Scholar8200:

Since you know the highlighted, do it with respect to contexts and reference.

I wonder how you arrived at that accusation though. Perhaps you can help draw my attention to it.

You have trashed Pauline eschatology

What is Paul telling you regarding the COMING of Jesus?

vooks:


We are discussing Thessalonians and you dismiss it without a single look and then take me in circles.

Rather what I did was to analyse it in the light of other parallel references in the Bible.

We can't consider ALL the Bible says when we are busy trashing what it says at a particular point!

But we have to in establishing Truth just like you said!

Scholar8200:
Rather what I did was to analyse it in the light of other parallel references in the Bible.

No sir, what you did is pretend it doesn't exist or say anything because of others.

But we have to in establishing Truth just like you said!

Your first point would have been to interrogate WHAT it APPEARS to say. On the surface. Then get deeper, verbs,tenses, Greek and all. One can't attempt to arrive at a truth when they have set minds and theories. Lay aside biases and opinion and suffer scriptures to minister to you. Don't compete with Holy Spirit at Inspiration

vooks:

You have trashed Pauline eschatology

What is Paul telling you regarding the COMING of Jesus?

Bro, permit me to refer you to my initial answer to this. Pauline eschatology (1 Thessalonians 4) was that we will be changed, the believers that were dead will be raised incorruptible and we all will meet the Lord in the air.

Does this contradict what he wrote in 2 Thessalonians? No. It will only seem so if we ignore other parallel passages like you want us to do. Like I said, the Spirit's Inspiration of scripture has always been such that all believers of all ages and epoch will find it applicable to them(whether they be the Bride or the Tribulation Saints).

Besides, if the Rapture+Armageddon was what Paul was referring to in 2 Thessalonians, then what will be the use of the Battle of Gog and Magog where fire falls from Heaven to destroy the enemies? Which enemies will that be?

Afterall the battle alluded to in 2Thessalonians 1 should have destroyed them all.

vooks:

No sir, what you did is pretend it doesn't exist or say anything because of others.

It's okay.

Your first point would have been to interrogate WHAT it APPEARS to say. On the surface. Then get deeper, verbs,tenses, Greek and all. One can't attempt to arrive at a truth when they have set minds and theories. Lay aside biases and opinion and suffer scriptures to minister to you. Don't compete with Holy Spirit at Inspiration

Rather than go into Greek, why not consider what other passages teach on the events being considered?

Now if we were to stick to Thessalonians alone, this is what you get:
1. Jesus descends from Heaven and the saints, dead or alive, meet Him in the air;
2. After they meet Him in the air, they all descend immediately down to the Earth to destroy the man of sin;
3. Afterwards, Jesus establishes His Earthly kingdom and that will be all.

You know this is not all.(Except we will edit and/or dispense with whole portions in the OT and NT!)

Scholar8200:
Bro, permit me to refer you to my initial answer to this. Pauline eschatology (1 Thessalonians 4) was that we will be changed, the believers that were dead will be raised incorruptible and we all will meet the Lord in the air.

Meet Christ in the air, and then what?

The verse is CLEAR, Christ shall DESCEND. Is this descent coming or not?

Does this contradict what he wrote in 2 Thessalonians? No. It will only seem so if we ignore other parallel passages like you want us to do. Like I said, the Spirit's Inspiration of scripture has always been such that all believers of all ages and epoch will find it applicable to them(whether they be the Bride or the Tribulation Saints).

In 1 Thes 4 Paul uses the word DESCEND. In 2 Thes he uses the word COMING.

Besides, if the Rapture+Armageddon was what Paul was referring to in 2 Thessalonians, then what will be the use of the Battle of Gog and Magog where fire falls from Heaven to destroy the enemies? Which enemies will that be?

We need METHOD and tact sir. We are on COMING of Jesus Christ. Paul RELATED the coming to resurrection. Why would two events supposedly by your theories 1000 years apart be related to each other?

Afterall the battle alluded to in 2Thessalonians 1 should have destroyed them all.

This hopping and inability to LISTEN to Paul is your bane


Let's go through the questions again.
Jesus you agree returns and destroys man of sin.
Why is this event 1000 years after resurrection relevant to Thessalonian resurrection?

Scholar8200:
It's okay.

Rather than go into Greek, why not consider what other passages teach on the events being considered?

