shadeyinka:


In summary:
Angels were made a Duality (Soul and Spirit)
Animals were made a Duality (Body and Soul)
Man was Made a Trinity (Body, Soul and Spirit)

God is a Trinity (The Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit)

Man would have been no better than animals except for the fact that God breath into Adam (His Spirit) and Adam became a Living Soul (Eternal Soul)

Man was created to be the Overseer of Everything God made on the Earth as God is the Overseer of the whole universe!

OK, based on your summary, i have two questions for you:
I will ask one now, and the second after.

1. God is both Spirit and soul, just like the angels. Also man is both spirit and soul encased in material body.

If the soul is the source of personal attributes (learning, memory, anger, joy, jealousy, sympathy, empathy etc). Since both man and God share these attributes, this is my question:

Is this the basis for the "God created man in his image and likeness"?

As guide for you, know this, and in case you already know, pls remember that:

God is a soul that is encased in spirit and man is a soul encased in material body.

shadeyinka:






Critical analysis of the bolded will lead to a conclusion of "Not True!".

I feel sad : a lady turned me down!
I am sad: I failed my medical exam!
I feel pain: my 98 year old Grandma died!

Evil is NOT defined by Feeling.

You agreed with his submission because you have the same conclusion that God doesn't Exist.

You obviously didn't understand my submission.

First, the question is Strictly on what is the ORIGIN of EVIL?

My answer is this:

The origin of evil is the expression or manifestation of unpleasant experience in response/reaction to natural phenomenon.

The implicative veracity of this my definition is that, if you don't respond to natural phenomenon by show of unpleasantness, evil can't exist; evil or good exist/originate from human response to natural phenomenon.

For example, death is a natural phenomenon: it can create the followings:

*unpleasant experience (evil) - death of MKO

*pleasant experience (good) - death of Gen Abacha

* mixed experience (evil and good) - death of bed ridden old man

From the above, death is a constant, but the responses are varied.

Therefore, death is not the origin of evil, it's the response to death that creates evil.

akintom:


Can you please be decent and sincere in your engagement?

Well, if you must know, and for the purpose of helping your assumption, am Thomas akingbade. You can check me out on Facebook.

Do well to engage on facts and not irrelevant side kicks

I'm sorry. I mistook you for someone whose skeptical view is quite similar to yours.

lordnicklaus:

I'm sorry. I mistook you for someone whose skeptical view is quite similar to yours.

It's ok brother/sister, whichever applies.

donnffd:


Personally, i believe evil encompasses both intentionality and natural.

Intention: Mans inhumanity to man, slavery, rape, murder, genocide, wars, racism, homophobia, e.t.c... these are evils that we bring upon ourselves.

Natural: hurricanes, earthquakes, flooding, asteroid strike, solar radiation, diseases, a baby born with cancer...these are natural evils in which we have absolutely have no control over.

The former can be attributed to free will like you said, and i agree whole heartedly while the latter, well the latter is really indifferent about us and our feelings, and since evil is a feeling being created on a third party,

Nature most times feel evil to us, but this is exactly the kind of universe you would expect to live in if there was no benevolent, all powerful, all loving creator who wants the best for us.

I think you are redefining the term evil to accommodate you line of thought. Let me give you some vivid examples and then check whether they can be called evil
-I fell from the top of a 12 storey building and died:
-My hand accidentally entered the blade cage of a grass mower and my hands were torn to shreds.
-The gas tank of a car exploded killing a newly born baby and her mom.
-A ten year old and his 4 year old brother drowned in the swimming pool
Etc etc

You can see that bad things do happen but we cannot label them as evil unless is was deliberately orchestrated by a person.

In all cases above, the human feeling is touched negatively in an unwanted manner but we don't label them as evil.

The second is your bolded number 2.
There is the law of action and reaction and everything we do has a consequence that resonates down to our unborn generation.

Christian theists have always said that the God of Love gave Man a Perfect world (with an insrltuction to live with). Man broke the instruction and a "malevolent code" began to operate in the world to destroy " the perfect world".

Why doesn't God "reset" the world to a perfect state?
Because it serves His purpose: it is an exam by which people choose willingly and unconditionally to trust and love God irrespective of whether they had it extremely good or bad.

At the end of the day, His own are selected and then only, the Heavens and the Earth are reset!

akintom:


You obviously didn't understand my submission.

First, the question is Strictly on what is the ORIGIN of EVIL?

My answer is this:

The origin of evil is the expression or manifestation of unpleasant experience in response/reaction to natural phenomenon.

The implicative veracity of this my definition is that, if you don't respond to natural phenomenon by show of unpleasantness, evil can't exist; evil or good exist/originate from human response to natural phenomenon.

For example, death is a natural phenomenon: it can create the followings:

*unpleasant experience (evil) - death of MKO

*pleasant experience (good) - death of Gen Abacha

* mixed experience (evil and good) - death of bed ridden old man

From the above, death is a constant, but the responses are varied.

Therefore, death is not the origin of evil, it's the response to death that creates evil.

I guess the proper word you should use is BAD, TERRIBLE, UNPLEASANT etc and not EVIL.

Dictionary definition does not support your view.

Evil is strictly defined by a seen or unseen Personality with the intention of Harming or Causing Pain.

The method used is not important, it is the Personality behind the tool that is the focus.

-A hammer falling on my thumb is not evil
-The event of the hammer falling on my hand is not evil

However if a Person uses the hammer on my thumb, such a person is evil.


