4kings:


*This glory is also from the foundation of the world.*, which means foreknowledge, so then how could a being with foreknowledge be disappointed of what he already knows.

kilo4sure:

He knows the elect because he chose them before they were born and ordained them for glory, his will however is that all of them whom he has given to Jesus should not be lost. The problem is he doesn't know if they would persevere till the end because of their freewill to choose, this is why Paul himself believed he could be a cast away.

4kings:

Ok
How do u mean he could replace them?
Isn't everyone(Christians) chosen for different purposes? [Note: I'm talking about the same time period]

kilo4sure:

Take Saul as an example, God put Saul as king, Saul misbehaved and then he found David. Saul was replaced with David. The parable of Jesus in which many were selected to come to a feast and they refused, with others taking their place is another example.

honourhim:
Hello brethren, kindly give your views on predestination as recorded in the scriptures quoted below for more understanding to the readers here(including myself).

Romans 8;28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

Also

Ephesians 1;4-6, and 10-12.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[/b]

Does the above scripture imply that those who are born again now and those who will be born again in future are predestined for it? Which means those who are not predestined to be born again will never be no matter what? And those who are predestined to be born again will be no matter what? Kindly contribute for more understanding. Thanks.

Scholar8200:

The highlighted shows that God's plan of redemption is the same as His purpose in Creation - Man being in His Image. And that purpose was meant for ALL men, not a select few. Saying therefore that God has pre-selected some and rejected others is to say there is an addition to that original purpose which is NOT true.
The call comes to ALL those who respond therefore are the ones who enter His purpose determined from the Beginning. You can choose to join the chosen ones by responding or drop from that choice by backsliding.

For example, after the Isrealites made the Golden Calf, Moses made a call and the Levites responded hence God chose them for Himself among the Israelites instead of the firstborn.
Eli was a Levite and his family was specially chosen. But when he and his sons misbehaved, God gave a version of "Whosoever" in 1 Samuel 2:30

30 Wherefore the Lord God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the Lord saith, Be it far from me; [size=15pt]for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.[/size]



Meaning God's Eternal purpose was what underpinned the plan of Redemption. That is why another passage talked about the Lamb slain from the
foundation of the World pointing to the fact that it was an accomplished fact according to God's Eternal Purpose after the fall.(though it took time to be fulfilled).
Now if you consider this passage, it is just an expatiation on Romans 8:29 of being conformed to His Image in accordance to His Original purpose in Genesis 1 for Adam and ALL his descendants.



NO. Else this passages will be a LIE:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that [size=16pt]any[/size] should perish, but that [size=17pt]all[/size] should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:4

honourhim:


OK. But do you think God has foreknowledge of our lives and knows how each of us will make our choices in life and how we will end.?

Scholar8200:
Bible tells us , 'out of the heart are the issues of life" and God knows our hearts and its inclinations and leanings which decide what the will chooses.

It further tells us that there are records in Heaven where our names are written and our deeds not pre-written but as they occur. Implying that there is nothing like, "God has already written all I will do and concluded it with where I will spend eternity even before I was born". This is wrong and erroneous. Else, what purpose do those records serve?

Yes, God has a purpose for each life eg He told Jeremiah that before he was born He purposed that Jeremiah would be a prophet. However, this is not against Jeremiah's will. From Jonah, we see that Jeremiah could choose to follow this purpose or rebel against it.

honourhim:

.
OK. But in the case of Peter, Jesus told him before hand that he Will betray him before the cock crows three times and it happened. In the case of Abraham Gcd told him that his children will be uncountable like the stars but they will be taken into captivity in Egypt and it happened several years later as God said it.
Also Jesus gave an insight to the last days events when his disciples asked him and today we are seeing it. Don't all these confirm God's foreknowledge?

Sunnycliff:
Since GOD is omniscient, it means that he knows what our ends will be and it won't take him by surprise.

He knows he has given everyone the offer of salvation which is free and subject to our choices!

So there is no extremes of predestination rather the choice we make!

