Question:
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I tell non-Muslims that Allah created everything in this universe. They ask me who created Allah ? How can Allaah have been there since the beginning?
How can I answer them?
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Published Date: 2000-02-24
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Praise be to Allaah.

This question which the non Muslims have asked you is inherently false and self-contradictory. If we were to say – for the sake of argument – that someone created Allaah, then they would ask you, Who created the creator of the Creator? Then, who created the creator of the creator of the creator?! And so on, ad infinitum. This is irrational and impossible.
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All of creation goes back to the Creator Who created all things. No one created Him; He created everything other than Himself. This is what makes sense and is logical. This Creator is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted.
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With regard to what our religion tells us, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us about this question, where it comes from, and how to respond to it.

Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “People will keep on asking questions until someone will say, ‘Allaah created the universe, but who created Allaah?’ Whoever encounters anything like that, let him say, ‘Amantu Billaah (I believe in Allaah).’”

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Shaytaan will come to one of you and say, ‘Who created the heaven? Who created the earth?’ He will say, ‘Allaah’” – then he mentioned something similar (to the previous report), and added, “And His Messengers.” [i.e., amantu Billaah wa Rusulihi = I believe in Allaah and His Messengers]

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Shaytaan will come to one of you and say, ‘Who created such and such?’ until he says to him, ‘Who created your Lord?’ When it reaches that stage, let him seek refuge with Allaah [say A’oodhu Billaahi min ash-shaytaan ir-rajeem = I seek refuge with Allaah from the accursed Shaytaan] and stop thinking about it.”

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Shaytaan will come to a person and say, ‘Who created such and such…’” and he narrated the whole report. (Imaam Muslim, 134).

In these ahaadeeth (Prophetic narrations) we see:

Where this question comes from – from the Shaytaan;

How to deal with it, which is:

to stop pursuing these thoughts and these tricks of the Shaytaan

to say, “I believe in Allaah and His Messengers”

to seek refuge with Allaah from the Shaytaan.

It was also reported that one should spit drily three times to one’s left, and recite Qul Huwa Allaahu ahad.

(See "Problems and Solutions" in the Shaykh’s Books section of this website).

3. With regard to the prior existence of Allaah, our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has told us about this, for example:

He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O Allaah, You are the First and there is nothing before You; O Allaah, You are the Last and there is nothing after You.” (Narrated by Muslim, 2713)

He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah existed when there was nothing apart from Him.” According to another report: “There was nothing before Him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari; the first report 3020; the second report 6982).

This is in addition to what is stated in the aayaat (verses) of the Qur’aan. The believer believes without a doubt, the non Muslim denies and the munaafiq (hypocrite) doubts. We ask Allaah to grant us sincere and certain faith with no doubts.
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And Allaah is the Source of strength.

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
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https://islamqa.info/en/6660
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Cc: Sissie

It's also irrational and problematic to logic to claim Allah was not created and as well say "there's a creator for everything". It's either you accept the infinite regress chain(Allah having a higher creator) or you accept what created everything is unknown or there's no creator.

Let's agree Allah is the creator and not created, tracing back his existence Allah must have created himself at one point in time(since the writer above said infinitum is irrational and impossible), there is a beginning for his existence but if you insist Allah is infinite then same argument goes below...

We don't know if the universe had a beginning or infinite, or if there are many universe (multiverse), so we can also use same argument of Allah for the universe!

And lastly, there are over thousands of creators in religions, so what makes Allah the one only true creator out of other creators, because a book said so? yes?

^^^^

You don't make sense.


The question stands, what's your idea or module of "creator" or how creator should be?. You need to answer that bcuz you have literally rejected or denied Creator which makes you disbeliever.

Empiree:
^^^^

You don't make sense.


The question stands, what's your idea or module of "creator" or how creator should be?. You need to answer that bcuz you have literally rejected or denied Creator which makes you disbeliever.

The idea of a creator is unknown to me(except for the definition on Google), I don't know if there is a creator or not, I'm not speaking for a creator or claiming one.

So the burden of telling the idea or module of a creator is on you, so let's discuss it, make me understand your creator "logically".

tintingz:
The idea of a creator is unknown to me(except for the definition on Google), I don't know if there is a creator or not, I'm not speaking for a creator or claiming one.

and you have been duly informed. There is nothing to discuss. You have confessed you don't know about Creator. Hence, the need for you to learn (which some of us here already lectured you). When you were in high school, if you didnt know something you simply asked your teacher, isn't?. You didn't contest his/her reply. My point is, since you don't know about God, then, you have no option but to agree with our arguments.

So the burden of telling the idea or module of a creator is on you, so let's discuss it, make me understand your creator "logically".

Unfortunately for you we already did numerous times. So the burden is no longer with us. Since you reject our idea of who the Creator is, then, onus is on you to tell us yours. There is no need for us to tell you anything logically since you have rejected our "logic".

Empiree:
and you have been duly informed. There is nothing to discuss. You have confessed you don't know about Creator. Hence, the need for you to learn (which some of us here already lectured you).

There are over thousands of creators, are you asking me to start mentioning each idea of these creators? Like I said I only know the definition of creator (from Google).

I don't subscribe to any creator so I don't know about the nature of any creator, don't force me to pick one!