The Origin of Evil is always a Personality!

shadeyinka:


I think you are redefining the term evil to accommodate you line of thought. Let me give you some vivid examples and then check whether they can be called evil
-I fell from the top of a 12 storey building and died:
-My hand accidentally entered the blade cage of a grass mower and my hands were torn to shreds.
-The gas tank of a car exploded killing a newly born baby and her mom.
-A ten year old and his 4 year old brother drowned in the swimming pool
Etc etc

You can see that bad things do happen but we cannot label them as evil unless is was deliberately orchestrated by a person.

In all cases above, the human feeling is touched negatively in an unwanted manner but we don't label them as evil.

The second is your bolded number 2.
There is the law of action and reaction and everything we do has a consequence that resonates down to our unborn generation.

Christian theists have always said that the God of Love gave Man a Perfect world (with an insrltuction to live with). Man broke the instruction and a "malevolent code" began to operate in the world to destroy " the perfect world".

Why doesn't God "reset" the world to a perfect state?
Because it serves His purpose: it is an exam by which people choose willingly and unconditionally to trust and love God irrespective of whether they had it extremely good or bad.

At the end of the day, His own are selected and then only, the Heavens and the Earth are reset!

@bolded, Nope i am not, that would be intellectual dishonesty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_evil

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/arguments-for-atheism/the-problem-of-evil/the-argument-from-natural-evil/

http://www.reasons.org/articles/natural-evil-or-moral-evil

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/rs/god/chgoodandevilrev1.shtml

http://www.crivoice.org/evil.html

All you need to do is google the two types of Evil, it is not something i just made up, this is grounded in philosophy and theology.

So when you realize i ddnt make that up, you would be faced with the question i have always asked, why would a good God allow Natural Evil?

shadeyinka:


I guess the proper word you should use is BAD, TERRIBLE, UNPLEASANT etc and not EVIL.

Dictionary definition does not support your view.

Evil is strictly defined by a seen or unseen Personality with the intention of Harming or Causing Pain.

The method used is not important, it is the Personality behind the tool that is the focus.

-A hammer falling on my thumb is not evil
-The event of the hammer falling on my hand is not evil

However if a Person uses the hammer on my thumb, such a person is evil.


The Origin of Evil is always a Personality!

Evil

adjective

morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
harmful; injurious: evil laws.

adjective

characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.

noun

that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: to choose the lesser of two evils.
the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.

My contribution addressed the adjectival part of the word evil, therefore am not wrong as far as dictionary meaning is concerned. I wouldn't know the dictionary of your reference.

Now as a noun, a agree with you that it's personality. Which support my conclusion that;

it's the innate moral capacity of man that defines what offence is and what it's not.

Therefore, the claim that Satan is the origin of offence/sin is mere religious assumption.

akintom:


OK, based on your summary, i have two questions for you:
I will ask one now, and the second after.

1. God is both Spirit and soul, just like the angels. Also man is both spirit and soul encased in material body.

If the soul is the source of personal attributes (learning, memory, anger, joy, jealousy, sympathy, empathy etc). Since both man and God share these attributes, this is my question:

Is this the basis for the "God created man in his image and likeness"?

As guide for you, know this, and in case you already know, pls remember that:

[s]God is a soul that is encased in spirit and man is a soul encased in material body[/s].

A spirit is not confined to any dimension so also the soul, so its difficult to say the soul is encased in the spirit...although it can be inferred because both can exist within the body.

I am trying to be careful answering your question as you are putting BIG words into my mouth.

However, I will try to attempt your question.
Is this the basis for the "God created man in his image and likeness"?

No one is sure if it is the basis or not!
What we are sure of is what He said about Himself.

1. God is a Spirit.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit:
2. God has Manifested Himself as
The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit

God is not easy to describe: way too much for our comprehension. We can only speculate to the limit of human understanding.

Now in 1 & 2 above, we are scripturally covered. Now any other things I am going to say henceforth is MY PERSONAL INTERPRETATION AND UNDERSTANDING. They do not reflect Gods position, I could be wrong because I am going beyond what is expressly revealed.

With that in view, my understanding/speculation:

The Father: (Self/Internal Identity)
The Word: (Expression Identity)
The Holy Spirit: (Spiritual Identity)

-The Father seems to function as the Soul is to Man.
-The Word expresses & communicates the Will of the Father as the Human body Expresses the Will of the soul (in the physical rhelm)
-The Holy Spirit expresses the Power/Authority of the Father.

This is the nearest I can describe God in humans terms (I am sure that my view is a terribly inadequate description).

A man is far much easier to describe:
Body: Physical Identity(How he is identified in the physical rhelm/expressesnthe will of the soul)
Soul: (How he Identifies himself/seat of his intellect,emotion and will)
Spirit: (How he is identified in the spirit rhelm)


Now, is this the basis for the "God created man in his image and likeness?

I DONT KNOW!
I can only speculate as God did NOT explain this concept of " in His Image"!

[size=5pt] I will want to apologize to my christian brothers who might feel different. I am just trying to humanly do that which is impossible to do in the hope of answering a question. [/size]

Dear akintom,
The above is presented at the risk of being very wrong!
It is really impossible to describe God with respect to His Image.

Your second question?

frank317:


Yes we can ascribe the source of death of thousands to them if they know their creation will definitely lead to death. If they claim they know that the plain will definitely crash, they should be sued.

They don't know... We can't say they are evil. I recall Honda once recalled one of their models because they found out it was faulty and was causing life. U see as humans, our uncertainty about life is why we depend on trial and error to survive. It sounds so unbelievable that ur so called every every God is also unto trial and error.

