If you do not agree with the premises which includes the definition of consciousness then I think it's best you state your problems with them before you answer my questions.

Premises

consciousness: the state of self-awareness including awareness of one's environs.

* Consciousness in humans and all other species is seen to be based on physical things specifically brains. Physical beings of a certain constitution exhibit consciousness.

* Consciousness is affected by physical things. It is by being caused by them, perceiving them or by their action on the body it depends.

* Consciousness is sine qua non to knowing reality exists. Only conscious beings know reality exists. Unconscious beings are unaware of reality.

* Consciousness is a binary, you are either conscious or not. Once you are conscious there are degrees to it. Sleepy people are not as conscious as people in active concentration. Partly conscious or partly unconscious beings are conscious to a degree.

* Consciousness is an emergent property of brains, unlike other emergent properties is unexplainable by physical laws. Take example, snowflakes, termite mounds and ice which are emergent properties. One can explain these things using physical laws eg lattice arrangement in ice. Even emergent physiological elements in the body such as digestion can be explained strictly using physical laws. Consciousness follows NO physical law.

* Matter and energy in itself is not conscious, it is unconscious. Quarks, hadrons and leptons; elements, compounds and mixtures; ions, electromagnetic waves and fields. All these material forms lack consciousness. Even materials in working human brains lack consciousness; it is the brain as a whole that is conscious not its parts. Dead, comatose and sleeping brains do not have consciousness.

Keeping the premises in mind and assuming you agree with them then answer the following posers. Again, if you do not agree with any of the premises I urge you to address them first.

Posers

* How do you think consciousness originated? Feel free to speculate.

* What explains the fact that we need consciousness to know anything exists?

* Do you think consciousness is physical? If so, what physical property does it possess, which physical law does it follow?

* If only the universe exists, how does consciousness allow us imagine entities and universes unseen in our universe (ie think outside the box of the universe)?

* Do you see the existence of consciousness as a falsification of naturalism? Please give reasons for your answer.

Naturalism is the "idea or belief
that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or
spiritual) laws and forces operate in the
world." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)

* Do you agree consciousness is supernatural? By supernatural, I do not refer to God or the paranormal. By supernatural in this context, I simply mean something that transcends physical laws and cannot be explained by them.

* God has been suggested as the primordial cause of consciousness, why do you disagree with this and what problems does it have?

Thanks for your responses. I look forward to them and hope we can have an engaging discussion.

I think consciousness is both physical and non physical . Non physical in the sense that we can disengage self awareness from its vehicle which is our material bodies . For the physical part : The von Economo neurons or spindle cells play in major role in determining if we are self aware . A popular experiment is putting an "X" on the forehead of an animal and placing her in front of a mirror . An animal self aware of itself can be touch its forehead or a least display some reactions that show that it knows something its on its forehead . Areas of the brain containing the spindle cells "light up" whenever this happens .

For the non physical part of it : experiences like Astral Projection and Lucid dreaming for me prove that consciousness can be experienced outside the physical body . I think the spirit possess its own mind that could connect with the physical mind . Its like The Universal Mind (God ) - The Spirit Mind - The Physical Mind . And the subconscious acts an intermediary between the Physical Mind and The Universal Mind . Maybe , The Spirit Mind resides in our subconscious .

And errmm , I think the Physical Mind relies on The Spirit Mind to function.

KingEbukasBlog:
I think consciousness is both physical and non physical . Non physical in the sense that we can disengage self awareness from its vehicle which is our material bodies . For the physical part : The von Economo neurons or spindle cells play in major role in determining if we are self aware . A popular experiment is putting an "X" on the forehead of an animal and placing her in front of a mirror . An animal self aware of itself can be touch its forehead or a least display some reactions that show that it knows something its on its forehead . Areas of the brain containing the spindle cells "light up" whenever this happens .

For the non physical part of it : experiences like Astral Projection and Lucid dreaming for me prove that consciousness can be experienced outside the physical body . I think the spirit possess its own mind that could connect with the physical mind . Its like The Universal Mind (God ) - The Spirit Mind - The Physical Mind . And the subconscious acts an intermediary between the Physical Mind and The Universal Mind . Maybe , The Spirit Mind resides in our subconscious .

Those von enconomo neurons and spindle cells are not consciousness itself. As you said, they play a role in self awareness (ie consciousness). If consciousness is physical it has physical properties and follows physical laws.

