Henry240:

American brutality at it's finest.

That's an Apache AH-64 firing it's 30mm chin gun at everyday Iraqi civilians.

They never observed the helo? The gun has a limited range so my opinion, they should have noticed the helo coming in OR what do you think?

BlackBaron:
@ andrewza and nemesis4u.

fair enough regarding your points.

Here's an interesting pdf about the topic. Posed the proof.

$10,000 per guidance kit doesn't seem affordable at all.

BlackBaron:
@ andrewza and nemesis4u.

fair enough regarding your points.

Here's an interesting pdf about the topic. Posed the question just in the event a very precise hit is needed to avoid collateral damage especially in urban environments. Take out a dug in building,cqb or an attacking force further away with a drone above providing overview.
Regarding costs, a guidance kit (The Orbital ATK Armament Systems M1156 PGK) fitted to 155 mm shells costs about $120,000.000 for 12000 units which is about $10,000 each?

I am talking of shells similar to The American Excalibur rounds. We do not have the type unless you want to furnish us with proof.

You know how many shells are being fired per day in the north east? Firing millions of dollars in the war against BHT won't be a good idea since we can easily get coordinates with ISR and fire unguided shells.

I don't understand this leftist idea of what war is. Is it supposed to be a Tea Party?

Makes no sense to me, war is not supposed to be pretty or a soap opera, it is brutal. I understand the need to reduce collateral damage, but it simply drives the cost of prosecuting an operation.

tdayof:


They never observed the helo? The gun has a limited range so my opinion, they should have noticed the helo coming in OR what do you think?

I'm sure they noticed the helo,but should we all run away upon sighting an MI-35 helo flying overhead our streets?

People going about their normal businesses getting wacked by a foreign AH in home soil.

tdayof:


You know how many shells are being fired per day in the north east? Firing millions of dollars in the war against BHT won't be a good idea since we can easily get coordinates with ISR and fire unguided shells.

Coordinates can easily be entered into in NA Bofors artillery systems.

Henry240:

Coordinates can easily be entered into in NA Bofors artillery systems.

Yes. Exactly why I said ISR can get the coordinates and then the artillery guys input it and then some dead BHT.

Henry240:

I'm sure they noticed the helo,but should we all run away upon sighting an MI-35 helo flying overhead our streets?

People going about their normal businesses getting wacked by a foreign AH in home soil.

Just noticed the guys were not armed.



Where's amnesty international? I bet if this was Nigeria, we will be getting immediate sanctions already before the deliver of the Tucanos.

tdayof:


You know how many shells are being fired per day in the north east? Firing millions of dollars in the war against BHT won't be a good idea since we can easily get coordinates with ISR and fire unguided shells.

You're merely boiling it down to costs. I'm asking of the possibility of also developing similar systems for ourselves. Unguided shells are sometimes inaccurate depending on factors. If needing close support with risks of troops nearby. What's the solution?

Henry240:
I don't understand this leftist idea of what war is. Is it supposed to be a Tea Party?

Makes no sense to me, war is not supposed to be pretty or a soap opera, it is brutal. I understand the need to reduce collateral damage, but it simply drives the cost of prosecuting an operation.

Fine mentality you got there Sir. Let's just level everything on a bf because we saw ten BH. What has the left also got to do with the discussions here.

BlackBaron:



Fine mentality you got there Sir. Let's just level everything on a bf because we saw ten BH. What has the left also got to do with the discussions here.

Are you sure you read my post at all?

I specifically said i understand the need for reduction of collateral damage but there is no political correctness in war. Wars involve the killing of other human beings, how do you want to rationalize that.

Or would your guided shells be lobbed at mannequins?

Henry240:

American brutality at it's finest.

That's an Apache AH-64 firing it's 30mm chin gun at everyday Iraqi civilians.

.

This was a long time ago when some Iraqi journalist were mistaken for militias.

Henry240:

Coordinates can easily be entered into in NA Bofors artillery systems.

Thank you

patches689:
@frumentus

Trying to prove/debunk this image and I keep coming up short.

So could we use the combined autism of this thread to track down the original image, or ID the jammer?

As Frumentius pointed out, they're used on CIT and truck hijacking. They're Chinese. They don't just block cellphone signals but satellite tracking and police communication as well. They're very common with Zimbabwean syndicates.

