joseph1013:


[b]It is not conclusive evidence to accept where he said he went simply because there are unusual activities in his brain. So many factors may be responsible for that.

A few things to consider:

- Is the unusual activity peculiar to him or have we had experiences of people hallucinating making such claims too?
- What led to him having such an experience?
- What do we know of people who have made such claims in the past?

The story of a boy who published a book of his experience in heaven comes to mind. The book “The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven,” by Alex Malarkey was published in 2010. It was a best seller. So many Nigerian Christians still have that book and are still awed by that experience.

Just this January, the boy recounted his story saying it contains a lot of inaccuracies. He said the assuring description of miracles, angels, and life beyond This World in the book are all false.

He said, “I did not die. I did not go to Heaven.”

It proves that claims that cannot be proven by solid evidence are potentially dangerous.

Here is the story in Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style-blog/wp/2015/01/15/boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-going-back-to-publisher/[/b]

PastorAIO:
Yes temporoparietal activity is well documented to be involved in OBE (out of body experience).

joseph1013:


I did not say your belief is limited to Christainity, in fact you already told us that you're not a Christain. I simply ask you what are your beliefs. What do they entail?

Do you believe in God? What God do you believe in? Why do you believe in the version of the God that you believe in?

joseph1013:


Can you link me up with the documents? The largest-ever study that seem to provide evidence that 'out of body' and 'near-death' experiences that came out late last year has been concluded by researchers to not be as impressive as thought.

Mindfulness:



I believe that there is a God. I believe that God is life and in all of us. I do not think that our thoughts can comprehend what God is about but I believe that he can be found and felt in stillness and beyond thought. If you want to know more, just ask.

joseph1013:




Not true! God knew Adam and Eve will fail the test and that's why scriptures say that he had planned for Jesus to be killed before the creation of the world.

See this:

1st Peter 1:20(New Living Translation)
God chose him as your ransom long before the world began,
but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.

Revelaton 13:8 (New International Version)
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose
names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the
Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

How about that? He knew they would sin before he created them and then had planned Jesus to die.

See, the fact that we could both dig up verses of scriptures to support different views (even though I have way more verses and examples than you do) indicate that the Bible is a confusing book. It is not inerrant and definitely not something people should live for.

joseph1013:


Interesting.

God is life. God is in all of us. God can be found. God can be found in stillness.

How do you know all these things?

joseph1013:


You don't get it.The reason it has been copied millions of times is because the original manuscripts have been lost. They can't find the original copies again. So what the have are the fragments of the copies of the copies of the original manuscripts. That's why!

For such an important book, shouldn't the author that is so powerful preserve the original copies so that people don't believe different things from the same piece? Should it be such that people would not have to include their own words because some parts of the manuscripts have been torn so they just guess the words that should have completed some sentences.

There are so many words and sentences that are not found in any of the manuscripts in the Bible.

Moses foretold the time when Israel would be ruled by a king and recorded this special command: “When he takes his seat on the throne of his kingdom, he must write in a book for himself a copy of this law from that which is in the charge of the priests, the Levites.” (Deuteronomy 17:18) Hence, some copies of the Scriptures were to be made. The instruction was that people should make copies so that they can personally study the scriptures themselves and not just rely on a Saturday or Sunday teacher.
Copying the Scriptures eventually became a profession in Israel. Indeed, Psalm 45:1 says: “May my tongue be the stylus of a skilled copyist.” Such copyists as Shaphan and Zadok were mentioned by name. But the best-known copyist of ancient times was Ezra, who also contributed original writings to the Bible. (Ezra 7:6; Nehemiah 13:13; Jeremiah 36:10) Even while later portions of the Bible were being written, those books already completed were being copied and distributed.
When Jesus Christ was on earth, copies of the Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis to Malachi) were available not only in Jerusalem but also apparently in synagogues of Galilee. (Luke 4:16, 17) Why, at distant Beroea in Macedonia, spiritually minded Jews were able to ‘examine the Scriptures daily’! (Acts 17:11) Copying was necessary for all to have a share and for reservation. Moses wrote his laws on papyrus and other writers wrote theirs also on perishable materials, copying was a good way of making sure it survives. Its like the film iron man: age of ultron, the machine made copies of himself to survive, everyone of those copies would have to be destroyed for him to cease to exist.

How accurate was their copying?

Professional copyists of the Hebrew Scriptures (called Sopherim) were very concerned about avoiding any mistakes. To check their work, they counted the words and even the letters of each manuscript they copied. Therefore, Jesus, the apostle Paul, and others who often quoted the ancient Bible writers had no doubt about the accuracy of the copies they used.