Now if we were to stick to Thessalonians alone, this is what you get:
1. Jesus DESCENDS from Heaven and the saints, dead or alive, meet Him in the air;
2. After they meet Him in the air, they all descend immediately down to the Earth to destroy the man of sin;
3. Afterwards, Jesus establishes His Earthly kingdom and that will be all.

You know this is not all.(Except we will edit and/or dispense with whole portions in the OT and NT!)

Let us FIRST understand Paul in 1 Thessalonians

1. The dead precede the living in resurrection and they shall meet him in the air
2. Christ shall DESCEND. When he ascended, he left the earth, when he descended, he came to earth. Isn't it obvious? Please do a word study on DESCEND
3. In chapter 5, the event just described is called the DAY OF THE LORD

moving on to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
1. The COMING of the Lord is clearly called the DAY OF THE LORD
2. Before the DAY OF THE LORD/COMING, some things/events must take place; unveiling of man of sin
3. Man of sin is destroyed at Jesus' COMING


Conclusion
The DAY OF THE LORD is the COMING of Jesus at which the rapture/resurrection happens and it happens AFTER the man of sin is revealed


PS
In 1 Thes, Paul focuses on resurrection of the saints so as to comfort the mourning Thessalonians while in 2 Thessalonians he focuses on the timing of Christ COMING to correct to erroneous notion that it is past

Let's go through the questions again.
Jesus you agree returns and destroys man of sin.
Why is this event 1000 years after resurrection relevant to Thessalonian resurrection?

Interestingly, 2 Thessalonians says nothing about resurrection, only 1Thessalonians says the dead in Christ shall rise. The latter speaks of meeting the Lord in the air while the former speaks of an event that will happen on the Earth.

Now if there be no Millenial reign (but there is) would you say:
That Battle of Armageddon=Battle of Gog and Magog?

Scholar8200:



Interestingly, 2 Thessalonians says nothing about resurrection, only 1Thessalonians says the dead in Christ shall rise. The latter speaks of meeting the Lord in the air while the former speaks of an event that will happen on the Earth.

Paul does not waste ink and paper.
In 1 Thes, he is addressing mourning Thessalonians. The best you can comfort a mourning believer with is RESURRECTION. In 2 Thes, he is correcting an erroneous idea that Jesus had already returned! And he powerfully does that by telling them of specific events that MUST precede the Coming namely man of sin

Now if there be no Millenial reign (but there is) would you say:
That Battle of Armageddon=Battle of Gog and Magog?

This is digression

vooks:


Let us FIRST understand Paul in 1 Thessalonians

1. The dead precede the living in resurrection and they shall meet him in the air
2. Christ shall DESCEND. When he ascended, he left the earth, when he descended, he came to earth. Isn't it obvious? Please do a word study on DESCEND
3. In chapter 5, the event just described is called the DAY OF THE LORD

moving on to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
1. The COMING of the Lord is clearly called the DAY OF THE LORD
2. Before the DAY OF THE LORD/COMING, some things/events must take place; unveiling of man of sin
3. Man of sin is destroyed at Jesus' COMING


Conclusion
The DAY OF THE LORD is the COMING of Jesus at which the rapture/resurrection happens and it happens AFTER the man of sin is revealed

Based on your conclusion would you, of thy clemency, answer these:
1. What would be the condition of Israel at this time? Since they did not accept the Messiah, will they go with the rapture? If no, what will happen to them?

Let's start with this, others will come after we are done with this. This is not a digression, we cant talk of the Rapture and Christ's coming without referring to surrounding events.

vooks:

At what point in Revelation does Jesus return?

And at what point do we have Rapture?

i skimmed through your ongoing discussion with Scholar8200. One thing to note is that the "coming of the Lord" is a phase, very similar to the "day of the Lord". Depending on context, the day or coming of the Lord may be referring to many things, from Judgement to Reward to what we call millenial reign to rapture etc. All these are different events that happen at different times and not concurrently or simulteneously. Like his first coming has His Birth, His Life, His Death, His Resurrection and His Ascension. His Second coming will be 'kicked off' with the rapture(my opinion from study etc of course).