Was that a helo or a 130 gunship?

tdayof:


They never observed the helo? The gun has a limited range so my opinion, they should have noticed the helo coming in OR what do you think?

kenpaul0:
Was that a helo or a 130 gunship?

tdayof:
Can someone id the platform and weapon. Cc nemesis4u

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfSEommnneG/

It was an Apache helicopter. You can read more about USA's attacks on innocent Iraqis here.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-us-army-iraq-attack

Xbee007:

It was an Apache helicopter. You can read more about USA's attacks on innocent Iraqis here.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-us-army-iraq-attack

There's no one to sanction them.

tdayof:

There's no one to sanction them.

tdayof I have responded to your DM

tdayof:


There's no one to sanction them.

Hahaha, no sanction against the "world police" can have any significance. They have the whole world, Amnesty International and Human Right Watch by the balls eating at their their palms.

If not because of Assange's Wikileaks, the world would never have known that American soldiers killed civilians just to sauce up their profiles. Apparently, an helicopter gunner with higher kill rate will definitely earn more respect and quick promotion than that with lower kill rate.

lionel4power:


tdayof I have responded to your DM

Replied too.

BlackBaron:
@ andrewza and nemesis4u.

fair enough regarding your points.

Here's an interesting pdf about the topic. Posed the question just in the event a very precise hit is needed to avoid collateral damage especially in urban environments. Take out a dug in building,cqb or an attacking force further away with a drone above providing overview.
Regarding costs, a guidance kit (The Orbital ATK Armament Systems M1156 PGK) fitted to 155 mm shells costs about $120,000.000 for 12000 units which is about $10,000 each?

I am talking of shells similar to The American Excalibur rounds. We do not have the type unless you want to furnish us with proof.

OEMs use the term precision rather too liberally.

What the CEP in terms of range
What is the first round hit probability
What is the capability of the gun itself , does it sport INS which needs to feed into GPS/INS of guided round's. If not then accuracy effected.
What is the effect due to terrain and weather on CEP.

Lot of questions, rich countries can afford to experiment, but I would wait out for the tech to mature and the price to come down.

Orbital kits r accurate to within 50m , a upgraded gun with relevant support systems will allow u better than 50 m accuracy with normal rounds IMO.

Excalibur rounds r very expensive and need the guns to be up-to-date with INS and network centric FCS

tdayof:


You know how many shells are being fired per day in the north east? Firing millions of dollars in the war against BHT won't be a good idea since we can easily get coordinates with ISR and fire unguided shells.

Egbon... this fighting style is so 16th century
What about in a CQB where lota variables are involved and not just feeding coordinates to a dumb gun ?
What if at the time of feeding coordinates to the big guns, then the target gets on its move ?

Compromising all these clinical for cost is what makes us a third world sh*thole

Henry240:
I don't understand this leftist idea of what war is. Is it supposed to be a Tea Party?

Makes no sense to me, war is not supposed to be pretty or a soap opera, it is brutal. I understand the need to reduce collateral damage, but it simply drives the cost of prosecuting an operation.

Senior man...
Yes, war is not soap opera, but neither is it a mad man's game.

Yes We need to fight according to our bank account... this not withstanding we cannot compromise on fighting good, fighting right and fighting clean.

abiodunalasa:


Egbon... this fighting style is so 16th century
What about in a CQB where lota variables are involved and not just feeding coordinates to a dumb gun ?
What if at the time of feeding coordinates to the big guns, then the target gets on its move ?

Compromising all these clinical for cost is what makes us a third world sh*thole



Senior man...
Yes, war is not soap opera, but neither is it a mad man's game.

Yes We need to fight according to our bank account... this not withstanding we cannot compromise on fighting good, fighting right and fighting clean.

Artillery are being used on enemy position / strong hold to dismantle them here giving ground troops an easy way to get in. Even guided artillery will miss a target which would be out of positions in few minutes.

tdayof:


Artillery are being used on enemy position / strong hold to dismantle them here giving ground troops an easy way to get in. Even guided artillery will miss a target which would be out of positions in few minutes.

What if its a mobile base... Like a ship ?
Or one of those 21st century Battle Mobile Strongholds BMS ?

abiodunalasa:


What if its a mobile base... Like a ship ?
Or one of those 21st century Battle Mobile Strongholds BMS ?

Intel are being performed before launching an artillery.


If you have the position of a mobile air defence systems, do you think after lauching a cruise missile with sophisticated guidance systems, the missile will keep following the platform to wherever location it's going? Hell no. Guidance system is just for precision since you have nothing to "home" om. Or an aircraft to update coordinates into the missile / artillery.