Scholar8200:


Foreknowledge of events and as One that knows our hearts(which controls our choices), our responses thereto.

Regarding Peter, Jesus knew this because, being filled with the Spirit, Jesus gave a Word of Knowledge (available to you and me too) that satan wanted to sift Peter and later detailed by what means satan intended but remember Jesus had to pray that his faith would not fail.

honourhim:


Okay. He has foreknowledge of events but not the specific people who will be involved in the event?

Scholar8200:
Sure He calls certain people to play certain roles according to His good purpose. But such call is what it is, a call. They may yield or not. For example, Moses's call was to lead the Israelites to the Promised land but he failed to accomplish it.

Now, didnt Jesus know that Judas was to be the traitor? He did! After all Bible says concerning some that Jesus did not commit Himself to them because He knew what was in them.. Was anything done to prevent this, Yes! Bible says Jesus loved them all hence I believe He must have prayed for them all besides, Jesus spoke of being betrayed openly and he was there.

However, notice the prayer point(faith fails not), and the role Jesus played in ensuring this after Resurrection. Peter was back to fishing but Jesus restored him; Judas, had over-reacted - killed himself.

I perceive Judas had thought the worst will be that, like John the Baptist, Jesus would be imprisoned hence when Jesus warned that woe is he by which the Son of Man goes, his covetousness would have waved it aside!

honourhim:


Your answers are quite educative. Now in the case of Lucifer did God know that Lucifer will fall before creating him? Or did this knowledge come to God after creating him or was the whole thing a surprise to God?

4kings:
@oaroloye
If God is not omniscience, then how do u explain the prophecy of the fate of Abraham's generation declared in Gen15:13.
Also can u pls expatiate a little more on God's limitations and those levels.

oaroloye:


JUST BECAUSE YAHWEH PREDICTED THE FATE OF THE LINEAGE OF ABRAHAM, THAT DOES NOT IMPLY "OMNISCIENCE."

oaroloye:

He did not NAME any of those descendants.

oaroloye:

Only those who OBEYED THE LAWS OF THE COVENANTS benefited specifically from God's Protection.

oaroloye:

Meanwhile OTHER races were going to HELL in quickmarch!

Scholar8200:
Well, the Bible is silent on this. This much is revealed: God knows the end of either options available to us; He knows our hearts and the tendencies therein to either side. Does God know all Lucifer was going to do before creating him, this I cannot tell.

honourhim:


Ok bro.

Here are more biblical verses concerning God's foreknowledge and predestination that i recently came across.

Acts 15;18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Acts 2;22, 23

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, [b]being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

5solas:
Welcome back An2elect2! Quite an age!

hey thank you How are you!

An2elect2:
hey thank you How are you!

5solas:
Fine. Doing fine.

honourhim:


Ok bro.

Here are more biblical verses concerning God's foreknowledge and predestination that i recently came across.

Acts 15;18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Acts 2;22, 23

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4; 27, 28

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.


MAy be we can ponder on this as well and see what lesson to be drawn from it.God bless you.

An2elect2:
There is nothing to ponder on. You just said what it is as it is in the scripture. Bro Scholar is not comfortable with this truth because it robs him of boasting in his "free will" Pls go through the link 5solas provided.

I am happy for you.

5solas:
@honourhim
Concerning the subject, this is a very useful link:
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/are-there-two-wills-in-god

honourhim:


I ve just finished reading it. Quite revealing thanks a lot.

honourhim:
Hello brethren, kindly give your views on predestination as recorded in the scriptures quoted below for more understanding to the readers here(including myself).

[b]Romans 8;28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified


Also

Ephesians 1;4-6, and 10-12.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[/b]

Does the above scripture imply that those who are born again now and those who will be born again in future are predestined for it? Which means those who are not predestined to be born again will never be no matter what? And those who are predestined to be born again will be no matter what? Kindly contribute for more understanding. Thanks.


N.B. Pls note that this thread is not intended to mock God. He is the creator and whatever he want cannot be questioned. I.e. assuming what i think about the above scripture is actually what it means.