joseph1013:


Who is the designer?

LeeCodeman:


LOL...Intelligent design that has been thrashed and put in the bin by experts. *goes back to observation mode*

NumberOne2:


Me

Let look at this the Scientific way. Hypothesis are made to understand certain phenoms in nature.
Big bang was proposed as the basis for the Universe. Work is being done to prove or debunk it. Till then, it is widely accepted. Not as the truth, but a work in progress.

Now same logic to intelligent design. If a man said an invisible artist caused it or he said his grandfather did it. What stops us from working with that till it is proved or debunked?

This is why the debate between Theist and Atheist will continue till the next generation. No one can debunk the other but each one thinks their logic is better.

Like I said before, you cannot debunk a percieved falsehood with another. Its a waste of time, See how long this thread is but yet none can prove or disprove God. Does that not ring a bell? Look online, its a mess of inconclusive materials.

You posted an almost 2 hours video on US legal issues? I laugh (dont have the time to watch now perhaps later). Unless that video tells me how come the Earth spins so fast (and I am not dizzy) or the origins of life, there is not point. I keep telling you that Atheism doesn't provide answers, it just asks more questions. Well, questions are allowed: Seek and you shall find. Keep seeking.

PS: Where intelligent designer proponents missed it is attributing the design to God. All they had to do was leave it blank. Let everyone seek the designer themselves. It is not for man to prove God (He cant). He doesn't need our help. Salvation is not of works

NumberOne2:


Intelligent Design cannot be trashed cos it is evident EVEN BY SCIENCE. What was trashed is attributing it to God. These are 2 different things.

Example: Man an intelligent being exists. If I say God made man. This can be seen as an unscientific statement as you will have to explain who God is (which man can't explain cos God so designed it). This doesnt remove the fact that man is intelligently made by an UNKNOWN designer. Get the difference?

joseph1013:


I see you want to eat your cake and have it. You are a Christian who believes in Yahweh yet you are not bold enough to arrogate to him the design of the world? [b]How shameful!

If you dont have the time to watch the clip, I have no time to engage your circular argument.[/b]

NumberOne2:


Dude nothing shameful. You asked for evidence. I gave you ID. You come back to ask who is the designer.
This is the scenerio:
Who is the Designer? God
Who is God? Then we can start a whole thread on that. Nah, time is precious.

Atheist get frustrated when arguments become circular (I have told you before that not all Christians conclude that GOD DID IT). I am not a fanatic (my God is bigger than yours type). That is NOT the Gospel. You were a Pastor, you should know what the Gospel is. Arguments don't get folks saved, it is ONLY GOD that does. You expect me to defend God? Who am I to do that? Is He not more (in wisdom and stature) than myself? He can defend Himself.

Dude, Salvation is not of works. [That is where Intelligent Design supporters missed it]. No one can argue Salvation. It is God that convinces by the Spirit when the Gospel is shared.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

Cheers

joseph1013:
MY TOP 10 OLD TESTAMENT CONTRADICTIONS:

(10) GOD LIED TO MOSES
EX 6:2 KJV. And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
EX 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Now let us go back to the book of Genesis 22:14 {KJV} & see if any of Moses’ fore-fathers knew the name of God as “JEHOVAH.”
GEN 22:14{ KJV} And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh (i.e. God will provide) as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

As you can see, someone is definitely lying, because Abraham knew the name “Jehovah” long before Moses was placed in the Nile River (see Ex 2:1-3). I know that the hypocrite is not their Almighty God. At least I hope not.


There you have it: Even though there are hundreds of contradictions in the Old Testament those are my top ten.

joseph1013:

(NOTE: The name JEHOVAH has been removed from Exodus in some of the most recently updated editions of the Bible, this was done so as to try & rectify this major blunder committed by either God or one of his inspired writers).