So, to Revelations. At what point do we have Rapture, that's chapter4v1. Chapters2 and 3 are letters to the church, and just like other epitles in the Bible, these letters are for both the direct/immediate recipients and for we believers. There is some message there for us. Jesus is still who He is in the letters; holding the stars, the keys, walking in the midst, knowing our works etc. The church and all believers are still called to overcome etc. After the church age, there is a COME UP HITHER, to see things which must be hereafter..
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

Up there, Heaven is seen, saints/elders are also seen, then of course the Lamb and the worship etc in chapters 4 and 5. Chapters 6 to somewhere in 19 talk mainly about the tribulation events on earth. Mainly not Only. Revelation 19v11 shows the literal second coming to earth WITH the saints.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

You know the rest i guess. the beast is taken, Jesus and His army reign on earth, satan is bound etc.

Scholar8200:

Based on your conclusion would you, of thy clemency, answer these:
1. What would be the condition of Israel at this time? Since they did not accept the Messiah, will they go with the rapture? If no, what will happen to them?


Let's start with this, others will come after we are done with this. This is not a digression, we cant talk of the Rapture and Christ's coming without referring to surrounding events.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile sir in Christ. They will perish in their sin

Image123:


i skimmed through your ongoing discussion with Scholar8200. One thing to note is that the "coming of the Lord" is a phase, very similar to the "day of the Lord". Depending on context, the day or coming of the Lord may be referring to many things, from Judgement to Reward to what we call millenial reign to rapture etc. All these are different events that happen at different times and not concurrently or simulteneously. Like his first coming has His Birth, His Life, His Death, His Resurrection and His Ascension. His Second coming will be 'kicked off' with the rapture(my opinion from study etc of course).

In 1Thes and 2Thes context, what is the day of the Lord?

So, to Revelations. At what point do we have Rapture, that's chapter4v1.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
1. There is a resurrection in these verses called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it your 4:1 resurrection or something different?

2. The resurrection of chapter 20 is of or at least includes those who never received the mark which means they must have been exposed to but resisted the mark. Does your 4:1 rapture/resurrection happen before/after the mark/beast?

3. The chapter 20 resurrection happens AFTER the beast has been destroyed and cast into the lake of fire towards the end of chapter 19. 2 Thessalonians tells us of a man of sin who will be destroyed at the coming of Jesus. Is it safe to conclude that resurrection happens AFTER the destruction of the beast which happens at the COMING of Jesus?

4. Chapter 20 resurrection is called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it remotely possible that there was a global resurrection before it, that is supposing for some reason this is not the rapture?

Chapters2 and 3 are letters to the church, and just like other epitles in the Bible, these letters are for both the direct/immediate recipients and for we believers. There is some message there for us. Jesus is still who He is in the letters; holding the stars, the keys, walking in the midst, knowing our works etc. The church and all believers are still called to overcome etc.

Chapter one of Revelation makes no such distinction between parts for some and not others

After the church age, there is a COME UP HITHER, to see things which must be hereafter.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

Guesswork. Who made you see ages? Theories of men

Up there, Heaven is seen, saints/elders are also seen, then of course the Lamb and the worship etc in chapters 4 and 5. Chapters 6 to somewhere in 19 talk mainly about the tribulation events on earth. Mainly not Only. Revelation 19v11 shows the literal second coming to earth WITH the saints.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

You know the rest i guess. the beast is taken, Jesus and His army reign on earth, satan is bound etc.

Answer the questions above

Thanks

Cc Gombs,Goshen360,Joagbaje,Scholar8200

.

vooks:

There is neither Jew nor Gentile sir in Christ. They will perish in their sin

Here, once again, you contradict whole portions of Scripture! What? Pls read up Paul's inspired expose in Romans 11 and dont mix up Israel and the church in that passage.
Besides, what purpose serves Daniel 9 with respect to Israel?

vooks:

In 1Thes and 2Thes context, what is the day of the Lord?

1 Thess 4 does not describe the rapture as the Day of the Lord.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
1. There is a resurrection in these verses called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it your 4:1 resurrection or something different?

And it specifies those involved in verse 4, as those martyred in the Tribulation for Christ distinct from the dead in Christ that arose at Rapture and were called the Bride. The ordination oof first and second here is limited to that advent, else what do we say to the resurrection of OT saints after Christ's resurrection in Matthew 27:52,53?