Seun, johnydon22, adepeter26, Niflheim, hahn, thehomer, JackBizzle, lepasharon, cloudgodess, frecocoa, CatFishBilly, Kay17, joseph1013, frank317, HardMirror, wiegraf, EvilBrain, teempakguy, Lennycool, akintom, SirWere, obinna58, jonbellion, onetrack etc You are welcome.

plaetton, You are NOT WELCOME! The guy will start mumbling crap about consciousness being interacting information of huge complexity or some other mumbo-jumbo.

ifenes I see you. sonofluc1fer your input is required.

There is nothing outside of consciousness. Consciousness can never become unconscious. Our physical aspect of consciousness itself is a product of the fact that we are aware/ conscious of them. Everything exists in the " Now" and you can only experience what ever caught your attention

The idea of God being the supreme consciousness is only a story of how man is himself is a consciousness being. God is the story of how man is conscious, meaning he has forever been conscious of everything and will always be. Man is a physical( holographic) manifestation of Consciousness. Everything we see today, cars, houses are within our Consciouness. The painter and his paint are one, the Musician and his music are one, God and man are one, no beginning, no end. Everything is Energy.

UyiIredia:


Those von enconomo neurons and spindle cells are not consciousness itself. As you said, they play a role in self awareness (ie consciousness). If consciousness is physical it has physical properties and follows physical laws.

I dig . Consciousness is a state. But , do you agree that there are different levels of consciousness ?

ifenes:
There is nothing outside of consciousness. Consciousness can never become unconscious. Our physical aspect of consciousness itself is a product of the fact that we are aware/ conscious of them. Everything exists in the " Now" and you can only experience what ever caught your attention

The idea of God being the supreme consciousness is only a story of how man is himself is a consciousness being. God is the story of how man is conscious, meaning he has forever been conscious of everything and will always be. Man is a physical( holographic) manifestation of Consciousness. Everything we see today, cars, houses are within our Consciouness. The painter and his paint are one, the Musician and his music are one, God and man are one, no beginning, no end. Everything is Energy.

One question : How did an unresponsive unconscious finite universe produce consciousness ?

KingEbukasBlog:


One question : How did an unresponsive unconscious finite universe produce consciousness ?

The Universe is not real, it is nothing but the product of Consciousness,and Consciousness is awareness which is an attribute of you and I. Basically the Universe responds to your thought pattern. What you think of the Universe is what it becomes.

I don't like the fact you did not answer the questions. I hope other atheists don't follow your footsteps. Now to your points.

ifenes:
There is nothing outside of consciousness.

If you believe God caused everything this would be true. Otherwise, the universe exists whether there is consciousness or not.

ifenes:

Consciousness can never become unconscious.

Tell that to sleeping humans and dead humans.

ifenes:

Our physical aspect of consciousness itself is a product of the fact that we are aware/ conscious of them.

What is this physical aspect of consciousness? Note that neither the brain or its actions are consciousness.

ifenes:

Everything exists in the " Now" and you can only what ever caught your attention

True.

ifenes:

The idea of God being the supreme consciousness is only a story of how man is himself is a consciousness being.
God is the story of how man is conscious, meaning he has forever been conscious of everything and will always be.

Man is not eternal. He has not forever been conscious. Men are born and they die.

ifenes:

Man is a physical( holographic) manifestation of Consciousness.

What do you mean? What consciousness is making the hologram?

ifenes:

Everything we see today, cars, houses are within our Consciouness.

They exist independent of our consciousness.

ifenes:

The painter and his paint are one, the Musician and his music are one, God and man are one, no beginning, no end. Everything is Energy.

No. The painter is not the paint, he exists before the paint. The musician is not the music and does not need the music to exist. Not everything is energy. Consciousness isn't. Space isn't. Fields aren't.

ifenes:


The Universe is not real, it is nothing but the product of Consciousness,and Consciousness is awareness which is an attribute of you and I. Basically the Universe responds to your thought pattern. What you think of the Universe is what it becomes.

Are you an atheist? I am asking because atheists claim they use logic and reason. You are not being logical.

I think the stars are made of vibrating cheese in outer space. Consider your statement true when this is observed by cosmologists and astronomers.

UyiIredia:
I don't like the fact you did not answer the questions. I hope other atheists don't follow your footsteps. Now to your points.



