Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? - Islam for Muslims (2) - Nairaland
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Confusion In The Islamic Confession Of Faith? (2) (3) (4)
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by Nobody: 10:24pm On Apr 23, 2016 |
true2god: 1 Like
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| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by true2god: 10:29pm On Apr 23, 2016 |
Demmzy15:Nobody makes her to hate saudi arabia. It is a known fact that saudi arabia is largest sponsor of terror worldwide with their wahabi islamic ideology that are exported to pakistan and afghanistan and beyond (who are useful idiots to the saudis, doin their dirty terrorist jobs worldwide). It is also a known fact that the saudis follow the sunnah of the islamic prophet to the letter, beheading whoever insult mohammed or islam, imprisoning whoever owns a bible, killing and jailin the shia and the ahmadiyyas (as infidels and kafir), killing Jews at sight, setting no age limit for girls before they can marry, ensuring that women are covered in black sack (burqa) like masqurade even under the heat of desert sun, etc, Come on, nobody is tarnishing the image of saudi arabia, islam is already evil for all non-muslims to see. 3 Likes |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by QueenSalewa: 10:34pm On Apr 23, 2016 |
true2god: Oh don't be obtuse... Saudi Arabia goes over and beyond implementing the sunnah of the prophet and we both know that. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by true2god: 10:34pm On Apr 23, 2016 |
[quote author=lexiconkabir post=44982474][/quote]Are you calling the quran and the ha-death trash? |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by QueenSalewa: 10:35pm On Apr 23, 2016 |
Demmzy15: Wa alaikum Salam. Haha. Ma worry. I am ready for them. 1 Like |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by true2god: 10:37pm On Apr 23, 2016 |
QueenSalewa:Can you give me instances where saudi arabia acted beyond the sunnah? I am waitin pls. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by true2god: 10:39pm On Apr 23, 2016 |
QueenSalewa:You are a new-comer. Welcome to the real school of islamic theology you can never have in your mosques and madrassas. 3 Likes |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by QueenSalewa: 10:44pm On Apr 23, 2016 |
true2god: E.g.: Banning "western" names like Linda or Alice Not allowing women to drive |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by true2god: 11:16pm On Apr 23, 2016 |
QueenSalewa:You did not include Benjamin in your list. Is Benjamin a western name? Go figure out the reason. Yes, there is no specific hadith or sunnah that prohibits women from riding a horse or a camel, but you dont apply islamic rules in isolation. In an ideal islamic state like saudi arabia, a woman is not expected to go out without a male guardian who can be the father, the husband, the brother or even the son. In one of the hadith, a woman is not expected to move or travel alone. So the saudis are justifying there decision to ban women from driving by citing those al-hadith. A woman driving alone is as good as a woman going out in isolation. What if her car breaks down, wont she have conversation with a strange mechanic which is haram in islam. If she has accident, wont men come to her aid? This is also haram or illegal in islam. So the musftis in saudi arabia must have place religion above personal confort and modernity, so as to continue with the sunnah of the islamic prophet. It is never an over-arching decision. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by QueenSalewa: 12:01am On Apr 24, 2016 |
true2god: I didn't include a bunch of other names either .. That wasn't me trying to be illusive. No, Benjamin is not a western name, it's a Hebrew one. What's your point? Yes, there are islamic sects that believe women shouldn't go out without a guardian (which I don't subscribe to, but that's a topic for another day). But what's that got to do with a woman driving a car. A woman driving a car ≠ a woman driving alone. It's ridiculous and unislamic. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by truthmans2012: 8:18am On Apr 24, 2016 |
QueenSalewa: You really don't know what you are saying. So to you everybody is the first muslim, abi ? Do you know the meaning of "first" ? There is nowhere the quran says "among his people", that is just the formulation of Islamic apologists to justify Qur'an's error. Moses was a Jew, yes or no ? Was it Moses alone as a Jew that had the title "muslim" or did all Jews who followed him who submitted to God also have it? If yes, it means by implication, all Jews are muslims. Why then did the quran still say "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low" (Qur'an 9:29). The people who have been given the Scripture were the Jews and Christians, who the quran says they believed not in Allah. Do you still call those who believed not Allah Muslims? cc: Demmzy15 2 Likes |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by truthmans2012: 8:39am On Apr 24, 2016 |
Demmzy15: What a mess you are saying as usual. Do you believe the contents of those references? Is this the explanation you could come up with to defend the atrocities of Muhammad and his jihadists? Islam is about immoralities of all kinds and the height of wickedness. Raping women in the presence of their husband's before the poor men were beheaded. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by proudkafir: 8:41am On Apr 24, 2016 |