2. The resurrection of chapter 20 is of or at least includes those who never received the mark which means they must have been exposed to but resisted the mark. Does your 4:1 rapture/resurrection happen before/after the mark/beast?

those were Tribulation saints, distinct from the Bride mentioned in Revelations 19:7-9

3. The chapter 20 resurrection happens AFTER the beast has been destroyed and cast into the lake of fire towards the end of chapter 19. 2 Thessalonians tells us of a man of sin who will be destroyed at the coming of Jesus. Is it safe to conclude that resurrection happens AFTER the destruction of the beast which happens at the COMING of Jesus?

Again, verse 4 tells us those that lived after that resurrection.

4. Chapter 20 resurrection is called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it remotely possible that there was a global resurrection before it, that is supposing for some reason this is not the rapture?

Yes! After the Tribulation, two resurrections will take place: first is for the saints who did not take the mark and were washed in the blood; the second is for the dead.

vooks:

In 1Thes and 2Thes context, what is the day of the Lord?

For one, the phrase "day of the Lord" appears just once in the epistles to the Thessalonians i think.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Here, he is likely referring to the rapture as that makes perfect sense the surprise. There is no surprise in the literal second coming as everyone sane then will be expecting Him and every eye will see Him. It is no thief in the night venture. He will come and stay for many years. In 2Peter for instance, the day of the Lord is referring to the very end of the world when the elements will be burnt up. i'll likely come back to Thessalonians, but like you adviced someone, let's finish with Revelations. Of course, the sense is there in what that person told you about not building to much on just one part but taking every thing completely and holistically.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
1. There is a resurrection in these verses called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it your 4:1 resurrection or something different?

2. The resurrection of chapter 20 is of or at least includes those who never received the mark which means they must have been exposed to but resisted the mark. Does your 4:1 rapture/resurrection happen before/after the mark/beast?

3. The chapter 20 resurrection happens AFTER the beast has been destroyed and cast into the lake of fire towards the end of chapter 19. 2 Thessalonians tells us of a man of sin who will be destroyed at the coming of Jesus. Is it safe to conclude that resurrection happens AFTER the destruction of the beast which happens at the COMING of Jesus?

4. Chapter 20 resurrection is called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it remotely possible that there was a global resurrection before it, that is supposing for some reason this is not the rapture?

The term "first resurrection" is simply a phrase used in comparison to the "second death". There is no second resurrection in the sense. It's just like "first Adam"and "last Adam". The emphasis is more of contextual than numeric. In the literal sense, the sinner is dead while alive on earth, then he dies a second time when he dies physically, but there is a second death afterwards. The first resurrection phrase is only found in that passage in all of scriptures BTW. Someone like Lazarus and Tabitha will have issues with a numeric first resurrection as they resurrected when they became believers, then they resurrected when they dies physically, then this first resurrection thing again. All saints are partake in the reigning with Christ and indeed, on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Whether Old Testament or New testament saints, even though the passage is specific on souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, who did not worship the beast. So if you are not beheaded, sorry for you oh my brother, no first resurrection be that, just kidding.

Chapter one of Revelation makes no such distinction between parts for some and not others

This is common Bible knowledge. there are some direct messages in Bible epistles to the direct hearers/recipients, and there are general messages. For instance in Paul's epistles, there are some direct instructions to Timothy or to Alexander the coppersmith etc. In Revelations 2 and 3, there is a particular Jezebel woman, there are some people saying that they are Jews, and are not, there is an Antipas, there are some holding a particular doctrine of Nicolaitanes. The point made though is still that Chapters2 and 3 are letters to the church, things present.

Guesswork. Who made you see ages? Theories of men
Answer the questions above

Thanks

Cc Gombs,Goshen360,Joagbaje,Scholar8200

It's inherent. However, that something may be extrabiblical doesn't necessarily mean that it is wrong. Many health truths, physics truths etc are not in the Bible for instance. In Acts1, it talks of a certain sabbath day's journey. This simply is distance lawfully traveled by a Jew on the Sabbath. This was 2,000 paces or cubits, or seven furlongs and a half - not quite one mile. This is something not in the Bible but is what a sabbath day's journey means. When one says church age, that you don't see it in the Bible doesn't mean there is nothing like that. All you need to find out is the meaning. There is the period referred to as the time of the gentiles. These are simple illustrations, not guesswork. The church age is simply the period from when the church was formed by Christ till the time of the Rapture, when the living church will meet the Lord in the air. We are in that period/age as the church is still here on earth waiting for the Lord.