When you were in high school, if you didnt know something you simply asked your teacher, isn't?. You didn't contest his/her reply. My point is, since you don't know about God, then, you have no option but to agree with our arguments.

In my lecture classes we argue with the lecturers if thier explanation are irrational, imagine a lecturer telling us about a leprechaun without no references for his existence, or a mathematics lecturer explaining nonsense in class, won't you challenge him?

In Islam you dare not challenge the existence of Allah, just like the OP said "The believer believes without a doubt" or shaytan is messing with your thoughts. Like I asked in my previous post, make me understand your creator.

Unfortunately for you we already did numerous times. So the burden is no longer with us. Since you reject our idea of who the Creator is, then, onus is on you to tell us yours. There is no need for us to tell you anything logical since you have rejected our "logic".

Telling something countless times doesn't mean you answered the questions thrown at you, telling me an invisible giant teapot is revolving around the earth without telling how it got there or how you know it's there is irrational! Either you explain (which make sense) or you don't know or there's no invisible teapot up there.

The burden of explaining a creator is not on me, I'm not the one claiming one, I'm not the one claiming one creator is the true one out of many creators, don't make me explain what I'm not claiming.

I'm ready to accept your logic if you're ready to accept mine also. 50/50.

tintingz:
It's also irrational and problematic to logic to claim Allah was not created and as well say "there's a creator for everything". It's either you accept the infinite regress chain(Allah having a higher creator) or you accept what created everything is unknown or there's no creator.

What kind of Shayaateen is flowing in your veins? What created everything that you claim is unknown is Allah. The one and only creator.

Let's agree Allah is the creator and not created, tracing back his existence Allah must have created himself at one point in time(since the writer above said infinitum is irrational and impossible), there is a beginning for his existence but if you insist Allah is infinite then same argument goes below...

Allah is not comparable to humans! He has no beginning and no end! You need to get it that the Creator and the created are not of the same nature.

We don't know if the universe had a beginning or infinite, or if there are many universe (multiverse), so we can also use same argument of Allah for the universe!

Anything that has a beginning would definitely have a end. Allah has no beginning. The universe never existed before...and surely it will end one day. You have a beginning and you will die some day.

And lastly, there are over thousands of creators in religions, so what makes Allah the one only true creator out of other creators, because a book said so? yes?

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As for the claims of other religions you can refer to them to prove to you that theirs is the true creator!
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Lastly, You presented a flawed argument in your overall comment. Allah created time and space. He existed before anything. And His existence is infinite and eternal. Allah is He whom there's nothing above Him and nothing before Him.

Rashduct4luv:

What kind of Shayaateen is flowing in your veins?

Empiree you see what I'm talking about.

What created everything that you claim is unknown is Allah. The one and only creator.

Then who created Allah? Or you don't believe everything must have a creator?

Allah is not comparable to humans! He has no beginning and no end! You need to get it that the Creator and the created are not of the same nature.

The OP contradict your statement here, he claim "Ad Infinitum" is irrational and impossible then how come Allah is infinite? Allah must have had a beginning at a point in time.

Anything that has a beginning would definitely have a end. Allah has no beginning. The universe never existed before...and surely it will end one day. You have a beginning and you will die some day.

The universe is still been studied, we don't know if the universe has a beginning or infinite or multiple (multiverse). The argument for Allah is also same for the universe.

As for the claims of other religions you can refer to them to prove to you that theirs is the true creator!

You can see your statement here is relative, every religion believe thier God is the true God. If I see any person in other religions claiming his/her God is the true one, I will challenge the person.

Allah is the true God, this your claim, now prove it!

Lastly, You presented a flawed argument in your overall comment. Allah created time and space. He existed before anything. And His existence is infinite and eternal. Allah is He whom there's nothing above Him and nothing before Him.

No, the OP argument is flawed, contradicting, sentimental and problematic.

# Allah created time and space, then he's stuck, bound and eslave to time and space just like we humans since he has matter and energy to do so.

# If Allah is before time and space and Nothing above him and before him then what domain is he in, he is confined outside time and space and also has nothing to do with this our natural world, he's Nothing to us!

# If Allah is infinite then it's problematic to what the OP said about "impossibility of Ad Infinitum" and secondly the Universe can also be infinite.

tintingz:
Empiree you see what I'm talking about.

What did you tell him about? The question is only rhetoric!

Then who created Allah? Or you don't believe everything must have a creator?

He is far from being created. I dont believe. He has a different nature from ours.

The OP contradict your statement here, he claim "Ad Infinitum" is irrational and impossible then how come Allah is infinite? Allah must have had a beginning at a point in time.

Creator creates the creations! The moment you think the creator too was created then there seems to be no creator!

The universe is still been studied, we don't know if the universe has a beginning or infinite or multiple (multiverse). The argument for Allah is also same for the universe.

Is Allah and the universe of the same nature? How is this your statement logical?

You can see your statement here is relative, every religion believe thier God is the true God. If I see any person in other religions claiming his/her God is the true one, I will challenge the person.

Allah is the true God, this your claim, now prove it!

How should i prove it to you? By taking you to Him so that He can prove it to you Himself abi?