truthmans2012:Thanks man, it seems queensalewa is a novice on nairaland. She will be taught real Islam by we kafir. moses, Jesus, Elijah, etc never knew allahh, called his name or visited kabba and yet the Quran called all of them FIRST MUSLIMS, then Mohammed must be out of his mind. How can you call Jewish prophets, who practiced Judaism, Muslims? There is so much ignorance, lies and double- standard in Islam. 2 Likes |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by QueenSalewa: 9:44am On Apr 24, 2016 |
truthmans2012: Like I have said, first muslim *of their time* is implied. BUT... I accept that the prophets should have said "I am the first submitter of my time" to avoid confusion. Why are you being purposely obtuse? Did you not read what I said about title not organised religion? Yes, Moses was Jewish AND muslim. They weren't mutually exclusive. Everybody that followed Moses was a submitter at that time too. Now that there is a new revelation, CURRENT Jews aren't submitters anymore, but they are People of The Book. It's not rocket science. I'm thankful you posted the whole verse and not just one sentence. The verse says "believe not in God nor the Last Day".... Do Christians believe in God? Yes. Do they believe in the last day? Yes. So obviously that verse is calling out a very specific type of Christian/Jew who despite claiming to be people of the book, did bit actually believe in God or the last day. What the verse isn't saying is "Christians and Jews do not believe in God". What the verse IS saying is "fight the people of the book who do not believe in God and the last day". People who do not/did not believe in God are obviously not muslims, if that's what you're asking. Next. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by ADROIT97kid(m): 10:22am On Apr 24, 2016 |
The critics point to two references from the Quran, 6:14 and
6:161-163, and claim these references show Muhammad as
the first Muslim and then the critics turns their attention to
another verse of the Quran (7;143) concerning Moses being
the first of the believers. Just to further their agenda they
may also highlight other Quranic references indicating there
were Muslims before Muhammed (pbuh) and Moses namely
the first man Adam (S. 2:30, 34-35, 37) and Abraham as
well as other Prophets (S. 4:163, S. 6:84) as believers.
However they mainly use the Quranic verse about Moses
(7:143) and try to put it along side the two concerning
Muhammed (6:14 and 6:163) and they then allege
contradiction/error
The Refutation
Quite simply, the Quran does not claim Muhammed nor
Moses to be the first ever Muslim. The critic imposes a
faulty understanding on the Quranic verses and alleges a
contradiction when there is no contradiction/error.
Despite this it is still thorough and beneficial to offer
explanations in order to clear any confusion as well as help
highlight the errors of the critics in the hope they realise their
mistakes and abjure themselves and eventually become
amongst the guided ones, Insha’Allah
I feel it is logical to begin this simple refutation with
analysing the reference concerning Moses and then we shall
build upon this in a methodical fashion so the reader can
follow with ease. Did the Quran claim Moses to be the first
ever believer?
7:143 sees Moses saying he is the first of the believers.
However, we do see that this is true as he (Moses) was the
first believer amongst his own people.
7:143. And when Mûsa (Moses) came at the time and place
appointed by Us, and his Lord spoke to him, he said: “O my
Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.” Allâh
said: “You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain if it
stands still in its place then you shall see Me.” So when his
Lord appeared to the mountain[], He made it collapse to
dust, and Mûsa (Moses) fell down unconscious. Then when
he recovered his senses he said: “Glory be to You, I turn to
You in repentance and I am the first of the believers.” [2]
Moses does not say he is the first believer ‘ever’. He merely
claims he is the first of the believers and knowing the
context one understands he is not claiming to be the first
ever believer from humankind but the first amongst his
people to believe, this is apparent as it is a relative term to
the “believers” and situational-context tells us that the
believers at the time of Moses were essentially the Children
of Israel and thus we realise that Moses is referring to
himself as the first to believe amongst the Children of Israel.
The critic fails to mention this and tries to present this verse
as meaning Moses is the first ever to believe amongst
humanity, this is unfair and misleading on the part of the
critic especially considering the word “ever” is not in the
verse. There is further clarification of the Arabic phrase of
the Quran ascribed to Moses (“awwalu almumineena”= “first
of the believers”) as there is another reference in the Quran
(26:51) where this term comes up and thus explaining the
meaning of Moses’ statement of being the “first of the
believers (“awwalu almumineena”).
So we use a basic principle of Tafsir (explaining the Quran)
by explaining a verse of the Quran (the verse concerning
Moses, 7143) by using another part of the Quran (26:51).
So what do we learn about the statement of Moses in 7:143
by looking at 26:51?
26:51. “Verily! We really hope that our Lord will forgive us
our sins, as we are the first of the believers [in Mûsa
(Moses) and in the Monotheism which he has brought from
Allâh].” [3]
The context of this verse is Moses going to Pharaoh and
preaching the Message and with the intention of freeing the
enslaved Children of Israel.
