vedaxcool:

God can not die for any reason, whether out love or out mans' owm cruelty, it is not just possible, because God is the Wise, his wisdom supersedes any logic we can espouse, a mother dying for her child could primary be due to lack of choice, God can never fall into lack of choice category, it could be due to lack of power etc. God can never fall into lack of power category, . . . we can sit here and devise simulated events and because of His attributes, He would always nullify any possible reason to die for anybody, . . . God's wisdom will always provide a solution which he can enforce and due to this fact, He can NEVER die for any human what so ever because He always have a solution to whatever problem that exist, is it life or death, a cure? And the fact that you conceive LOVE to mean one MUST die again shows the flawed thinking that you want us to believe, The fact that God didn't not put cruelty/lack of compassion between you and your mother or a husband and wife, is enough reason to conclude that His love is supreme, again God is nobody's mother or father, God is Your Creator, until you acknowledge that fact, you would sustain one bluderous question after another! and your question is entirely vague, by you asking would God die for some would you mean if a car was about running over you he would jump in front to get run over by the car in other to save you? so contextualise whatever point you are trying to make if not we would end up going divergently on this issue! God attributes remains the logic behind why he would NEVER die for anybody!


Got me thinking:

Woman your son has been sentenced to death for murder, .. ., My son? please let me die for him, and he be let free so that he would change his ways,. . . Judge, I can't allow that, because it would be unjust, . . .woman plsss!!! let me die for him . . . Judge why? . . . Woman because I love my son die!!, I AM Selfless . . . Judge really? . . . Woman, yes? let me take his place! . . .Judge, It goes against common sense and logic for you to die for a murderer who, have started as a petty liar and then graduated to the level of Murderer, despite on numerous forgiving of this boy, common sense and the wisdom of the law means that we will have to put him to death so that the society can be spared his endless wickedness . . . Woman I assure you if I die for him, he would change his ways for the good! . . . Judge, are you sure? what if he kills another person who would die for him then? . . . woman, I am sure he would cease to do so further! . . . Ok, then put her death! . . .the woman was killed . . . and that very day son killed another person apparrently the police man who got him arrested for the crime . . . Judge! what say ye, was you your decision just. . .

Mr. annony, we ask would you say the woman displayed perfect love? or would say she is selfless? or would you say she was being extremely silly and unreasonable? Was the judge fair to put to death an innocent woman for the crimes of her son who has bee forgiven so many times for all sort of crimes?

If your answer is no, then we can say God as no reason to die for any man, who was given the freedom to make decisions for his ownself and decides to squander such decision, but if you mean You expect God to jump in front of truck to save you or anybody, then I say God wisdom would rather save you using his unquantifiable power than jump in front of truck, if you mean . . . so many solutions because Allah is great and has all the solutions for any concievable problem, all powers belong to him, Allah is the lord of the universe and everything that exist!

Epic comment, Vedaxcool! God can not die, if he exists!


However, there is no evidence for God

tbaba1234:

If you ask questions with a will to learn then by all means... The information you require has already been provided... Cut to the chase... Present your case...
It doesn't take much to show the lack of logic in it. Then the thread can die a natural death.

The topic of the thread is an investigation and not an argument. I am not obliged to state a case, I am only trying to make sense of your definition of God. Hopefully, I will eventually talk about who I know God to be though.

Muslims do not only believe that God is just good and omnipotent. Muslims believe that part of God’s names and attributes include ‘the Just’, ‘the Severe in Punishment’, ‘the Wise’, ‘the Avenger’, and ‘the Compassionate’, amongst many others. We do not reduce God to parts, rather God is seen as one and unique in context of all his names and attributes. So if God was just good and omnipotent, then there may be problem in reconciling suffering and evil in the world.

Also, in Islamic theology ‘good’ as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature. Therefore the underlying assumption that evil and a good God cannot coexist may be true with a Christian view of God, that is why many christians find it difficult to reconcile evil in the world.

Since that has cleared up, Allah has free will, He grants his mercy to whom he wills...He punishes who he wills... No one will make paradise without his mercy, not even the prophets (Peace be on them all)and that includes Jesus (Peace be upon him).... Every one enters only as a mercy from Allah but they must have done their best and put in the effort... Allah blot out all of their shortcomings and admits them into his paradise, the wiping off of their sins is the mercy... The attribute of mercy is exhibited here (no need for blood sacrifices)....No one's good deeds alone will grant them paradise, No one... Anyone who thinks his good deeds alone will give him paradise has displayed arrogance and no one with arrogance in their heart will enter paradise.

You know what, I agree with the attributes you ascribe to God as true and not in parts. I believe that God is good and omnipotent and it doesn't give me a problem when it comes to looking at evil in the world. As a christian, I am not confused in any way In fact it is because I know that God is good that I can confidently say that evil is not of God.
When you say that "[good] as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature." are you saying that we cannot really know what is good or evil and therefore good and evil can coexist as unopposed to each other? If this is what you mean, how can you be sure if you are doing the will of Allah or if you are going contrary to his will? I think I need a lot of clarification on that issue. It hasn't been cleared up at all.
I think what you have made clear to me is that to inherit paradise, one must rely on Allah's mercy however what remains unclear is this; If Allah grants mercy because someone has "tried their best", then it is not mercy but earned wages don't you agree?

Justice in the hereafter

Humans are imperfect, to say a human is evil just because of his shortcomings is ludicrous. Allah created us this way and it does not indicate inherent evil. Those that are inherently evil will face the justise. Those who strived but had shortcomings would have their sin wiped out... True justice is recognising those mitigating circumstances. True Justice is based on the following conditions in the hereafter...

For fairness, four conditions must be satisfied,

i. The human must be aware of the gravity of his action to some extent.

ii. The human held accountable must be from their own choices.

iii. The humans agree to undertake the trial of fulfilling their purpose (this is not a necessary condition though)

iv. Mitigating circumstances should be taken into consideration. Like Allah says:

God does not burden any soul with more than it can bear: each gains whatever good it has done, and suffers its bad–‘ (Surah 2:286)

Lets address the issues one by one:

i. The human must be aware of the gravity of his action to some extent.

Allah says in the Quran:

“… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15]

‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’

A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of disbelief. If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection.

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly.

ii. We are held accountable for our choices:

Humans have the choice to do good or evil, Now, if we were compelled to do one or the other, that will be unfair...

iii. The humans agree to undertake the trial of fulfilling their purpose.

In the Quran, Mankind's ruh (usually translated as souls) had accepted the responsibility to fulfill his purpose before he was put on the earth.

We offered the Trust [Of reason and moral responsibility] to the heavens, the earth, and the mountains, yet they refused to undertake it and were afraid of it; mankind undertook it– they have always been inept and foolish. God will punish the hypocrites and the idolaters, both men and women, and turn with mercy to the believers, both men and women: God is most forgiving, most merciful. (Surah 33 72-73)

[Prophet], when your Lord took out the offspring from the loins of the Children of Adam and made them bear witness about themselves, He said, ‘Am I not your Lord?’ and they replied, ‘Yes, we bear witness.’ So you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, ‘We were not aware of this,’ or, ‘It was our forefathers who, before us, ascribed partners to God, and we are only the descendants who came after them: will you destroy us because of falsehoods they invented?’ In this way We explain the messages, so that they may turn [to the right path]. (Surah 7: 172-174)

We have an innate disposition to God (Called the fitrah in Islam), that is why humans throughout history have almost always worshipped God or some kind of diety.

So mankind accepted the trust and therefore accepted the responsibility that came with it. Bliss in the case of obedience, Punishment in the case of disobedience.

iv. Mitigating circumstances:

What if your environment and human nature causes us to slip not in an act of wilful disobedience? Allah shows his mercy:

Whoever has done a good deed will have it ten times to his credit, but whoever has done a bad deed will be repaid only with its equivalent– they will not be wronged. (Surah 6:160)

So every good deed we do is multiplied by 10 and our evil actions only get 1, according to the deed.

We are also told in the traditions that God would show 99 times more mercy to us on the day of resurrection that has ever existed in this world... Think of all the mercy that has existed in our world; in human and animal life... Allah would reward us according to the best of our deeds

Surah 29
7. Those who believe and work righteous deeds,- from them shall We blot out all evil [that may be] in them, and We shall reward them according to the best of their deeds

To think that believing in a unjust blood sacrifice is your salvation and balances the scales of Justice makes no sense.... The Justice of Islam is so beautiful and well rounded..

