johnydon22:
Give moral value

What is moral value?

johnydon22:
It is hypothetical, so whether it is possible or not is inconsequential.

So, why do you think it would be immoral?

'cause the clones or whatever will still be humans.

ABCthings:
'cause the clones or whatever will still be humans.

And what is wrong in killing humans?

Hermes019:

Does this clone have a brain ?
If it does what functioning level is the brain,is it more than that of a fowl

I can think of two instances

1. Yes it does

2. No it doesn't.

What will your answer be for each instance

Martinez39:
Well, they were created to have their organs harvested and save our dying ones. We can ignore our dying ones and the purpose of creating these clones just cater for the clones. We just can't. On a second thought, I were to put myself in the shoes of these clones, I would definitely want to live :'-( but we just have to carry on with why they were created.

But you agree that what you as the clone think or feel has absolutely no binding effect on the people that made you, correct?

Hermes019:

Johnny u might want to explain the above

I do think that it is self explanatory. But let me try again; A creator can do whatever it pleases with its creations. The same moral constraints do not apply for the created and the creator.

Clear now?

johnydon22:
But you agree that what you as the clone think or feel has absolutely no binding effect on the people that made you, correct?

Yes.

Martinez39:
Yes.

Ok. Fair enough

johnydon22:


And what is wrong in killing humans?

Jesus! see question :O

Ask yourself what is wrong if I decided to finish you

Seriously what's wrong?
-It's illegal

why is it illegal?
-Morality

If I see nothing wrong in killing you I might still do it ~secretly

But if I believe something is wrong even if it legal I won't do it.

So killing humans itself is not wrong unless you faith tells you something else.

ABCthings:
Jesus! see question :O

Ask yourself what is wrong if I decided to finish you

Seriously what's wrong?
-It's illegal

why is it illegal?
-Morality

If I see nothing wrong in killing you I might still do it ~secretly

But if I believe something is wrong even if it legal I won't do it.

So killing humans itself is not wrong unless you faith tells you something else.

You didn't really answer my question. You just said it's wrong without telling me why and how?

I repeat; what makes killing humans wrong?

I need you to think deeper here.

johnydon22:


You didn't really answer my question. You just said it's wrong without telling me why and how?

I repeat; what makes killing humans wrong?

I need you to think deeper here.

And I said killing is wrong just because we believe it's wrong.

ABCthings:
And I said killing is wrong just because we believe it's wrong.

No! There's more to it than that, surely. To start with, unless the killed desires to be killed, you'd be depriving someone of something that belongs to that person. Also, if killing weren't wrong you would not mind me killing you, which I'm sure you would! I'm reckoning you'd defend yourself if I tried to kill you, and that's evidence you don't like being killed.

ABCthings:
And I said killing is wrong just because we believe it's wrong.

Killing or killing a human?

budaatum:

No! There's more to it than that, surely. To start with, unless the killed desires to be killed, you'd be depriving someone of something that belongs to that person.

That is to first assume depriving someone of what belongs to them is wrong. Lol

Also, if killing weren't wrong you would not mind me killing you, which I'm sure you would! I'm reckoning you'd defend yourself if I tried to kill you, and that's evidence you don't like being killed.

Not liking something isn't same thing as that thing being wrong, is it?

johnydon22:
That is to first assume depriving someone of what belongs to them is wrong. Lol

So, when I come to your home and clear it out and deprive you of all you've worked really hard to accumulate, you would not mind?

johnydon22:
Not liking something isn't same thing as that thing being wrong, is it?

I guess we should just put it to the test shall we? Send me your address please.

budaatum:

No! There's more to it than that, surely. To start with, unless the killed desires to be killed, you'd be depriving someone of something that belongs to that person. Also, if killing weren't wrong you would not mind me killing you, which I'm sure you would! I'm reckoning you'd defend yourself if I tried to kill you, and that's evidence you don't like being killed.