Image123:


For one, the phrase "day of the Lord" appears just once in the epistles to the Thessalonians i think.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Here, he is likely referring to the rapture as that makes perfect sense the surprise. There is no surprise in the literal second coming as everyone sane then will be expecting Him and every eye will see Him. It is no thief in the night venture. He will come and stay for many years. In 2Peter for instance, the day of the Lord is referring to the very end of the world when the elements will be burnt up. i'll likely come back to Thessalonians, but like you adviced someone, let's finish with Revelations. Of course, the sense is there in what that person told you about not building to much on just one part but taking every thing completely and holistically.



The term "first resurrection" is simply a phrase used in comparison to the "second death". There is no second resurrection in the sense. It's just like "first Adam"and "last Adam". The emphasis is more of contextual than numeric. In the literal sense, the sinner is dead while alive on earth, then he dies a second time when he dies physically, but there is a second death afterwards. The first resurrection phrase is only found in that passage in all of scriptures BTW. Someone like Lazarus and Tabitha will have issues with a numeric first resurrection as they resurrected when they became believers, then they resurrected when they dies physically, then this first resurrection thing again. All saints are partake in the reigning with Christ and indeed, on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Whether Old Testament or New testament saints, even though the passage is specific on souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, who did not worship the beast. So if you are not beheaded, sorry for you oh my brother, no first resurrection be that, just kidding.




This is common Bible knowledge. there are some direct messages in Bible epistles to the direct hearers/recipients, and there are general messages. For instance in Paul's epistles, there are some direct instructions to Timothy or to Alexander the coppersmith etc. In Revelations 2 and 3, there is a particular Jezebel woman, there are some people saying that they are Jews, and are not, there is an Antipas, there are some holding a particular doctrine of Nicolaitanes. The point made though is still that Chapters2 and 3 are letters to the church, things present.




It's inherent. However, that something may be extrabiblical doesn't necessarily mean that it is wrong. Many health truths, physics truths etc are not in the Bible for instance. In Acts1, it talks of a certain sabbath day's journey. This simply is distance lawfully traveled by a Jew on the Sabbath. This was 2,000 paces or cubits, or seven furlongs and a half - not quite one mile. This is something not in the Bible but is what a sabbath day's journey means. When one says church age, that you don't see it in the Bible doesn't mean there is nothing like that. All you need to find out is the meaning. There is the period referred to as the time of the gentiles. These are simple illustrations, not guesswork. The church age is simply the period from when the church was formed by Christ till the time of the Rapture, when the living church will meet the Lord in the air. We are in that period/age as the church is still here on earth waiting for the Lord.

It us quite unfortunate you IGNORED all the question I asked.

Jesus is called the first begotten from among the dead yet the dead were rising long before He came on earth. Why is this? His resurrection entailed transformation from physical to spiritual; H rose again to Never die again, His mortality was clothed with immortality while Lazarus died again.

This mean Jesus was th first to be clothed with immortality.

FIRST RESURRECTION means exactly that global/church resurrection you read of in 1 Corinthians 15, and in 1 Thessalonians.

Church age is a theory of men that is 101% unfounded. It is conjecture.

Here are the questions Image123 just for you
Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

1. There is a resurrection in these verses called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it your 4:1 resurrection or something different?

2. The resurrection of chapter 20 is of or at least includes those who never received the mark which means they must have been exposed to but resisted the mark. Does your 4:1 rapture/resurrection happen before/after the mark/beast?

3. The chapter 20 resurrection happens AFTER the beast has been destroyed and cast into the lake of fire towards the end of chapter 19. 2 Thessalonians tells us of a man of sin who will be destroyed at the coming of Jesus. Is it safe to conclude that resurrection happens AFTER the destruction of the beast which happens at the COMING of Jesus?

4. Chapter 20 resurrection is called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it remotely possible that there was a global resurrection before it, that is supposing for some reason this is not the rapture?

Scholar8200:
1 Thess 4 does not describe the rapture as the Day of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I asked WHAT day of the Lord is in this verse verse what you think it is not sir

Paul in chapter 4 speaks of rapture and the DESCENDING of the Lord. He then quickly reminds them NOBODY knows of the time.

Think through this; is it the time Nigeria attained Independence or the events he just described?

And it specifies those involved in verse 4, as those martyred in the Tribulation for Christ distinct from the dead in Christ that arose at Rapture and were called the Bride.

