shadeyinka:



I understand you, but I think you are trying to force your definition of evil to include anything that causes pain and/or death but its not so.

A promising 12 years old gets electrocuted! If no deliberate intension is involved van we ascribe evil?

A man carelessly driving unintentionally ran over a motorcyclist and killed/maimed him. Is this an evil?

A snake or lion who kills and swallowed/ate a pregnant woman is never called evil. The intension was to eat and NOT to cause pain!

Evil starts and end with an intention to harm or cause pain.

So you see why "We can NOT agree that Natural Disasters which brings strife, pain and death therefore can be termed Evil."

Evil is a Product of Choices we make due to our Free will.

Osama Bin'Ladin could be said to be evil however the people responsible for the Chernobyl nuclear accident in Russia are NOT evil.


Good is also a product of freewill choice.

If I accidentally found N68,000,000 thrown away by a Governor or Politician can I ascribe goodness to such a politician?

However, I a politician gave me N50,000, we can say such a politician is good (at least to me if no ulterior motive was involved)

Ok fine, i concede... let me rephrase it, what is the plan behind Natural disasters?

Smallville10:

Biya, mr. Athiest, why dont u go and ask God by ur self... Am i GOD? Weda he know or not, d thing is satan has been created, man has been created, you have been created, so worry more about ur self on d last day and stop carry satan problem like its ur own. Biko leave me. Inuna?

Lol...ok sir

DoctorAlien:


The gift of freewill will surely be abused, and rebellion against GOD will surely arise. But woe to the person through whom these will come.

Bear in mind that GOD did not create Satan; He created Lucifer.

But he knew he would be satan later on...

KingEtienneSky:
WHERE did Lucifer commit his own sin?

I think you need to start reading this thread from the beginning.

donnffd:
But he knew he would be satan later on...

Well, yes.

donnffd:


Ok fine, i concede... let me rephrase it, what is the plan behind Natural disasters?

There is no plan behind natural disasters!
Its like a Trojan infestation of a computer: some unplanned things happen.

Is it the fault of the manufacturer?
Even the user could have inherited the computer!

Something tampered with the original plan of the earth and that is the main problem every thing we see as bad are just symptoms of the initial infection.

This had always been the Christian Theists position

Y'all defending god, it is well

DoctorAlien:


Satan chose to become proud. Although GOD placed him in an exalted position, he began to think too much of himself and his splendour, and not of the GOD that gave all these to him. He began to feel he deserved homage due only to the Creator, because of his exalted position.

Then he must have been foolish to 'choose' pride despite knowing it's pitfalls. He must have known the futility in besting God. Besides i have reservations that pride is a conscious act rather it's a feeling that comes before the thought of pride. Emotions come when they wish. love hate etc come without active thoughts

Kay17:


Then he must have been foolish to 'choose' pride despite knowing it's pitfalls. He must have known the futility in besting God. Besides i have reservations that pride is a conscious act rather it's a feeling that comes before the thought of pride. Emotions come when they wish. love hate etc come without active thoughts

This leads us to the first post I made on this thread.

shadeyinka:


There is no plan behind natural disasters!
Its like a Trojan infestation of a computer: some unplanned things happen.


Is it the fault of the manufacturer?
Even the user could have inherited the computer!

Something tampered with the original plan of the earth and that is the main problem every thing we see as bad are just symptoms of the initial infection.

This had always been the Christian Theists position

bolded sir...does this mean that the Creator was imperfect afterall, and has,no knowledge that his "perfect plan" will be altered.?

donnffd,

This little summary of mine, though imperfect, might be of help to you:

GOD has always been. He will always be. He is Love and He radiates Love. He wanted to create beings whom He would love, and who will be able to choose to love and serve Him for the loving Creator He is. He would create them with freewill and not as robots without minds of their own. He knew that the gift of freewill will be abused, and that rebellion will arise from one of His creatures with freewill.