So the US killing Osama Bin Laden is wrong abi?
even if I don't want to be killed you killing me doesn't make your action wrohg.

johnydon22:
Killing or killing a human?

Both

ABCthings:
Both

So, if i kill a chicken i am as morally wrong as killing a human?

budaatum:

So, when I come to your home and clear it out and deprive you of all you've worked really hard to accumulate, you would not mind?

Me minding doesn't make anything right or wrong. I need you guys to really catch up on moral arguments i don't even know how else to explain it.

You said killing is wrong
Why?
Because it deprives someone of something that belongs to them.

Then, why is depriving someone of his stuff wrong?

This is the next question.

I guess we should just put it to the test shall we? Send me your address please.

It is a simple question Budaatum; Not liking something isn't same as right or wrong, is it?

johnydon22:


So, if i kill a chicken i am as morally wrong as killing a human?

How do I say it so you understand BELIEVES!, BELIVES!! it all about BELIEVES!!!
if i go to a place where they think chickens are demi-gods and kill a chick I'll be sure they will roast me alive.
So once again it's BELIEVES

ABCthings:
How do I say it so you understand BELIEVES!, BELIVES!! it all about BELIEVES!!!
if i go to a place where they think chickens are demi-gods and kill a chick I'll be sure they will roast me alive.
So once again it's BELIEVES

Ok, you are saying the fundamental bit of morality is the belief in a value for the subject and not the action.

E.g: the reason why someone would say killing a human is wrong is that they somehow believe human life is somewhat special (sacred if you will) and that is what makes killing it different from any other.

Same applies for people who think killing a cow or a chicken is wrong.

Right?

johnydon22:
Ok, you are saying the fundamental bit of morality is the belief in a value for the subject and not the action.

E.g: the reason why someone would say killing a human is wrong is that they somehow believe human life is somewhat special (sacred if you will) and that is what makes killing it different from any other.

Same applies for people who think killing a cow or a chicken is wrong.

Right?

Right.
So since clones are humans they should be treated as so.

johnydon22:
Me minding doesn't make anything right or wrong. I need you guys to really catch up on moral arguments i don't even know how else to explain it.

You said killing is wrong
Why?
Because it deprives someone of something that belongs to them.

Then, why is depriving someone of his stuff wrong?

This is the next question.

It is a simple question Budaatum; Not liking something isn't same as right or wrong, is it?

I presented my argument. I brought it into your home for you to decide. I used your preferences as my criteria to determine whether it's right or wrong. I've arranged with my people to visit you. All you have to do is tell me you are happy and I will agree with you. My position is that morality is in the eye of whom it affects, you, in this instance.

Where's your address please?

budaatum:

I presented my argument. I brought it into your home for you to decide. I used your preferences as my criteria to determine whether it's right or wrong. I've arranged with my people to visit you. All you have to do is tell me you are happy and I will agree with you. My position is that morality is in the eye of whom it affects, you, in this instance.
Where's your address please?

Again, i ask; if i find it wrong, why is it wrong?

You got to keep up dude. Even if i entertain this obviously peurile conceptualization of morality, it will still come back to the same moral problem. Lol

ABCthings:
Right.
So since clones are humans they should be treated as so.

Fair enough.

johnydon22:
Again, i ask; if i find it wrong, why is it wrong?

You got to keep up dude. Even if i entertain this obviously peurile conceptualization of morality, it will still come back to the same moral problem. Lol

It's wrong because you find it wrong! Just as I might find you calling my conceptualisation puerile, wrong. After all, I may be offended. But of what concern should my hurt ego be of yours?

I think the issue here might be that you might be one of those objective moralists while I'm not. I might not find an act wrong but you might. And that's perfectly okay with me especially if its an act with consequences that affect you and if my morals happen to include not ignoring how my action affects you..

Take for instance, slapping you. I may find great pleasure in the act of lifting up my arm, directing my palm towards you, and at a high velocity hitting it against your face. But I might accept the fact that you might not like being slapped. If you do however, not mind, I've met a soul mate who would enjoy being slapped by me all day long which I highly enjoy. And if you do mind, well, who cares what you think as long as I have my fun?