NumberOne2:


Well, you may want to read that in other bible versions like AMP then come back and tell me what you learnt.
As for the others (1 - 9) interesting list. However, I barely see as errors in Historical documentation which goes further to confirm that the various events DID HAPPEN. They have little to do with the Sovereignty of God.

Example:
I spent close to 5k at the market yesterday.
I spent 4k at the market yesterday.
The amount spent matters little except to an Accountant. However, we can establish that I spent money at the market yesterday.

[b]I thought you said God can defend himself. Why are you here defending his scriptures?

The difference between your example and the Bible is that the Bible gave specific figures, you didnt (you said CLOSE to 5k). The Bible said 420 talents in one part and said 450 in another. The Bible said 550 officers in one part and said 250 in another part. The Bible said 22 years in one part and said 42 in another part. Pray tell, how did your god round up 22 to become 42. And still did not say CLOSE to 42 or ABOUT 42. Quit the rationalization, dude.

It's interesting that you bring up the AMPLIFIED version. Again, the inspiration of God comes to the fore. How does he make the Bible so ambiguous that the translators have to have such a hard time translating and thus having something accurately done in one translation. If the KJV is wrong in this aspect, how many more errors is contained therein?

But being the fundamentalist that you are, you dont even know that the reason there are differences in translations is because the original manuscripts of these texts are lost. So what they have are tens of thousands of manuscripts (which are different from one another) and translators always have a hard time reconciling the differences. Are you aware of that?

Are you aware that Moses could not have written the whole 5 books attributed to him? Are you aware that none of the gospels was written by a disciple of Jesus? Are you aware that there is a gospel according to St. Peter that has been hidden from you? Are you aware that the first gospel, Mark, was written more than 70 years after Jesus had died and it was written by someone who had not had an encounter with Jesus but was merely writing down what people have heard from others who claim they had encounters with people who had encounters with Jesus? Are you aware that this is true for Matthew, Luke and John as well?

Do you know these things? [/b]

REMOVED? Perhaps proper translations were made and the context better understood than the Old KJV.


Now let me correct a misconception. The bible contains words of Man, Devil and God. It also has narration of events.
When Jesus said "Heaven and Earth will pass but my word will not pass". This did not include a narration like "As Jesus went to Jericho" should also not pass away cos its in the bible. A simple understanding of English context will help.

joseph1013:
PastorAIO, have you seen Darren Brown's THE EXPERIMENTS? If you've not, please take a look. They are on YouTube.

If yes, what are your thoughts?

joseph1013:


I thought you said God can defend himself. Why are you here defending his scriptures?

joseph1013:

Then you nullify 1 Tim 3:16. Since you like AMPLIFIED version, let me serve it to you:

EVERY Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration).

In the schools you attended, did you learn that EVERY means some, or part of? EVERY means EVERY. Scriptures say EVERY thing you see in the Bible is from the inspiration of God. It means that even what the devil said is inspired by God. Hahaha . You dont have to take my word for it. Check your Bible.

If you desire to turn the English language upside down, it's your call.

NumberOne2:


Not defending, correcting your errors. If I was defending, I would have used scriptures. I didn't.

You seem to be making more errors:

God made man, man made guns. Guns kills people. Therefore God killed people?
Since God made man. Hitler was a man who killed 7 million people, I guess God DID IT?

Look, the bible or any other material for that matter is written with CONTEXT.
She broke my heart doesn't mean my heart was taken out of my chest and broken to pieces.

Learn to balance things else SIMPLE Scriptural stuff become English debates.
Jesus said turn the other cheek doesn't means ALWAYS turn your cheek when slapped. It simply means do not revenge.

Comprehende?

joseph1013:
[b]Is there any Christian in the House? I was discussing with someone today about suffering and why God (if he exists) allows it. He gave me alot of answers and one of them struck me. He said God does what he likes and no one should question him.

I showed him this and asked him if this was right

Amos 4:6-13New International Version (NIV)

6 “I gave you empty stomachs in every city
and lack of bread in every town,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

7 “I also withheld rain from you
when the harvest was still three months away.
I sent rain on one town,
but withheld it from another.
One field had rain;
another had none and dried up.