Life is a test for us Humans and only those that are strive in the way of Allah and receive His mercy will make paradise... Every single act we do is recorded.....

I agree with your conditions for fairness and justice but then from what I see, Allah's mercy seems to be at loggerheads with his justice.
According to Surah 29 that you quoted; "reward according to the best of their deeds" This is not mercy but can be classified as justice because it is your deeds that determines your reward. If Allah is merciful, then he must have to be able to overlook the worst of deeds hence the worst sinners should make it to paradise. The problem now arises if he shows this mercy to some and denies others then he wouldn't be fair.
You can't have it both ways. It is either one relies totally on Allah's justice or totally on his mercy or the two must be reconciled somehow. Allah can be either just or merciful but not both. If you say God is both just and merciful, then you must give a satisfactory explanation why this is so.

You brought about 'selfless love' again... Where did get that from? .... Refer to the attributes by vedaxcool...

I thought Allah is meant to be loving. Not so? How can anyone really love without a degree of altruism (selflessness)

No. You are bringing "circle triangles' again... The omnipotent giving up his power or appearing powerless means He is no longer omnipotent, .... It is as simple as that....So God being able to “give up his power or to appear powerless” actually describes an affair that is impossible and meaningless.... Such statements describe nothing at all and have no informative value, they are meaningless. So why should we even answer a question that has no meaning? To put it bluntly the question is not even a question.

Notice the wording I used "appearing to be powerless" does not mean that one is powerless. For instance, I have the power to beat up a 3 year old kid. if I allow the kid to insult me and even if I allow the kid to beat me up, I am just being lenient. It doesn't mean I can't beat him up if I want to.
This is even evident in God's nature everyday; People blaspheme all the time but God is not going about striking them all dead with thunderbolts. It doesn't mean that God has lost His power.

Allah is in full control of all things all the time every time, not a leaf falls from a tree without His knowledege. That is omnipotence.

If you say Allah is in full control of all things i.e. He knows all things. Are you saying that he is also the one causing all things to happen? Because if that's what you are saying, then free choice is inconsequential since Allah causes man to choose what he (Allah) wants therefore it is really Allah doing everything. Why then does Allah judge man for actions he didn't do on purpose? This would contradict nos. 2 and 4 of your conditions for fairness. Or wouldn't it?

Go to your point... So far, with all due repect, you are building a very poor case... Blood sacrifice or Trinity. Not even your scholars can explain trinity... It would interesting to see what you come up with... Please do not bring an egg analogy or water analogy because they do not fit into your concept. They are probably some of the poorest attempts at explaining the absurdity.

You are assuming that I am building a case, I have done no such thing. I am only asking questions as I think it is best to properly define your position then based on that we can proceed to judge another man's knowledge.
When you talk about christian scholars not being able to explain trinity, perhaps it is because it is a unique attribute of God that allows is in sync with God's other attributes and gives God coherence.
Perhaps I should remind you that you haven't been able to explain the true nature of God yourself and how his attributes make sense of each other.

I think this is my last post on this thread, Unless you bring something interesting...

If you truly want to learn about Islam, read the translation of the Quran...

http://asadullahali.files./2010/09/the_quran.pdf

When you read the Quran, we can have a more useful discussion...

Enjoy your day...
Safe.

Thanks for discussing with me so far, hopefully you'll join in again when we start discussing the nature of God from a christian perspective (I hope we get to that point)

I am most blessed to have access to such a thread as this. I hope that our Muslim friends do not take offence but will go on to help us come to terms on who God is with respect to us His creatures.

Grace to you, my brother, Mr Anony.

^

You know what, I agree with the attributes you ascribe to God as true and not in parts. I believe that God is good and omnipotent and it doesn't give me a problem when it comes to looking at evil in the world. As a christian, I am not confused in any way In fact it is because I know that God is good that I can confidently say that evil is not of God.
When you say that "[good] as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature." are you saying that we cannot really know what is good or evil and therefore good and evil can coexist as unopposed to each other? If this is what you mean, how can you be sure if you are doing the will of Allah or if you are going contrary to his will? I think I need a lot of clarification on that issue. It hasn't been cleared up at all.
I think what you have made clear to me is that to inherit paradise, one must rely on Allah's mercy however what remains unclear is this; If Allah grants mercy because someone has "tried their best", then it is not mercy but earned wages don't you agree?

Note what i said: Good as an attribute of God

Note what you said: we cannot really know what is good or evil

Does it look like the same to you, stop reading upside down....

You have to work ; It is called mercy because you will never work hard enough to earn it, The value of Allah's mercy to your good deeds are not comparable, That is the point, The fact that human nature is taken into consideration is part of the Justice of Allah......... It is not your best that gets you paradise, It is the mercy...

I agree with your conditions for fairness and justice but then from what I see, Allah's mercy seems to be at loggerheads with his justice.
According to Surah 29 that you quoted; "reward according to the best of their deeds" This is not mercy but can be classified as justice because it is your deeds that determines your reward. If Allah is merciful, then he must have to be able to overlook the worst of deeds hence the worst sinners should make it to paradise. The problem now arises if he shows this mercy to some and denies others then he wouldn't be fair.
You can't have it both ways. It is either one relies totally on Allah's justice or totally on his mercy or the two must be reconciled somehow. Allah can be either just or merciful but not both. If you say God is both just and merciful, then you must give a satisfactory explanation why this is so.

There are in perfect correlation... The mitigating circumstances are taken into consideration.... .... Mercy is granted (gifted) to the ones who did good works and were not defiantly disobedient... With all four conditions satisfied... One who gets the message, made the right choices, followed his disposition to God will have his justice tempered with mercy because of his mitigating circumstances.....

On the other hand- One who has failed in his purpose in the first place can not get that consideration...

It is totally just and it make perfect sense...

What will be unjust is to create man as imperfect creatures and expect absolute perfection and not grant him mercy..

The fact that mercy is granted is a show of Justice in itself.

Notice the wording I used "appearing to be powerless" does not mean that one is powerless. For instance, I have the power to beat up a 3 year old kid. if I allow the kid to insult me and even if I allow the kid to beat me up, I am just being lenient. It doesn't mean I can't beat him up if I want to.
This is even evident in God's nature everyday; People blaspheme all the time but God is not going about striking them all dead with thunderbolts. It doesn't mean that God has lost His power.

This makes no sense... Even the person insulting God is under the power of God at that very time.... All his functions are running.... Omnipotence is the ability to actualise an affair and the impossibility of failure ... So someone insulting God is a poor, poor example.. That ha nothing to do with God's Omnipotence... God has free will, his not striking anyone with thunderbolts is because his will was not to do so... It still demonstrates his Omnipotence...



Poor poor case so far...

Ihedinobi: I am most blessed to have access to such a thread as this. I hope that our Muslim friends do not take offence but will go on to help us come to terms on who God is with respect to us His creatures.

Grace to you, my brother, Mr Anony.

Your brother is doing pretty poorly so far...

First of all, I must say that I love this reply! It is arguably the best I've recieved in this thread. Now please let us examine it together shall we....

vedaxcool:

God can not die for any reason, whether out love or out mans' owm cruelty, it is not just possible, because God is the Wise, his wisdom supersedes any logic we can espouse, a mother dying for her child could primary be due to lack of choice, God can never fall into lack of choice category, it could be due to lack of power etc. God can never fall into lack of power category, . . . we can sit here and devise simulated events and because of His attributes, He would always nullify any possible reason to die for anybody, . . . God's wisdom will always provide a solution which he can enforce and due to this fact, He can NEVER die for any human what so ever because He always have a solution to whatever problem that exist, is it life or death, a cure? And the fact that you conceive LOVE to mean one MUST die again shows the flawed thinking that you want us to believe, The fact that God didn't not put cruelty/lack of compassion between you and your mother or a husband and wife, is enough reason to conclude that His love is supreme, again God is nobody's mother or father, God is Your Creator, until you acknowledge that fact, you would sustain one bluderous question after another! and your question is entirely vague, by you asking would God die for some would you mean if a car was about running over you he would jump in front to get run over by the car in other to save you? so contextualise whatever point you are trying to make if not we would end up going divergently on this issue! God attributes remains the logic behind why he would NEVER die for anybody!

