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A Question For The Christians - Religion - Nairaland

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A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 7:36pm On Jul 25, 2012
I'll get straight to the point.
What is the standpoint of Christianity with regards to the afterlife fate of mentally ill people? I have searched google over and over and found nothing about it so I bring the question to you.
Do mentally ill sinners suffer the same fate as other sinners with sound mental health?
Take for instance the case of James Holmes who carried out the Colorado theatre massacre, considering the way that man has been acting and the words he was reported to have said, it is highly likely that he is suffering from a mental illness. Assuming he is found to indeed be insane; what would his fate be in the afterlife? Would he be among the sinners in hell because he committed a terrible sin like them or would he be among the Christians in heaven because he did not have a healthy mind/could not think like normal people?
Awaiting your responses.
Re: A Question For The Christians by ijawkid(m): 7:59pm On Jul 25, 2012
If he isn't sane then there's no way he going to suffer d same fate with those who are sane and still do what is bad.....
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 8:08pm On Jul 25, 2012
Ijawkid, are you saying that he is going to heaven?
Re: A Question For The Christians by Ptolomeus(m): 10:07pm On Jul 25, 2012
ijawkid: If he isn't sane then there's no way he going to suffer d same fate with those who are sane and still do what is bad.....


You are saying that a madman will go to heaven if he kills hundreds of people?
After reading it, not whether to laugh or mourn ...
This comment has been pathetic ... It's worth a pastor!
Re: A Question For The Christians by InesQor(m): 10:26pm On Jul 25, 2012
God will do what is right.

Even for sane people, I don't believe in telling people "where they will go in the afterlife", as only God can see the insides of the heart. Rather, we should encourage people (who are capable of understanding, and not insane) to live right, and we leave the rest to God.

Since I'm not the madman in question, I don't see why I need to bother about this issue.
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 10:28pm On Jul 25, 2012
Ptolemeus, please be gentle with your answers. I don't want Christians to be scared away from this thread because of harsh words. Maybe that's what prevented Ijawkid from coming back.
Christians, please I am still waiting for an answer. Thanks!
Re: A Question For The Christians by Nobody: 10:31pm On Jul 25, 2012
an insane fellow has lost consciousness hence he/she may nt be able to differentiate btw god and evil, therefore his/her may be an exception.

why do they go Unclad on the streets of lagos without being ashamed, whereas a sane person cant do such?
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 10:38pm On Jul 25, 2012
InesQor: God will do what is right.

Even for sane people, I don't believe in telling people "where they will go in the afterlife", as only God can see the insides of the heart.
Fine, you cannot definitely tell where a person will go in the next life but there should be some kind of indicator of whether you would end up in hell or heaven. Isn't there a description in the Bible about those that will go to heaven and those that will go to hell?
InesQor:
Rather, we should encourage people (who are capable of understanding, and not insane) to live right, and we leave the rest to God.
But I wasn't talking about sane people. . . .
InesQor: Since I'm not the madman in question, I don't see why I need to bother about this issue.
You don't have to be the madman to be curious about something like this, it is something worth pondering upon. Or does the Bible say nothing about something like this? Because if there is no information in the Bible about this you can also tell me that.
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 10:40pm On Jul 25, 2012
toba: an insane fellow has lost consciousness hence he/she may nt be able to differentiate btw god and evil, therefore his/her may be an exception.

why do they go Unclad on the streets of lagos without being ashamed, whereas a sane person cant do such?
So are you saying they will not be held accountable for their actions?
Re: A Question For The Christians by Ptolomeus(m): 10:46pm On Jul 25, 2012
Cogent: Ptolemeus, please be gentle with your answers. I don't want Christians to be scared away from this thread because of harsh words. Maybe that's what prevented Ijawkid from coming back.
Christians, please I am still waiting for an answer. Thanks!