I'm stating how I feel about a thing, johnydon22, and what I find moral or immoral for me to do, and not establishing some moral code that everyone has to subscribe to. After all, I'm only buda, and not some god who gets to dictate to others what they must or can or can't or mustn't do.

Let me know if I may slap you please.

johnydon22:
Again, i ask; if i find it wrong, why is it wrong?

Please know that your reasons for liking or not liking me slapping you or thinking its right or wrong is irrelevant to me.

ABCthings:
So the US killing Osama Bin Laden is wrong abi?
even if I don't want to be killed you killing me doesn't make your action wrohg.

Killing anyone is wrong for me, ABC, regardless of whether the killed likes it or not. It's so wrong for me that I can't possibly kill anyone. And in my opinion, killing OBL is wrong too especially if he could have been captured (and I believe he could have), and tried for his crimes which is what I'd prefer. Thankfully, no one is asking me to pass judgement on his killers, but if I were, they'd be guilty as charged.

tartar9:
Are babies humans

Are you human?

budaatum:

It's wrong because you find it wrong! Just as I might find you calling my conceptualisation puerile, wrong. After all, I may be offended. But of what concern should my hurt ego be of yours?

I think the issue here might be that you might be one of those objective moralists while I'm not. I might not find an act wrong but you might. And that's perfectly okay with me especially if its an act with consequences that affect you and if my morals happen to include not ignoring how my action affects you..

Take for instance, slapping you. I may find great pleasure in the act of lifting up my arm, directing my palm towards you, and at a high velocity hitting it against your face. But I might accept the fact that you might not like being slapped. If you do however, not mind, I've met a soul mate who would enjoy being slapped by me all day long which I highly enjoy. And if you do mind, well, who cares what you think as long as I have my fun?

I'm stating how I feel about a thing, johnydon22, and what I find moral or immoral for me to do, and not establishing some moral code that everyone has to subscribe to. After all, I'm only buda, and not some god who gets to dictate to others what they must or can or can't or mustn't do.

Let me know if I may slap you please.

Lol. The dilemma of secular morality, moral conclusions without basis.

This thing is wrong to me
It is not wrong to mr B

Therefore it is not even wrong at all.

Something like morality cannot be personal or it's simply meaningless.

And even if it is personal, you still must have a derivative basis to it which you seem not have.

Killing is wrong
Why?
Because it is to me.

Lmao that's funny! You people are funny!

johnydon22:


Lol. The dilemma of secular morality, moral conclusions without basis.

This thing is wrong to me
It is not wrong to mr B

Therefore it is not even wrong at all.

Something like morality cannot be personal or it's simply meaningless.

And even if it is personal, you still must have a derivative basis to it which you seem not have.

Killing is wrong
Why?
Because it is to me.

Lmao that's funny! You people are funny!

Unfortunately, morality is precisely like that. Homosexuality is one to note. If you're gay in Nigeria you are going to hell while UK has a Gay Parade and neither can give a reason the other will accept.

But hey! If you think we are so puerile and funny and worthy of your condescension you are very welcome to educate us with your view and raise our morals to your lofty level please.

budaatum:

Unfortunately, morality is precisely like that.

Actually, it isn't.

Homosexuality is one to note. If you're gay in Nigeria you are going to hell while UK has a Gay Parade and neither can give a reason the other will accept.

Lmao. There are Christians in both Nigeria and Uk that believe a homosexual is going to hell. Innit?

But hey! If you think we are so puerile and funny and worthy of your condescension you are very welcome to educate us with your view and raise our morals to your lofty level please.

Oh i think your arguments on morality is peurile alright.

I have not even made 1 moral claim. I have only been asking how you reach a moral conclusion of which you seem unable to say.

Isn't that funny?

Again i ask, why is killing wrong?