In essence, a guided artillery will also miss a moving target except if coordinate is been updated regularly through an aircraft or whatever. Advantage of a guided artillery is precision. andrewza already mentioned it that you can fire more shells to effect accuracy from unguided arty.

tdayof:


Intel are being performed before launching an artillery.


If you have the position of a mobile air defence systems, do you think after lauching a cruise missile with sophisticated guidance systems, the missile will keep following the platform to wherever location it's going? Hell no. Guidance system is just for precision since you have nothing to "home" om. Or an aircraft to update coordinates into the missile / artillery.

In essence, a guided artillery will also miss a moving target except if coordinate is been updated regularly through an aircraft or whatever. Advantage of a guided artillery is precision. andrewza already mentioned it that you can fire more shells to effect accuracy from unguided arty.

"... Fire more shells to effect accuracy... "

Thats what they call spray and pray
Throwing 20 stones at a bird and hoping one hits it on the head.
typical third world bull shits.

Egbon stop defending our defect.

abiodunalasa:


"... Fire more shells to effect accuracy... "

Thats what they call spray and pray
Throwing 20 stones at a bird and hoping one hits it on the head.
typical third world bull shits.

Egbon stop defending our defect.

Typical Nigerian. No one here is defending the Nigerian defect. I'm simply giving out an opinion on how both unguided and guided artillery works which you've not been able to counter with a point or fact but instead slam the 3rd world Bullshit.

It's very simple. A guided artillery will not follow a moving target to where so ever it's going but exact coordinates will get hit due to the GPS / inertial /laser guidance systems being employed. An unguided arty will have a + or - .


Same as rockets. You've seen our MRLS, unguided MRLS hitting bokoharam positions effectively.


There are some guided shells for about $75,000 which we can get. We can easily add that to our inventory. No one is saying Nigeria shouldn't posses such requirements. Imagine spending $50M on 500 guided shells when we can do what we want effectively with unguided shells at cheaper price.

I'm always intrigued how easy it is for people who've never put on the uniform to pontificate on the intricacies of war-fighting.
At dinner parties I've now taken to calling myself a colonoscopic surgeon, cos nobody is going to kibitz about their arse and how best to examine it.

Frumentum:
I'm always intrigued how easy it is for people who've never put on the uniform to pontificate on the intricacies of war-fighting.
At dinner parties I've now taken to calling myself a colonoscopic surgeon, cos nobody is going to kibitz about their arse and how best to examine it.

I have been resisting the urge not to reply some comments.
Go gently on thy patients

Frumentum:
I'm always intrigued how easy it is for people who've never put on the uniform to pontificate on the intricacies of war-fighting.
At dinner parties I've now taken to calling myself a colonoscopic surgeon, cos nobody is going to kibitz about their arse and how best to examine it.

Hate to break it to you frum, but most military concepts and issues are not that complex.

It's highly technical matters such as military logistics and engineering that are beyond the pale of the layman.

GH

patches689:

Hate to break it to you frum, but most military concepts and issues are not that complex.

It's highly technical matters such as military logistics and engineering that are beyond the pale of the layman.

Of course a physically fit matriculant will breeze through basics and with training will make a decent soldier, and then even go on to arty.
Is this trooper qualified to pontificate on the technical details of artillery systems? Of course not.

I signed on with an Honours degree in Economics and International Relations and there's so much I still don't know, a year from walking away having being head-hunted by a global think-tank.

As you rightly point out, the highly technical matters should best be left to those who've studied them. My taxpayer-funded Master's in Military Science does no more than qualify me to, for example, read and understand financial statements. I wouldn't dream of pontificating on accounting modelling theories.

Yet, people who've no idea of the basics of artillery and its application pontificate too easily on the highly technical aspects that artillery men with decades of experience approach with caution and circumspection.

cc: CaptainStephen

abiodunalasa:


"... Fire more shells to effect accuracy... "

Thats what they call spray and pray
Throwing 20 stones at a bird and hoping one hits it on the head.
typical third world bull shits.

Egbon stop defending our defect.

It not 3rd world bullshit it a method used by most countries. Guided shells even in rich countries are used sparingly. Only high value targets or targets in built up area would get a guided shell. A artillery barrage is normal 6 to 8 guns destroying area withat least 3 rounds from each gun. Remember you normally won't fire a barrage on one or two people but large groups.