I said seriously.
If a madman has won the sky at birth, then tell me what comes into the world? The Christian theory falls apart.
Ijawkid return, if not, is simply not interested in the thread, or because he realized that his defense has no answer.
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 10:50pm On Jul 25, 2012
Ptolomeus:

I said seriously.
If a madman has won the sky at birth, then tell me what comes into the world? The Christian theory falls apart.
Google translate doesn't really translate your posts.
Hope you know that.
Ptolomeus:
Ijawkid return, if not, is simply not interested in the thread, or because he realized that his defense has no answer.
This was the only part I understood.
Re: A Question For The Christians by Nobody: 10:59pm On Jul 25, 2012
Cogent:
So are you saying they will not be held accountable for their actions?
may be they would if they are conscious. A contract signed under duress or influence of alcohol(being unconscious) is voidable
Re: A Question For The Christians by InesQor(m): 11:04pm On Jul 25, 2012
@Cogent:

It's okay to see that you are curious, but all you will get from any honest contributor are vain speculations that amount to no substance. As I said, I say again, only God can know.

The Bible gives indications of some people who will most assuredly be welcome in heaven, and those who will more assuredly be in hell but there is no clear-cut one-size-fits-all description, and there is none that talks about insane people.

Going to heaven or hell are not about a set of rules that are to be followed. The criteria may differ in each person, only God really knows the reward he will give to people. Yes, heaven is a reward; and hell is also a reward.
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 11:11pm On Jul 25, 2012
InesQor: @Cogent:
The Bible gives indications of some people who will most assuredly be welcome in heaven, and those who will more assuredly be in hell but there is no clear-cut one-size-fits-all description, and there is none that talks about insane people.
Thanks. Can you tell me what is said about those that would most assuredly be in heaven and hell?
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 11:14pm On Jul 25, 2012
toba: may be they would if they are conscious. A contract signed under duress or influence of alcohol(being unconscious) is voidable
Ok. So they will not be held accountable is what you're saying.
Can you tell me why those that commit suicide are condemned to hell?
Re: A Question For The Christians by Nobody: 11:21pm On Jul 25, 2012
Cogent:
Ok. So they will not be held accountable is what you're saying.
Can you tell me why those that commit suicide are condemned to hell?
first ques= probably based on my thinking


2nd part if anyone breaks a rule and it can be proven he deliberately did so in a very cognitive state, he'll receive appropriate punishment
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 11:33pm On Jul 25, 2012
toba: first ques= probably based on my thinking


2nd part if anyone breaks a rule and it can be proven he deliberately did so in a very cognitive state, he'll receive appropriate punishment
I don't think those that commit suicide are in a 'cognitive state'. I mean, if a person decides to kill herself/himself because they are facing problems instead of looking for how to solve those problems you cannot exactly say that there is nothing wrong with their thinking faculties.
Just mentioning it because Christians tend to be quick to condemn those that commit suicide to hell.
Re: A Question For The Christians by InesQor(m): 11:38pm On Jul 25, 2012
Cogent:
Thanks. Can you tell me what is said about those that would most assuredly be in heaven and hell?

They who do the will of the Father in Heaven will enter Heaven
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven

What then is the will of the Father?
The will of the Father has a general aspect as well as a specific aspect.

God's specific will/plans for each person differs, but together our experiences complement one another. This is where one size cannot fit all, only God is the trader who knows what he has put in each heart and what he is getting as a return: profit or loss.

When a man is insane, God knows how he became insane and HOW insane he really is; what kinds of distinctions he can still make.

(Amplified)
Rom 2:6 For He will render to every man according to his works [justly, as his deeds deserve]: [Ps. 62:12.]
Rom 2:7 To those who by patient persistence in well-doing [springing from piety] seek [unseen but sure] glory and honor and [the eternal blessedness of] immortality, He will give eternal life.
Rom 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath
.