The verse (26:51) is teaching us what the sorcerers of the
pharaoh said when they realised that Moses and Aaron were
truthful in their preaching. Thus they became the first to
believe amongst the people of Pharaoh and even use the
same expression as Moses “awwala almumineena”. It is
clear that they are not claiming to be the first ever to believe
as Aaron and Moses (two people who were believers before
them) were in front of them delivering the Message to
Pharaoh and his people and they became believers due to
the preaching (miracles) of Moses by the Will of Allah.
Therefore we realise the term “awwala almumineena” (first
of the believers) in the Quran (7:143) does not mean he is
the first ever believer but it is a relative term. Thus we
realise that both the sayings of Moses (7:143) and the
sorcerers (26:51) are relative to their situations and they are
clearly not referring to themselves as the first ever believers
but it does mean they are the first believers amongst their
own people. We also realise the critics build there argument
upon faulty information as well as error. So now we know
that Moses was not referring to himself as the first ever
believer through the information presented.
However, for thoroughness we can use the same method of
Tafsir (i.e. ‘explanation of the Quran by the Quran’ [6]) to
realise that Moses was speaking relative to his own time
and people. We need look no further than the Quranic
references to Adam (2:30-37) and we deduct that Adam
came before Moses and was a believer therefore believed
before Moses so we realise that the Quran is not presenting
Moses as the first ever believer but as the first believer
relative to the time and place Moses was in (i.e. the first to
believe amongst his people). This is basic Tafsir and logic
which the critic avoids.
The critics have no authority (Tafsir writers such as Ibn
Kathir etc) to support their claims which are merely
erroneous self-imposed understandings based on ignorance
of context and Tafsir. Now we realise that the Quran did not
put forward Moses (or the sorcerers) as the first ever
Muslim (s) we still have the question; did the Quran claim
Muhammed as the first ever Muslim? Well let us focus on
the references in question.
It is not up for debate whether Muhammad (pbuh) was the
first Muslim or not. Quite simply he was the first Muslim in
the sense that Muhammad was the first Muslim (i.e. who
has submitted to God) amongst his own people (the
Quraish) at that particular phase in history. This is
completely correct. Hence there is no contradiction as Adam
was the first Muslim ever while Muhammad was the first
Muslim amongst his own people.
There are two Quranic references (6:14 and 6:162-163) the
critics bring up, so it is appropriate to analyse the two
references. The first of the Quranic references the critics cite
(6:14) shows that Allah instructs Muhammed to “say” (Qul):
“Verily, I am commanded to be the first of those who submit
themselves to Allâh (as Muslims).”:
6:14. Say (O Muhammad SAW): “Shall I take as a Walî
(helper, protector, etc.) any other than Allâh, the Creator of
the heavens and the earth? And it is He Who feeds but is
not fed.” Say: “Verily, I am commanded to be the first of
those who submit themselves to Allâh (as Muslims).” And
be not you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Mushrikûn
[polytheists, pagans, idolaters and disbelievers in the
Oneness of Allâh]. [4]
We also note the same applies to the second Quranic
reference (6:162-163) in that it also begins with Qul (say)
and Mohammed is instructed to say: “… I am the first of the
Muslims”:
6: 162. Say (O Muhammad SAW): “Verily, my Salât (prayer),
my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allâh, the Lord
of the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists). 163. “He
has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I
am the first of the Muslims.” [5]
So we see that Muhammed is being instructed to say these
words and we can refer to Von Denffer concerning Quranic
verses, such as the two cited by the critics (6:14 and
6:162-163), which begin with Qul (say): “More than 200
passages in the Quran open with the word ‘Qul’ (say  , which
is an instruction to the Prophet Muhammad to address the
words following this introduction to his audience in a
particular situation…” [7]
So the natural question is who is Muhammed’s audience for
him to say these words to? The audience were the tribe of
Quraish. The Quraish were Muhammed’s people (tribe) [8]
.Thus they were his foremost audience. Indeed Muhammed
was the first Muslim amongst the Quraish who were a
Pagan tribe.
Also we realise his immediate audience resided in Mecca as
these two Quranic references are form the Meccan period,
this shows that Muhammed’s audience was the Pagan
Arabs of Mecca and the foremost of these Pagans in Mecca
was his own people, the Quraish tribe. Thus we realise that
Muhammad was to teach the Pagan audience in Mecca that
he was the first Muslim. This was the context and we
realise it is relative to the Quraish and thus refers to him
being the first Muslim from amongst the Pagans of Quraish.