Now GOD CANNOT DIE(by death I mean that God cannot cease to exist), but can God take the form a human being if He want's to? My answer is yes! For an all-powerful being that is an easy task. If you disagree, perhaps you may want to explain why an all-powerful being cannot take whichever form it chooses.

Secondly, since God is infinitely wise, and His wisdom surpasses ours: What if the solution God chooses is to take the form of a man, will it stop Him from being God?

Thirdly I asked a hypothetical question but everyone seems to be trying to avoid it. I have never said that a person must die to show love, All I have said is that there is no way you can define God's kindness as love if it costs Him nothing. Now our problem: Since God has everything, how can we determine cost? Well our aim is not to determine cost but to determine love so we say assuming God didn't own everything but owned some things, will He still be benevolent and how benevolent can he be?
I am not even assuming that God is some kind of parent. All I am asking is if God is capable of more love than humans possess. If He is, the answer to that question should be an easy yes.

Got me thinking:

Woman your son has been sentenced to death for murder, .. ., My son? please let me die for him, and he be let free so that he would change his ways,. . . Judge, I can't allow that, because it would be unjust, . . .woman plsss!!! let me die for him . . . Judge why? . . . Woman because I love my son die!!, I AM Selfless . . . Judge really? . . . Woman, yes? let me take his place! . . .Judge, It goes against common sense and logic for you to die for a murderer who, have started as a petty liar and then graduated to the level of Murderer, despite on numerous forgiving of this boy, common sense and the wisdom of the law means that we will have to put him to death so that the society can be spared his endless wickedness . . . Woman I assure you if I die for him, he would change his ways for the good! . . . Judge, are you sure? what if he kills another person who would die for him then? . . . woman, I am sure he would cease to do so further! . . . Ok, then put her death! . . .the woman was killed . . . and that very day son killed another person apparrently the police man who got him arrested for the crime . . . Judge! what say ye, was you your decision just. . .

Mr. annony, we ask would you say the woman displayed perfect love? or would say she is selfless? or would you say she was being extremely silly and unreasonable? Was the judge fair to put to death an innocent woman for the crimes of her son who has bee forgiven so many times for all sort of crimes?

If your answer is no, then we can say God as no reason to die for any man, who was given the freedom to make decisions for his ownself and decides to squander such decision, but if you mean You expect God to jump in front of truck to save you or anybody, then I say God wisdom would rather save you using his unquantifiable power than jump in front of truck, if you mean . . . so many solutions because Allah is great and has all the solutions for any concievable problem, all powers belong to him, Allah is the lord of the universe and everything that exist!

I'll answer your bolded questions:

Mr. annony, we ask would you say the woman displayed perfect love? or would say she is selfless? or would you say she was being extremely silly and unreasonable?

Yes because she gave up her life for her son. One characteristic of love that I know is that it makes us do silly things. If you have ever loved, you will know what I mean.

Was the judge fair to put to death an innocent woman for the crimes of her son who has bee forgiven so many times for all sort of crimes?

Yes the judge was fair because the crime has been punished and the woman voluntarily chose to pay for the crime.
It is just like if you vouch for somebody when he goes to borrow money, It is perfectly fair and just that you pay his debts in the situation that the person cannot pay.


The last part of your answer assumes I would say say no, so it doesn't really apply to me however, It leads to my question: Assuming -just for explanatory purposes- that God wasn't omnipotent, would He jump in front of a truck for me? Is that consistent with His behaviour?
You know what else I have also realized, even with God as He is all powerful, He can [/b]still jump in front of a truck for me if He [b]chooses to. Wouldn't saying that God cannot do it be limiting His wisdom and choices?

A short story on Justice and Mercy.

Father -Son, will u not listen to me when I tell you to do good and behave yourself in the way I have raised you!

Son I dad I have listened and would act likewise.


Father - son why did you again disobey me? After all I have done for you, I provided you food 3 times a day, clothed you, bought you comfort, . . . Yet this seems not to be enough for you, you stole from me, disrespected me, lied to me, . . . Do you think that I would continue to induldge you in this folly? Before I proceed I want to ask one last time, why did you disobey me, again . . .,

Son - dad, I did what did because I can do what I like, it was my choice and I made my chioce . . . I mean don't you see Tj's parents, they love him selflessly and his mum died for his crime, such perfect love, ( son begins to sob), is nowhere, it is perfect love, and u have never showed me such love, yes I did what I did because it was my chioce, I ask u father where is love in your heart do you know love must be selfless? Have you ever showed me such love since the day u bore me?

Father - surely ur utter a great falsehood and Allah bears witness I have thought u the ways of Islam and did within my limit show you love that would not require your mother dying for your crime, again surely ur statement makes no sense and you are yet to come to terms with what u have done for this, I say depart from my house, now u are a man capable of making choices, u are 20, go earn a living by your own self, leave my house.

Son - I shall walk tall in this society we live!

Son walks out!

A week later father goes to filling station, on buying petrol a man approach him and say sir pls help me, I have to feed . . . Father turns back and sees his son,

Father - son, what have you done to yourself?

Son - father, I have learnt my lesson, pls take me back . . . I will be at my best

Father - I will show u mercy again . . .

The above is just an illustration of what mercy and justice from the frailty of humans, if humans whose knowledge is limited still act to a certain extent in a just and merciful manner, then how would anybody think that being just and merciful would be difficult for Allah, who we know to be all knowing, the Seeing, the knowledgeable . . . Who knows all that is in our heart and takes congnisance of every detail before his decision! Justice and Mercy is very easy for Allah! Allah is just and merciful, his attributes says it all!

vedaxcool: A short story on Justice and Mercy.

Father -Son, will u not listen to me when I tell you to do good and behave yourself in the way I have raised you!

Son I dad I have listened and would act likewise.


Father - son why did you again disobey me? After all I have done for you, I provided you food 3 times a day, clothed you, bought you comfort, . . . Yet this seems not to be enough for you, you stole from me, disrespected me, lied to me, . . . Do you think that I would continue to induldge you in this folly? Before I proceed I want to ask one last time, why did you disobey me, again . . .,

Son - dad, I did what did because I can do what I like, it was my choice and I made my chioce . . . I mean don't you see Tj's parents, they love him selflessly and his mum died for his crime, such perfect love, ( son begins to sob), is nowhere, it is perfect love, and u have never showed me such love, yes I did what I did because it was my chioce, I ask u father where is love in your heart do you know love must be selfless? Have you ever showed me such love since the day u bore me?

Father - surely ur utter a great falsehood and Allah bears witness I have thought u the ways of Islam and did within my limit show you love that would not require your mother dying for your crime, again surely ur statement makes no sense and you are yet to come to terms with what u have done for this, I say depart from my house, now u are a man capable of making choices, u are 20, go earn a living by your own self, leave my house.

Son - I shall walk tall in this society we live!

Son walks out!

A week later father goes to filling station, on buying petrol a man approach him and say sir pls help me, I have to feed . . . Father turns back and sees his son,

Father - son, what have you done to yourself?

Son - father, I have learnt my lesson, pls take me back . . . I will be at my best

Father - I will show u mercy again . . .

The above is just an illustration of what mercy and justice from the frailty of humans, if humans whose knowledge is limited still act to a certain extent in a just and merciful manner, then how would anybody think that being just and merciful would be difficult for Allah, who we know to be all knowing, the Seeing, the knowledgeable . . . Who knows all that is in our heart and takes congnisance of every detail before his decision! Justice and Mercy is very easy for Allah! Allah is just and merciful, his attributes says it all!

Wow that was a sweet story. It is quite similar to the story of the prodigal son in the bible. The difference is that in the biblical account, the father never chased the son away but the son ran away by himself.
You see, this shows the father's love for the son but the picture I keep getting of Allah is one where the father is so self-sufficient anyway that He doesn't value the son at all.
I'll ask a simple question again: How much does Allah love? if it were possible, can he sacrifice for us? yes or no?

Anony(m): 8:21am

The question posed was a hypothetical question which was used in an attempt to ascertain God's loving nature. You have deliberately chosen to sidestep it. Note it is an "if" question.

You continue to harp on "hypothetical when you know that God is Absolute and The True Reality. Are you sincere in this your effort of turning truth to maybe, if?

"I know full well that God cannot die but if God could die would he love us enough to die for us?"

If you feel uncomfortable answering this question, it is either you are afraid that you will have to admit that hypothetically he could or you are afraid that by answering it at all(even hypothetically), you will be somehow blaspheming. The both I believe to be true, the latter more so but we will get to that in a bit later.