Also,

(The Message)
2Th 1:5 All this trouble is a clear sign that God has decided to make you fit for the kingdom. You're suffering now,
2Th 1:6 but justice is on the way. When the Master Jesus appears out of heaven in a blaze of fire with his strong angels, he'll even up the score by settling accounts with those who gave you such a bad time.
2Th 1:7 His coming will be the break we've been waiting for.
2Th 1:8 Those who refuse to know God and refuse to obey the Message will pay for what they've done.
2Th 1:9 Eternal exile from the presence of the Master and his splendid power is their sentence.
2Th 1:10 But on that very same day when he comes, he will be exalted by his followers and celebrated by all who believe--and all because you believed what we told you.
2Th 1:11 Because we know that this extraordinary day is just ahead, we pray for you all the time--pray that our God will make you fit for what he's called you to be, pray that he'll fill your good ideas and acts of faith with his own energy so that it all amounts to something.

Can an insane man be said to [b]refuse [/b]to obey God, or to [b]refuse [/b]to know God?

There are actually various depths of insanity. So, some may and some may not. This is why I said this discussion is at best, merely speculative.
Re: A Question For The Christians by InesQor(m): 11:48pm On Jul 25, 2012
For the sake of those who do not appreciate The Message translation of the Bible, here is 2 Thess 1:8 in the Amplified:

2Th 1:8 To deal out retribution (chastisement and vengeance) upon those who do not know or perceive or become acquainted with God, and [upon those] who ignore and refuse to obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Re: A Question For The Christians by ijawkid(m): 12:02am On Jul 26, 2012
Ptolomeus:

You are saying that a madman will go to heaven if he kills hundreds of people?
After reading it, not whether to laugh or mourn ...
This comment has been pathetic ... It's worth a pastor!

1st of all d notion that all persons who are deemed fit for everlasting life will go to heaven is wrong...

2ndly if the man while committing that act wasn't sane why would a God of mercy and compassion not pardon his errors??

God will even forgive d sins of a sane person,who got involved in killings but repented later..rÉad
Ezekiel 18:21..
Why wuld he lower his attribute of mercy when it then comes to an insane person?

Do u guys take God to be an irrational being??
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 12:16am On Jul 26, 2012
InesQor:

They who do the will of the Father in Heaven will enter Heaven
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven

What then is the will of the Father?
The will of the Father has a general aspect as well as a specific aspect.

God's specific will/plans for each person differs, but together our experiences complement one another. This is where one size cannot fit all, only God is the trader who knows what he has put in each heart and what he is getting as a return: profit or loss.
Firstly, thank you for quoting New Testament verses. I would have disregarded your verses if they had been from the Old Testament.
Ok, so the part about God's will being different for each of us means that the requirements for each and everyone of us would be different right? Because everyone has different capabilities, mental/intellectual, physical etc. So what is expected from me to make heaven would be different from what is expected from another person/different person, with different thought processes and life experiences?
InesQor:
When a man is insane, God knows how he became insane and HOW insane he really is; what kinds of distinctions he can still make.
Really? So insane people will actually be held accountable for their actions?
InesQor:
Can an insane man be said to refuse [/b]to obey God, or to [b]refuse [/b]to know God?
Not quite. So what you wrote about considering what other distinction they can make doesn't hold water. If he is unable to know God or unable to obey Him due to insanity then there is no point in considering what other distinctions he can make with regards to religion.
InesQor:

There are actually various depths of insanity. So, some may and some may not. This is why I said [b]this discussion is at best, merely speculative.
I agree.
Re: A Question For The Christians by ijawkid(m): 12:21am On Jul 26, 2012
Ptolomeus:

I said seriously.
If a madman has won the sky at birth, then tell me what comes into the world? The Christian theory falls apart.
Ijawkid return, if not, is simply not interested in the thread, or because he realized that his defense has no answer.

Hey fellas I'm back..I didn't run away,..
I only had to go solve somÉ engineering maths... grin

Like I said and like toba has said...

A madman is unconscious of his actions,except the individual pretends to be mad to carry out wicked acts...

