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Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 11:20pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
PastorAIO:there can't be Good without evil, the both must exist for man to have option to reject God. We cannot say God is the caused of evil ,That language is certainly problematic, since we usually associate cause with blame. The very transcendence of God plays a significant role in biblical responses to the problem of evil. Because God is who he is, the covenant Lord, he is not required to defend himself against charges of injustice. He is the judge, not we. Very often in Scripture, when something happens that calls God’s goodness in question, God pointedly refrains from explaining. Indeed, he often rebukes those human beings who question him. Job demanded an interview with God, so that he could ask God the reasons for his sufferings (job 23:1-7, 31:35-37). But when he met God,God asked the questions: “Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me” (38:3). The questions mostly revealed Job’s IGNORANCE about God’s creation: if Job doesn’t understand the ways of the animals, how can he presume to call God’s motives in question? He doesn’t even understand earthly things; how can he presume to debate heavenly things?God is not subject to the ignorant evaluations of his creatures. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by mustymatic(m): 11:40pm On Aug 11, 2015 |
johnydon22:Yeah that's right. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 12:42am On Aug 12, 2015 |
malvisguy212: No, Actually it is a promise that one day it will be written on their hearts. Paul on the other hand admits that the Gentiles have always had the law written on their hearts. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 8:30am On Aug 12, 2015 |
malvisguy212: PastorAIO: I said don't worry about that Good and Evil part. We are discussing Morality are we not. -So far we have concluded that Gentiles have Morality written on their hearts. -According to Jeremiah the Jews didn't even have an innate Morality. -Morality manifests variously in different peoples. -I then claimed that Morality can be explained without recourse to a Moral law giver. Specifically, The Theory of Evolution can account for Morality. This is where we have to continue from. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 8:57am On Aug 12, 2015 |
PastorAIO:meaning the gentile have advantage over the Jews ? Okay,this is from the beginning: He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:1-5 ESV). Eve even quote the word, God say to them "but God said"indicate his conscious know what is good and evil . Note: the mosaic law was only for the Jews. So the points is without the written code the Jews will still know what is right and wrong. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 9:04am On Aug 12, 2015 |
PastorAIO:let me ask you a question here. Is the foundation of morality supernatural or natural ? |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 9:07am On Aug 12, 2015 |
mustymatic:are you an atheist now ? Or does the quran say otherwise of "morality demand a law giver" ? |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by mustymatic(m): 9:27am On Aug 12, 2015 |
malvisguy212:No brother I'm not, but johnydon22 is somewhat right you know |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 9:43am On Aug 12, 2015 |
malvisguy212: What is the distinction between Supernatural and Natural. I believe that those are terms that you are using without any definition or clear idea of what you mean by them. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 10:12am On Aug 12, 2015 |
Let me repeat this point: Morality is instinctive in humans AND Morality can be explained by the Theory of Evolution without recourse to a God. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 10:15am On Aug 12, 2015 |
Let me repeat this point: Morality is instinctive in humans AND Morality can be explained by the Theory of Evolution without recourse to a God. A better explanation than 'God did it'. The problem with GDI (God Did It) is that it fails to explain why morality is so varied in different peoples from culture to culture, from individual to individual. However the evolutionary explanation accounts for the variety of moral systems. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Kay17: 12:10pm On Aug 12, 2015 |
In fact, Nietzsche charts an interesting evolution of morality as a codification of the interests and joys of a master class. For example the Samurai of Japan, place a great deal of value on courage, skill, loyalty and ferocity. To them, a good man is one with these qualities. In essence morality is a footmap of a society's personality. And how they wish to present themselves. There are many interesting hypotheses for the emergence of morality. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 12:23pm On Aug 12, 2015 |
PastorAIO:On a naturalistic view moral values are just the behavioral byproducts of biological evolution and social conditioning. But if you check the atheistic view there doesn’t seem to be anything that makes this morality objectively binding and true. If there is no God, then any reason for regarding the herd morality evolved by homo sapiens on this planet as objectively true seems to have been removed. Take God out of the picture, and all you seem to be left with is an ape-like creature on a speck of dust beset with delusions of moral grandeur. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 12:26pm On Aug 12, 2015 |
