be bought back. A brother or an
uncle or a cousin or another close
relative may buy them back; or if they
themselves earn enough, they may buy
their own freedom. They must consult
the one who bought them, and they
must count the years from the time they
sold themselves until the next Year of
Restoration and must set the price for
their release on the basis of the wages
paid hired workers. They must refund a
part of the purchase price according to
the number of years left, as if they had
been hired on an annual basis. Their
master must not treat them harshly. If
they are not set free in any of these
ways, they and their children must be
set free in the next Year of Restoration.
Israelites cannot be permanent slaves,
because the people of Israel are the
LORD’s slaves. He brought them out of
Egypt; he is the LORD their God. –
Leviticus 25:47-55

The central issue here is that slavery
was initiated BY the slave, NOT by the
owners, DEFINITELY not by forced.

Delusiongirl20:



All these faking and twisting is the major reasons i left Christianity. Trying to justify the unjustifiable.

Delusiongirl20:



All these faking and twisting is the major reasons i left Christianity. Trying to justify the unjustifiable.