If the bold is what you are driving at, then let me say that even me will never be a 10 year old again because it is beneath me and does not befit my age quality now. The other aspect of my truth is that I will never be a woman because it does not fit my nature. In the light of what I say about myself, it is inferior to use them to illustrate the position of God, but it is the best that I can come up based on my limit as a person. It does not fit God Who creates death and commands it on creations so that their earthly qualities can be graded will put Himself in the same condition. Death itself will have to die when Allah commands it to do so. It is beneath Allah to die. What reason and who will be the One that does not die?

The problem however is that your reluctance to answer the question puts a limit to Allah's love in my mind. I cannot ascribe perfect love to him if by nature of his being almighty, he is incapable of showing it. I'll leave it at that and I won't push it much further.

Now I want you to notice something here; I assumed that Allah created love and you corrected me that he is the owner of love i.e. love is one of his characteristics. My contention now is that no one can exhibit perfect love and then switch it off and exhibit perfect hate. This is a contradiction of personality. The only way this is possible is if the person creates both love and hate i.e. they are subject to him in which case they will not be his attributes but properties he creates at which point the being cannot be said to be loving.

To a believer God will show Perfect Love and to a disbeliever God will show perfect hate on the Day of Assembly, if He wishes. Humans switch roles all the time. A mother becomes a wife to her husband. The same mother is the daughter of her parents, which is the mother of the child. Each role has its nature and it will be abnormal for the woman to be the mother or daughter of her husband or wife or mother of her parents or daughter or wife of her child.

So I am confused here, you cannot have it both ways it is either love is a creation of Allah or it is his character. Unique as he may be, he cannot contradict his personality else he nullifies himself. If you truly believe that because Allah is unique, he can exhibit perfect love and perfect hate, then you must agree that he can equally exhibit perfect immortality and perfect mortality if he chooses to (and I know you don't agree to this). The reason I wanted to start by having you guys list Allah's attributes was so that I can follow your premises logically and not attack strawmen.

Is Allah being the Creator is created by Allah? If Allah being The Merciful is not created by Allah, then being the Loving which has the greatest of love ability is not created by Allah, but His Ability, Character and it is inert in Him to do so. Or do you know any that loves more perfectly ad if he or she grow to reach that perfect love level?

Good answer, now my little contention. Remember we are talking about perfect love. A man who becomes a father for the first time cannot be a perfect father because he is totally inexperienced. Perfection follows from prior experience. You cannot know the taste of chicken if you have never tasted it before.

Human perspective. When you become a father, let me know. The filling of being a father for the first time is the greatest and other birth after the first does not surpass the first. While as a human you try being the best father for the first time, it is not as exciting when the other children come along, it becomes a routine, now. Fever of the first child cause panic. Fever of others, you know it will pass, so you give her tylenol, and wipe her with wet cool cloth to take the heat. And the first time you do something, it becomes the standard; the taste of the chicken becomes the standard to judge other chicken. This is the reason mum's cooking is the best, for me. And if mum is pretty, she becomes something to set as which woman to marry.

Now if the first time Allah loved was at the onset of creation, then love was a new experience to him hence he cannot have perfect love. The only way it is possible for him to have perfect love is if he created love but this would mean that he is not loving by nature but love is something he produced from himself which would in turn mean that he cannot be selfless and has blessed human beings with a quality he doesn't possess. You see your dilemma?

You are double talking on the love and loving. Allah before He created anything, he was the Creator and was at the Highest standard of ability to create. Hence before He created anything that he showed love upon, He was The Loving and reached the Highest Standard of Loving in Ability to love Perfectly. Allah is unlike others who regrets and get pained after they see what they have created disobeying them. Allah knew Iblis will reject order, knew Adam and Eve will approach the tree and created hell and Paradise knowing that children of Adam will die and enter many the former, some the latter. I pray we all enter the Latter. You can not use your human knowledge which is limited to classify Allah. In the Quran, Allah says He will repeat creation and judge man saying this so that human mind can wrap it up when He says the recreation is easy, since He has created it even without example in easiness. It is similar when He says the sun rises and sets, because without going to space, what we see on earth, on the surface of the earth is that the sun rises and sets.

Well said, I have let go of that hypothetical question but remember, leaving that question unanswered leaves many knots untied and takes us further and further away from a meaningful conclusion.

You seem wanna play on words, using hypothetical, when you know that reality is the proper word. God is not changing and man does. God is in control and man is not.

I follow what you are saying and I agree that God has the right to do and undo if He chooses and we are nothing to question Him. All I am saying - and I believe you will agree - is that God has a definite character from which He must not contradict. For instance if I say God is perfectly good, it means that God cannot be perfectly evil. If God exhibits both characters, then He is neither good nor evil. We are not arguing about God's rights but His character

while you and i agree on the first 2 bold, i wonder you continue to question God, trying to define Him. And to a criminal, disbeliever, and we have seem many of them who say God is evil, in a way that it connotes perfect evil you seem to indicate above. these criminals say that because they ask why is God allowing something they see from their human level as bad, while the ignore all the good that they enjoy without the real merit for it. How hardworking can a person be when he makes 10 million pounds as profit per day, while others who toll harder by shear muscle and even brain along side him make much less? God does what He wants and in each of His action of command, He does not become less that the Authority, The Creator.

I like when you say that God does not fluctuate. The problem now lies in when you say that a God who is most-holy will tolerate unholiness because He is merciful and then punish unholiness because he is just. This shows a fluctuating God, If you agree to this, then I fail to see why you don't agree that an all-powerful God also has the right to choose to limit His power and allow himself to be seemingly powerless momentarily.
Note, I am not saying that God does not have such rights, all I am saying is that God's character must be steadfast. There must be a way to reconcile God's character with his rights; this you have not shown.

The way of God is clear and direct without ambiguity. God allows sinners to repent and when He forgives the repentant, it is Mercy. If sinner refuses to repent and even those who are not sinful become arrogant and prideful, God may punish them both in Justice for being unrepentant and for having pride, and Pride belongs to God alone. One God should have Pride and there is no meekness about Him. God tells us His Characters and His Rights; His Characters are unique to Him, alone and His Rights over us is that do not violate His Rights by ascribing it to ourselves or any other or dismissing each of them. His Right is that we should worship Him, alone and do not associate any with Him. He also by Himself guarantee us rights upon Him, that we should not loose hope of His Mercy, Characters and while He knows that we will make mistakes if we repent, He will accept our sincere repentance.

We will talk about trinity and blood sacrifice in due time. I will answer in due time but I want us to work out the exact character of God first then we will move on to whether it contradicts God's nature or not. If you can explain God's nature such that it is non-contradictory, then I'll let it be and we may just have to do away with trinity.

A few small misconceptions I want to clear are 1. I don't know of God frowning upon the killing of animals and 2. The three "entities" are not God each, are not parts of God but God (singular). I don't believe in 3 gods, I believe in one God.

For now let's not jump the gun let's keep working step by step.

The Nature is Perfect and He has revealed enough to man so that can know Him within the freedom of freewill man has. And to the bold, when God rejects something, an idea, its is as if He frowned against it [thievery; God frowns against thieft]. it was needlessness of animal blood of the jews that the same christian jews, eg paul proposed that human blood once and for all covers the animalsssssssssss. In the case of the jews, the animal blood stops the sin committed but not stop one from committing future sins, wherein another animal will be needed in the future. Is the blood of the human better because obviously it has not stopped the sins of the future so much so that the said man says his followers are vipers, adulterous, fools, etc and says he will reject even those great miracle workers by denying knowing them. Such human sacrifice is similar to panic Inca, etc because if there is value in it, it was temporary and not permanent. Of course i dont believe in the said human sacrifice and it is obvious that it is a silly concept considering God is Able to simply forgive, being The Judge over all the Laws.

tbaba1234: ^

Note what i said: Good as an attribute of God

Note what you said: we cannot really know what is good or evil

Does it look like the same to you, stop reading upside down....

I have been misunderstood:

you said:

Also, in Islamic theology ‘good’ as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature. Therefore the underlying assumption that evil and a good God cannot coexist may be true with a Christian view of God, that is why many christians find it difficult to reconcile evil in the world.