In 1947 there was an unexpected discovery of some ancient scrolls in caves near the Dead Sea. These scrolls showed just how accurate the copying of the Scriptures had been. Among the scrolls was a copy of the Bible book of Isaiah that was about a thousand years older than any manuscript previously available. Yet, a comparison showed that the only differences between the Dead Sea manuscript and later copies were in such things as word order and grammar. The meaning of the text was unchanged after a thousand years of copying! Concerning the text of the Hebrew Scriptures, scholar William Henry Green could therefore say: “It may be safely said that no other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted.” Similar comments have been made about the accuracy of transmission of the Christian Greek Scriptures.


You mean the Dover Court case? What technicality is that? Can you tell us? And what ways do you think the Intelligent design proponents ought to have won?

Which valid point did they bring to the table?

rabzy:
I will like to know those verses, so we could discuss it.

rabzy:



The apostle Peter’s statement that Christ, as the sacrificial Lamb of God, was “foreknown before the founding [form of Greek ka·ta·bo·le′] of the world [ko′smou]” is construed by advocates of predestinarianism to mean that God exercised such foreknowledge before mankind’s creation. (1Pe 1:19, 20) The Greek word ka·ta·bo·le′, translated “founding,” literally means “a throwing down” and can refer to the ‘conceiving of seed,’ the same word was used at Hebrews 11:11. While there was “the founding” of a world of mankind when God created the first human pair, as is shown at Hebrews 4:3, 4, that pair thereafter forfeited their position as children of God. (Ge 3:22-24; Ro 5:12) Yet, by God’s undeserved kindness, they were allowed to conceive seed and produce offspring, one of whom is specifically shown in the Bible to have gained God’s favor and placed himself in position for redemption and salvation, namely, Abel. (Ge 4:1, 2; Heb 11:4) It is noteworthy that at Luke 11:49-51 Jesus refers to “the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world” and parallels this with the words “from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah.” Thus, Abel is connected by Jesus with “the founding of the world.”

Thus the time Abel was born was also considered as a 'founding of the world', so the foreknown was at the conceiving of Abel or specifically when the first faithful man was martyred, at which point Jesus has been destined to come and save mankind.

Even before children were born to Adam and Eve, God indicated that there would be enmity between the ‘seed of the woman’ and the ‘seed of the serpent.’ (Ge 3:15) Thus from the founding of the world it had already been determined that no worshiper of the wild beast would have his name written in the Lamb’s scroll. Only persons sacred from God’s standpoint were to be so privileged.—Re 21:27.

Malachi 3:16: “At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.

This indicates that the names of these people were not there until they started doing fearing God, speaking about him and thinking on his name and God payed his attention to this and then had their names written.

Now the following verses shows that those whose actions God has judged to merit life can have their names removed when they change their course of good conduct. Manasseh name was apparently included when he changed from bad to good and probably Solomon was erased.

(Revelation 3:4, 5)The one who conquers will thus be dressed in white garments, and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life, but I will acknowledge his name before my Father and before his ange. . .... This shows blotting out is possible.

(Psalm 69:28) 28 Let them be erased from the book of life, And may they not be enrolled among the righteous.

God's decision to blot out any unfaithful one was shown when Israel worshiped the golden calf at Sinai. After asking God to forgive Israel Moses said: “But if not, pray blot me out of thy book.” Jehovah’s reply was: “Whoever sins against me, him only I blot out of my book.”—Ex. 32:32, 33, AT.

That is why the following admonitions were given to faithful ones:
“Do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves.” Like the apostle Paul, all those who would remain in the book would be able to say this: “I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith.”

Phil. 2:12, RS: “As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

Matt. 7:13, 14, RS: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

It is those who find it that are granted life.

So nobody's damnation or salvation was cast in stone at anytime. Jesus said he that endures to the end would be saved. if it was all cast in stone, Satan would not have bothered deceiving Jesus or anyone else for that matter.