Is it about Trial and Error? NO!
The natural consequence of Free Will is disobedience!
If you don't want disobedience then don't give free will.

But God wants those who will by their free volition choose to love and trust Him.

This is more important to God than the risk of disobedience!

Nigeria chose electric power at 230V over 110V even though they knew that 230V is likely to kill more people. Were they evil? Even the 120V kills; should we ban electricity because of this?

Statistically, if I produced a vehicle whether I like it or not people will have accident and DIE. As a Medical Doctor, whether I like it or not, I will make mistakes that will threaten the life of my patient. As a mechanic, whether I like it or not, I will cause damage to a car I am supposed to repair.

The only way out is NOT to build, repair, drive etc. I don't know any make of Plane or Car that hasn't crashed within Tue firstb10 years of operation.

The point is that the creators of these inventions knew the risks but went ahead for the overall good.

frank317:

Who gave humans foreknowledge that it will cause death? Are humans now God too? Do u know the safty precautions these manufacturers apply before releasing their products? If they have foreknowledge of how it will cause death they instantly take necessary precautions. If they had foreknowledge of how their products will cause death, they will make a perfect product.

Nope, they basis of my conclusion is perfectly valid. U are just refusing to think this through and I wonder why.

LOL.
Most of the cause of death from an invention is NOT from the manufacturer. A Boeing 747 is supposed to be serviced every 230,000 km. The airline operator differed service till km368,000. A drunk man drove his Toyota Hilux at 150km/hr and ran under a trailer. A medical personnel accidentally gave dextrose to a patient in diabetic shock.


That is why every manufacturer gives the users a set of instructions we call user manual. Violations of the Rules sometimes cause Fatal consequences that can never be the fault of the manufacturer!

No my friend. All these inventions were designed to help humanity BUT the USERs are imperfect. They make mistakes by omission or commission.

It is NOT the Fault of the Manufacturer...most times it is the fault of the user. That is my argument!

shadeyinka:



You have placed your premise down in such a way as to conclude that if there is no iota of Evil in God and God "created evil" then its either God is Evil or He doesn't exist!

But, not so fast my friend!

First, EVIL is NOT a thing.

If Evil is not a thing, then is is not a direct creation. Evil must have been a bi-product of creation!

One could argue that the creator is also responsible for the bi-product His creation caused: like man is responsible for the carbon polutulion vehicles cause.

So before explaining the above, we need to define the term evil!

Dictionary Defn:
adjective
Intending to harm; malevolent.
Morally corrupt., Unpleasant.
synonyms
nefarious, malicious, malevolent
antonyms
good
noun (plural evils)


However, Gods definition of Evil is more Generic:
Evil is going against the WILL of God.

The above definition covers both the dictionary definition and more.

For example "consensual fornication" is evil eben though the dictionary definition does not imply so.

Now that we have set the proper ground of understanding, we answer the question "isn't God responsible howbeit indirectly for evil"?

1. Evil is an inevitable consequence of Free will.
2. Creatures of free will commit evil NOT God
3. For Evil not to Exist, creatures of Free will must not exist.
4. It was Gods desire to have both creatures with
I. No free will e.g. Planets, Atoms, Gravity etc AND
ii. Creatures with Free will e.g. Angels, Man

Objective:
Ultimately to select among the Free Willed Creatures those who will Love and Obey Him by their Free Will.

Only such are useful to God!

Conclusion:
Evil is a biproduct of the creation of free will.
Agents of Free will cause Evil and NOT God

I rest my case!

Good is also not a thing

donnffd:


@bolded, Nope i am not, that would be intellectual dishonesty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_evil

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/arguments-for-atheism/the-problem-of-evil/the-argument-from-natural-evil/

http://www.reasons.org/articles/natural-evil-or-moral-evil

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/rs/god/chgoodandevilrev1.shtml

http://www.crivoice.org/evil.html

All you need to do is google the two types of Evil, it is not something i just made up, this is grounded in philosophy and theology.

So when you realize i ddnt make that up, you would be faced with the question i have always asked, why would a good God allow Natural Evil?

I read up all the links and honestly, I wasn't impressed because except for the last link were written from an Atheistic point of view. Someone somewhere has redefined evil as either
1. Moral or
2. Natural
And the last link even though from Theistic point of view did not analyse the word Natural Evil before jumping at an explanation.

To help Atheists, let me suggest a third alternative
3. Artificial Evil.
- the engines of an aircraft packed up mid-air for no reason.
- my parachute tore mid-air at a weak seam.
- a guy slipped in the Lab and conc HCl bottle fell and broke over a cute classmate
-cooking gas explodes because the hose is leaking

I agree, you didn't invent the term BUT it is wrong.
Check your dictionary: usually not biased when it comes to religious affairs they say something else.

Check! The Proponents of Natural Evil after defining it goes to the next level to ask the question: "If God is good, why does He allow Evil?".

If I eat a chicken, is that evil?
If a lion ate a goat, is that evil?
Now if a lion eat me, why would it be evil? (Natural Evil)
Now, If I ate another man, that will be evil! Wouldn't it?

I am sure you know that not everything on the internet is correct.


Now, your question even though I have answered it before: " Why would a good God allow what you defined as natural evil?"

shadeyinka:




LOL!
I am speaking with respect to the user of the hypothetical computer where to the user, unplanned things like sluggishness, crash of HDD, I'd theft etc could occur. By original plan I compare with how the computer was designed to function by the manufacturer.