I replied:

I agree with the attributes you ascribe to God as true and not in parts. I believe that God is good and omnipotent and it doesn't give me a problem when it comes to looking at evil in the world. As a christian, I am not confused in any way In fact it is because I know that God is good that I can confidently say that evil is not of God.
When you say that "[good] as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature." are you saying that we cannot really know what is good or evil and therefore good and evil can coexist as unopposed to each other? If this is what you mean, how can you be sure if you are doing the will of Allah or if you are going contrary to his will? I think I need a lot of clarification on that issue. It hasn't been cleared up at all.

Notice I was not making a statement but asking a question about what you meant by saying God's goodness cannot be fully comprehended and implying that the belief that Good and evil can't coexist is just an assumption. Please read us again and give an answer that clarifies things.

You have to work ; It is called mercy because you will never work hard enough to earn it, The value of Allah's mercy to your good deeds are not comparable, That is the point, The fact that human nature is taken into consideration is part of the Justice of Allah......... It is not your best that gets you paradise, It is the mercy...

If you have to work for something that you will never work hard enough to earn, what's the point in working at all?

There are in perfect correlation... The mitigating circumstances are taken into consideration.... .... Mercy is granted (gifted) to the ones who did good works and were not defiantly disobedient... With all four conditions satisfied... One who gets the message, made the right choices, followed his disposition to God will have his justice tempered with mercy because of his mitigating circumstances.....

On the other hand- One who has failed in his purpose in the first place can not get that consideration...

It is totally just and it make perfect sense...

What will be unjust is to create man as imperfect creatures and expect absolute perfection and not grant him mercy..

The fact that mercy is granted is a show of Justice in itself.

What you have describe here is justice tempered by mercy it is neither perfect mercy nor perfect justice. Perfect mercy will pardon reprobate despicable sinners while perfect justice will punish even the slightest of sins.
You have created a middle ground consisting of a bit of both and that middle ground does not portray perfection of either of the two I am afraid. Perfect justice and perfect mercy are polar opposites, to balance between the two extremes means that You can't be equally perfect in the two. Can't you see it?

To say that God created man as imperfect would mean that God should not even expect man to be good at all, any strive for perfection at all would be pointless since man cannot possibly be perfect even if he tried. Don't you think so?

This makes no sense... Even the person insulting God is under the power of God at that very time.... All his functions are running.... Omnipotence is the ability to actualise an affair and the impossibility of failure ... So someone insulting God is a poor, poor example.. That ha nothing to do with God's Omnipotence... God has free will, his not striking anyone with thunderbolts is because his will was not to do so... It still demonstrates his Omnipotence...

Good, so if God can allow a man to insult Him and it doesn't take away from His power, how then does God taking the form of a man and allowing Himself to be beaten take anything away from His omnipotence?

Poor poor case so far...

Lol, I haven't made a case yet..........perhaps I've been asking "poor poor questions" .........a satisfactory answer would suffice.
[/quote]

@Sweetnecta, permit me to get back to you on this at a later time. Gotta take a break for a while.

Sweetnecta: Anony(m): 8:21am

You continue to harp on "hypothetical when you know that God is Absolute and The True Reality. Are you sincere in this your effort of turning truth to maybe, if?


If the bold is what you are driving at, then let me say that even me will never be a 10 year old again because it is beneath me and does not befit my age quality now. The other aspect of my truth is that I will never be a woman because it does not fit my nature. In the light of what I say about myself, it is inferior to use them to illustrate the position of God, but it is the best that I can come up based on my limit as a person. It does not fit God Who creates death and commands it on creations so that their earthly qualities can be graded will put Himself in the same condition. Death itself will have to die when Allah commands it to do so. It is beneath Allah to die. What reason and who will be the One that does not die?

The problem however is that your reluctance to answer the question puts a limit to Allah's love in my mind. I cannot ascribe perfect love to him if by nature of his being almighty, he is incapable of showing it. I'll leave it at that and I won't push it much further.


To a believer God will show Perfect Love and to a disbeliever God will show perfect hate on the Day of Assembly, if He wishes. Humans switch roles all the time. A mother becomes a wife to her husband. The same mother is the daughter of her parents, which is the mother of the child. Each role has its nature and it will be abnormal for the woman to be the mother or daughter of her husband or wife or mother of her parents or daughter or wife of her child.


Is Allah being the Creator is created by Allah? If Allah being The Merciful is not created by Allah, then being the Loving which has the greatest of love ability is not created by Allah, but His Ability, Character and it is inert in Him to do so. Or do you know any that loves more perfectly ad if he or she grow to reach that perfect love level?


Human perspective. When you become a father, let me know. The filling of being a father for the first time is the greatest and other birth after the first does not surpass the first. While as a human you try being the best father for the first time, it is not as exciting when the other children come along, it becomes a routine, now. Fever of the first child cause panic. Fever of others, you know it will pass, so you give her tylenol, and wipe her with wet cool cloth to take the heat. And the first time you do something, it becomes the standard; the taste of the chicken becomes the standard to judge other chicken. This is the reason mum's cooking is the best, for me. And if mum is pretty, she becomes something to set as which woman to marry.


You are double talking on the love and loving. Allah before He created anything, he was the Creator and was at the Highest standard of ability to create. Hence before He created anything that he showed love upon, He was The Loving and reached the Highest Standard of Loving in Ability to love Perfectly. Allah is unlike others who regrets and get pained after they see what they have created disobeying them. Allah knew Iblis will reject order, knew Adam and Eve will approach the tree and created hell and Paradise knowing that children of Adam will die and enter many the former, some the latter. I pray we all enter the Latter. You can not use your human knowledge which is limited to classify Allah. In the Quran, Allah says He will repeat creation and judge man saying this so that human mind can wrap it up when He says the recreation is easy, since He has created it even without example in easiness. It is similar when He says the sun rises and sets, because without going to space, what we see on earth, on the surface of the earth is that the sun rises and sets.



You seem wanna play on words, using hypothetical, when you know that reality is the proper word. God is not changing and man does. God is in control and man is not.



while you and i agree on the first 2 bold, i wonder you continue to question God, trying to define Him. And to a criminal, disbeliever, and we have seem many of them who say God is evil, in a way that it connotes perfect evil you seem to indicate above. these criminals say that because they ask why is God allowing something they see from their human level as bad, while the ignore all the good that they enjoy without the real merit for it. How hardworking can a person be when he makes 10 million pounds as profit per day, while others who toll harder by shear muscle and even brain along side him make much less? God does what He wants and in each of His action of command, He does not become less that the Authority, The Creator.


The way of God is clear and direct without ambiguity. God allows sinners to repent and when He forgives the repentant, it is Mercy. If sinner refuses to repent and even those who are not sinful become arrogant and prideful, God may punish them both in Justice for being unrepentant and for having pride, and Pride belongs to God alone. One God should have Pride and there is no meekness about Him. God tells us His Characters and His Rights; His Characters are unique to Him, alone and His Rights over us is that do not violate His Rights by ascribing it to ourselves or any other or dismissing each of them. His Right is that we should worship Him, alone and do not associate any with Him. He also by Himself guarantee us rights upon Him, that we should not loose hope of His Mercy, Characters and while He knows that we will make mistakes if we repent, He will accept our sincere repentance.



The Nature is Perfect and He has revealed enough to man so that can know Him within the freedom of freewill man has. And to the bold, when God rejects something, an idea, its is as if He frowned against it [thievery; God frowns against thieft]. it was needlessness of animal blood of the jews that the same christian jews, eg paul proposed that human blood once and for all covers the animalsssssssssss. In the case of the jews, the animal blood stops the sin committed but not stop one from committing future sins, wherein another animal will be needed in the future. Is the blood of the human better because obviously it has not stopped the sins of the future so much so that the said man says his followers are vipers, adulterous, fools, etc and says he will reject even those great miracle workers by denying knowing them. Such human sacrifice is similar to panic Inca, etc because if there is value in it, it was temporary and not permanent. Of course i dont believe in the said human sacrifice and it is obvious that it is a silly concept considering God is Able to simply forgive, being The Judge over all the Laws.

Mr_Anony: First of all, I must say that I love this reply! It is arguably the best I've recieved in this thread. Now please let us examine it together shall we....


Now GOD CANNOT DIE(by death I mean that God cannot cease to exist), but can God take the form a human being if He want's to? My answer is yes! For an all-powerful being that is an easy task. If you disagree, perhaps you may want to explain why an all-powerful being cannot take whichever form it chooses.