What should He do? Not create beings capable of choosing to love Him because one of them would choose not to do so? No. He is able to salvage the situation should one of His creatures rebel and introduce sin. He creates angels, including Lucifer. Lucifer decides not to give the glory to GOD. Sin comes. Satan is cast out. GOD creates man. Man decides to disobey GOD. Sin spreads to man.

GOD will not leave man to suffer. He has provided salvation in Jesus Christ. Receive Him and receive eternal life.

butterfly88:
bolded sir...does this mean that the Creator was imperfect afterall, and has,no knowledge that his "perfect plan" will be altered.?

shadeyinka:


There is no plan behind natural disasters!
Its like a Trojan infestation of a computer: some unplanned things happen.


Is it the fault of the manufacturer?
Even the user could have inherited the computer!

Something tampered with the original plan of the earth and that is the main problem every thing we see as bad are just symptoms of the initial infection.

This had always been the Christian Theists position

LOL!
I am speaking with respect to the user of the hypothetical computer where to the user, unplanned things like sluggishness, crash of HDD, I'd theft etc could occur. By original plan I compare with how the computer was designed to function by the manufacturer.

The Manufacturer handed the computer to the user with a warning: "DO NOT ACCEPT A SOFTWARE FROM UNVERIFIED SOURCE". If the user disobeys the manufacturer and his computer gets infacted, erratic and dangerous computer behaviours could be expected.

This is the state of the Earth: given to Man with an instruction of not violating a command. Of course, man violated the command and a trojan was planted in the earth.

Now your question:
Does it mean that God was caught unawares?
NO!
The fall of man actually serves God the purpose of " weeding out" men who choose not to love and follow God by their volition. It also serve as an avenue to harvest men who will unconditionally love and trust God for such, God need in eternity with Himself.

In the scriptures the overcomes are known as "cloud of witness."

DoctorAlien:
donnffd,

This little summary of mine, though imperfect, might be of help to you:

GOD has always been. He will always be. He is Love and He radiates Love. He wanted to create beings whom He would love, and who will be able to choose to love and serve Him for the loving Creator He is. He would create them with freewill and not as robots without minds of their own. He knew that the gift of freewill will be abused, and that rebellion will arise from one of His creatures with freewill.

What should He do? Not create beings capable of choosing to love Him because one of them would choose not to do so? No. He is able to salvage the situation should one of His creatures rebel and introduce sin. He creates angels, including Lucifer. Lucifer decides not to give the glory to GOD. Sin comes. Satan is cast out. GOD creates man. Man decides to disobey GOD. Sin spreads to man.

GOD will not leave man to suffer. He has provided salvation in Jesus Christ. Receive Him and receive eternal life.

Lol...what makes you think i want eternal life?, wont it get tiring and boring after the first 10,000years?

shadeyinka:




LOL!
I am speaking with respect to the user of the hypothetical computer where to the user, unplanned things like sluggishness, crash of HDD, I'd theft etc could occur. By original plan I compare with how the computer was designed to function by the manufacturer.

The Manufacturer handed the computer to the user with a warning: "DO NOT ACCEPT A SOFTWARE FROM UNVERIFIED SOURCE". If the user disobeys the manufacturer and his computer gets infacted, erratic and dangerous computer behaviours could be expected.

This is the state of the Earth: given to Man with an instruction of not violating a command. Of course, man violated the command and a trojan was planted in the earth.

Now your question:
Does it mean that God was caught unawares?
NO!
The fall of man actually serves God the purpose of " weeding out" men who choose not to love and follow God by their volition. It also serve as an avenue to harvest men who will unconditionally love and trust God for such, God need in eternity with Himself.

In the scriptures the overcomes are known as "cloud of witness."

Lol, i love your writeup and your responses so far, kudos.

But because someone knows the story of Harry potter well, doesnt change the fact that it was imaginary(i use this just as an example).

Your theology might hold up, i give you that but that doesnt mean its foundation is not weak.

donnffd:


Lol...what makes you think i want eternal life?, wont it get tiring and boring after the first 10,000years?