The Manufacturer handed the computer to the user with a warning: "DO NOT ACCEPT A SOFTWARE FROM UNVERIFIED SOURCE". If the user disobeys the manufacturer and his computer gets infacted, erratic and dangerous computer behaviours could be expected.

This is the state of the Earth: given to Man with an instruction of not violating a command. Of course, man violated the command and a trojan was planted in the earth.

Now your question:
Does it mean that God was caught unawares?
NO!
The fall of man actually serves God the purpose of " weeding out" men who choose not to love and follow God by their volition. It also serve as an avenue to harvest men who will unconditionally love and trust God for such, God need in eternity with Himself.

In the scriptures the overcomes are known as "cloud of witness."

-The Earth is like a computer gift to man.
-The manufacturer gave the manufacturers instruction on how it should be used.
- Man violated the rule and his computer began to malfunction

Now, the "wise guys" now thoughtfully came to a wonderful conclusion:
How can the Almighty "Toshiba Company" make a Faulty (Evil) Computer?

If man commits mass murder: it is Gods Fault
If gorilla mauls girl: it is Gods fault
If plane crashes: it is Gods fault

Can't you see that another code is running in parallel to the operations of the earth? Theists have always blamed satan as the source of the Trojan disturbing mankind.

On a more spiritual and lighter note:
Just as Jesus commanded the sea storm to be quiet, I believe that Adam also had that kind of capacity to bend nature to his will.

Mar 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

Hello I was just looking through this thread basically free will and an omimiscient being are mutually exclusive cuz an all knowing god knows what you'll do before you do it l. And another thing besides if the earth and universe are like 6000-10000 years old as creationists claim then why can we see light that's more than 6000 years. We know the speed of light is constant about 150000m\s so basically there isn't supposed to be enough time to see the most distant galaxies or even proxima centuri our second nearest star because when you're looking at light in space you aren't seeing them how they are but how they were. Your looking back in time to when they were earlier stars or bodies. We're supposed to see light at least 4- 6000 light years away if the universe is young ave in the creation account in the bible God created the earth before the stars and he uses a day cuz the people in that time obviously thought the stars where just little dots in the sky. I'm agnostic I just simply don't know is all every scientific branch points to a very old universe and not how the bible portrayed it

EyeHateGod:

Good is also not a thing

Perfect! Good is not a thing, it is an attribute!

jonbellion:

Hello I was just looking through this thread basically free will and an omimiscient being are mutually exclusive cuz an all knowing god knows what you'll do before you do it

Not True!
Omniscience has to do ALSO with Foreknowledge!
Omniscience is not PREDESTINATION!

If God is Omniscient because he has Predestined us to act in a certain way, then He cannot claim we have Free Will.

However,
If God is Omniscient because he has Foreknowledge (He doesn't live in the rhelm of time so He can fast forward or reverse His views at will), then He can claim giving us Free Will and He will be correct.

Assume you invented a time machine and you saw what happens in Nigeria political environment in the year 2035. If you told everybody what you saw and come 2035, your predictions perfectly came to pass; Could it be said that you influenced or engineered the outcome?

Such is the power of Foreknowledge;

jonbellion:

And another thing besides if the earth and universe are like 6000-10000 years old as creationists claim then why can we see light that's more than 6000 years. We know the speed of light is constant about 150000m\s so basically there isn't supposed to be enough time to see the most distant galaxies or even proxima centuri our second nearest star because when you're looking at light in space you aren't seeing them how they are but how they were. Your looking back in time to when they were earlier stars or bodies. We're supposed to see light at least 4- 6000 light years away if the universe is young ave in the creation account in the bible God created the earth before the stars and he uses a day cuz the people in that time obviously thought the stars where just little dots in the sky. I'm agnostic I just simply don't know is all every scientific branch points to a very old universe and not how the bible portrayed it

The Bible Says:
1. In the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth
Many theologians say that there must have been a GAP between verse 1 & 2 because verse 2 says:
2. And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the earth. (At least we find that water covered the earth in darkness)
3. And God said, Let there be light (Not necessary the sun but it could be...obscure)
4. God separated the light from darkness (DAY 1)

Some theologians say: the first earth was destroyed during the rebellion of Lucifer.. Including the Dynasors etc during that time.

Some theologians say the dinasors perished during Noah's flood...

But the bottom line is that Genesis concentrated on the Reactivation or repopulation of the earth.

Thanks for the Question.

shadeyinka:


Not True!
Omniscience has to do ALSO with Foreknowledge!
Omniscience is not PREDESTINATION!

If God is Omniscient because he has Predestined us to act in a certain way, then He cannot claim we have Free Will.

However,
If God is Omniscient because he has Foreknowledge (He doesn't live in the rhelm of time so He can fast forward or reverse His views at will), then He can claim giving us Free Will and He will be correct.

Assume you invented a time machine and you saw what happens in Nigeria political environment in the year 2035. If you told everybody what you saw and come 2035, your predictions perfectly came to pass; Could it be said that you influenced or engineered the outcome?

Such is the power of Foreknowledge;




The Bible Says:
1. In the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth
Many theologians say that there must have been a GAP between verse 1 & 2 because verse 2 says:
2. And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the earth. (At least we find that water covered the earth in darkness)
3. And God said, Let there be light (Not necessary the sun but it could be...obscure)
4. God separated the light from darkness (DAY 1)

Some theologians say: the first earth was destroyed during the rebellion of Lucifer.. Including the Dynasors etc during that time.