We'v got mad persons running all around d streets of 9ja Unclad and eating from the dustbin...

They knw nothing...

God will definitly not hold them accountable for there actions...

Its easy as that....

But if another individual will carry out those same atrocities under d influence of cocaine,marijuana and alcohol then that persÓn will pay for his or her sÍn...

PleÀse I'll like u to read ezekiel 18:21 $ 24...
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 12:26am On Jul 26, 2012
ijawkid:
if the man while committing that act wasn't sane why would a God of mercy and compassion not pardon his errors??

God will even forgive d sins of a sane person,who got involved in killings but repented later..rÉad
Ezekiel 18:21..
Why wuld he lower his attribute of mercy when it then comes to an insane person?

Do u guys take God to be an irrational being??
Dude relax, I never said I took God to be irrational.
The only reference to your Bible you posted to back up your claim came from the Old Testament that was supposed to have passed away with the coming of Christ. It also fails to say anything about the fate of insane people which is what the topic is supposed to be about.
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 12:38am On Jul 26, 2012
ijawkid:

Hey fellas I'm back..I didn't run away,..
I only had to go solve somÉ engineering maths... grin
Nice. Hope you enjoyed yourself. I also love solving some Stroud Mathematics in my free time.
ijawkid:
Like I said and like toba has said...

A madman is unconscious of his actions,except the individual pretends to be mad to carry out wicked acts...

We'v got mad persons running all around d streets of 9ja Unclad and eating from the dustbin...

They knw nothing...

God will definitly not hold them accountable for there actions...

Its easy as that....

But if another individual will carry out those same atrocities under d influence of cocaine,marijuana and alcohol then that persÓn will pay for his or her sÍn...

PleÀse I'll like u to read
Again. No Bible verse to back your speech up. Just say you're guessing man, don't make it seem like you're 100% sure of what you think would happen.
Those who are not considered clinically insane still suffer temporary fits of madness. Even depressed people are considered to have a mental illness. Are you saying people won't be punished for what wrong they did when they were depressed?
Re: A Question For The Christians by ijawkid(m): 12:49am On Jul 26, 2012
Cogent:
Dude relax, I never said I took God to be irrational.
The only reference to your Bible you posted to back up your claim came from the Old Testament that was supposed to have passed away with the coming of Christ. It also fails to say anything about the fate of insane people which is what the topic is supposed to be about.

Ok let me ask u this lil question..

In what class wuld u place a mad insane person??


Conscious or unconscious??
Re: A Question For The Christians by ijawkid(m): 12:53am On Jul 26, 2012
Cogent:
Nice. Hope you enjoyed yourself. I also love solving some Stroud Mathematics in my free time.

Again. No Bible verse to back your speech up. Just say you're guessing man, don't make it seem like you're 100% sure of what you think would happen.
Those who are not considered clinically insane still suffer temporary fits of madness. Even depressed people are considered to have a mental illness. Are you saying people won't be punished for what wrong they did when they were depressed?

Is a depressed ¶erson a mentally deranged person??

Wuld u say d boy that carried out d killin @ the cinema was depressed??

Can a depressed person walk around Unclad on d road??(The nigerian scenario)

We knw what depression can cause....

A depressed person can still distinguish between what is right and wrong...



In this scenario we are talking about persons who have gone loko....

1 who isn't aware of his surronding....

1 who is mad in d head....

Depression is not equals to madness....

Not @ all bro..

Any.1 who says he's depressed and so he/she had to blow up people or shoot sporadically @ people needs to be locked up in jail for all eternity and be ready to face Gods wrath too...

Are we nt all depressed 1 way or the other??

Why aint we going about shooting people...
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 1:15am On Jul 26, 2012
ijawkid:

Ok let me ask u this lil question..

In what class wuld u place a mad insane person??

Conscious or unconscious??
What the fvck does a 'mad insane' person mean?
Ok.
Unconscious. :/


ijawkid:
Is a depressed ¶erson a mentally deranged person??