I know that not everybody wants eternal life. People have different choices.

No. It will never be boring throughout eternity.

shadeyinka:



You have placed your premise down in such a way as to conclude that if there is no iota of Evil in God and God "created evil" then its either God is Evil or He doesn't exist!

But, not so fast my friend!

First, EVIL is NOT a thing.

If Evil is not a thing, then is is not a direct creation. Evil must have been a bi-product of creation!

One could argue that the creator is also responsible for the bi-product His creation caused: like man is responsible for the carbon polutulion vehicles cause.

So before explaining the above, we need to define the term evil!

Dictionary Defn:
adjective
Intending to harm; malevolent.
Morally corrupt., Unpleasant.
synonyms
nefarious, malicious, malevolent
antonyms
good
noun (plural evils)


However, Gods definition of Evil is more Generic:
Evil is going against the WILL of God.

The above definition covers both the dictionary definition and more.

For example "consensual fornication" is evil eben though the dictionary definition does not imply so.

Now that we have set the proper ground of understanding, we answer the question "isn't God responsible howbeit indirectly for evil"?

1. Evil is an inevitable consequence of Free will.
2. Creatures of free will commit evil NOT God
3. For Evil not to Exist, creatures of Free will must not exist.
4. It was Gods desire to have both creatures with
I. No free will e.g. Planets, Atoms, Gravity etc AND
ii. Creatures with Free will e.g. Angels, Man

Objective:
Ultimately to select among the Free Willed Creatures those who will Love and Obey Him by their Free Will.

Only such are useful to God!

Conclusion:
Evil is a biproduct of the creation of free will.
Agents of Free will cause Evil and NOT God

I rest my case!

If the creatures were made in the image and likeness of God according to Bible.

If the source of all knowledge (omniscient) and ability (omnipotent) is God, then, whatever the creature knows and can do, is from the body knowledge and ability of God.

The conclusion therefore is that the very source of disobedience to God (evil) is God himself.

The reason therefore for my summary description of bible as a badly written fictional book.

akintom:



If the creatures were made in the image and likeness of God according to Bible.

If the source of all knowledge (omniscient) and ability (omnipotent) is God, then, whatever the creature knows and can do, is from the body knowledge and ability of God.

The conclusion therefore is that the very source of disobedience to God (evil) is God himself.

The reason therefore for my summary description of bible as a badly written fictional book.

Your methods of skepticism is familiar. Are you not lawani (Akin Lawanson)?

donnffd:


I understand you perfectly and i know that Mans inhumanity to man is a product of our free-will, there is no doubt, but what is Good and what is Evil?

You seem to be looking at Evil from only one perspective, Evil with intention, what about Evil without intention?

We can agree good is anything that brings happiness and longevity

We can also agree that Evil is anything that brings suffering, strife, pain ,hardship and ultimately death.

In my post, i said "God created the universe"...which means everything along with it.

We can agree Natural Disasters brings strife, pain and death therefore can be termed Evil.

Even if humans were all christians and obeyed God, Natural Disasters would to cause harm and suffering, so why is that and where did it originate from?

I really hope you understand my point!

NB: I do not blame God for anything, just wondering if people say he is so benevolent then why does Evil exist in the universe?

I speak as humanist

It's all about nomenclature, human beings gave the name "good" to every natural phenomena that elicit pleasant experience and "bad/evil" to unpleasant experience.

Natural phenomena are in themselves neither good nor evil, it's the feeling they elicit in human experience that creates the labeling of good or evil.

For example, for an old man that is terminally ill of painful cancer, death will elicit feeling of good.
But death will elicit the feeling of evil in a non terminally ill young man.

My conclusion therefore is, the origin or source of evil (a labeling) is unpleasant response to natural phenomena.


Religious/Gods beliefs are mere concepts of human imagination built on assumptions (no empirical facts or evidences). The Gods that came from nothing can only explain nothing.