Some theologians say the dinasors perished during Noah's flood...

But the bottom line is that Genesis concentrated on the Reactivation or repopulation of the earth.

Thanks for the Question.

So you forgot to address the fact that the omniscient being under discussion also happens to be OMNIPOTENT as well? Good for you.

And besides in the bible God took 2 days to create the earth but 1 day to create the stars... Really from that alone it was obvious that the people in that time thought stars where just little dots in the sky.

shadeyinka:


Not True!
Omniscience has to do ALSO with Foreknowledge!
Omniscience is not PREDESTINATION!

If God is Omniscient because he has Predestined us to act in a certain way, then He cannot claim we have Free Will.

However,
If God is Omniscient because he has Foreknowledge (He doesn't live in the rhelm of time so He can fast forward or reverse His views at will), then He can claim giving us Free Will and He will be correct.

Assume you invented a time machine and you saw what happens in Nigeria political environment in the year 2035. If you told everybody what you saw and come 2035, your predictions perfectly came to pass; Could it be said that you influenced or engineered the outcome?

Such is the power of Foreknowledge;




The Bible Says:
1. In the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth
Many theologians say that there must have been a GAP between verse 1 & 2 because verse 2 says:
2. And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the earth. (At least we find that water covered the earth in darkness)
3. And God said, Let there be light (Not necessary the sun but it could be...obscure)
4. God separated the light from darkness (DAY 1)

Some theologians say: the first earth was destroyed during the rebellion of Lucifer.. Including the Dynasors etc during that time.

Some theologians say the dinasors perished during Noah's flood...

But the bottom line is that Genesis concentrated on the Reactivation or repopulation of the earth.

Thanks for the Question.

besides I'm the bible how come bacteria are never mentioned. How can noahs ark explain marsupial animals. Animals that have pouches they are found exclusively in Australia except for possums. Now how would that have gotten to the ark? And how would they have gotten back to Australia from mount aratat in turkey and we didn't notice any fossils along the way. Some didn't make home in any country. It doesn't add up it makes no sense on the other hand the theory of plate tectonics(continental drift) and then a type of evolution called convergent evolution explains this per-fect-ly 100%

shadeyinka:


I read up all the links and honestly, I wasn't impressed because except for the last link were written from an Atheistic point of view. Someone somewhere has redefined evil as either
1. Moral or
2. Natural
And the last link even though from Theistic point of view did not analyse the word Natural Evil before jumping at an explanation.

To help Atheists, let me suggest a third alternative
3. Artificial Evil.
- the engines of an aircraft packed up mid-air for no reason.
- my parachute tore mid-air at a weak seam.
- a guy slipped in the Lab and conc HCl bottle fell and broke over a cute classmate
-cooking gas explodes because the hose is leaking

I agree, you didn't invent the term BUT it is wrong.
Check your dictionary: usually not biased when it comes to religious affairs they say something else.

Check! The Proponents of Natural Evil after defining it goes to the next level to ask the question: "If God is good, why does He allow Evil?".

If I eat a chicken, is that evil?
If a lion ate a goat, is that evil?
Now if a lion eat me, why would it be evil? (Natural Evil)
Now, If I ate another man, that will be evil! Wouldn't it?

I am sure you know that not everything on the internet is correct.


Now, your question even though I have answered it before: " Why would a good God allow what you defined as natural evil?"




-The Earth is like a computer gift to man.
-The manufacturer gave the manufacturers instruction on how it should be used.
- Man violated the rule and his computer began to malfunction

Now, the "wise guys" now thoughtfully came to a wonderful conclusion:
How can the Almighty "Toshiba Company" make a Faulty (Evil) Computer?

If man commits mass murder: it is Gods Fault
If gorilla mauls girl: it is Gods fault
If plane crashes: it is Gods fault

Can't you see that another code is running in parallel to the operations of the earth? Theists have always blamed satan as the source of the Trojan disturbing mankind.

On a more spiritual and lighter note:
Just as Jesus commanded the sea storm to be quiet, I believe that Adam also had that kind of capacity to bend nature to his will.

Mar 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

I think you are trying to deflect the question, everytime its brought, you say its not evil, and so on. Now i showed you links where this term has been defined both in philosophy and theology but you say its wrong?

Are we getting sentimental?

I wasnt pushing for the arguments in those links, i just wanted to prove to you that there is such a thing has Natural evil in philosophy, something you have said doesn't exist since the start of this thread.

Natural evil is the kind of sufferring in which no non-divine agent can be blamed.

A boy has an accident...thats not natural evil

Tsunami destroys lives and properties in the thousands in china...that is natural evil.

There is obviously no one to blame except a divine agent that controls the weather.

Now you want to add a new definition just because you dont think its right?, really?

You want to blame natural evil on mans fall, but that would not work, mans fall is not enough to cause the natural disasters, and even if it did, then isnt God just a sadist because life is already hard on its own, why is God allowing natural evil to just kill people in the thousands for no apparent reason?

Look bro, i understand perfectly, theists tend to have this belief so held strongly that when shown otherwise they want to defend it to their last breath, its why changing their mind about God is futile, but you have to be objective here and put aside your feelings.

There is something called Natural evil and it has bothered both philosophers and theologians for centuries, and if you fail to acknowledge that and try to give a solution and even the origin(as the op requested) of this kind of evil, i am sorry to say but you are being sentimental and dogmatic.