8 People staggered from town to town for water
but did not get enough to drink,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

9 “Many times I struck your gardens and vineyards,
destroying them with blight and mildew.
Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

10 “I sent plagues among you
as I did to Egypt.
I killed your young men with the sword,
along with your captured horses.
I filled your nostrils with the stench of your camps,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

11 “I overthrew some of you
as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire,
yet you have not returned to me,”
declares the Lord.

12 “Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel,
and because I will do this to you, Israel,
prepare to meet your God.”

You know, this accurately depicts a wicked, psychopathic and vengeful personality. If a human does this, the world would be in uproar with condemnation. But a God can be said to have done it and believers will say he is free to do what he wants. Why should that be?

For those who says that God has changed. That the New Testament God is different from the Old Testament God, here is the problem:

Do you excuse a man who has caused untold hardship on people just because of an appearance of goodness? Do you erase the faults of a person who feels no remorse for doing horrendous deeds in the past simply because he is said to have done a few miracles today?

You decide![/b]

rabzy:


You may need to check the contractual agreement between the israelites and God that was brokered by Moses.

joseph1013:


Okay. Let me get this straight. If I have a contractual agreement with you and you failed in your obligations, I have the right to starve you, to withhold rain from you, to kill your children, to even plan your death?

That should be justified with God? And you use love and that God in the same sentence?

Cmon bro. Could it be true that a bad man will do bad things, good man will do good things but it only takes religion for a good man to do bad things and not feel remorse?

You defend such barbaric human rights violation because it was done by God?

joseph1013:


Okay. Let me get this straight. If I have a contractual agreement with you and you failed in your obligations, I have the right to starve you, to withhold rain from you, to kill your children, to even plan your death?

You defend such barbaric human rights violation because it was done by God?

rabzy:


if i planted a farm, i have the right to cut its seed and use it the way i deem fit, if i rear some chickens or livestock i can use it to feed or cloth myself. I can even go into the forest and hunt a big game probably a female deer and leave its offspring to starve, but i would not see myself as barbaric (though it is barbaric to vegans and other people who are advocating for total and full animal rights).

When an animal is ravaging our crops or killing people to feed itself such animals are killed, we never see it as barbaric. So if a Supreme being, who claims to be our creator also decides to kill us because of going against his rules, it would be hard to see it as barbaric

joseph1013:
[b]

Let's treat what you brought up before veering off. The analogies you have used do not fit what you brought up.

You said the reason God could do what he did to them is because they had a contract. Do you have a contract with your farm? What did you promise to offer your farm if it complies? Hey, the reason you have a farm is not because you love the farm. You have the farm because you love yourself.

You said we do not see as barbaric when animals do what animals do best. Of course! There is no agreement between any two animals on what to do with each other.

Let's not do apples to oranges comparison here. If you have a contractual agreement with your son to help him if he does good and to starve, kill and torture him if he does bad, you are a bad father. There are no two ways to spin this.

If the Almighty who is all-knowing does not know that these people will go against the said contract when he had it, then how is he the Almighty?

A simple example will do: If you have the ability to know tomorrow and you have a son whom as a result of your ability know that he is going to steal things from a neighbor, and yet go ahead to say you will starve and kill him WHEN he does, what kind of father are you?

If God knows the Israelites will do bad things and he is powerful enough to stop them from doing it, yet does nothing, and still goes ahead to punish them , how loving is that?

It's high time we used simple logic we use with fellow humans on God.[/b]

rabzy:


Now what is the reason for which God created man. The Bible said the soul that sins it will die. God told Adam if you cease to obey me, you will die. So God created man for a purpose and when he no longer fits that purpose or fulfill the purpose, he is not fit to live. Just like the farmer and farm analogy. The Bible used similar analogy

Despite repeated warnings and pleadings, the nation of Israel refused to yield and they kept killing the prophets sent to them. God allowed hundreds of years before he actually punished the nation of Israel severely for their actions. They cannot expect to have Gods favour and help and then choose to ignore him as their God and King. Even a human father would not continue to indulge a disobedient child without meting out appropriate punishment.