Note he was not instructed to say this to Adam or earlier
Prophets nor was he instructed to say this to the whole of
humanity but he was instructed to say it “to his
audience” (pg78) who were primarily the Quraish. How the
critic misses this context is not worth too much thought at
this juncture, the fact of the matter is that the critics
completely miss the context and thus fall into error and onto
the thorny path of misleading others with their erroneous
claims.
Even not knowing the context one can realise that Quran is
not referring to Muhammed as the first ever Muslim as the
Quran does not qualify it with the word ‘ever’! However there
is further unscholarly work on the part of the critic as the
context is again realised through the rest of the verse (6:14)
: And be not you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Mushrikûn
[polytheists, pagans, idolaters and disbelievers in the
Oneness of Allâh]. [4]
This shows that Muhammed was instructed by Allah
through the Quran to speak relatively to his people who were
idolaters/disbelievers (Quraish) Interestingly enough 6:163
uses a similarly structured term as the verse concerning
Moses (7:143, “awwala almumineena”), thus we can deduce
that “Awwalul-muslimeen” is not a term used by the Quran
referring to the first ever Muslim and thus the context needs
to be applied. The context shows that Muhammed is the
first Muslim relative to his own time and place i.e. the first
Muslim amongst his immediate audience (the Quraish) who
were the Mushrikun. It is disheartening to see the critics
would overlook scholarship of explaining the Quran in favour
of their own shoddy, misleading methodology of imposing
their own understanding on the Quranic verses they choose
to use. If they had an ounce of scholarship they would
realise that their own warped understanding should not be
imposed upon the Quran as there is a clear methodology to
explain (tafsir) the Quran.
To further pour humiliation and refutation on the critic’s
claims we can refer to the two undisputed modes of
explaining the Quran; “Naturally, the explanation of the
Quran by the Quran and the explanation of the Quran by the
Prophet are two highest sources for tafsir, which cannot be
matched nor superseded by any other source”. [6]
So let us use the Quran to explain the Quran as “many of the
questions which may arise out of a certain passage of the
Quran have their explanation in other parts of the very same
book, and often there is no need to turn to any sources other
than the word of Allah, which in itself contains tafsir”. [6]
Strangely and worryingly enough we see the critics ignoring
the use of the Quran and the Hadith (of the Prophet
Muhammed) in favour of their own views. This is
intellectual savagery and quite frankly a butchering of the
science of tafsir. Now we know the two primary methods of
explaining the Quran are the Quran and the Hadith (of the
Prophet). So if we use the Quran we realise that Mohammed
is not being put forward as the first ever Muslim as the
Quran (elsewhere) refers to earlier Prophets who are
believers. Hence we realise that the Quranic references
(6:163, 6:14) do not teach us that Muhammed is the first
ever Muslim.
Now to use the other form of Tafsir we need not look further
than these hadith (from the Prophet Muhammed (Sahih
Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 290, Volume 4, Book
55, Number 555 and Volume 1, Book 5, Number 277) to
realise that the Muslims (including Muhammed) never
believed Muhammed was the first Muslim ever as he
mentions other prophets in the past tense and through the
text we realise these prophets are indeed believers who
came before Muhammed’s time, and these Prophets ( who
were believers) existed before Muhammed on this earth and
believed before Muhammed as Muhammed had not even
been born at the time. So this highlights that the Quran is
not teaching us that the Prophet Muhammed is the first ever
Muslim contrary to the fanciful claims of the critics.
To further highlight the misleading vehicle which is the
critic’s claim we can look to the authoritative Tafsir
(explanations) of the relevant verses by the early Muslim
scholars, strikingly enough; none of them hold the belief of
the critics! So, in essence, the critic abandons scholarship,
reasoning and research in favour of their own clouded,
ignorant and embarrassing methodology in order to level an
accusation of contradiction/error at the Quran. This leads
them to arguing a false point and attributing their own
inexact, ignorant and distorted views on the Quran and
claiming a non-existent contradiction.
The fact remains the Quran does not put either Muhammed
or Moses forward as the first ever Muslim. Nor does the
Quran put forward Abraham or anybody after the time of
Adam as the first Muslim. The Quran does not explicitly tell
us who the first ever Muslim was but we can deduce it was
Adam.
Thus it becomes clear that there is no contradiction in the
Quran and we realise that the critics essentially show
themselves to be unscholarly in omitting the context or not
knowing the context and thus rendering their work
misleading, confusing and full of error.
It is thoroughness to mention the other references a critic
may bring up despite these other references not impacting
upon what has been mentioned above, however it is still
beneficial to know what the critic may bring up such as
2:132, this Quranic reference does not mention anybody as
a first Muslim/believer here but critics would bring this up to
show Abraham and Jacob to be Muslims (i.e. Muslims
before Muhammed). This still does not impact on anything
said earlier as the critic argues a straw man and claim the
Quran states something which it does not. I stress again;
the Quran does mention Muhammed or Moses as being the
first EVER Muslims. The context of the Quran is clear, they
(Moses and Muhammad) are the first to believe amongst
their people.