I'd have explained it but I'm writing from a phone my hands are kind of tired

Pneumatology is not law and not logic. God created all things animate and inanimate. He made Nephilims(Humans) physical and paste their shadows around them. He breathed His Conscience(knowledge of Good and Evil) into humans. He commanded humans to always look up to Him for everything and never be jealous of Him and of themselves. By that, God intimated humans that He is Knowledge of everything that humans now know, that humans must always be possitive and never negative and that He is the Only Judge of all things that He has created. That humans must believe that, and never be jealous of that. So evil comes from God but humans must never indulge in it. Like the Atheists, disbelieving God is a sin akin to jealousy, Only God, at His time, will punish the Atheists.

akintom:





Evil

adjective

morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
harmful; injurious: evil laws.

adjective

characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.

noun

that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: to choose the lesser of two evils.
the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.

My contribution addressed the adjectival part of the word evil, therefore am not wrong as far as dictionary meaning is concerned. I wouldn't know the dictionary of your reference.

Now as a noun, a agree with you that it's personality. Which support my conclusion that;

it's the innate moral capacity of man that defines what offence is and what it's not.

Therefore, the claim that Satan is the origin of offence/sin is mere religious assumption.

I understand you. The problem actually emanate from the frequency of word usage; as in
Personality induced Evil AND Nature induced Evil.

It is difficult finding specific sentences where nature is treated as evil in its actions. Like we never say the Evil Hurricane Katharina! Or Evil Tsunami!

One may find instead sentences like "an evil wind which blows no one any good" as a figure of speech.


In personality induced Evil one can find a culprit
BUT
In Nature induced Evil can nature be blamed?

Also, my personal opinion is that if Evil can be classified based on the causing agent (personality or nature), their should be a third agent which I will call "Artificially induced Evil".

By this term, I mean Accidents, Pain and discomfort caused by non-natural devices such as vehicles, machineries, Nuclear Reactors etc.

Atheists are are quick to Blame God on Natural Evil which as explained in the illustration of the Computer and Trojan earlier presented which is NOT fair. Is it possible to blame a computer manufacturer for viral infections caused by violations of the manufacturers manual? Certainly NOT!

akintom:


Evil

adjective

morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
harmful; injurious: evil laws.

adjective

characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.

noun

that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: to choose the lesser of two evils.
the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.

My contribution addressed the adjectival part of the word evil, therefore am not wrong as far as dictionary meaning is concerned. I wouldn't know the dictionary of your reference.

Now as a noun, a agree with you that it's personality. Which support my conclusion that;

it's the innate moral capacity of man that defines what offence is and what it's not.

Therefore, the claim that Satan is the origin of offence/sin is mere religious assumption.

I understand your point. The problem actually emanate from the frequency of word usage in defining evil; as in
Personality induced Evil AND Nature induced Evil.

It is difficult finding specific sentences where nature is treated as evil in its actions. Like we never say the Evil Hurricane Katharina! Or Evil Tsunami!

One may find instead sentences like "an evil wind which blows no one any good" as a figure of speech.


In personality induced Evil one can find a culprit
BUT
In Nature induced Evil can nature be blamed?

Also, my personal opinion is that if Evil can be classified based on the causing agent (personality or nature), their should be a third agent which I will call "Artificially induced Evil".

By this term, I mean Accidents, Pain and discomfort caused by non-natural devices such as vehicles, machineries, Nuclear Reactors etc.

Atheists are are quick to Blame God on Natural Evil which as explained in the illustration of the Computer and Trojan earlier presented which is NOT fair. Is it possible to blame a computer manufacturer for viral infections caused by violations of the manufacturers manual? Certainly NOT!

jonbellion:
besides I'm the bible how come bacteria are never mentioned. How can noahs ark explain marsupial animals. Animals that have pouches they are found exclusively in Australia except for possums. Now how would that have gotten to the ark? And how would they have gotten back to Australia from mount aratat in turkey and we didn't notice any fossils along the way. Some didn't make home in any country. It doesn't add up it makes no sense on the other hand the theory of plate tectonics(continental drift) and then a type of evolution called convergent evolution explains this per-fect-ly 100%

The Bible was never intended to be a science textbook. It was simply to communicate the records of Gods dealings with man so that posterity can learn. So, it was not a technical information source..it deals mainly with cause and effect of good/bad relationship with God with respect to our choices.

I think the continental drift was spoken about in the bible. It wasn't a hidden thing as other ancient writings also have it.
Gen 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.

Its like saying that "Why didn't Darwin speak about DNA?". Even if he did, would he have made sense to the scholars of that time?

Weah96:


So you forgot to address the fact that the omniscient being under discussion also happens to be OMNIPOTENT as well? Good for you.

What has God being Omnipotent have to do with Foreknowledge?

A question please!
How can an Omnipotent, Omniscient God create Beings with Free will and also prevent them from making some independent choices?

donnffd:


I think you are trying to deflect the question, everytime its brought, you say its not evil, and so on. Now i showed you links where this term has been defined both in philosophy and theology but you say its wrong?

Are we getting sentimental?

I wasnt pushing for the arguments in those links, i just wanted to prove to you that there is such a thing has Natural evil in philosophy, something you have said doesn't exist since the start of this thread.

Natural evil is the kind of sufferring in which no non-divine agent can be blamed.

A boy has an accident...thats not natural evil

Tsunami destroys lives and properties in the thousands in china...that is natural evil.

There is obviously no one to blame except a divine agent that controls the weather.

Now you want to add a new definition just because you dont think its right?, really?