# Allah created time and space, then he's stuck, bound and eslave to time and space just like we humans since he has matter and energy to do so.

# If Allah is before time and space and Nothing above him and before him then what domain is he in, he is confined outside time and space and also has nothing to do with this our natural world, he's Nothing to us!

# If Allah is infinite then it's problematic to what the OP said about "impossibility of Ad Infinitum" and secondly the Universe can also be infinite.

He is far above being bound by any rule meant for humans! He is never bound by time nor space. Matter and energy are related to created beings. If Allah intends anything He just say be and it starts existing.
Allah describes Himself in 57:3 that:
He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing.
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How can the universe be infinite? Did the big bang came before everything?

Of course, the question who created God can only be inspired from a mind devoid of divine light, as well as a mind that fails to reflect and apply proper reasoning.

First of all, the question doesn’t give any insight to help any believer perform his religious obligations to the creator, and equally does not help the non-believer in disproving the existence of this God.

The latter whom the OP addresses would always bring irrelevancies to establish his non-believe, forgetting he in most cases hold on to ideas and speculations of men that have yet to be substantiated e.g. origin of the universe à la quantum vacuum fluctuations, dark matter etc.…While they succumb to stating lack of knowing or knowledge after they might have ostensibly claim with gusto how there is no God for “lack of evidence” but gleefully read loads and loads of scientific speculations and assumptions about the universe and the origin of life (and believing them to be the “gospel” truth), as it is well known, they keep singing different tunes with each "groundbreaking" discoveries.

Allah (SWT) describes these people when He says: Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]? Or did they create heavens and earth? Rather, they are not certain.” (Q 52:35-36)

At the end of the day, “we do not know” “something mysterious” etc. and the funniest being “scientist are still working on unraveling…” are the final statements of these non-believers. They are uncertain, and one wonders how long it would take these scientists to answer all of the questions about this life and the universe, as the saying goes, time would tell, unfortunately, we don't have such luxury of enough time….

Be that as it may, as pointed out earlier with regards the lack of appropriate reasoning which beclouds the mind of non-believers leading them to ask irrelevant questions such as who created God, one would only need to first understand the creator and the characteristics of this creator. As humans who created (invented) the computer, and having the superior intelligence that what is created cannot have same origin and characteristics as the creator, thus it would be foolhardy for anyone to think that the creation of a computer is the same as that of the creator of the computer. That is, at best, using this reasoning, we can only conclude that the creator of the universe and life would be nothing like the creation (including origin if there is such possibility, which isn’t, I must emphasize…)

Looking at how extensive the universe is, coupled with the complexities that cannot even be elucidated still, wouldn’t it be "commonsensical" to realize that the creator of all this would be far greater than what He had created?! So how would we the creation seek to know the origin of the creator when we are still overwhelmed by the magnificence of the creation including ourselves the questioner?!

Well, the creator knew the creation and gave what would suffice, by that, I mean what is necessary for the intelligent mind to comprehend and release man from his self-inflicted doubts about who the creator is…

Allah (SWT) says:

Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal Refuge
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."
(Q112:1-4)

Allah (God) is one, and has no equivalent (there is nothing like him), he doesn’t reproduce, and was never born (i.e no origin)…That the universe and life as we know it came from a source (God) that has always been and will always be is the only reasonable explanation for everything, else, everything would have no meaning at all or would never even exist to begin with!

Even, it beyonds imagination. He created all, no one created him. Allah Subhanahu waTahaLah

Rashduct4luv:
What did you tell him about? The question is only rhetoric!

I told him Muslims believe anyone who challenge the existence of Allah is on influence of shaytan.

He is far from being created. I dont believe. He has a different nature from ours.

You don't believe everything has a creator?

Creator creates the creations! The moment you think the creator too was created then there seems to be no creator!

Wrong! Anybody can be a creator/inventor, humans have invented many things so why can't Allah have a creator? Why can't there be multiple creators or your logic can only depict one creator?

Is Allah and the universe of the same nature? How is this your statement logical?

Ofcos they are not of the same nature, Allah is imaginary and can't be observed, the universe can be observed.

The similarities between Allah and Universe are, Allah is either infinite or has a beginning, the universe can be infinite or has a beginning.

The pantheists, Pandeist see the universe as a God/s.

How should i prove it to you? By taking you to Him so that He can prove it to you Himself abi?

Since you have that 100% confidence that Allah exist and he's the only true God, proving him shouldn't be a problem. You can talk to Allah to reveal himself instead of you speaking for him.

He is far above being bound by any rule meant for humans! He is never bound by time nor space. Matter and energy are related to created beings. If Allah intends anything He just say be and it starts existing.
Allah describes Himself in 57:3 that:
He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing.

If Allah is not bound to time and space then how come he knows the future? Does he have it in his plan to create the universe? Does he reason before he do things? You should know future, reasoning and plan works with time.

The second problem here is, matter and energy are within the universe, If Allah can create matter and energy then he has matter and energy, that makes him not different from our natural phenomenon or he created matter and energy from Nothing?

The third problem, Allah is above or outside the universe, then what domain is he in? Was he in a nothingness state before he created everything or what? Where did he get the idea of creating the universe? Was he frozen somewhere and something moved him?

These are the questions you need to reflect on.