Even if one assume that Gods exist, the very God that's claimed to be good, is the very source of evil. Since he's the source/creator of everything.

donnffd:


Lol...what makes you think i want eternal life?, wont it get tiring and boring after the first 10,000years?

How about in a place where time doesn't exist..then 999,999,999,000 earth years would go without you knowing.

Even if men colonized Mars, we would use Mars timings isn't it?

donnffd:


Lol, i love your writeup and your responses so far, kudos.

But because someone knows the story of Harry potter well, doesnt change the fact that it was imaginary(i use this just as an example).

Your theology might hold up, i give you that but that doesnt mean its foundation is not weak.

LOL!
You claim that the foundation is weak only on the assumption that every fact must be physical to be valuable. But not every event is physical!

Spiritual things can be understood to a large extent..its not all about faith. Experience also reinforce both the understanding and faith.

Weak Foundation? No! No!! No!!!

akintom:



If the creatures were made in the image and likeness of God according to Bible.

If the source of all knowledge (omniscient) and ability (omnipotent) is God, then, whatever the creature knows and can do, is from the body knowledge and ability of God.

The conclusion therefore is that the very source of disobedience to God (evil) is God himself.

The reason therefore for my summary description of bible as a badly written fictional book.

I think your premise is very wrong. The fact that man was made in the image of God does not imply that man was a copy of God.

Just imagine a scientist building a humanoid robot. He would make him not of flesh and blood but of plastics, metals, microprocessors etc. And this robot even if he looks on the outside like man is NOT man but a robot.

In the image of God simply means as a Trinity ( Body, Soul and Spirit).
If man was made omniscient, he could NEVER sin!

shadeyinka:



Your intention was to kill and maim in the process of achieving your goal. This is evil.

You don't need to contend against every theist position. We all learn from each other.

Being objective helps us separate emotional bursts from statement of truth.

Chairman!
Evil is not just all about intention. It's an aftermath of an action or event.
Poverty is evil, the effect of floor is evil, plague is evil. All these have nothing to do with intention yet we can call them evil.

shadeyinka:



I think your premise is very wrong. The fact that man was made in the image of God does not imply that man was a copy of God.

Just imagine a scientist building a humanoid robot. He would make him not of flesh and blood but of plastics, metals, microprocessors etc. And this robot even if he looks on the outside like man is NOT man but a robot.

In the image of God simply means as a Trinity ( Body, Soul and Spirit).
If man was made omniscient, he could NEVER sin!

Thank you for your response,

Can you please explain the meaning of the "God created man in his image and likeness" according to the book of genesis.

frank317:


Chairman!
Evil is not just all about intention. It's an aftermath of an action or event.
Poverty is evil, the effect of floor is evil, plague is evil. All these have nothing to do with intention yet we can call them evil.

I believe I answered a similar post:

shadeyinka:



You have placed your premise down in such a way as to conclude that if there is no iota of Evil in God and God "created evil" then its either God is Evil or He doesn't exist!

But, not so fast my friend!

First, EVIL is NOT a thing.

If Evil is not a thing, then is is not a direct creation. Evil must have been a bi-product of creation!

One could argue that the creator is also responsible for the bi-product His creation caused: like man is responsible for the carbon polutulion vehicles cause.

So before explaining the above, we need to define the term evil!

Dictionary Defn:
adjective
Intending to harm; malevolent.
Morally corrupt., Unpleasant.
synonyms
nefarious, malicious, malevolent
antonyms
good
noun (plural evils)


However, Gods definition of Evil is more Generic:
Evil is going against the WILL of God.

The above definition covers both the dictionary definition and more.

For example "consensual fornication" is evil eben though the dictionary definition does not imply so.

Now that we have set the proper ground of understanding, we answer the question "isn't God responsible howbeit indirectly for evil"?