If you believe God caused everything this would be true. Otherwise, the universe exists whether there is consciousness or not.



Tell that to sleeping humans and dead humans.



What is this physical aspect of consciousness? Note that neither the brain or its actions are consciousness.



True.



Man is not eternal. He has not forever been conscious. Men are born and they die.



What do you mean? What consciousness is making the hologram?



They exist independent of our consciousness.



No. The painter is not the paint, he exists before the paint. The musician is not the music and does not need the music to exist. Not everything is energy. Consciousness isn't. Space isn't. Fields aren't.

Well you invited me to comment....;and when I use "God",I use it in place of humans. Humans are the Gods who create their different realities.

You have the right to decide what to accept or not. All the best!

KingEbukasBlog:


I dig . Consciousness is a state. But , do you agree that there are different levels of consciousness ?

Yes. I explained that there are different degrees of consciousness. The way a baby is conscious is different from the way adults are conscious. There is also the subconscious.

ifenes:



Well you invited me to comment....;and when I use "God",I use it in place of humans. Humans are the Gods who create their different realities.

You have the right to decide what to accept or not. All the best!

So you don't want to critically analyze your views or mine. Interesting!

Una wey dey view I dey hope say u go reply o. This my phone battery get as e be. E fit off anytime full or not.

UyiIredia:


Are you an atheist? I am asking because atheists are claim thry use logic and reason. You are not being logical.

I think the stars are made of vibrating cheese in outer space. Consider your statement true when this is observed by cosmologists and astronomers.

The only God I believe in is myself. My thoughts create my life and that is probably different to what people who call themselves Atheist think.I don't bother bashing a god that is not real. I understand the bible is not what you christians think it is, it is an astrological/metaphysical book. Everything is made of Consciousness and are vibrating, all works on how you train your mind

UyiIredia:


So you don't want to critically analyze your views or mine. Interesting!

I am open to discussion and I am aware it is sometimes no use to debate certain things as you are your personal teacher. What your strongly believes in is what is real for you.

ifenes:


The only God I believe in is myself. My thoughts create my life and that is probably different to what people who call themselves Atheist think.I don't bother bashing a god that is not real. I understand the bible is not what you christians think it is, it is an astrological/metaphysical book. Everything is made of Consciousness and are vibrating, all works on how you train your mind

I am a deist not a Christian. Everything is made of consciousness. Interesting. Explain this statement please.

I think you are conflating a lot of things and calling them all consciousness.

Consciousness is not confined to our Sense of Identity.

You can remain conscious but lose all sense of being who you are. you might think you are someone else. Or you might just be dazed and take time to remember yourself. This happens often in deep meditation or even in deep sleep.

Personally I don't believe that there is any difference between Consciousness and Being. To Be, to exist is Consciousness. To be Conscious is to Exist.

Note that I say 'I don't believe'. I use the word 'believe' because I don't think this is something that can be demonstrated.

In fact Consciousness cannot be demonstrated at all and it is totally utterly subjective. That therefore makes all the arguments in the OP moot.

ifenes:


The only God I believe in is myself. My thoughts create my life and that is probably different to what people who call themselves Atheist think.I don't bother bashing a god that is not real. I understand the bible is not what you christians think it is, it is an astrological/metaphysical book. Everything is made of Consciousness and are vibrating, all works on how you train your mind

Lol . The way you are slaying yasef here sha . If thoughts create your reality , then you shouldn't criticize someone who has tailored his thoughts to create his reality . His thoughts have now transmuted into his reality . The point is : Since you believe God is not real , God is not real to you ; if another believes God is real , God is real to him .

Now the problem is : what is real and false since our thoughts and beliefs create our reality ? And why are you correct about God's existence and why I'm I wrong
Please leave transfixed

Thanks for this opportunity. I disagree with the premises below:

UyiIredia:
* Consciousness is an emergent property of brains, unlike other emergent properties is unexplainable by physical laws. Take example, snowflakes, termite mounds and ice which are emergent properties. One can explain these things using physical laws eg lattice arrangement in ice. Even emergent physiological elements in the body such as digestion can be explained strictly using physical laws. Consciousness follows NO physical law.

Consciousness is not yet fully explained by physical laws, but you don't know that a physical law that can explain consciousness won't be discovered tomorrow morning, so it is premature to conclude that consciousness follows no physical law. For now, we just don't know.