How can the universe be infinite? Did the big bang came before everything?

The events that happened before the big bang is not certainly known yet but there are theories on it, I'm not a physicist, but there is something called gravitational singularity, this is where a density is in infinite state.

The absurdity of an infinite regress

You see, because you are here, you know you had an ancestry. It is the only rational deduction. The whole world is here acting with incredible precision and design. We know there must be an intelligent designer. It is the only rational deduction

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Imagine you are working around in the desert and you find a mobile phone. Around you in the desert, you have the basic raw materials needed to make a mobile phone. You have sand from which you can make glass, silicon chip. You have oil to make plastic, you have traces of precious metals to make the circuit board, you have heat (the sun).

The point is this: The basic minerals needed to make a mobile phone exist in the desert and some of them are in large amounts but you do not see a mobile phone and come to the conclusion that it is as a result of billions of years of random weather or conditions. Common sense tells you that someone dropped it there. Any other option is ridiculous.

Again, we look at a mobile phone and see that it has systems and patterns working in harmony, We see the same thing in our universe. This indicates a designer.

Also everything that began to exist has a cause; the universe began to exist, so it has a cause. It goes against everything we know as humans that things just come into existence. It is common sense.

So what can we conclude about this cause?

i. The nature of the cause of the universe must be different from the universe because if its nature was the same as the universe, it would be the same as the universe. In other words, it would be more of the same.

And then we have to ask: What brought that into existence? What caused that? Everything that begins to exist must have a cause, The creator never began to exist. This leads to the absurdity of the infinite regress of causes. The universe must have had a finite start and must therefore have a cause different from it.

We can safely conclude that the cause of the universe must be different from it. The cause of the universe never began to exist therefore it doesn't need a cause itself. The universe is finite, this cause is infinite. This universe is needy, this cause is self-sufficient.

It is easy to conclude that the cause for this universe must be infinite, self-sufficient, Intelligent, unconfined by space and time (a feature of our universe). One that has will and power. This is the most rational conclusion we can make for the cause of our universe, everything else sounds just crazy. I mean, fairy tale land crazy...

We can only rationally conceive of one such being, There can't be two infinite, self-sufficient, Intelligent powerful beings. There can only be one, if there was two, one will necessarily restrict the power of the other. It is not difficult to see using reason how we can come to believe in one creator of the universe.

This is what most people call God.

The creator of the universe is not bounded by the laws of the universe because He can exist outside it. Time and space are constructs that we understand because we live in the universe.

The absurdity of an infinite regress of causes means there must have been a finite start to the universe. An uncreated Creator.

Imagine, i asked you to reply after seeking permission from Sino and Sino has to seek permission from someone else and this goes on forever.. Would you ever reply? This is the absurdity of an infinite regress.. Things do not go on infinitely otherwise we will have no universe.

The fact that we have a universe is evidence for a finite start.

When you come across such incredible co-incidences, a rational thinking person does not attribute it to chance. Everything is working in a way such that we survive of this earth. I guess there is a chance that the mobile phone in the desert got formed by incidents of random weather conditions too?? Does that sound rational to you...

That is the irrationality of atheist thought. It borders on the level of stupidity.

It is not a case of we don't know... It is a case of design and causality .. All of which using common sense point to a creator and a designer. It is common sense.

Whether there are other creatures in the universe is irrelevant to this argument, Our solar system moves in particular patterns. A rationally thinking person can only think design.

I look at road networks and i do not assume it got formed randomly or that i do not know... I know there is a designer.

Actually, the Quran encourages us to look into the universe, the more we learn about the Universe , the more you would be certain of the existence of a God. That is why early and medevial muslim scholars were also scientists.

Look at the human brain... One of the most complicated systems in the world. You look at it and all you see is a designer. The DNA, the weather patterns.. You attribute a mobile phone to design and more complex working designs to chance.

This is the irrationality of atheist thought.

There seems to be a pattern, a system to how every thing works... Applying our common sense, we see that and know it was designed. Everywhere you turn, everything you look at...

Do you know how many diseases your immune system saves you from everyday. you will be dead without one. The white blood cells are affected by food and other habits (alcohol, smoking etc). There are times that they could be down and we need drugs. It does not take away at all from their effectiveness and an indication to design.

This grand conspiracy to keep us alive.

Common sense will not attribute any of these to luck or chance. The odds are too mind-boggling

Otherwise i can attribute anything to chance, I can say you fell out of the sky... At least, there is a chance... It does not matter how ridiculous the odds are.

This is the irrationality of atheism.

sino:
Of course, the question who created God can only be inspired from a mind devoid of divine light, as well as a mind that fails to reflect and apply proper reasoning.

First of all, the question doesn’t give any insight to help any believer perform his religious obligations to the creator, and equally does not help the non-believer in disproving the existence of this God.

The latter whom the OP addresses would always bring irrelevancies to establish his non-believe, forgetting he in most cases hold on to ideas and speculations of men that have yet to be substantiated e.g. origin of the universe à la quantum vacuum fluctuations, dark matter etc.…While they succumb to stating lack of knowing or knowledge after they might have ostensibly claim with gusto how there is no God for “lack of evidence” but gleefully read loads and loads of scientific speculations and assumptions about the universe and the origin of life (and believing them to be the “gospel” truth), as it is well known, they keep singing different tunes with each "groundbreaking" discoveries.