Allah chooses a form that is form that fits his majesty, remember in the Qur'anic verse I post, He said : and there is nothing like him, taking a form that is already in existence will invalidate his own statement, hence Allah form is that which fits his majesty, again another play:

Tj : King, you say you can do anything!

King : Yes, i am bestowed soveignty and I can do anything as such!

Tj: Can you bestow upon me the soveignty if what you say is true!

King: Yes, I can!

Tj : Then do it!

King: i am sorry, you do not deserve it!

Tj (visibly angry) : But you say you can do it! I ask can you do anything you said yes, now I ask you to take the form of a naked man and walk down the street!

King: I can do it, but i won't for it does not befit my majesty!

Tj : ramble all day long . . .

So Allah takes the form that fits his majesty and as he has proclaimed, there is nothing like him! Hence taking a form that micmics something that is in existence would invalidate such a statement!

Mr_Anony:
Secondly, since God is infinitely wise, and His wisdom surpasses ours: What if the solution God chooses is to take the form of a man, will it stop Him from being God?

Yes, because God should not lie, and His statement must always be true, his solution should not in anyway contradict what he has already proclaimed ( There is nothing like him) and Yes it would stop him from being God because he would have to live and behave like a human, making him not God! Yes it would stop him, if he has to do UNGODLY things like using the loo, eating, drinking, etc. Defiantely when God looks like a human, behave like a human and die like a human, then he is in fact a human! NOT GOD

Mr_Anony:
Thirdly I asked a hypothetical question but everyone seems to be trying to avoid it. I have never said that a person must die to show love, All I have said is that there is no way you can define God's kindness as love if it costs Him nothing. Now our problem: Since God has everything, how can we determine cost? Well our aim is not to determine cost but to determine love so we say assuming God didn't own everything but owned some things, will He still be benevolent and how benevolent can he be?
I am not even assuming that God is some kind of parent. All I am asking is if God is capable of more love than humans possess. If He is, the answer to that question should be an easy yes.

There is no way indeed to determine teh dimension of God's love or its cost, because there is nothing like him, but I have experience God love, and I do no need to know its' dimensions, i see the life I live and see the ones other live,makes me conclude what I enjoy I do not deserve, but God's love makes me enjoy these things, I look at the air i breath and conclude that God gave me free of charge, is that not love? How else do you want God to show you this love? Like I said God is the Creator hence we cannot expect him to behave the way we want him to! God created love hence there is no basis for comparing the love of God with that of him!

Mr_Anony:
I'll answer your bolded questions:

Yes because she gave up her life for her son. One characteristic of love that I know is that it makes us do silly things. If you have ever loved, you will know what I mean.

Even Romeo will disagree with you on this, the woman was unreasonable and extremely silly to die for her son who is accused of a crime as heinous as murder!while love make people do silly things, Unreasonable people will particularly want to do what the woman did, our collective humanity should move us to demanding justice for the person murdered . . . and as the story goes the woman died in vain, as the son immediately murdered another person to show his gratitude!

Mr_Anony:
Yes the judge was fair because the crime has been punished and the woman voluntarily chose to pay for the crime.
It is just like if you vouch for somebody when he goes to borrow money, It is perfectly fair and just that you pay his debts in the situation that the person cannot pay.

Now, of every statement you have made so far, i think this the bold is in extremely bad taste and morally unacceptable, how would anybody expect an innocent individual to pay for the crime of murder done by another! and to cap it off you referred it to as "voluntarily chose to pay for the crime" that is low brow! The Judge have perverted the course of justice, by punishing one for the crime of another, can you show me how the woman owed her son (Tj) in this case?

Mr_Anony:
The last part of your answer assumes I would say say no, so it doesn't really apply to me however, It leads to my question: Assuming -just for explanatory purposes- that God wasn't omnipotent, would He jump in front of a truck for me? Is that consistent with His behaviour?
You know what else I have also realized, even with God as He is all powerful, He can [/b]still jump in front of a truck for me if He [b]chooses to. Wouldn't saying that God cannot do it be limiting His wisdom and choices?

Since the God you are assuming is not omnipotent, then it isn't God! in any respect! And let say back to you, what stop god from being shiva, Vishna, or even Sango or any idol or even porridge? the attributes of God is the logic behind it, God would not behave silly ( as u expect him to in the case of the woman or unreasonable).

Mr_Anony:

Wow that was a sweet story. It is quite similar to the story of the prodigal son in the bible. The difference is that in the biblical account, the father never chased the son away but the son ran away by himself.
You see, this shows the father's love for the son but the picture I keep getting of Allah is one where the father is so self-sufficient anyway that He doesn't value the son at all.
I'll ask a simple question again: How much does Allah love? if it were possible, can he sacrifice for us? yes or no?

Actually I just contrived the story, but essence remain the same, God has his own way to deliver his justice and mercy that supersedes our logic and ways, the story was merely expressing a man and his son, if man can punish ( being Just to ) and then show Mercy to those who have wronged him severally ( MERCY), then the real issue you try had to evade, how difficult is it for God to do such?
1 it is not possible, so No

2. If it were possible, No still!

Allah love , mercy and Justice have been shown numerous times: take the people of Lout

Allah sends them a messenger to correct them and guide them to the right part, despite they already having know

Now before you move forward, are we discussing about Allah as describe by the attributes posted, or are you simply trying to transpose another figure thereby ignoring these attributes.

As it is going... Mr anony can not get past first base... The argument has two focuses

i. Show that an unjust blood sacrifice is the 'perfect justice' and no other form of Justice exists.... I have shown a model of Justice that is well rounded and far superior by any normal person's standard...

ii. Omnipotence... Quite frankly you can't get past this one...

Alright....

No you were not misunderstood

I said: the underlying assumption that evil and [b]a good God [/b]cannot coexist

You said: Notice I was not making a statement but asking a question about what you meant by saying God's goodness cannot be fully comprehended and implying that the belief that [b]Good and evil can't coexist [/b]is just an assumption. Please read us again and give an answer that clarifies things.

Does it sound like the same thing Read every word::

What you have describe here is justice tempered by mercy it is neither perfect mercy nor perfect justice. Perfect mercy will pardon reprobate despicable sinners while perfect justice will punish even the slightest of sins.
You have created a middle ground consisting of a bit of both and that middle ground does not portray perfection of either of the two I am afraid. Perfect justice and perfect mercy are polar opposites, to balance between the two extremes means that You can't be equally perfect in the two. Can't you see it?

To say that God created man as imperfect would mean that God should not even expect man to be good at all, any strive for perfection at all would be pointless since man cannot possibly be perfect even if he tried. Don't you think so?

Please refer to the attributes of Allah listed by Vedaxcool... I do not know how many times i have to say that to you; Did you see 'perfectly' anywhere? Do not give me attributes you do not see there...

God is the Just
God is the Merciful

The attributes of Allah of Justice and Mercy can be appreciated not fully understood. It is of a transcendental nature. Trying to fit it into your perception of 'perfect Justice' is one the failures of you guys...

What i have described is a Just system as every human understands it.... Justice can not truly be justice without an element of mercy even in our world. That is why criminals have three strikes and people with first time offenses are treated more lightly than hardened criminals...

To try and transpose what in this world would be seen as an unfair treatment to God because you consider it to be 'perfect Justice' is ludicrous.....

What you call 'perfect justice' is actually unjust.... It fails to take into consideration all factors in play here, How can Justice be perfect when conditions are not examined first?.... Sorry but this will be an impossible sell.

The Model described is what i will call 'justice' because it covers all angles.

Good, so if God can allow a man to insult Him and it doesn't take away from His power, how then does God taking the form of a man and allowing Himself to be beaten take anything away from His omnipotence?

No it doesn't because even as the man is talking, God omnipotence is displayed... Remember free will, only God has this...

Moving from infinite to finite is not a feature of omnipotence, Becoming dependent is not omnipotence, needing breast milk, food and drink and needing to go to the toilet is not omnipotence.... Essentially that can not be God.....

Do you know the difference between inifinite and finite? ... It is unimaginable, it is meaningless... That is how unimaginable and meaningless the concept of a man-god is... The concept of any created object as God is similarly silly...

This is so straightforward... I wonder sometimes why you guys are so confused.

tbaba1234: As it is going... Mr anony can not get past first base... The argument has two focuses

i. Show that an unjust blood sacrifice is the 'perfect justice' and no other form of Justice exists.... I have shown a model of Justice that is well rounded and far superior by any normal person's standard...

ii. Omnipotence... Quite frankly you can't get past this one...