Then also about his all-knowing abilities, there is no doubt that God can know whatever he chooses to know. But do you know if he chooses to know all things. With my radio i can tune into many stations and listen to varieties of broadcasts, but having a radio does not mean i do that. Personally its been years i tuned on the radio in the house.
Specific statements in the Bible indicates that God does not use that his fore-knowing power always or that he likely rarely uses it to give humans the freedom of choice.

joseph1013:


[b]Which is exactly my point. There is a term in Aramaic used to refer to God in the New Testament. It's the Word "Abba". It means DEAR FATHER. It is a most dear word that encapsulates the selflessness with which a Jewish father is supposed to relate with his son. You should read up about the obligations of a Jewish father to his children and juxtapose it with what you have written here.

What you have written there can NEVER be called a loving relationship. It is a tit for tat in which one party makes all the rules. Do this for me, I will do this for you. If you dont do this for me, I will starve you, torture you, kill you and even your generations unborn will suffer because of it. How exactly is that a loving relationship? It betrays God as a vengeful, wicked, immoral, vindictive, acrimonious psychopath who does with us what he wants depending on which side of the bed he wakes up with.

That he is powerful and does not come in to help those children in South Sudan is grave enough, now you add to it that he can even make those children suffer like they are doing in that war-torn region simply because of what their parents had done? Makes me puke! Makes me sick to the stomach!![/b]



How do you know he knows all things but chooses not to know some things? That's a new one. Never heard that interpretation before. You mean he knows Boko Haram will hit a defenceless village in Yobe State and he decides not to know? I've not heard this before mehn.

joseph1013:



That he is powerful and does not come in to help those children in South Sudan is grave enough, now you add to it that he can even make those children suffer like they are doing in that war-torn region simply because of what their parents had done? Makes me puke! Makes me sick to the stomach!!

How do you know he knows all things but chooses not to know some things? That's a new one. Never heard that interpretation before. You mean he knows Boko Haram will hit a defenceless village in Yobe State and he decides not to know? I've not heard this before mehn.

joseph1013:





[color=#550000][b]How do you know he knows all things but chooses not to know some things? That's a new one. Never heard that interpretation before. You mean he knows Boko Haram will hit a defenceless village in Yobe State and he decides not to know? I've not heard this before mehn.

rabzy:


If a class teacher told his students that you will fail if you don't read and probably end up as poor, the student refused to read and then the teacher passed all of them. How will the student know the wages of laziness is failure.
God said if you seek out your own ways it will lead to disaster, he said man will dominate man to his own injury. Then when we seek out our own ways and oppresss ourselves and we now expect God to come to our rescue at every corner. How will we know that he was actually right in the first place. He would automatically become a lier.

He has said he has the powers to resurrect and that he would restore all things to be a paradise in which all wicked men all those who ruin the earth will be destroyed. You dont want him to kill people who are wicked but you are talking about boko haram and starving kids. When he said he would destroy such men in the Bible, you said he is vengeful. So what do you want him to do to bokoharam, to just switch them from bad people to good people.
The fate of bokoharam and such-like ones is eternal death and for those innocent kids, there is a chance to live again under perfect conditions.

rabzy:


I said he can know anything he wants to know, but that does not mean he choose to know everything there is to know....understand the idea. Anybody that can see where bokoharam or do a surveilance on them will know when they want to hit a village. What i mean is that, can God know what i will do on the 15th of march 2035, YES. But does he pry into it and know what i will do...now that is different issue entirely....That a Man can beat a whole village does not mean he will beat the whole village, that a telecom company can track everyone using their sim does not mean they actually track everyone that uses their sim.