Allah (SWT) describes these people when He says: Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]? Or did they create heavens and earth? Rather, they are not certain.” (Q 52:35-36)

At the end of the day, “we do not know” “something mysterious” etc. and the funniest being “scientist are still working on unraveling…” are the final statements of these non-believers. They are uncertain, and one wonders how long it would take these scientists to answer all of the questions about this life and the universe, as the saying goes, time would tell, unfortunately, we don't have such luxury of enough time….

Be that as it may, as pointed out earlier with regards the lack of appropriate reasoning which beclouds the mind of non-believers leading them to ask irrelevant questions such as who created God, one would only need to first understand the creator and the characteristics of this creator. As humans who created (invented) the computer, and having the superior intelligence that what is created cannot have same origin and characteristics as the creator, thus it would be foolhardy for anyone to think that the creation of a computer is the same as that of the creator of the computer. That is, at best, using this reasoning, we can only conclude that the creator of the universe and life would be nothing like the creation (including origin if there is such possibility, which isn’t, I must emphasize…)

Looking at how extensive the universe is, coupled with the complexities that cannot even be elucidated still, wouldn’t it be "commonsensical" to realize that the creator of all this would be far greater than what He had created?! So how would we the creation seek to know the origin of the creator when we are still overwhelmed by the magnificence of the creation including ourselves the questioner?!

Well, the creator knew the creation and gave what would suffice, by that, I mean what is necessary for the intelligent mind to comprehend and release man from his self-inflicted doubts about who the creator is…

Allah (SWT) says:

Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal Refuge
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."
(Q112:1-4)

Allah (God) is one, and has no equivalent (there is nothing like him), he doesn’t reproduce, and was never born (i.e no origin)…That the universe and life as we know it came from a source (God) that has always been and will always be is the only reasonable explanation for everything, else, everything would have no meaning at all or would never even exist to begin with!

You have some problem in your post.

I use to think you're one of the few rational people in this section but you disappoint me day by day.

# First of all, you already gave an assumption and fallacious statement that we can't know everything, you are making use of "god of the gaps" as your evidence of god, now the question is, what will happen when science finally have answers to everything around us(closing all gaps) and see them as natural phenomenon, what then will happen to your God(Allah)?

# Humans have limit in knowledge and we evolve in our knowledge capacity, now answer this for Allah, why did Allah the all-powerful and all-knowing need modifying his creations after creating them(divine laws) or left his creations to modify themselves(evolution)?

# Between Science and Allah who is "just" to the title "all-knowing"?

I told him Muslims believe anyone who challenge the existence of Allah is on influence of shaytan.

Ok. That's very true cos it's from Shaytaan's whispers to make you not believe in Allaah!

You don't believe everything has a creator?

Every creatures was created by Allah and He has no creator!

Wrong! Anybody can be a creator/inventor, humans have invented many things so why can't Allah have a creator? Why can't there be multiple creators or your logic can only depict one creator?

Creator is different from inventor. Can man create a new thing from nothing? He uses materials available from the earth so indirectly he is not creating he's only inventing. Allaah creates things! Humans can invent from materials available. Allah created the universe, time & Space. Allah can't be compared to Humans!

Ofcos they are not of the same nature, Allah is imaginary and can't be observed, the universe can be observed.

Only an insensitive mind says this. You believe there's someone who always create some other thing without end right? You just keep making same mistake comparing Allah to humans. Can you explain the how the universe came in to existence logically?

The similarities between Allah and Universe are, Allah is either infinite or has a beginning, the universe can be infinite or has a beginning.

This Comparison again! If man invent computers, can the nature of man be compared to that of his invention?

Since you have that 100% confidence that Allah exist and he's the only true God, proving him shouldn't be a problem. You can talk to Allah to reveal himself instead of you speaking for him.

Don't worry! You will soon know the reality!

If Allah is not bound to time and space then how come he knows the future? Does he have it in his plan to create the universe? Does he reason before he do things? You should know future, reasoning and plan works with time.[quote] Because He created everything so He know everything!He does whatever He wills. He is no comparable to his creations!

[quote] The second problem here is, matter and energy are within the universe, If Allah can create matter and energy then he has matter and energy, that makes him not different from our natural phenomenon or he created matter and energy from Nothing?

Same thing again! Comparison. Allah is not comparable!

The third problem, Allah is above or outside the universe, then what domain is he in? Was he in a nothingness state before he created everything or what? Where did he get the idea of creating the universe? Was he frozen somewhere and something moved him?

Still comparing again? I tire o! So you are just thinking like an atheist sha!

These are the questions you need to reflect on.

No need to reflect on it Shaytaan has really toyed with someones brain!

tbaba1234:
The absurdity of an infinite regress

You see, because you are here, you know you had an ancestry. It is the only rational deduction. The whole world is here acting with incredible precision and design. We know there must be an intelligent designer. It is the only rational deduction

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Imagine you are working around in the desert and you find a mobile phone. Around you in the desert, you have the basic raw materials needed to make a mobile phone. You have sand from which you can make glass, silicon chip. You have oil to make plastic, you have traces of precious metals to make the circuit board, you have heat (the sun).