PastorAIO:is this not what subjective morality is all about ? |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 12:27pm On Aug 12, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Why must morality be objectively binding and true? If there is no God, then any reason for If that is your problem then you'll have to find a way to get over it, but not by inventing some fictitious god to buttress what is patently obvious to all to be nothing but your own personal bias. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 12:41pm On Aug 12, 2015 |
PastorAIO:okay, atheists should not complained to God when evil happened because according to Richard dawkin " when evil happened, man is only dancing to the molecules of there DNA" For what I can understand in your comment"we should defined good and evil " as that which supports the well-being” of conscious creatures. Whereby eliminate the idea of God ? What about moral value? You are not a christian nither are you a muslim or an atheist, what's your belief ? |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 12:52pm On Aug 12, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Somehow I don't see atheists complaining to God for anything. By very definition of Atheist I imagine that they'll try an infinite number of other measures before they resort to complaining to God. I have absolutely no idea how you can understand that from anything I said. I've said no such thing. Whereby eliminate the idea of God ? What about moral value? You are not a christian nither are you a muslim or an atheist, what's your belief ? I neither said eliminate the idea of God. I said that Morality is no evidence for the existence of God. This has no bearing on whether or not I believe in the existence of God. what about Moral Value? Please explain. What about it? this world isn't just divided up into christian, muslim, or atheist. I believe a great variety of things. 1 Like |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 4:01pm On Aug 12, 2015 |
PastorAIO:man was created in God’s image. Part of that image makes man a moral being. We are moral agents who make moral choices and are able to differentiate between right and wrong. The basis upon which we differentiate between right and wrong is our knowledge of God’s law, and that knowledge comes from two sources, revelation and conscience. Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. Thank you for your Time. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by PastorAIO: 9:28am On Aug 15, 2015 |
malvisguy212: Many observers might dispute that and say that it would seem that most Theists have created a God in their own image. The god of violent people is often violent. The God of liars is often a liar. The god of morons is often a slowpoke. Part of that image makes man a moral being. We are moral agents who make moral choices and are able to differentiate between right and wrong. The basis upon which we differentiate between right and wrong is our knowledge of God’s law, and that knowledge comes from two sources, revelation and conscience. Morality is more often sourced from society. The society you grow up in will determine your moral values often. The revelation is often provided by the society. The society's morality bears down on our conscience and makes us feel guilty if we transgress it. For instance your morality, you claim, is sourced from the revelation in the bible. As we all know the bible is a book produced by Jewish people. So Jewish morality is what is found therein. I however agree that we can also source morality from 'within'. This is a morality that has nothing to do with what we've learnt from our society and environment but a moral compass that we find within ourselves. You can access this morality when you silence the mind and cut out all the learnt ideas and values that you picked up from your upbringing or from your reading of books (like the bible), or from your environment. If you silence all these thoughts and perturbations of the mind and bask in a visceral essence then you'll gain access to another ethical guide light.
Time and Eternity. everything is beautiful in it's right Time. Time is but a span. from here to there. Eternity is all encompassing. Eternity is in the heart. Make that visceral connection and through away the books. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 9:53pm On Aug 15, 2015 |
PastorAIO:the nature and attribute of God in the bible is beyond imagination. if people were to have invented the God of Christianity, it is unlikely that it would be the demanding God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is described as holy , without sin and without the ability to commit sin. The holiness of God is described as being above anything that humans can attain, such that no human can stand before Him as holy. Behaving more morally upright than most other people is not sufficient to escape the punishment of the God of the Bible. In all religions, salvation is attained by human effort, its is only in Christianity salvation is the free gift of God. But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" ( Exodus 33:20) When He passes me I cannot see Him. When He goes by, I cannot perceive Him ( Job 9:11) The Almighty is beyond our reach ( Job 37:23) Soo the christian God does not look like 'god' invented in human mind. Alright: 1. If objective moral values do not