Wuld u say d boy that carried out d killin @ the cinema was depressed??
It is very possible that James Holmes suffered from depression.
There is something called manic depression.
ijawkid:
Can a depressed person walk around Unclad on d road??(The nigerian scenario)

We knw what depression can cause....

A depressed person can still distinguish between what is right and wrong...
Ijawkid, I don't think you know what depression means. . . . . .

ijawkid:
In this scenario we are talking about persons who have gone loko....

1 who isn't aware of his surronding....

1 who is mad in d head....

Depression is not equals to madness....

Not @ all bro..

Any.1 who says he's depressed and so he/she had to blow up people or shoot sporadically @ people needs to be locked up in jail for all eternity and be ready to face Gods wrath too...

Are we nt all depressed 1 way or the other??

Why aint we going about shooting people...

Please next time read extensively on depression before you attempt to list the things depressed people can or cannot do.
Re: A Question For The Christians by ijawkid(m): 5:04am On Jul 26, 2012
Cogent:
What the fvck does a 'mad insane' person mean?
Ok.
Unconscious. :/



It is very possible that James Holmes suffered from depression.
There is something called manic depression.

Ijawkid, I don't think you know what depression means. . . . . .



Please next time read extensively on depression before you attempt to list the things depressed people can or cannot do.

Hmmmm..

As usual when they commit crimes they blame it on depression....

What's makin them depressed??

Infact who knows wether dat holmes of a nigga wasn't even depressed or mad after all.....

Mayb all he had been watchn on tv and playing on video games is what he just wanted actualize......

Too much enjoyment and comfortability is what mayb made him depressed.....

If it is depression my bro he going to answer to God.....

Like I said almost all of us are depressed in 1 way or the other bt still we keep our cool and life goes on......

Why wuld a phd holder be depressed??
Give me some reasons.........

Too much enjoyment made the man depressed and then he went into a crowd and shot people....
Re: A Question For The Christians by ijawkid(m): 5:08am On Jul 26, 2012
And please update me on what d doctors have to say about his mental state.....what caused it...and let's find out if he was depressed(as u say) or just a silly kid wanting to practice what he watches on tv........

Or mayb he's been suffering from chronic mental illness unchecked for a long time........

Oh thanks for saying mad people are uÑconscious persons......
Re: A Question For The Christians by Nobody: 7:24am On Jul 26, 2012
Cogent:
I don't think those that commit suicide are in a 'cognitive state'. I mean, if a person decides to kill herself/himself because they are facing problems instead of looking for how to solve those problems you cannot exactly say that there is nothing wrong with their thinking faculties.
Just mentioning it because Christians tend to be quick to condemn those that commit suicide to hell.
ignorance is not an excuse. IF i resigned my appointment cos im having issues with my boss or cos a misunderstanding at work, then i should take responsibility for being overzealous. A case of an insane person is different from that of a frustrated fellow
Re: A Question For The Christians by Cogent(m): 12:39pm On Jul 26, 2012
ijawkid: And please update me on what d doctors have to say about his mental state.....what caused it...and let's find out if he was depressed(as u say) or just a silly kid wanting to practice what he watches on tv........
I didn't say he was depressed. I said it is possible he suffered from it. And please avail yourself of the internet to know updates about the case. Sorry, but I can't come back to do that.
toba: ignorance is not an excuse. IF i resigned my appointment cos im having issues with my boss or cos a misunderstanding at work, then i should take responsibility for being overzealous. A case of an insane person is different from that of a frustrated fellow
Re: A Question For The Christians by ijawkid(m): 12:52pm On Jul 26, 2012
Cogent:
I didn't say he was depressed. I said it is possible he suffered from it. And please avail yourself of the internet to know updates about the case. Sorry, but I can't come back to do that.


So we are back to d same place..

Which is the guy suffering from that wuld make him go kill people...??

Depression,madness or what??

I don't know if u answered my question I asked earlier...

Is depression = madness??

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