The point is this: The basic minerals needed to make a mobile phone exist in the desert and some of them are in large amounts but you do not see a mobile phone and come to the conclusion that it is as a result of billions of years of random weather or conditions. Common sense tells you that someone dropped it there. Any other option is ridiculous.

Again, we look at a mobile phone and see that it has systems and patterns working in harmony, We see the same thing in our universe. This indicates a designer.

Also everything that began to exist has a cause; the universe began to exist, so it has a cause. It goes against everything we know as humans that things just come into existence. It is common sense.

So what can we conclude about this cause?

i. The nature of the cause of the universe must be different from the universe because if its nature was the same as the universe, it would be the same as the universe. In other words, it would be more of the same.

And then we have to ask: What brought that into existence? What caused that? Everything that begins to exist must have a cause, The creator never began to exist. This leads to the absurdity of the infinite regress of causes. The universe must have had a finite start and must therefore have a cause different from it.

We can safely conclude that the cause of the universe must be different from it. The cause of the universe never began to exist therefore it doesn't need a cause itself. The universe is finite, this cause is infinite. This universe is needy, this cause is self-sufficient.

It is easy to conclude that the cause for this universe must be infinite, self-sufficient, Intelligent, unconfined by space and time (a feature of our universe). One that has will and power. This is the most rational conclusion we can make for the cause of our universe, everything else sounds just crazy. I mean, fairy tale land crazy...

We can only rationally conceive of one such being, There can't be two infinite, self-sufficient, Intelligent powerful beings. There can only be one, if there was two, one will necessarily restrict the power of the other. It is not difficult to see using reason how we can come to believe in one creator of the universe.

This is what most people call God.

The creator of the universe is not bounded by the laws of the universe because He can exist outside it. Time and space are constructs that we understand because we live in the universe.

The absurdity of an infinite regress of causes means there must have been a finite start to the universe. An uncreated Creator.

Imagine, i asked you to reply after seeking permission from Sino and Sino has to seek permission from someone else and this goes on forever.. Would you ever reply? This is the absurdity of an infinite regress.. Things do not go on infinitely otherwise we will have no universe.

The fact that we have a universe is evidence for a finite start.

When you come across such incredible co-incidences, a rational thinking person does not attribute it to chance. Everything is working in a way such that we survive of this earth. I guess there is a chance that the mobile phone in the desert got formed by incidents of random weather conditions too?? Does that sound rational to you...

That is the irrationality of atheist thought. It borders on the level of stupidity.

It is not a case of we don't know... It is a case of design and causality .. All of which using common sense point to a creator and a designer. It is common sense.

Whether there are other creatures in the universe is irrelevant to this argument, Our solar system moves in particular patterns. A rationally thinking person can only think design.

I look at road networks and i do not assume it got formed randomly or that i do not know... I know there is a designer.

Actually, the Quran encourages us to look into the universe, the more we learn about the Universe , the more you would be certain of the existence of a God. That is why early and medevial muslim scholars were also scientists.

Look at the human brain... One of the most complicated systems in the world. You look at it and all you see is a designer. The DNA, the weather patterns.. You attribute a mobile phone to design and more complex working designs to chance.

This is the irrationality of atheist thought.

There seems to be a pattern, a system to how every thing works... Applying our common sense, we see that and know it was designed. Everywhere you turn, everything you look at...

Do you know how many diseases your immune system saves you from everyday. you will be dead without one. The white blood cells are affected by food and other habits (alcohol, smoking etc). There are times that they could be down and we need drugs. It does not take away at all from their effectiveness and an indication to design.

This grand conspiracy to keep us alive.

Common sense will not attribute any of these to luck or chance. The odds are too mind-boggling

Otherwise i can attribute anything to chance, I can say you fell out of the sky... At least, there is a chance... It does not matter how ridiculous the odds are.

This is the irrationality of atheism.

Lol, so your post here is rational? The bolded-underlined parts are problematic.

Ok, your pleading and apologetic usage of God of the gaps is getting boring.

Because something cannot be explain now "oh yeah God did it" the god-did-it crew.

And go on with the sentiment of filling Allah to the "gaps".

Your irrationality of your post is when you said "Everything that begins to exist has a cause." and exclude Allah from "everything", please tell me how is this logic? If Allah is not part of everything then he's Nothing?

I wont follow this your logic, why Allah is singled out from everything? What happens to Brahma, Odin, Olorun, unicorn, FSM, Leprechaun, Santa, why can't they be singled out since you can't disprove these entities or can you?

If everything must have a creator then who created Allah?

You can as well respond to my reaction to sino's post.

https://www.nairaland.com/4290485/non-muslims-ask-created-allaah#64305748

tintingz:
Lol, so your post here is rational? The bolded parts are problematic.

Ok, your pleading and apologetic usage of God of the gaps is getting boring.

Because something cannot be explain now "oh yeah God did it" the god-did-it crew.

And go on with the sentiment of filling Allah to the "gaps".

Your irrationality of your post is when you said "Everything that begins to exist has a cause." and exclude Allah from "everything", please tell me how is this logic? If Allah is not part of everything then he's Nothing?