Mindfulness:


Life taught me.

rabzy:

Moses foretold the time when Israel would be ruled by a king and recorded this special command: “When he takes his seat on the throne of his kingdom, he must write in a book for himself a copy of this law from that which is in the charge of the priests, the Levites.” (Deuteronomy 17:18) Hence, some copies of the Scriptures were to be made. The instruction was that people should make copies so that they can personally study the scriptures themselves and not just rely on a Saturday or Sunday teacher.
Copying the Scriptures eventually became a profession in Israel. Indeed, Psalm 45:1 says: “May my tongue be the stylus of a skilled copyist.” Such copyists as Shaphan and Zadok were mentioned by name. But the best-known copyist of ancient times was Ezra, who also contributed original writings to the Bible. (Ezra 7:6; Nehemiah 13:13; Jeremiah 36:10) Even while later portions of the Bible were being written, those books already completed were being copied and distributed.
When Jesus Christ was on earth, copies of the Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis to Malachi) were available not only in Jerusalem but also apparently in synagogues of Galilee. (Luke 4:16, 17) Why, at distant Beroea in Macedonia, spiritually minded Jews were able to ‘examine the Scriptures daily’! (Acts 17:11) Copying was necessary for all to have a share and for reservation. Moses wrote his laws on papyrus and other writers wrote theirs also on perishable materials, copying was a good way of making sure it survives. Its like the film iron man: age of ultron, the machine made copies of himself to survive, everyone of those copies would have to be destroyed for him to cease to exist.

How accurate was their copying?

Professional copyists of the Hebrew Scriptures (called Sopherim) were very concerned about avoiding any mistakes. To check their work, they counted the words and even the letters of each manuscript they copied. Therefore, Jesus, the apostle Paul, and others who often quoted the ancient Bible writers had no doubt about the accuracy of the copies they used.

In 1947 there was an unexpected discovery of some ancient scrolls in caves near the Dead Sea. These scrolls showed just how accurate the copying of the Scriptures had been. Among the scrolls was a copy of the Bible book of Isaiah that was about a thousand years older than any manuscript previously available. Yet, a comparison showed that the only differences between the Dead Sea manuscript and later copies were in such things as word order and grammar. The meaning of the text was unchanged after a thousand years of copying! Concerning the text of the Hebrew Scriptures, scholar William Henry Green could therefore say: “It may be safely said that no other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted.” Similar comments have been made about the accuracy of transmission of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

The technicality was that they were trying to bring in something that the constitution has specifically ruled out..creationism. So whether it was true science, since it was proven to be linked to creationism, its out. The case of whether it was design or not was not properly explored and it would have been best explored outside the court room, where scientists from different fields who discuss it scientifically in front of their peers. Many evidences would be tabled..refuted and others brought forward..just like it is presently being done with the different variants and understanding of the evolution theory by its proponents.

joseph1013:


How did life teach you that God is life?

That God is in all of us? God can be found? God can be found in stillness?

What are your experiences?

Mindfulness:


I would have to write an autobiography to answer this question.

When you stop thinking by concentrating on your breath for example, then you might be able to realize that you are not your thoughts but a presence or consciousness that can observe these thoughts if any arise. And then you will also realize that beyond our thoughts, we are all this one consciousness.

joseph1013:


[b]Interesting. Meaning your position is pretty subjective...

It reminds me of the Roswell UFO incident

What REALLY happened?
A guy found a bunch of sticks and tinfoil in the desert. (His unique experience)

In the summer of 1947, a United States Air Force surveillance balloon crashed at a ranch near Roswell, New Mexico. The military reported that the crash was merely of a conventional weather balloon. In the 1990s the US military published reports disclosing the true nature of the crashed Project Mogul balloon.

What was SAID to have happened?
Immediately afterwards people claimed it was debris from a crashed Unidentified Flying Object, UFO.

Between 1978 and the early 1990s, UFO researchers interviewed several hundred people who had – or claimed to have had – a connection with the events at Roswell in 1947. Hundreds of documents were obtained via Freedom of Information Act requests. Their conclusions were at least one alien craft had crashed in the Roswell vicinity, aliens – some possibly still alive – had been recovered, and a government cover-up of any knowledge of the incident had taken place.

Over the years, books, articles, television specials, and a made-for-TV movie brought the 1947 incident significant notoriety. By the mid-1990s, public polls such as a 1997 CNN/Time poll, revealed that the majority of people interviewed believed that aliens had indeed visited Earth, and that aliens had landed at Roswell.

According to anthropologists, the Roswell Story was the prime example of how a discourse moved from the fringes to the mainstream according to the prevailing zeitgeist: public preoccupation in the 1980s with "conspiracy, cover-up and repression" aligned well with the Roswell narratives as told in the "sensational books" which were being published.