Question is,
Was there a global church resurrection an rapture before it?

If you for a second entertain multiple resurrection, you dig yourself into the theological absurdity. For instance;

Resurrection of the dead happens AT Christ coming yet you place resurrection 1000 years before His COMING

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

Paul is VERY CLEAR on resurrection happening at the coming of Jesus AGAIN!

1 Thessalonians 4:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The ordination oof first and second here is limited to that advent, else what do we say to the resurrection of OT saints after Christ's resurrection in Matthew 27:52,53?[/b]

The reason is simple; ALL recorded resurrections were unto death and they all died again. Jesus is the firstborn from among the dead because his mortality was clothed in immortality. He underwent the transformation we look forward to at His coming

those were Tribulation saints, distinct from the Bride mentioned in Revelations 19:7-9

Again, verse 4 tells us those that lived after that resurrection.

Yes! After the Tribulation, two resurrections will take place: first is for the saints who did not take the mark and were washed in the blood; the second is for the dead.

As explained before,two resurrections are a figment of your imagination because resurrection happens AT the coming of Christ and n before

Could you please POINT out the rapture of the saints in Revelation if this is not it?
Would John omit capturing such a glorious event?

Just to help some here,
There are TWO RESURRECTION in Revelation 20;
1. Of the saints in v4
2. Of 'the rest' mentioned in v5 and which occurs in v12-13

Some theorists like Scholar8200,Image123 and Gombs would have you believe that before the FIRST RESURRECTION here there was another global resurrection of the saints a rapture of the living.

The burden of proof is on them to prove it from scriptures, especially from Revelation. Where is IT?

Meanwhile, let's learn about the resurrection at the LAST DAY


John 6:40 King James Version (KJV)
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 King James Version (KJV)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 King James Version (KJV)
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

This is exactly what Paul records in

1 Corinthians 15:52 King James V ersion (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The event is certainly instantaneous

It is important to listen to the words of Christ on this matter
Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Jesus tells us;
1. The gathering is at His coming just as Paul reiterated
2. The gathering is AFTER tribulation

Visitor700:
I agree with those who say that the rapture will occur during the tribulation because it corroborate the islamic view

What a reason!

vooks:


1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I asked WHAT day of the Lord is in this verse verse what you think it is not sir

Paul in chapter 4 speaks of rapture and the DESCENDING of the Lord. He then quickly reminds them NOBODY knows of the time.

Think through this; is it the time Nigeria attained Independence or the events he just described?


Question is,
Was there a global church resurrection an rapture before it?

If you for a second entertain multiple resurrection, you dig yourself into the theological absurdity. For instance;

Resurrection of the dead happens AT Christ coming yet you place resurrection 1000 years before His COMING

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

Paul is VERY CLEAR on resurrection happening at the coming of Jesus AGAIN!

1 Thessalonians 4:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


The reason is simple; ALL recorded resurrections were unto death and they all died again. Jesus is the firstborn from among the dead because his mortality was clothed in immortality. He underwent the transformation we look forward to at His coming



As explained before,two resurrections are a figment of your imagination because resurrection happens AT the coming of Christ and n before

Could you please POINT out the rapture of the saints in Revelation if this is not it?
Would John omit capturing such a glorious event?

The perspective and purpose of the Great tribulation and other eschatological events and the related OT prophecies about them would be clearly understood if you consider the role of Israel therein-they rejected the Messiah(Christ) and will only be ready to receive Him, their eyes being opened, after the 'exploits' of the Antichrist else what exactly would be the purpose of the Great tribulation? Why not execute judgement immediately?:

Romans 11:1,2b,11,12,15,25
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew
[/b]11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12[b] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[/b]25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; [b]that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

As regards the bolded,
When will the time of the Gentiles come to an end (the commencement of the 70th week in Daniel's prophecy)
When will the Deliverer come to Zion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob? (after the time of Jacob's trouble{great tribulation} at the end of the 70th week)
Where will the Deliverer deliver Jacob, in the air? ( NO, on Earth).
After Delivering Jacob, what next? (He shall rule over all the Earth having descended with His armies, the saints Zechariah 14:5b,9)
Where would those armies of saints be coming from? (Heaven!)

Assignment
Suppose the church would be on Earth when the Deliverer comes to turn ungodliness from Jacob (Israel), what will be the purpose of transforming them (the Church), taking them to the air, and immediately descending to Earth with them?