The "argument" you are referring to here is simply a creation of your own imagination. I have only been asking questions of Allah's attributes. You are just hearing exactly what you want to hear.

Alright....

No you were not misunderstood

I said: the underlying assumption that evil and [b]a good God [/b]cannot coexist

You said: Notice I was not making a statement but asking a question about what you meant by saying God's goodness cannot be fully comprehended and implying that the belief that [b]Good and evil can't coexist [/b]is just an assumption. Please read us again and give an answer that clarifies things.

Does it sound like the same thing Read every word::

Since as you say you understood the question I asked, perhaps you want to explain that paragraph again because apparently I didn't get it.

Please refer to the attributes of Allah listed by Vedaxcool... I do not know how many times i have to say that to you; Did you see 'perfectly' anywhere? Do not give me attributes you do not see there...

God is the Just
God is the Merciful

The attributes of Allah of Justice and Mercy can be appreciated not fully understood. It is of a transcendental nature. Trying to fit it into your perception of 'perfect Justice' is one the failures of you guys...

Wow, I was under the assumption that God is perfect therefore if He had any attributes, they must be at perfection. your transcedental-cannot-be-understood description is nothing more than an obfuscating attempt at exalting Allah's nature. If Allah's nature is not perfect, then he is not the greatest.
I don't want to argue on semantics with you but I am sure that if you know the meaning of perfect, you will know that it is not subject to perception.

What i have described is a Just system as every human understands it.... Justice can not truly be justice without an element of mercy even in our world. That is why criminals have three strikes and people with first time offenses are treated more lightly than hardened criminals...

No my friend, justice and mercy are two different things entirely. What you call Allah's justice is simply born from what you see around you. There is nothing transcedental about the justice you described. It is How I as an imperfect man would judge because it puts sin in levels(I'll expand on this later)

To try and transpose what in this world would be seen as an unfair treatment to God because you consider it to be 'perfect Justice' is ludicrous.....

Actually, you are the one giving God an unfair treatment here because you are reducing His mercy and justice to imperfection by trying to balance them out so that they fit into your "points-based system of attaining paradise"

What you call 'perfect justice' is actually unjust.... It fails to take into consideration all factors in play here, How can Justice be perfect when conditions are not examined first?.... Sorry but this will be an impossible sell.
The Model described is what i will call 'justice' because it covers all angles.

Again you are second-guessing me here and giving a rebuttal based on what you expect me to answer.

No it doesn't because even as the man is talking, God omnipotence is displayed... Remember free will, only God has this...

Moving from infinite to finite is not a feature of omnipotence, Becoming dependent is not omnipotence, needing breast milk, food and drink and needing to go to the toilet is not omnipotence.... Essentially that can not be God.....

Do you know the difference between inifinite and finite? ... It is unimaginable, it is meaningless... That is how unimaginable and meaningless the concept of a man-god is... The concept of any created object as God is similarly silly...

This is so straightforward... I wonder sometimes why you guys are so confused.

Notice the highlighted: The claim is that God chose to become man, chose [/b]to eat,[b]chose to drink e.t.c. At anytime He wished, He could have chosen [/b]to take back His majesty.
[b]Choosing to move from infinite to finite should be well within the powers of an omnipotent. Don't you agree?

Notice the highlighted: The claim is that God chose to become man, chose to eat,chose to drink e.t.c. At anytime He wished, He could have chosen to take back His majesty.Choosing to move from infinite to finite should be well within the powers of an omnipotent. Don't you agree?

No, It makes God no longer God..... simple... and that is meaningless....

Most of your other comments are of little value, so i will just respond to this, because it seems you still can not understand how meaningless this is.

God has attributes; those attributes make Him God... God has free will.... God exercises his free will in a way that is befitting of his attributes, Otherwise, He is no longer God. His ways are not the ways of the creation..... There is nothing comparable to Him

To denigrate God to a dot on the earth, that is a dot on the galaxy, that is a dot in the universe is the greatest injustice anyone can do..

If God loses any of his attributes, He is no longer God and that is a meaningless statement...

Coming back to 'Circle triangles' again.. are we?...

vedaxcool:
Allah chooses a form that is form that fits his majesty, remember in the Qur'anic verse I post, He said : and there is nothing like him, taking a form that is already in existence will invalidate his own statement, hence Allah form is that which fits his majesty, again another play

I don't quite agree with your above statement simply because if we follow strictly with "there is nothing like Him", the mere fact that you pray to God and He hears you already makes you similar in the sense that both you and God have personalities. If He was really nothing at all like His creation, then you wouldn't be able to communicate with Him.

Tj : King, you say you can do anything!

King : Yes, i am bestowed soveignty and I can do anything as such!

Tj: Can you bestow upon me the soveignty if what you say is true!

King: Yes, I can!

Tj : Then do it!

King: i am sorry, you do not deserve it!

Tj (visibly angry) : But you say you can do it! I ask can you do anything you said yes, now I ask you to take the form of a naked man and walk down the street!

King: I can do it, but i won't for it does not befit my majesty!

Tj : ramble all day long . . .

So Allah takes the form that fits his majesty and as he has proclaimed, there is nothing like him! Hence taking a form that micmics something that is in existence would invalidate such a statement!

I think I get picture of Allah quite well, your contention is that he is way too mighty to "humble" himself. This is why I say Allah cannot/does not love, he may be benevolent and kind but the only way available for him to truly show love is to "inconvenience" himself. (I'll expand on this further down)

Yes, because God should not lie, and His statement must always be true, his solution should not in anyway contradict what he has already proclaimed ( There is nothing like him) and Yes it would stop him from being God because he would have to live and behave like a human, making him not God! Yes it would stop him, if he has to do UNGODLY things like using the loo, eating, drinking, etc. Defiantely when God looks like a human, behave like a human and die like a human, then he is in fact a human! NOT GOD

No it will not stop God from being God, much like a king disguised as a beggar doesn't stop him from being a king.

There is no way indeed to determine teh dimension of God's love or its cost, because there is nothing like him, but I have experience God love, and I do no need to know its' dimensions, i see the life I live and see the ones other live,makes me conclude what I enjoy I do not deserve, but God's love makes me enjoy these things, I look at the air i breath and conclude that God gave me free of charge, is that not love? How else do you want God to show you this love? Like I said God is the Creator hence we cannot expect him to behave the way we want him to! God created love hence there is no basis for comparing the love of God with that of him!

Good, if you see God's love all around you, why then do you limit it to your perception of His majesty. I believe God's love surpasses all and goes beyond whatever love I can come up with. If I can come up with love that God is not able to express, then His love is not greater than mine. God's love is unlimited.

Even Romeo will disagree with you on this, the woman was unreasonable and extremely silly to die for her son who is accused of a crime as heinous as murder!while love make people do silly things, Unreasonable people will particularly want to do what the woman did, our collective humanity should move us to demanding justice for the person murdered . . . and as the story goes the woman died in vain, as the son immediately murdered another person to show his gratitude!

What the woman did is what almost every mother I know will do for their children. If you doubt me, ask your mother if she can die for a crime you committed, I am 90% sure she'll say yes. That the son committed another crime after the mother died for him goes to show the wickedness and foolishness of the son and not that of the mother.

Now, of every statement you have made so far, i think this the bold is in extremely bad taste and morally unacceptable, how would anybody expect an innocent individual to pay for the crime of murder done by another! and to cap it off you referred it to as "voluntarily chose to pay for the crime" that is low brow! The Judge have perverted the course of justice, by punishing one for the crime of another, can you show me how the woman owed her son (Tj) in this case?

I never said the woman owed her son. The analogy is that the son owed the law with his life, the woman chose to pay that debt with her life in place of the son's life. That is love.

Since the God you are assuming is not omnipotent, then it isn't God! in any respect! And let say back to you, what stop god from being shiva, Vishna, or even Sango or any idol or even porridge? the attributes of God is the logic behind it, God would not behave silly ( as u expect him to in the case of the woman or unreasonable).

Uhm...I never said God is not omnipotent, I don't know where you got that from. I said "hypothetically if God were not omnipotent, would He love me enough too...."
Perhaps your problem is with hypothetical questions which is funny seeing all the parables you have used so far.
Please stop misreading me on purpose. If we start twisting each others words, it will lead us nowhere.

vedaxcool:

Actually I just contrived the story, but essence remain the same, God has his own way to deliver his justice and mercy that supersedes our logic and ways, the story was merely expressing a man and his son, if man can punish ( being Just to ) and then show Mercy to those who have wronged him severally ( MERCY), then the real issue you try had to evade, how difficult is it for God to do such?