And this all happened in the 20th century in the United States, in the era of universal literacy, modern journalism, TV and radio.
If such a legend can grow so fast and still have millions of believers in modern times, how easy do you think it was for a legends to have been made up and believed in by people during antiquity, where literacy was probably 5 percent or less, there was widespread superstition, and there was no newspapers, or journalism, or mass communication?

It buttresses the point that experiences can not always be trusted because they are prone to be interpreted subjectively.

Goodluck to you, buddy.[/b]

Mindfulness:


Is the report above yours or did you copy and paste?

Of course this is my very subjective experience and view, I have never claimed for it to be objective or for it to be a universal truth.

joseph1013:


It is mine. From several articles I have read about the incident, including wikipedia. I got to research the incident when Richard Carrier used it as an analogy as to why Jesus did not exist as a historical figure.

Mindfulness:


I thought it was proven that Jesus did exist as a historical figure.

Mindfulness:
Joseph1013,

it is time for me to ask you a few questions.

Do you really believe that there is a God who is wicked, evil and psychopathic?

Are you a Christian? If yes, why? If not, why not?

joseph1013 post=28892955[b:


This page will be my questions and rant page.

I am not naive enough to expect that most who come to this page will abandon the faith they hold dear, but I do hope to convince my readers that many of us who walk away have not done so out of a rebellious, juvenile whim, but rather out of a careful weighing of the reasons for and against our former faith. Our decision, far from being "sad," as many of my friends and family perceive it, represents a move from unquestioning acceptance of tradition to a spirit of openness and adventure that pursues the evidence wherever it leads. We left in pursuit of truth.

Of course as I grew up, I had questions. One of the earliest I remembered was asking how Cain had a wife if there were only thre people on earth (Abel having died). The answer my mum gave to that and many of the innocent questions of mine at a tender age was that I should make sure I get to heaven so that I could ask God myself. It didn't prove sufficient but what was a child to do otherwise.

I have been on this journey for a while now and I can say that I have come to a stage where I can sufficiently say that I am longer a Christian or a religionist. I do not conclusively deny the existence of God, but I can totally say that nobody has given me a convincing evidence for the existence of the Abrahamic God.

I invite Christian readers to consider the possibility that my apostasy is a result not of divine or diabolical deception but of a simple weighing of the evidence ... It might be that I am wrong. It might be that I have not sought God sufficiently or studied the Bible thoroughly enough or listened carefully enough to the many Christians who have admonished me ... Maybe. But the knowledge that billions of seekers have lived and died, calling out to God for some definitive revelation without ever receiving it, or receiving revelation that conflicts with the revelation others have found, contributes to my suspicion that there is no personal God who reveals himself to anyone.

One of my primary reasons for having this page is self-serving: I do not relish knowing that others consider me to be on the road to eternal damnation if I don't repent, and I want to do what I can to change their perception of those of us who do not share their faith. Yet is this self-serving endeavor reckless? If I believed it would worsen the lives of all those who follow my rants and questions, then yes, it would be reckless. But I am convinced that life can actually improve for those who come to understand that our earthly existence is not simply a stage, a cosmic morality play, a precursor to an eternity to come. This life is the real (and only) deal.

Mindfulness:

I have received revelations. I actually do every day. It is not as sensational as people might assume now.
If you ask me to explain it to you, I probably won't be able to do so but something tells me that you will understand sooner or later.

joseph1013:


[color=#550000][b]You know, I respect your experiences. I respect your claim when you say you have and continue to receive revelations. But I cannot accept them without proof.

A certain man also said he received revelations where God told him to rename his church The Redeemed Christian Church of God. The man, though an illiterate, claimed God gave him the instructions in English. His claim can be respected but accepting it as true without evidence is asking for too much. For if we do his and yours, what is stopping us from accepting claims by complete lunatics the world over who also claim to have revelations of being the Coming Christ and asks that men come to them to get to heaven. Various claims abound on Youtube. A messianic claim like that is by an Australian as revealed in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML2Oa4Oigvo .

It is because of such things as this that I cannot accept your claims at face value. I need more than your words on anonymous internet to take them serious.

Mindfulness:
However, some time later, for one reason or another, without returning to Christianity in the traditional sense, I decided that I prefer to have faith. And I am very aware of the difference between knowledge and faith.

PastorAIO:


Sir, please may I butt in.

When you say you prefer to have faith are you saying that it is not a matter of compulsion by evidence but rather a free willed choice based on some arbitrary whim.

Mindfulness:


Sure.



It is not a matter of compulsion by evidence. If there was evidence, we would not need faith because knowledge would replace it.

It is my free willed choice. It is not based on some arbitrary whim.