You want to blame natural evil on mans fall, but that would not work, mans fall is not enough to cause the natural disasters, and even if it did, then isnt God just a sadist because life is already hard on its own, why is God allowing natural evil to just kill people in the thousands for no apparent reason?

Look bro, i understand perfectly, theists tend to have this belief so held strongly that when shown otherwise they want to defend it to their last breath, its why changing their mind about God is futile, but you have to be objective here and put aside your feelings.

There is something called Natural evil and it has bothered both philosophers and theologians for centuries, and if you fail to acknowledge that and try to give a solution and even the origin(as the op requested) of this kind of evil, i am sorry to say but you are being sentimental and dogmatic.

Bro! How come now? I looks like I met you in your grouchy mood. LOL

I agree sometimes one is sentimental about issues and its natural. But you too were emotional about this your response. You didn't address any of the issues raised. Stylishly, I showed that I understood your position BUT disagreed with the usage of the phase "Natural Evil".

I suggested that If Natural Evil must exist, then there should also exist what I described as " Artificial Evil" with examples.

Its at least comforting that you understand( but disagree with) my view about the fact that Mans fall is the cause of Natural Disasters. Unfortunately, this view is not provable outside the scripture so, you just have to accept the Theistic position of course without agreeing with it.


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

This world is controlled by a Force of Cause and Effect! Adam was warned and unfortunately he discarded the warning NOW the perfect gift he was given got infected with a Trojan resulting into pain, discomfort and death.


The only way in which God can be blamed is if:
-The manufacturer of the car that killed Princess Diana can be sued to court.
-The manufacturer of the lost Malaysian Airline would be prosecuted
-The builder of the Chernobyl reactor prosecuted.

There offence would be simply: why did you build/invent your technology?

I can't defend God! I can't be His Lawer or Advocate! I am too short for that!

shadeyinka:



Bro! How come now? I looks like I met you in your grouchy mood. LOL

I agree sometimes one is sentimental about issues and its natural. But you too were emotional about this your response. You didn't address any of the issues raised. Stylishly, I showed that I understood your position BUT disagreed with the usage of the phase "Natural Evil".

I suggested that If Natural Evil must exist, then there should also exist what I described as " Artificial Evil" with examples.

Its at least comforting that you understand( but disagree with) my view about the fact that Mans fall is the cause of Natural Disasters. Unfortunately, this view is not provable outside the scripture so, you just have to accept the Theistic position of course without agreeing with it.


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

This world is controlled by a Force of Cause and Effect! Adam was warned and unfortunately he discarded the warning NOW the perfect gift he was given got infected with a Trojan resulting into pain, discomfort and death.


The only way in which God can be blamed is if:
-The manufacturer of the car that killed Princess Diana can be sued to court.
-The manufacturer of the lost Malaysian Airline would be prosecuted
-The builder of the Chernobyl reactor prosecuted.

There offence would be simply: why did you build/invent your technology?

I can't defend God! I can't be His Lawer or Advocate! I am too short for that!

I agree, maybe i was a bit too emotional, because i ddnt explain my stance well.

Alright, first, i know you dont accept the term Natural evil, but it is a term that has been used for centuries dating back to socrates. It was not like asif atheists just redefined evil to suit their bashing of God.

Then, you talked about artificial evil, while it is allowed to include your definition, you have to be consistent.
I think a differentiation of Natural disasters and accidents is keen, i wont do that because i am sure you know much to well about it, but if I understand you correctly, you are trying to equate Natural disasters to accidents which is not necessarily the case.

God created Nature, now since he is perfect, nature should be perfect, but as we can see, its not, disasters happen, now lets examine it, if there was a flaw in Gods design, then he could easily remodify it to correct the mistakes, the fact that these disasters happen frequently shows he is either incapable of repairing it, or he is purposely allowing it to happen.

Now, to your answer which you likened the disasters to a virus in my opinion is not an accurate description of the issue. You are assuming that whoever is causing the disasters(writing the virus) is as knowledgeable as God since this individual can edit and manipulate the workings of God.

I see lot of flaws in that logic, because if the devil could edit the universe now, it means he could have done so even if man did not fall, and that would say alot about the creator.

Now, after mans fall, God cursed man to work before he eats and painful child birth for the woman, but i doubt i read anything about natural disasters, so if that wasnt part of the curse, and he is allowing it to happen, then obviously thats a moral evil dont you think?

So no matter the way you look at it, either God doesnt know how to fix it or he is allowing it to happen.

If the former is the case, then he is not as powerful as theists make him sound and if he allows it to continue then its either he is sadistic and evil or just plainly doesnt care about us either ways why call him God?

shadeyinka:


A spirit is not confined to any dimension so also the soul, so its difficult to say the soul is encased in the spirit...although it can be inferred because both can exist within the body.

I am trying to be careful answering your question as you are putting BIG words into my mouth.

However, I will try to attempt your question.
Is this the basis for the "God created man in his image and likeness"?

No one is sure if it is the basis or not!
What we are sure of is what He said about Himself.

1. God is a Spirit.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit:
2. God has Manifested Himself as
The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit

God is not easy to describe: way too much for our comprehension. We can only speculate to the limit of human understanding.

Now in 1 & 2 above, we are scripturally covered. Now any other things I am going to say henceforth is MY PERSONAL INTERPRETATION AND UNDERSTANDING. They do not reflect Gods position, I could be wrong because I am going beyond what is expressly revealed.