1. Evil is an inevitable consequence of Free will.
2. Creatures of free will commit evil NOT God
3. For Evil not to Exist, creatures of Free will must not exist.
4. It was Gods desire to have both creatures with
I. No free will e.g. Planets, Atoms, Gravity etc AND
ii. Creatures with Free will e.g. Angels, Man

Objective:
Ultimately to select among the Free Willed Creatures those who will Love and Obey Him by their Free Will.

Only such are useful to God!

Conclusion:
Evil is a biproduct of the creation of free will.
Agents of Free will cause Evil and NOT God

I rest my case!

Another similar post:

shadeyinka:



I understand you, but I think you are trying to force your definition of evil to include anything that causes pain and/or death but its not so.

A promising 12 years old gets electrocuted! If no deliberate intension is involved van we ascribe evil?

A man carelessly driving unintentionally ran over a motorcyclist and killed/maimed him. Is this an evil?

A snake or lion who kills and swallowed/ate a pregnant woman is never called evil. The intension was to eat and NOT to cause pain!

Evil starts and end with an intention to harm or cause pain.

So you see why "We can NOT agree that Natural Disasters which brings strife, pain and death therefore can be termed Evil."

Evil is a Product of Choices we make due to our Free will.

Osama Bin'Ladin could be said to be evil however the people responsible for the Chernobyl nuclear accident in Russia are NOT evil.


Good is also a product of freewill choice.

If I accidentally found N68,000,000 thrown away by a Governor or Politician can I ascribe goodness to such a politician?

However, I a politician gave me N50,000, we can say such a politician is good (at least to me if no ulterior motive was involved)

Not everything can be typified as good or evil.
A Knife is very useful but can also be used for murder.

Would we say that a Bokoharam knife used to slaughter 100 people is evil? No! It is the people Bokoharam that is evil.

lordnicklaus:

Your methods of skepticism is familiar. Are you not lawani (Akin Lawanson)?

Can you please be decent and sincere in your engagement?

Well, if you must know, and for the purpose of helping your assumption, am Thomas akingbade. You can check me out on Facebook.

Do well to engage on facts and not irrelevant side kicks

shadeyinka:



I believe I answered a similar post:


Another similar post:


Not everything can be typified as good or evil.
A Knife is very useful but can also be used for murder.

Would we say that a Bokoharam knife used to slaughter 100 people is evil? No! It is the people Bokoharam that is evil.

"Creation" of free will is the cause of evil. Evil is the by product of free will. God gave us free will which brought about evil.
God is all knowing, he knew that free will will bring about evil. It's obvious thay without free will, there will be no evil. The creator of free will is the source of evil. GOD IS the source of evil.
Seriously, what does this ur God really want?

akintom:


Thank you for your response,

Can you please explain the meaning of the "God created man in his image and likeness" according to the book of genesis.

In summary:
Angels were made a Duality (Soul and Spirit)
Animals were made a Duality (Body and Soul)
Man was Made a Trinity (Body, Soul and Spirit)

God is a Trinity (The Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit)

Man would have been no better than animals except for the fact that God breath into Adam (His Spirit) and Adam became a Living Soul (Eternal Soul)

Man was created to be the Overseer of Everything God made on the Earth as God is the Overseer of the whole universe!

akintom:



I speak as humanist

It's all about nomenclature, human beings gave the name "good" to every natural phenomena that elicit pleasant experience and "bad/evil" to unpleasant experience.

Natural phenomena are in themselves neither good nor evil, it's the feeling they elicit in human experience that creates the labeling of good or evil.

For example, for an old man that is terminally ill of painful cancer, death will elicit feeling of good.
But death will elicit the feeling of evil in a non terminally ill young man.

My conclusion therefore is, the origin or source of evil (a labeling) is unpleasant response to natural phenomena.


Religious/Gods beliefs are mere concepts of human imagination built on assumptions (no empirical facts or evidences). The Gods that came from nothing can only explain nothing.

Even if one assume that Gods exist, the very God that's claimed to be good, is the very source of evil. Since he's the source/creator of everything.