exist, moral language cannot be predicated to objective acts, but only to subjective opinions regarding objective acts 2. Moral language can be predicated to objective facts 3. Therefore, objective moral language exists Very briefly, my point here is the words "RIGHT" and "WRONG" and in all their variances are either attributed to ACTS themselves our opinions about acts themselves.There is absolutely NO other way the words may be predicated, so these two categories are exhaustive. An example of each: a. Slavery is wrong b. I think of slavery as wrong In the first, moral language (the word "wrong" is attributed to the ACTUAL ACT of slavery. In the second, moral language is PREDICTED TO MY OPINION. What I am arguing is that, if objective moral values do not exist, then sentences of the first type are meaningless. The reason is that if there is no objective moral reality, then moral language doesn't refer to any existent thing. Why do we say this word? Slavery is wrong if objective morality do not exist ? Instead of "I THINK slavery is wrong. |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 7:15pm On Aug 16, 2015 |
malvisguy212: |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Omoluabi16(m): 10:59pm On Jan 07, 2016 |
[quote author=harakiri post=36567725]@op For starters ,its not every atheist that assumes a big bang theory as an explanation for evolution and some really dont care e.g me. In the same vein a lot theists support the "rock and slime" theory (as you put it). Bottom line is atheists have no religious beliefs. Talking about morality, IMO its subjective to what society depicts at the time e.g the bible and koran are filled with so many disturbing commands from the so called "almighty" god that would make the likes of shekau look like saints else how do explain abraham hearing voices (dementia) ordering to sacrifice his only son (first degree murder,aggravated assault,inflicting bodily harm) or how to explain the people of isreal hearing voices (mass dementia) ordering them to maim/kill/slaughter EVERY man,woman and child (genocide,war crimes galore). In today's world such atricoties are not taken lightly yet its acceptable in the "good book" and you see men of fraud making examples of these blood lust fairytales with the mentally depraved church sheeple nodding their thick blocked heads in approval. I dont need to read a book in order to know murder is wrong. Not only is it against the law but all blood shed (in my opinion) is wrong and that includes animals. Nigeria ranks among the top most religious countries in the world(if not the first). Can you lie to yourself and claim Nigeria ranks among the top 50 on the "morality index"? You ought to know better.[oooo] |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Omoluabi16(m): 11:00pm On Jan 07, 2016 |
[quote author=harakiri post=36567725]@op ha For starters ,its not every atheist that assumes a big bang theory as an explanation for evolution and some really dont care e.g me. In the same vein a lot theists support the "rock and slime" theory (as you put it). Bottom line is atheists have no religious beliefs. Talking about morality, IMO its subjective to what society depicts at the time e.g the bible and koran are filled with so many disturbing commands from the so called "almighty" god that would make the likes of shekau look like saints else how do explain abraham hearing voices (dementia) ordering to sacrifice his only son (first degree murder,aggravated assault,inflicting bodily harm) or how to explain the people of isreal hearing voices (mass dementia) ordering them to maim/kill/slaughter EVERY man,woman and child (genocide,war crimes galore). In today's world such atricoties are not taken lightly yet its acceptable in the "good book" and you see men of fraud making examples of these blood lust fairytales with the mentally depraved church sheeple nodding their thick blocked heads in approval. I dont need to read a book in order to know murder is wrong. Not only is it against the law but all blood shed (in my opinion) is wrong and that includes animals. Nigeria ranks among the top most religious countries in the world(if not the first). Can you lie to yourself and claim Nigeria ranks among the top 50 on the "morality index"? You ought to know better.[oooo] |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by malvisguy212: 7:21am On Aug 30, 2016 |
malvisguy212: |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by DorianD(m): 11:39am On Aug 13, 2017 |
harakiri: |
Re: Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver by Othello92(m): 4:49pm On Jan 13, 2018 |
[quote author=Omoluabi16 post=41761750][/quote][quote author=harakiri post=36569386] FREETHINKER: Acknowledges the abnormalities and inconsistencies of religion thus in search of truth and enlightenment. ATHEIST: Some (not all) have gone through the free thinker phase and concluded religion is nothing more than man-made hogwash. While telling "delusiongirl" that god will forgive her (for daring to have doubts of spoon fed religious trash), you should go on your knees begging the remaining 49,999 gods of other religions round the world that werent brought to your ancestors during the slave trade era. In retrospect, all your ancestors who died before the slave trading missionaries brought christianity must be rotting in tartarus...er..i mean hell fire coz they never knew the christian god. Thumbs up for a loving god. [/k] |
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