I wont follow this your logic, why Allah is singled out from everything? What happens to Brahma, Odin, Olorun, unicorn, FSM, Leprechaun, Santa, why can't they be singled out since you can't disprove these entities or can you?

If everything must have a creator then who created Allah?

KEEP GOING ROUND & ROUND.....

This question which the non Muslims have asked you is inherently false and self-contradictory. If we were to say – for the sake of argument – that someone created Allaah, then they would ask you, Who created the creator of the Creator? Then, who created the creator of the creator of the creator?! And so on, ad infinitum. This is irrational and impossible.
.
All of creation goes back to the Creator Who created all things. No one created Him; He created everything other than Himself. This is what makes sense and is logical. This Creator is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted.

tbaba1234:
The absurdity of an infinite regress

...........

This is the irrationality of atheism.

Not only absurdity and irrationality, but also wanton irresponsibility! Atheists want to eat their cakes and have it, what would an infinite regress amount to, when it is certain that there is a end, especially for life! These are facts, and one needs not understand scientific jargon to appreciate the truth that this universe and all that exist within it were created, and there can be only one creator!

Rashduct4luv:
Ok. That's very true cos it's from Shaytaan's whispers to make you not believe in Allaah!

Lol, what if shaytan is the good guy here?

Every creatures was created by Allah and He has no creator!

But you said everything must have a creator. Are you confused?

Creator is different from inventor. Can man create a new thing from nothing? He uses materials available from the earth so indirectly he is not creating he's only inventing. Allaah creates things! Humans can invent from materials available. Allah created the universe, time & Space. Allah can't be compared to Humans!

Did Allah create the universe from nothing?

# Why does Allah need sand to create humans, is he not behaving like humans?

# If Allah created matter and energy then he must have that in him, if he has matter and energy in him then he is not different from every other natural phenomenon and he is bound to time and space, these can only function within the universe.

Only an insensitive mind says this. You believe there's someone who always create some other thing without end right? You just keep making same mistake comparing Allah to humans. Can you explain the how the universe came in to existence logically?

"Everything must have a creator" is an infinite regress itself, if you believe in this then you shouldn't find it hard to believe Allah has a creator, you cant just claim Allah is the grand or ultimate creator, that is pleading, cherry picking and irrational!

How the universe started are still theories being study on.

This Comparison again! If man invent computers, can the nature of man be compared to that of his invention?

Are you not comparing Allah to man here already? Read your analogy again.

A man(the computer inventor) must have a creator, it is Allah right?

Same analogy goes to Allah, who created Allah?

Don't worry! You will soon know the reality!

Unfortunately, you are the one imagining a fairy God so what reality are you talking about?

Because He created everything so He know everything! He does whatever He wills. He is no comparable to his creations!

Your God does not reason that he do/does whatever he wants? No wonder he cant do nothing about natural disasters he created.

Same thing again! Comparison. Allah is not comparable!

I tire o! So you are just thinking like an atheist sha!

No need to reflect on it Shaytaan has really toyed with someones brain!

I can see you dodge the question thrown at you, you are screaming comparison meanwhile you used human analogy for your God to buttress your engagement. Stop being hypocritical.

it is only nothing that cant be compared, is Allah nothing?

sino:


Not only absurdity and irrationality, but also wanton irresponsibility! Atheists want to eat their cakes and have it, what would an infinite regress amount to, when it is certain that there is a end, especially for life! These are facts, and one needs not understand scientific jargon to appreciate the truth that this universe and all that exist within it were created, and there can be only one creator!

This guy knows very little which makes his case even worse. I mean, there are a few atheists that can even make decent arguments but look at how he tied a simple rational argument of finite causality to 'God of the gaps'..

He does not even know what 'God of the gaps' means.

Rashduct4luv:
KEEP GOING ROUND & ROUND.....

This question which the non Muslims have asked you is inherently false and self-contradictory. If we were to say – for the sake of argument – that someone created Allaah, then they would ask you, Who created the creator of the Creator? Then, who created the creator of the creator of the creator?! And so on, ad infinitum. This is irrational and impossible.

The premise that "Everything must have a creator is ad infinitum itself", a cycle model, stop contradicting yourself and being irrational. I once asked if Allah is infinite, does that not contradict your statement that infinitum is irrational and impossible?

Oga, i dont have problem with infinite regress or existence of multiple causes, you are the one having problem with it just because you cant accept or imagine Allah having a creator!

All of creation goes back to the Creator Who created all things. No one created Him; He created everything other than Himself. This is what makes sense and is logical. This Creator is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted.

No, it doesn't make sense when you try to smuggle in Allah to fill the gap as a creator, there are other creators.

I once asked, did Allah created himself or frozen in a nothingness domain/state before he created everything?

tintingz:
You have some problem in your post.

I use to think you're one of the few rational people in this section but you disappoint me day by day.

# First of all, you already gave an assumption and fallacious statement that we can't know everything, you are making use of "god of the gaps" as your evidence of god, now the question is, what will happen when science finally have answers to everything around us(closing all gaps) and see them as natural phenomenon, what then will happen to your God(Allah)?

# Humans have limit in knowledge and we evolve in our knowledge capacity, now answer this for Allah, why did Allah the all-powerful and all-knowing need modifying his creations after creating them(divine laws) or left his creations to modify themselves(evolution)?