I could not agree with you more...

frank317:


"Creation" of free will is the cause of evil. Evil is the by product of free will. God gave us free will which brought about evil.
God is all knowing, he knew that free will will bring about evil. It's obvious thay without free will, there will be no evil.

You are perfectly correct up to this point!

frank317:

The creator of free will is the source of evil. GOD IS the source of evil.
Seriously, what does this ur God really want?

Can we ascribe the cause of death of thousands of innocent people to the creator of Boeing 747 or Toyota Hilux? Did the builder of these two transport devices know that it will cause the death of people? Are they then Evil?

Would it be better not to create Boeing 747 or Toyota Hilux because of foreknowledge that they will cause death?

So, you see that your basis of conclusion isn't valid

donnffd:


I could not agree with you more...

akintom:



I speak as humanist

It's all about nomenclature, human beings gave the name "good" to every natural phenomena that elicit pleasant experience and "bad/evil" to unpleasant experience.

Natural phenomena are in themselves neither good nor evil, it's the feeling they elicit in human experience that creates the labeling of good or evil.

For example, for an old man that is terminally ill of painful cancer, death will elicit feeling of good.
But death will elicit the feeling of evil in a non terminally ill young man.

My conclusion therefore is, the origin or source of evil (a labeling) is unpleasant response to natural phenomena.


Religious/Gods beliefs are mere concepts of human imagination built on assumptions (no empirical facts or evidences). The Gods that came from nothing can only explain nothing.

Even if one assume that Gods exist, the very God that's claimed to be good, is the very source of evil. Since he's the source/creator of everything.

Critical analysis of the bolded will lead to a conclusion of "Not True!".

I feel sad : a lady turned me down!
I am sad: I failed my medical exam!
I feel pain: my 98 year old Grandma died!

Evil is NOT defined by Feeling.

You agreed with his submission because you have the same conclusion that God doesn't Exist.

shadeyinka:






Critical analysis of the bolded will lead to a conclusion of "Not True!".

I feel sad : a lady turned me down!
I am sad: I failed my medical exam!
I feel pain: my 98 year old Grandma died!

Evil is NOT defined by Feeling.

You agreed with his submission because you have the same conclusion that God doesn't Exist.

Personally, i believe evil encompasses both intentionality and natural.

Intention: Mans inhumanity to man, slavery, rape, murder, genocide, wars, racism, homophobia, e.t.c... these are evils that we bring upon ourselves.

Natural: hurricanes, earthquakes, flooding, asteroid strike, solar radiation, diseases, a baby born with cancer...these are natural evils in which we have absolutely have no control over.

The former can be attributed to free will like you said, and i agree whole heartedly while the latter, well the latter is really indifferent about us and our feelings, and since evil is a feeling being created on a third party, Nature most times feel evil to us, but this is exactly the kind of universe you would expect to live in if there was no benevolent, all powerful, all loving creator who wants the best for us.

shadeyinka:



Can we ascribe the cause of death of thousands of innocent people to the creator of Boeing 747 or Toyota Hilux?

Yes we can ascribe the source of death of thousands to them if they know their creation will definitely lead to death. If they claim they know that the plain will definitely crash, they should be sued.

Did the builder of these two transport devices know that it will cause the death of people? Are they then Evil?

They don't know... We can't say they are evil. I recall Honda once recalled one of their models because they found out it was faulty and was causing life. U see as humans, our uncertainty about life is why we depend on trial and error to survive. It sounds so unbelievable that ur so called every every God is also unto trial and error.

Would it be better not to create Boeing 747 or Toyota Hilux because of foreknowledge that they will cause death?

Who gave humans foreknowledge that it will cause death? Are humans now God too? Do u know the safty precautions these manufacturers apply before releasing their products? If they have foreknowledge of how it will cause death they instantly take necessary precautions. If they had foreknowledge of how their products will cause death, they will make a perfect product.

So, you see that your basis of conclusion isn't valid

Nope, they basis of my conclusion is perfectly valid. U are just refusing to think this through and I wonder why.