With that in view, my understanding/speculation:

The Father: (Self/Internal Identity)
The Word: (Expression Identity)
The Holy Spirit: (Spiritual Identity)

-The Father seems to function as the Soul is to Man.
-The Word expresses & communicates the Will of the Father as the Human body Expresses the Will of the soul (in the physical rhelm)
-The Holy Spirit expresses the Power/Authority of the Father.

This is the nearest I can describe God in humans terms (I am sure that my view is a terribly inadequate description).

A man is far much easier to describe:
Body: Physical Identity(How he is identified in the physical rhelm/expressesnthe will of the soul)
Soul: (How he Identifies himself/seat of his intellect,emotion and will)
Spirit: (How he is identified in the spirit rhelm)


Now, is this the basis for the "God created man in his image and likeness?

I DONT KNOW!
I can only speculate as God did NOT explain this concept of " in His Image"!

[size=5pt] I will want to apologize to my christian brothers who might feel different. I am just trying to humanly do that which is impossible to do in the hope of answering a question. [/size]

Dear akintom,
The above is presented at the risk of being very wrong!
It is really impossible to describe God with respect to His Image.

Your second question?

It's ok my brother. I rest the first question now since you have said you don't know.

This is the second question.

"Animals were made a Duality (Body and Soul)

Man was Made a Trinity (Body, Soul and Spirit)

God is a Trinity (The Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit)

Man would have been no better than animals except for the fact that God breath into Adam (His Spirit) and Adam became a Living Soul (Eternal Soul)"

2. Question: according to you, God breath gave Adam life, what then gave animals life?

akintom:


It's ok my brother. I rest the first question now since you have said you don't know.

This is the second question.

"Animals were made a Duality (Body and Soul)

Man was Made a Trinity (Body, Soul and Spirit)

God is a Trinity (The Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit)

Man would have been no better than animals except for the fact that God breath into Adam (His Spirit) and Adam became a Living Soul (Eternal Soul)"

2. Question: according to you, God breath gave Adam life, what then gave animals life?

You probably misunderstood this: God breathe into Man and Man became a Living Soul. An explanatory interpretation would have been:

Living Sou/Beingl= Eternal Soul/Being

The difference:
When Animals die, their existence terminates Forever
When Man dies, he goes on living (outside his body)

Why? A man has a spirit and spirits live eternally ( they have a beginning but no end).

In summary, the soul gives you consciousness and the spirit make you eternal.

I assume Gods breath into Man gave man his spirit.

donnffd:


I agree, maybe i was a bit too emotional, because i ddnt explain my stance well.

Alright, first, i know you dont accept the term Natural evil, but it is a term that has been used for centuries dating back to socrates. It was not like asif atheists just redefined evil to suit their bashing of God.

Then, you talked about artificial evil, while it is allowed to include your definition, you have to be consistent.
I think a differentiation of Natural disasters and accidents is keen, i wont do that because i am sure you know much to well about it, but if I understand you correctly, you are trying to equate Natural disasters to accidents which is not necessarily the case.

God created Nature, now since he is perfect, nature should be perfect, but as we can see, its not, disasters happen, now lets examine it, if there was a flaw in Gods design, then he could easily remodify it to correct the mistakes, the fact that these disasters happen frequently shows he is either incapable of repairing it, or he is purposely allowing it to happen.

Now, to your answer which you likened the disasters to a virus in my opinion is not an accurate description of the issue. You are assuming that whoever is causing the disasters(writing the virus) is as knowledgeable as God since this individual can edit and manipulate the workings of God.

I see lot of flaws in that logic, because if the devil could edit the universe now, it means he could have done so even if man did not fall, and that would say alot about the creator.

Now, after mans fall, God cursed man to work before he eats and painful child birth for the woman, but i doubt i read anything about natural disasters, so if that wasnt part of the curse, and he is allowing it to happen, then obviously thats a moral evil dont you think?

So no matter the way you look at it, either God doesnt know how to fix it or he is allowing it to happen.

If the former is the case, then he is not as powerful as theists make him sound and if he allows it to continue then its either he is sadistic and evil or just plainly doesnt care about us either ways why call him God?

One of the things I appreciate most about atheist is their ability to use logic and reasoning in shading light to questions.

shadeyinka:




I understand your point. The problem actually emanate from the frequency of word usage in defining evil; as in
Personality induced Evil AND Nature induced Evil.

It is difficult finding specific sentences where nature is treated as evil in its actions. Like we never say the Evil Hurricane Katharina! Or Evil Tsunami!

One may find instead sentences like "an evil wind which blows no one any good" as a figure of speech.


In personality induced Evil one can find a culprit
BUT
In Nature induced Evil can nature be blamed?

Also, my personal opinion is that if Evil can be classified based on the causing agent (personality or nature), their should be a third agent which I will call "Artificially induced Evil".

By this term, I mean Accidents, Pain and discomfort caused by non-natural devices such as vehicles, machineries, Nuclear Reactors etc.

Atheists are are quick to Blame God on Natural Evil which as explained in the illustration of the Computer and Trojan earlier presented which is NOT fair. Is it possible to blame a computer manufacturer for viral infections caused by violations of the manufacturers manual? Certainly NOT!

On the allegation of atheists blaming God for the natural phenomenon that brings pain to human experience.

You see, God is blamed on the basis that you folks claimed that it's God that created this universe, and that what he created is perfect.

In disproving the creationist theory, let assume that God in deed created the universe and it was a perfect work. How come that what is perfect brings pain into human experience?

It's on this ground we say that God is to be blamed for a defective creation and for lying that he created a perfect work.