* Matter and energy in itself is not conscious, it is unconscious. Quarks, hadrons and leptons; elements, compounds and mixtures; ions, electromagnetic waves and fields. All these material forms lack consciousness.

We don't know this for sure. It seems true, but it's perhaps that some objects we consider to be unconscious are just unable to communicate.

Now to the questions I can understand:

* How do you think consciousness originated? Feel free to speculate.

It appears to have originated during the evolution of animals, but I certainly don't know the details. Waiting for biologists to figure it out.

* What explains the fact that we need consciousness to know anything exists?

What explains the fact that we need legs to walk?

* If only the universe exists, how does consciousness allow us imagine entities and universes unseen in our universe (ie think outside the box of the universe)?

How do our legs allow us to walk to places that we have never been to before?

* God has been suggested as the primordial cause of consciousness, why do you disagree with this and what problems does it have?

In the absence of any actual evidence that God even exists, what's the basis for suggesting that he is the primordial cause of consciousness?

This is just another God of the gaps type of argument. We don't fully understand X at the current time, therefore God is responsible for X.

The only events that we can say for sure are happenings are our Experiences.

If I see a cow I cannot say for sure that the cow exists, but I can state for sure that my Experience of seeing the cow exists.

Whether the experience is based on and truly represents an objective event, or is a misconstruing of the real objective reality is something I cannot ever ascertain. All I have is the experience, I cannot perceive beyond it.

All experience is a part and parcel of Consciousness....

The inertness of a rock that i hold in my hand is a part of Consciousness. The Tree that I climb is a part of Consciousness. The heartbreak that I feel is a part of consciousness.....

PastorAIO:

Personally I don't believe that there is any difference between Consciousness and Being. To Be, to exist is Consciousness. To be Conscious is to Exist.

One question sir : Does the dead know that he is dead ?

KingEbukasBlog:


Lol . The way you are slaying yasef here sha . If thoughts create your reality , then you shouldn't criticize someone who has tailored his thoughts to create his reality . His thoughts have now transmuted into his reality . The point is : Since you believe God is not real , God is not real to you ; if another believes God is real , God is real to him .

Now the problem is : what is real and false since our thoughts and beliefs create our reality ? And why are you correct about God's existence and why I'm I wrong
Please leave transfixed

The problem with Thoughts and Beliefs is that most of them occur below conscious awareness, and the thoughts and beliefs that we are aware of are only a tip of the iceberg of all the cogitative processes going on in our minds.
Oh, and I'm sure you've noted another use of the word 'consciousness'. psychology since Freud has divided human mental processes into conscious aware, sub conscious and even un-conscious. This is another quite different use of the word.

Maybe our conscious thoughts and beliefs are not enough to make something real because they can be undermined by our unconscious thoughts and beliefs.

A good example of this dichotomy is with christians that claim to believe that they are going to heaven to be with God when they die and it will all be blissful and hunkydory yet when faced with the prospect of fast tracking to this desired destination they run with fear and trepidation.

Who is afriad of heavenly bliss? Unless deep deep down you are not too convinced that there is any heavenly bliss awaiting you on the other side.

KingEbukasBlog:


One question sir : Does the dead know that he is dead ?

You'd have to ask a dead man that question.

UyiIredia:


I am a deist not a Christian. Everything is made of consciousness. Interesting. Explain this statement please.

Consciousness itself is the highest frequency Energy can Vibrate. It is similar to the "Steam" state of Energy that transforms to Liquid and then Matter(physical). Everything in life goes through these three phases depending on how high or low they vibrate. From God to Man or from Steam to Ice.

I will compare the Physical state as the Zombie state where Consciousness "seem to be" limited. It is a state which suppressed form of Energy experiences illusion of Time,Motions etc. The higher this Zombie vibrates, the more liquid like it becomes(awakening) and becomes Steam.

So Consciousness being the highest form of existence is the state at which a particle is one and everything.

PastorAIO:


You'd have to ask a dead man that question.

Do I have to ?

It depends on your perspective or perception of life though ? Is the physical realm the only plane of existence ? Do you see death as some kind of transition ?

If you do , then death lets you experience a greater sense of awareness because it liberates the spirit mind .

KingEbukasBlog:


Lol . The way you are slaying yasef here sha . If thoughts create your reality , then you shouldn't criticize someone who has tailored his thoughts to create his reality . His thoughts have now transmuted into his reality . The point is : Since you believe God is not real , God is not real to you ; if another believes God is real , God is real to him .