# Between Science and Allah who is "just" to the title "all-knowing"?

Bro, Science and scientists would have answers to everything when?!

The natural phenomena that had been explained give more credence to the fact that there is a super intelligent designer (God), or what do you think of a DNA with over 3 billion base pairs containing information that makes you only you?! Even the quantum vacuum has energy, the question is where did this energy come from putting the first law of thermodynamics into consideration?!

I can go on and on, but if your approach is still what it is, you are not going to see the truth...

By the way, my evidence for there being a God is not about gaps, but the fact that we exist, and it is impossible that we came to existence by chance!

tbaba1234:


This guy knows very little which makes his case even worse. I mean, there are a few atheists that can even make decent arguments but look at how he tied a simple rational argument of finite causality to 'God of the gaps'..

He does not even know what 'God of the gaps' means.

I have often wondered if it would take an individual to study loads of scientific jargon before such can be an atheist...I know he doesn't have a science background, but this atheism is really giving him a lot of work to do and for what benefits?! I am at a loss!

I had to advise him at a point in time to understand the concepts of what he wants to use as an argument before bringing it up....

sino:


Bro, Science and scientists would have answers to everything when?!

How does Allah give answers to cure of diseases or how some natural phenomenon works?

Science does not have answers to everything "yet" but progressively, please tell me what answer does the Quran offer to humanity from ignorance?

The natural phenomena that had been explained give more credence to the fact that there is a super intelligent designer (God), or what do you think of a DNA with over 3 billion base pairs containing information that makes you only you?! Even the quantum vacuum has energy, the question is where did this energy come from putting the first law of thermodynamics into consideration?!

Ok, for argument sake, lets agree energy came from God, does God have energy and how does it link to your God?

I can go on and on, but if your approach is still what it is, you are not going to see the truth...

I once believe Islam is the true religion, you forgot?

By the way, my evidence for there being a God is not about gaps, but the fact that we exist, and it is impossible that we came to existence by chance!

How we came to existence no religion has the answer to it, just some superstitions, science has been able to tell how we came to be with evidence.

Out of many creators out there why did you choose Allah?

*sigh*

tintingz, hummm

sino:


Not only absurdity and irrationality, but also wanton irresponsibility! Atheists want to eat their cakes and have it, what would an infinite regress amount to, when it is certain that there is a end, especially for life! These are facts, and one needs not understand scientific jargon to appreciate the truth that this universe and all that exist within it were created, and there can be only one creator!

You and your fellows are the ones that want to eat your cake and have it too.

Simple logic is a problem!

You claiming "Everything must have a cause" is an infinite regression itself, a cycle model. If Z is the end then what could force to cause the beginning(A) if not Z? Or does 'A' comes from nothing?

So why are you trying to single out or smuggle out Allah? Is he the only imaginary entity? Is he not part of everything? You once use the analogy of an author and a book and I asked who caused the author, you said that is not relevant, you see your logic and your eating cake having it too?

The OP said ad Infinitum is irrational and impossible yet Allah is infinite, please who is eating his cake and having it too?

You lots should do better, maybe Albaqir should chip in, I think this is the right thread.

Empiree:
*sigh*

tintingz, hummm

how far oga.

tbaba1234:


[s]This guy knows very little which makes his case even worse.[/s] I mean, there are a few atheists that can even make decent arguments but look at how he tied a simple rational argument of finite causality to 'God of the gaps'..

He does not even know what 'God of the gaps' means.

Your pride and ego will not allow you to see how irrational you sound, Mr. God-did-it.

Here's your words,

Do you know how many diseases your immune system saves you from everyday. you will be dead without one. The white blood cells are affected by food and other habits (alcohol, smoking etc). There are times that they could be down and we need drugs. It does not take away at all from their effectiveness and an indication to design.

This grand conspiracy to keep us alive.

Common sense will not attribute any of these to luck or chance. The odds are too mind-boggling

This is what most people call God.

https://www.nairaland.com/4290485/non-muslims-ask-created-allaah#64308340

Above is your "God of the gaps" argument!

Answer this,

# Does Allah has matter and energy, can matter and energy exist/function outside the universe?

# An entity who reason, knows the future, plan not bound/eslave by time?

# How many cosmologist and physicists concluded the universe has a beginning and make it a fact?

# Is "everything must have a cause" not ad Infinitum? Is Allah infinite?

# Why does a perfect all-powerful and all-knowing God need a divine law for his creation.

Allah is God in english, creator of f universe chikena

tintingz:
It's also irrational and problematic to logic to claim Allah was not created and as well say "there's a creator for everything". It's either you accept the infinite regress chain(Allah having a higher creator) or you accept what created everything is unknown or there's no creator.

Let's agree Allah is the creator and not created, tracing back his existence Allah must have created himself at one point in time(since the writer above said infinitum is irrational and impossible), there is a beginning for his existence but if you insist Allah is infinite then same argument goes below...

We don't know if the universe had a beginning or infinite, or if there are many universe (multiverse), so we can also use same argument of Allah for the universe!

And lastly, there are over thousands of creators in religions, so what makes Allah the one only true creator out of other creators, because a book said so? yes?

amantullahiwarosulhi