Gombs:


What a reason!

You don't know anything. Even Islam is expecting the resurrection of the dead and the return of the Messiah, Isa ibn Mariam.

Visitor700 is right and you are wrong. The tribulations are ending and Christ is here.

Scholar8200:
The perspective and purpose of the Great tribulation and other eschatological events and the related OT prophecies about them would be clearly understood if you consider the role of Israel therein-they rejected the Messiah(Christ) and will only be ready to receive Him, their eyes being opened, after the 'exploits' of the Antichrist else what exactly would be the purpose of the Great tribulation? Why not execute judgement immediately?:

Romans 11:1,2b,11,12,15,25
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew
[/b]11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12[b] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[/b]25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; [b]that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

As regards the bolded,
When will the time of the Gentiles come to an end (the commencement of the 70th week in Daniel's prophecy)
When will the Deliverer come to Zion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob? (after the time of Jacob's trouble{great tribulation} at the end of the 70th week)
Where will the Deliverer deliver Jacob, in the air? ( NO, on Earth).
After Delivering Jacob, what next? (He shall rule over all the Earth having descended with His armies, the saints Zechariah 14:5b,9)
Where would those armies of saints be coming from? (Heaven!)

Assignment
Suppose the church would be on Earth when the Deliverer comes to turn ungodliness from Jacob (Israel), what will be the purpose of transforming them (the Church), taking them to the air, and immediately descending to Earth with them?

you are so wrong, u apply the 70 week prophesy of daniel wrongly which is a thoery invented by a catholic jesuit. The 70 week prophesy is talking about the birth and death of christ and not the rapture . The deliverer as already come more than 2000 yrs ago christ is not coming to Save a litral nation of israel which was only founded in 1948 by america. Pls do ur research properly. Google franscisco ribera and john nelson derby.

EMILO2STAY:
you are so wrong, u apply the 70 week prophesy of daniel wrongly which is a thoery invented by a catholic jesuit. The 70 week prophesy is talking about the birth and death of christ and not the rapture . The deliverer as already come more than 2000 yrs ago christ is not coming to Save a litral nation of israel which was only founded in 1948 by america. Pls do ur research properly. Google franscisco ribera and john nelson derby.

Why not establish your position from the Scriptures? we are all here to learn.
The 70 weeks mentioned the Messiah and spoke only of the fact that He would be killed but not for Himself (Isaiah 53:6 explains this). The prophecy ended with the 70th week talking about the activities of the other prince and his abominations that would be ultimately fulfilled during the Tribulation Daniel 9:25-27. Are you saying that Daniel 9 was added by a catholic priest? The Deliverer would come again else if He wont, which Israel /Jacob was Paul speaking of? Now dont tell me it is the Church except if you will help Paul edit Romans 11:1,2! And since the Deliverer had come why did Paul refer to it as something that will happen after the time of the Gentiles?

Scholar8200:
Why not establish your position from the Scriptures? we are all here to learn.
The 70 weeks mentioned the Messiah and spoke only of the fact that He would be killed but not for Himself (Isaiah 53:6 explains this). The prophecy ended with the 70th week talking about the activities of the other prince and his abominations that would be ultimately fulfilled during the Tribulation Daniel 9:25-27. Are you saying that Daniel 9 was added by a catholic priest? The Deliverer would come again else if He wont, which Israel /Jacob was Paul speaking of? Now dont tell me it is the Church except if you will help Paul edit Romans 11:1,2!

. Thank God u admit the messiah will be killed but not for himself which u know is obviously taking about the death of christ, u would notice after that it says the "people of the prince shall come and destroy the city and the holy sanctuary; and the end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined". The people of the prince the bible refers to here is not the antichrist but the son of the roman emperor titus who laid siege on jerusalem and destroyed it, took the israelite captive and laid the land desolate. Now this is simply a prophesy to the ancient nation of israel to make an end of there sins and what would follow if they fail to do so.

vooks:
Just to help some here,
There are TWO RESURRECTION in Revelation 20;
1. Of the saints in v4
2. Of 'the rest' mentioned in v5 and which occurs in v12-13

Some theorists like Scholar8200,Image123 and Gombs would have you believe that before the FIRST RESURRECTION here there was another global resurrection of the saints a rapture of the living.