Now the problem is : what is real and false since our thoughts and beliefs create our reality ? And why are you correct about God's existence and why I'm I wrong
Please leave transfixed

Dude are you still a christian? You are too clever for that

Let me just sit down here and learn..

Disappointing!

PastorAIO:
I think you are conflating a lot of things and calling them all . . .

.

Conflating what? I began with a definition of consciousness.

PastorAIO:

Consciousness is not confined to our Sense of Identity.

Indeed. That is when by consciousness one means the mind. In the truest sense it is one's identity. One's personality can change but your self awareness (knowing you exist) never changes while one is alive and exhibits it.

PastorAIO:

You can remain conscious but lose all sense of being who you are. you might think you are someone else. Or you might just be dazed and take time to remember yourself. This happens often in deep meditation or even in deep sleep.

In deep sleep you are not conscious so it is useless given your first statement. One may change personality or be dazed but one's consciousness remains in either case.

PastorAIO:

Personally I don't believe that there is any difference between Consciousness and Being. To Be, to exist is Consciousness. To be Conscious is to Exist.

Wrong. Consciousness essentially involves knowing existence of anything illusory or real. That's easy.

But things exist whether there are conscious lifeforms or not. They do not need our consciousness to exist. Obviously. So one cannot say consciousness and existence are the same.

Existence would be anything that has being in itself or as concieved/percieved in a mind.

PastorAIO:

Note that I say 'I don't believe'. I use the word 'believe' because I don't think this is something that can be demonstrated.

Okay.

PastorAIO:

In fact Consciousness cannot be demonstrated at all and it is totally utterly subjective. That therefore makes all the arguments in the OP moot.

It depends on what you mean by subjective. Consciousness is objective since it is the means by which we know what is subjective and objective. It is also subjective for that reason. Even if it were subjective it will not make my premises moot, they don't need consciousness to be demonstrable like matter. That is piss poor reasoning. Try again.

PastorAIO:



The problem with Thoughts and Beliefs is that most of them occur below conscious awareness, and the thoughts and beliefs that we are aware of are only a tip of the iceberg of all the cogitative processes going on in our minds.
Oh, and I'm sure you've noted another use of the word 'consciousness'. psychology since Freud has divided human mental processes into conscious aware, sub conscious and even un-conscious. This is another quite different use of the word.

Maybe our conscious thoughts and beliefs are not enough to make something real because they can be undermined by our unconscious thoughts and beliefs.

Hmmmm

So what is real and what is false ? Are all truths real ?

Take a look at this :

I want you and ifenes to focus on these types of truths :

1. Necessary truth :1+1=2 .This is a necessary truth . It is not dependent on our thoughts or beliefs . It can never be false because necessary truths are proposition that could not possibly have been false. The are true in every possible world .

2. Contingent truth : A contingent truth is a true proposition that could have been false . This is true in some possible worlds and not in other possible worlds.

3. Synthetic Truth : In this case , this truth can only be determined by relying on observation and experience.

With these , not everything is dependent on our thoughts and beliefs . Sometimes our experiences mould our thoughts and beliefs . I mean ontological arguments are formed or are based on these truths and more .

PastorAIO:
A good example of this dichotomy is with christians that claim to believe that they are going to heaven to be with God when they die and it will all be blissful and hunkydory yet when faced with the prospect of fast tracking to this desired destination they run with fear and trepidation.

Who is afriad of heavenly bliss? Unless deep deep down you are not too convinced that there is any heavenly bliss awaiting you on the other side.

Hasty generalization .

There are Christians who have willingly laid their lives down because of their beliefs . During the communists regime (past and present ) led by the wicked despotic atheists , there were numerous cases of Christians who died because of their beliefs . The martyrs did same - historical evidence buttresses this .

Christians who are afraid are obviously not sure of their salvation .

But err , the fear of death is a natural thing . Even the brain is designed to ensure your survival . Emotions that are triggered in the face of danger are just concomitant and involuntary .

ifenes:


The Universe is not real, it is nothing but the product of Consciousness,and Consciousness is awareness which is an attribute of you and I. Basically the Universe responds to your thought pattern. What you think of the Universe is what it becomes.

That's what I'm saying. . .sounds good in theory but I'm yet to experience this in real life. . .