The critic also cites Quranic references about Adam
(2:30-37). Despite these references not exactly saying Adam
was the first Muslim we still know by the way of context and
deduction that Adam was the first believer in God amongst
mankind. This does not impact on the reference concerning
Moses (7:143) who was the first of the believers amongst
his own people and nor does it impact on the references
about Muhammad (6:14 and 6: 161-163) who was
commanded to be and indeed was the first to submit to
Allah amongst his own Pagan people (Quraish)
The other citations (S. 4:163, S. 6:83-87) the critic may
bring forth highlight to us that there were a number of
guided people (Messengers) before Muhammed. This is the
Muslim believe, all Muslims are aware of this so it should be
realised by the critic that this is not knew information to the
Muslim. It is also important to reiterate; none of this impacts
on the fact that Muhammed and Moses were the first to
believe amongst their own people and not the first to believe
(ever) amongst human kind.
Also the more astute critics may point to the religion of
Hanif and followers of the Abrahamic traditions of the past,
however the teachings of Abraham (and Ishmael) became
diluted with the gradual introduction of innovations,
superstitions and idol-worship. Eventually ‘idolatry spread all
over Makkah’ and thus the people left the Abrahamic
teachings [9]. This was many years prior to Muhammed’s
time so this does not impact on what has been said earlier
either. There are traditions of four friends who rejected the
idol-worshipping of Mecca and went out in search of an
alternative, this does not impact on the fact that
Muhammed was the first Muslim amongst the Quraish
either.
Finally, after showing the critics to be wrong, it is worthy of
mention to bring up the concerted efforts of critics in the
past in order to find a critical claim of contradiction/error to
stick (concerning the Holy Quran) despite their past work
and the work of their contemporaries we see that they have
failed and not found anything which people can honestly
call a contradiction in the Quran, all this despite their best
efforts.
Of course Allah knows best and we ask Allah do guide and
help us further. Ameen. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by truthmans2012: 1:10pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
QueenSalewa: You are mixing things up here. Where did you find the Jews and Christians who didn't believe in God? That they believe in God is what made them Jews and Christians. The point is: Which God did they believe in? Note that the Jews and Christians believed in Yahweh not allah. It is because they believed in Yahweh and not allah that made Allah to command Muhammad to fight them. Allah himself made it clear that he is not the same as Yahweh. But it was Yahweh that was God to the Jews and Christians before Muhammad's islam. [Quran109:1-6] 1.Say: O disbelievers! (i.e the Jews and Christians who believed not in Allah as in Qur'an 9:29) 2. I worship not that which ye worship; 3. Nor worship ye that which I worship. 4. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. 5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 6. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. In those verses, there is no ambiguity about Allah differentiating himself from the God of the Jews and Christians and that is the reason they didn't believe in Allah as a strange god. The Jews and Christians knew their God and the ways of their God, but when Allah through Muhammad was introducing the ways of idol worshipers in the name of islam, the Jews and Christians knew Muhammad was not representing their God. Besides, the Bible makes it clear that the world was not expecting islam: Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. It is the Gospel of Jesus God expected people to preach till the end of the world, Muhammad's islam has no place in God's plan of salvation to mankind. Therefore the Jews and Christians had no reason to believe in Muhammad's allah. Kaaba was claimed by Muslims to have been built by Abraham and Ishmael, meaning it had been existing in the time of Moses and Jesus. But neither Moses nor Jesus nor any of Bible prophets visited and venerated it because it was truly built by idolaters for their gods. Allah pretending to be God, cunningly introduced idol worship to people as the worship of God. The way they worship allah in Mecca annually is the say way idolaters worship their idols before Muhammad's islam. How can you worship God and idols the same way? Now tell me, if Abraham truly built Kaaba as a house of God and resort for mankind, why did Moses and Jesus not talk about it or visit the place? Click this link to read more: www.nairaland.com/2644778/islam-meccans-religions-before-it I brought all the analysis to prove to you allah is not the true God and that was why the people of the Book didn't believe in him. The Jews and Christians who submitted to God didn't do so in islamic sense. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by Nobody: 1:26pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
truthmans2012: QueenSalewa its better you leave this old man, he has made it his sunnah to always ask the same questions in different ways when he is replied he will become ignorant deliberately, by Allah! all the issues he raised here on this thread has been refuted countless times.. as you've seen, your discussion with him has been futile, i advice you forget him! |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by truthmans2012: 1:30pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