The burden of proof is on them to prove it from scriptures, especially from Revelation. Where is IT?

Meanwhile, let's learn about the resurrection at the LAST DAY


John 6:40 King James Version (KJV)
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 King James Version (KJV)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 King James Version (KJV)
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

This is exactly what Paul records in

1 Corinthians 15:52 King James V ersion (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The event is certainly instantaneous

It is important to listen to the words of Christ on this matter
Matthew 24:29-30 King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Jesus tells us;
1. The gathering is at His coming just as Paul reiterated
2. The gathering is AFTER tribulation

There is no dichotomy in Christ, no Jew no Gentile. You vooks are my brother. I completely agree with you.

The tribulation ends with the resurrection of the dead which is also the coming of Christ, Christ being the Word of God, which coming is the upgrading of the chosen resurrected ones with the new software of the Word, the circumcision of the heart Deuteronomy 30:6. Not every dead will resurrect in Christ, many dead will resurrect to face shame. There will be no superman Christ flying down from the skies with a cape around his neck, Christ is the Word of God, and His coming is the circumcision of hearts to love and serve God genuinely Hebrews 8:10.

The resurrected ones will have new minds, they will be running on a new software called the Word, they will be God in flesh because they have the mind of God, their hearts will be the temple of God because they have the Word in them.

They will be given incorruptible bodies too. Hardware and software upgrade.

Scholar8200:
The perspective and purpose of the Great tribulation and other eschatological events and the related OT prophecies about them would be clearly understood if you consider the role of Israel therein-they rejected the Messiah(Christ) and will only be ready to receive Him, their eyes being opened, after the 'exploits' of the Antichrist else what exactly would be the purpose of the Great tribulation? Why not execute judgement immediately?:

Romans 11:1,2b,11,12,15,25
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew
[/b]11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12[b] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[/b]25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; [b]that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

As regards the bolded,
When will the time of the Gentiles come to an end (the commencement of the 70th week in Daniel's prophecy)
When will the Deliverer come to Zion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob? (after the time of Jacob's trouble{great tribulation} at the end of the 70th week)
Where will the Deliverer deliver Jacob, in the air? ( NO, on Earth).
After Delivering Jacob, what next? (He shall rule over all the Earth having descended with His armies, the saints Zechariah 14:5b,9)
Where would those armies of saints be coming from? (Heaven!)

Assignment
Suppose the church would be on Earth when the Deliverer comes to turn ungodliness from Jacob (Israel), what will be the purpose of transforming them (the Church), taking them to the air, and immediately descending to Earth with them?

You have your eschatology in reverse my brother.
You imagine a special role of Israel post Calvary, you invent its aspects, and then you use your invention to trash scriptures BIG. You demand subscription to your theories in order to disagree with scriptures. All this is a not so clever digression from the subject at hand.


A simpler assignment
If a heathen turned to Judaism now, would they earn eternal life?

Scholar8200,Image123,Gombs,Joagbaje,
Could you please show me the TWO distinct resurrection of the saints in Revelation?

vooks:

You who believe it is not the last event should also give us bible references.

1Th 4:15 — 1Th 4:17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1. Rapture is the resurrection of the saints

Rapture is the catching up alive of living saints ,not dead saints. Resurrection is the taking up of dead saints and others .

MrPresident1:



Mark 13:24-26
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

So the tribulation isn't just starting, it is ending. And when it ends, Christ will come.

The scriptures you quoted makes reference to the second coming of Christ and not the rapture. The rapture and the second coming are 2 different event. In my understanding, the second coming is at the end of tribulation when Christ returns to the earth with saints from heaven . And deliver Israel as a nation. But the rapture is what ushers the world into the 7 year tribulation.

Joagbaje:


1Th 4:15 — 1Th 4:17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Rapture is the catching up alive of living saints ,not dead saints. Resurrection is the taking up of dead saints and others .

These events happen right next to each other.
The dead in Christ resurrect and are clothed with immortality, the living saints are also clothed in immortality and they meet Christ in the air with the dead in Christ.

While rapture properly describes meeting Christ in the air, it is naturally understood to be the ENTIRE series of events of this day namely;
1. resurrection of the dead unto immortality,
2. the now immortal formerly dead saints meeting Christ in the air,
3. transformation of the living saints to immortality,
4. and their meeting of Christ and the resurrected saints in the air.