lexiconkabir: You are a liar !!! What did you say to refute it ? Paste it here and let's see. If you are not a liar you cannot be a muslim. What can you refute? That the quran doesn't say allah is not Yahweh? That Kaaba was not recognized by Bible prophets? 3 Likes |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by QueenSalewa: 3:16pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
truthmans2012: Lol. Why do you group the Christian god with the Jewish god? Repeat what you've just said to any Torah following Jew and they'd call it blasphemy. Jews reject the concept of the trinity. Jews reject the concept of incarnation. Jews reject Jesus as messiah. Jews reject Jesus as any type of divine figure. ...So which "Jewish and Christian Yahweh" are you talking about exactly? |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by truthmans2012: 4:21pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
QueenSalewa: The same Yahweh Jesus represented only that some Jews didn't believe him. All of Jesus disciples were once Jews and many of their converts were once Jews. The Old Testament was the operation of Jewish religion, which is still recognized by the Christians till date. Is that all you have to say? What about Moses and Jesus not recognizing Kaaba? Would they not recognize it if it was truly built by their father Abraham? What about allah declaring himself as a different deity from Yahweh the true God (Quran 109:1-6)? From where did allahh surface to become the God of the muslims when the Bible said only Jesus Gospel was to be preached till the end of the world (Mat. 24:14) ? Which God did Moses the quran fraudulently called Muslim represent, Yahweh or allah ? Who is allah who declared himself as not Yahweh ? Who was God to the Arabs when Moses represented Yahweh and led Israelites on their way to Cannan ? |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by truthmans2012: 4:28pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
QueenSalewa: The same Yahweh Jesus represented only that some Jews didn't believe him. He referred to Yahweh severally as his Father. All of Jesus disciples were once Jews and many of their converts were once Jews. The Old Testament was the operation of Jewish religion, which is still recognized by the Christians till date. They have a common God, Yahweh who they believe differently. Is that all you have to say? What about Moses and Jesus not recognizing Kaaba? Would they not recognize it if it was truly built by their father Abraham? What about allah declaring himself as a different deity from Yahweh the true God (Quran 109:1-6)? From where did allahh surface to become the God of the muslims when the Bible said only Jesus Gospel was to be preached till the end of the world (Mat. 24:14) ? Which God did Moses the quran fraudulently called Muslim represent, Yahweh or allah ? Who is allah who declared himself as not Yahweh ? Who was God to the Arabs when Moses represented Yahweh and led Israelites on their way to Cannan ? On who was the first Muslim, you have to imply that almost all the known prophets were first muslims "among their people". I don't think today's muslims are in the position to imply for the quran, which you claim is complete and perfect. It shows that it is muslims that are now perfecting the quran by implying some meanings and not the quran perfecting them. It means muslims can formulate anything for the quran to make sense.Please note that apart from the ommision of "among his people" which you are now implying, a number of unintelligent errors have been discovered in the quran that faults it as the word of God. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by QueenSalewa: 6:45pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
truthmans2012: Poor reasoning. If I said Allah represents the God of the New Testament you would reject it. You can say Jesus represents Yahweh all you want but Jews do not believe the same. Okay, assuming Jesus referred to Yahweh as his Father. Do Christians do exactly the same? No. Christians go the extra mile and call God Jesus God also. That is idolatry to Jews and therefore isn't the same God. truthmans2012:Truly, I don't know why Moses and Jesus didn't recognise the Kaaba. truthmans2012: The same message you're quoting was also conveyed to Jewish people in the Old Testament: Ecclesiastes 12:13 - "Fear God and keep his commandments (Mosaic Law): for this is the whole duty of man" Malachi 4:4 "Remember ye the law of Moses" Psalm 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning, and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever" So I pose the same question to you, from where did Jesus surface to become the god of the Christians when the Mosaic laws were to be applied forever? Why did Paul, a Christian, call Yahweh's "true", "righteous" commandments a curse in the NT? truthmans2012: Your questioning here is so flawed. It's like asking "who was God to the French when Moses represented Yahweh" (what's my concern with that anyway? or "Does Allah represent Yahweh or Dieu or Olorun" Silly, really. Allah literally means God in Arabic. Allah is not God's name: I'm not claiming it is, the Qur'an isn't claiming it is, so why do you claim it is? Moses represented whatever "god" was in his language. truthmans2012: Implying meaning ≠ unintelligent errors. Where did you learn that? Rather, implying meaning would be as a result of ambiguity, and I'm ready to accept that. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by Ayomivic(m): 7:20pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
QueenSalewa: Can we say every born again christians are muslims if Jesus desciples are Muslims according to Quran? Desciples was called Christian which mean people like christ because people sees the behavious and character of Jesus in them. Which Muhammed had tesified to by calling Jesus and his disciple Muslims(submission) is it wrong to say Muhammed is Chrsitian? (somene like Jesus) to claime muhammed was submmissive like Jesus. The word "Muslim" is Muhammed cunning word to drag all the good men of scripture to his religion.He cunning the name Islam. 1 Like |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by QueenSalewa: 7:59pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
Ayomivic: Have you read the thread so far? I've already answered something like this, but I'll post again. QueenSalewa: Apply that to your question. Ayomivic:Unfortunately, that's not what a Christian is. "Christian" means follower of Christ. Ayomivic:Stop saying Christian means "someone like Jesus", because that's not what the word means. Mohamed was as much of a Christian as Abraham was. Go figure... Ayomivic: Lmao. The funniest thing I've read in this thread so far. You don't think Mohammed invented the Arabic language... Do you?  |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by truthmans2012: 8:46pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
QueenSalewa Truly, I don't know why Moses and Jesus didn't recognise the Kaaba. Here you come. I put it to you that Moses and Jesus didn't talk about Kaaba or visit it because it wasn't built by Abraham. If it was actually built by Abraham as a house of God and resort for ALL MANKIND, all Bibe prophets would have recognized it. It was built by Meccan idolaters for their 360 idols. That allahh said Muslims should continue doing what idolaters were doing annually in Mecca shows allahh is the Devil in disguise as the true God couldn't have directed His people to continue the ways of idolaters, never. So I pose the same question to you, from where did Jesus surface to become the god of the Christians when the Mosaic laws were to be applied forever? Why did Paul, a Christian, call Yahweh's "true", "righteous" commandments a curse in the NT? Jesus had been in existence before the foundation of the world. "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God" ( John 1:1). Jesus is the Word. Quran says Jesus made a clay bird and the bird became real and flew. Meaning Jesus gave life to a lifeless bird. Who has the power to create life if not God ? Your questioning here is so flawed. It's like asking "who was God to the French when Moses represented Yahweh" (what's my concern with that anyway? or "Does Allah represent Yahweh or Dieu or Olorun" Silly, really. When did the French come into existence? Allah was one of the Meccan idols and the idol they worshiped in Muhammad's family. Muhammad's grandfather was Mutaleb, who named his son Abdullai after his idol. Abdullai means servant of allahh, showing that allahh was the idol (god) they worshiped in Muhammad's family. Or which allahh was Mutaleb serving as an idolater ? It was this same allahh the so-called Jubril directed Muhammad to lift up to the status of the true God and that is why you worship allahh today like idolaters worship their idols before islam. The quran confirms this and hadiths also confirm same: Quran 2:158 Pickthall] Lo! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of Allah) or visiteth it, to go around them (as the pagan custom is). And he who doeth good of his own accord, (for him) lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware. So you can see how islamic worship is the custom of pagans. From the hadith: Doing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa is an Islamic ritual associated with the pilgrimage to Mecca. Safa and Marwa are two mounts, located at Mecca. This ritual entails Muslims walking frantically between the two mounts, seven times. This was originally a pagan pre-Islamic practice. Muhammad retained it for Islam, sanctioning it with yet another Qur'anic revelation. Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed:'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710 Now, tell me, why would the true God tell Muslims to continue the ways of the idolaters? This is one of the many reasons why allahh is the Devil in disguise who is pitching muslims against the true God. Implying meaning ≠ unintelligent errors. Where did you learn that? Rather, implying meaning would be as a result of ambiguity, and I'm ready to accept that I didn't say implying means unintelligent error. What I said is, you seem to know better than allahh for trying to imply for the quran to clear its error. Besides this omission of ",among his people", for which reason you are implying for the quran, there are so many other unintelligent errors that are found in the quran. I will show them to you on request. 1 Like |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by proudkafir: 10:18pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
truthmans2012:QueenSalewa, you need to pay for this information. You cannot get this in any mosque or madrassas. truthman2012 please give QueenSalewa your bill. 1 Like |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by proudkafir: 10:21pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
truthmans2012:QueenSalewa, you need to pay for this information. You cannot get this in any mosque or madrassas. truthman2012 please give QueenSalewa her bill. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by Ayomivic(m): 11:35pm On Apr 24, 2016 |
QueenSalewa: christians are followers of Jesus. Muslims are the followers of Muhammed .But who called the follower of Jesus Christsian and why did they called christian? I was nt talked about arabic language but on the words islam and Muslim. these two words were used to deceived people. There is no were in scripture were God gave the name of religion to man kind from the beginning the world.Religion was name by men .Only Muhammed claimed that Allah named his religion islam.Why did Allah not give or reveal that name to Abraham that muslims clamed they follow his foot step? Muhammed was a deceiver. Besides, what Op was proven is that Muhammed contradict himself by saying he was the first muslim and went on to name some people that have gone before him muslim |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by truthmans2012: 7:07am On Apr 25, 2016 |
proudkafir: Thanks bro. QueenSalewa needs real knowledge of Islam, not the lies she was previously taught. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by QueenSalewa: 9:57am On Apr 25, 2016 |
truthmans2012: God doesn't command Muslims to travel to Mecca, actually. Unfortunately, translators of the Qur'an paint Makkah in Saudi Arabia as the place that Abraham built the Kaaba when Makkah is actually mentioned in the Qur'an only once. The Qur'an makes reference to Bakkah, however, as the location where Abraham built the structure. This is why Makkah is always put in brackets, because it doesn't actually say that. truthmans2012: Okay, I know the Bible, and those are your beliefs. But I'm not here to be proselytised to. truthmans2012: If that's your criteria for God then surely Elijah who raised the widow's son from the dead is God too? truthmans2012: How is this relevant? truthmans2012: What Mohammed's grandfather named his son is irrelevant. Allah means God in Arabic. Lobatan. Are you going to tell Arabic speaking Christians and Jews to stop speaking their language? You're literally debating semantics. truthmans2012:The Qur'an allowed the continuation of the pagan practices of the Qurayish in order to make the message of Islam more appealing to the people it was conveyed to. Just like just about every one of the Christian holidays also fall on ancient pagan festivals. truthmans2012:You did. To you, having to imply meaning means unintelligent error. Which is a rich assertion, coming from a Christian. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by Ayomivic(m): 10:26am On Apr 25, 2016 |
Demmzy15: pls, can you point to ill-words used by the guy? Someone provided you Quran's proof with reference and you called it abuse. It seem you never read those things in your Quran or may be you hate truth. |
| Re: Confusion: Who Was The First Muslim ? by truthmans2012: 11:18am On Apr 25, 2016 |
QueenSalewa God doesn't command Muslims to travel to Mecca, actually. Unfortunately, translators of the Qur'an paint Makkah in Saudi Arabia as the place that Abraham built the Kaaba when Makkah is actually mentioned in the Qur'an only once. The Qur'an makes reference to Bakkah, however, as the location where Abraham built the structure. This is why Makkah is always put in brackets, because it doesn't actually say that. Don't say God, say allah as I have proven to you from Quran 109:1-6 that allah is not Yahweh. Yahweh was the God the Israelites were having dealings. Muhammad's allah, his fathers' idol surfaced as Muslims God centuries after Jesus had come and gone. But how can you tell this flaring lie ? How did you get the gut to say allah didn't command Muslims to go to Kaaba? In several passages of the quran we find allah mentioning Kaaba as the house of Allah and the resort for all mankind. In fact, going to Mecca is one of the five pillars of islam. So you have resorted to telling lies because your argument doesn't hold water. Or is it because you are ignorant ? If that's your criteria for God then surely Elijah who raised the widow's son from the dead is God too? Nonsense ! Did Elijah create any life ? He revived a dead person, whose life was already created. Did you hear of any prophet who created life by himself? No prophet could create even an ant. It takes only God to create life, which Jesus did. How is this relevant? Look up, you asked for it. What Mohammed's grandfather named his son is irrelevant. Allah means God in Arabic. Lobatan. Are you going to tell Arabic speaking Christians and Jews to stop speaking their language? You're literally debating semantics. You are making some assertions that am almost tempted to say your reasoning ability is on the low side. How can you say what Muhammad's grandfather named his son is irrelevant? Why do muslims name their children Islamic names and not Sango worshipers name? If you hear somebody name his son Sangotola, what do you think is the father's religion? When Mutaleb named his son Abdullai (Abduallah), meaning servant of allah, a reasonable person should know that it was allah he was worshipping. It shows Allah was his idol as an idolater. You need deliverance if you cannot understand this simple thing !!! The Qur'an allowed the continuation of the pagan practices of the Qurayish in order to make the message of Islam more appealing to the people it was conveyed to. Just like just about every one of the Christian holidays also fall on ancient pagan festivals. So, to make islam appealing to Qurayish, allah had to concede to paganism? What a statement. It would have been better you are silent instead of saying this trash. So allah had to succumb to satanic practices in order to draw the Qurayish, I'm sure other Muslims following this thread must be ashamed of you. Islam is equal to paganism because allah wanted the Qurayish at cost. For Christian festivals, it is not in the Christian Scripture to celebrate those festivals and besides, no pagans celebrate the type of festivals Christians celebrate. Since about my four years on nairaland, I have never met any Muslim with your own type of opinion, probably because you are a Muslim woman. A woman's intelligence in islam is half that of a man. |
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