I agree that God shows absolute mercy and absolute justice but my point is that there is no way you can have absolute mercy and absolute justice as attributes. A man can show mercy and justice because both are imperfect in him so when he is being just, he can balance it out with mercy and vice versa.
God is not like that, God is absolute. The system of getting to paradise if "your good outweighs your bad" is similar to the kind of justice humans will exhibit and it limits God.

1 it is not possible, so No

2. If it were possible, No still!

Thanks for answering. Your answers indicate to me that Allah is incapable of selfless love (we shall come back to this)

Allah love , mercy and Justice have been shown numerous times: take the people of Lout

Allah sends them a messenger to correct them and guide them to the right part, despite they already having know

Actually we have two different accounts of that story but basically, yeah it shows God's mercy and justice. It also shows something more profound, God's love. Out of curiosity, does your story have the part where Abraham pleads with God?........or better still, link me to where the quran talks about it.

Now before you move forward, are we discussing about Allah as describe by the attributes posted, or are you simply trying to transpose another figure thereby ignoring these attributes.

Yes we are discussing based on the attributes posted. All I am doing is pointing out to you where some of those attributes conflict each other and trying to get you to reconcile them.
I think at this point, (though I don't fully agree) I have gotten a better understanding of your perception of God.

There's one thing that doesn't quite tally is this; from the Description of Allah by Imam Ali as posted by LagosShia on the first page, If it is indeed accurate, It says Allah is so so great and mighty, he is not like any of his creations, doesn't speak with a voice etc. Totally beyond imagination, if one points to him with his senses, then he is pointing to something other than Allah.

LagosShia:

Now if Allah is so so high and mighty and unlike his creation as portrayed in the above, how can man possibly worship him when even the mere attempt at prayer will entail visualizing him hence nullifying the fact that it is indeed him that is being prayed to? To pray, means o assume that at least he can hear you and that he will respond. Once you do this, you have ascribed a personality to him and it immediately negates your logic of him being unlike anything else. Your perception of God (or rather Imam Ali's perception of God) describes someone who it is impossible to communicate with.

For me, I believe God is so Great and Mighty and of Eternal Majesty and Glory. God is Good and is absolute perfection. He is way above and beyond anything I can imagine. but you know something that is really beautiful about God is that He loves us so much that He comes down to our level to communicate with little insignificant specks of dust like us. The mere fact that we pray to Almighty God and he bothers to hear insignificant beings like us at all shows the great love He has for us. You know what, it doesn't stop there, God's love is even greater. I have no problem believing that because of God's great love, He can give up His life if He had to and even do exceedingly, abundantly above anything and everything I can think or imagine. If I can imagine it, God can surpass it.

Sweetnecta: Anony(m): 8:21am
You continue to harp on "hypothetical when you know that God is Absolute and The True Reality. Are you sincere in this your effort of turning truth to maybe, if?

An if is simply an if, Since hypothetical is a problem for you, I won't push it. Lets move on.

[b]If the bold is what you are driving at, then let me say that even me will never be a 10 year old again because it is beneath me and does not befit my age quality now. [/b]The other aspect of my truth is that I will never be a woman because it does not fit my nature. In the light of what I say about myself, it is inferior to use them to illustrate the position of God, but it is the best that I can come up based on my limit as a person. It does not fit God Who creates death and commands it on creations so that their earthly qualities can be graded will put Himself in the same condition. Death itself will have to die when Allah commands it to do so. It is beneath Allah to die. What reason and who will be the One that does not die?

The question is not about what befits but what you will do for love. If your son was dying and the only way to save him was to become a toddler, I am sure that you will not hesitate to do it because of the love you have for your child. God loves you even more. His love is limitless.

To a believer God will show Perfect Love and to a disbeliever God will show perfect hate on the Day of Assembly, if He wishes. Humans switch roles all the time. A mother becomes a wife to her husband. The same mother is the daughter of her parents, which is the mother of the child. Each role has its nature and it will be abnormal for the woman to be the mother or daughter of her husband or wife or mother of her parents or daughter or wife of her child.

My friend, this is the point I have been trying to get you to see all this time. God is God, He never changes but 'switching roles' so to speak does not negate Him being God in any way. In the same way the same woman is mother, daughter and wife and yet the same person.
It is until God's character changes then we can say that He has changed. God's nature remains the same forever irrespective of what form He manifests Himself to us in.

Is Allah being the Creator is created by Allah? If Allah being The Merciful is not created by Allah, then being the Loving which has the greatest of love ability is not created by Allah, but His Ability, Character and it is inert in Him to do so. Or do you know any that loves more perfectly ad if he or she grow to reach that perfect love level?

Again I agree, love is God's inert character/ability. No one loves more perfectly. This is why I say that it shouldn't be beyond God to give up something for those He loves.

Human perspective. When you become a father, let me know. The filling of being a father for the first time is the greatest and other birth after the first does not surpass the first. While as a human you try being the best father for the first time, it is not as exciting when the other children come along, it becomes a routine, now. Fever of the first child cause panic. Fever of others, you know it will pass, so you give her tylenol, and wipe her with wet cool cloth to take the heat. And the first time you do something, it becomes the standard; the taste of the chicken becomes the standard to judge other chicken. This is the reason mum's cooking is the best, for me. And if mum is pretty, she becomes something to set as which woman to marry.

The feeling of being a father for the first time - ecstatic as it may be - doesn't automatically make you a perfect father. That's the point. You even made my point for me because when the other children start coming, you can handle their problems better.

You are double talking on the love and loving. Allah before He created anything, he was the Creator and was at the Highest standard of ability to create. Hence before He created anything that he showed love upon, He was The Loving and reached the Highest Standard of Loving in Ability to love Perfectly. Allah is unlike others who regrets and get pained after they see what they have created disobeying them. Allah knew Iblis will reject order, knew Adam and Eve will approach the tree and created hell and Paradise knowing that children of Adam will die and enter many the former, some the latter. I pray we all enter the Latter. You can not use your human knowledge which is limited to classify Allah. In the Quran, Allah says He will repeat creation and judge man saying this so that human mind can wrap it up when He says the recreation is easy, since He has created it even without example in easiness. It is similar when He says the sun rises and sets, because without going to space, what we see on earth, on the surface of the earth is that the sun rises and sets.

long talk, the question was: what was Allah loving? He couldn't possibly have loved anything else before creation. Love is experiential, it is uncreated and for love to occur, there must be more than one entity.

You seem wanna play on words, using hypothetical, when you know that reality is the proper word. God is not changing and man does. God is in control and man is not.

You seem to really hate the word hypothetical

while you and i agree on the first 2 bold, i wonder you continue to question God, trying to define Him. And to a criminal, disbeliever, and we have seem many of them who say God is evil, in a way that it connotes perfect evil you seem to indicate above. these criminals say that because they ask why is God allowing something they see from their human level as bad, while the ignore all the good that they enjoy without the real merit for it. How hardworking can a person be when he makes 10 million pounds as profit per day, while others who toll harder by shear muscle and even brain along side him make much less? God does what He wants and in each of His action of command, He does not become less that the Authority, The Creator.

I don't quite get what you disagree with here. All I said is that since God is perfectly Good as His character, He cannot be evil in any way. Evil that exists is a deviation from a perfect Good. A piece of cloth cannot be white and black at the same time. That's a stark contradiction.

The way of God is clear and direct without ambiguity. God allows sinners to repent and when He forgives the repentant, it is Mercy. If sinner refuses to repent and even those who are not sinful become arrogant and prideful, God may punish them both in Justice for being unrepentant and for having pride, and Pride belongs to God alone. One God should have Pride and there is no meekness about Him. God tells us His Characters and His Rights; His Characters are unique to Him, alone and His Rights over us is that do not violate His Rights by ascribing it to ourselves or any other or dismissing each of them. His Right is that we should worship Him, alone and do not associate any with Him. He also by Himself guarantee us rights upon Him, that we should not loose hope of His Mercy, Characters and while He knows that we will make mistakes if we repent, He will accept our sincere repentance.

Quite alright, but do you agree that there is a difference between rights and character?

The Nature is Perfect and He has revealed enough to man so that can know Him within the freedom of freewill man has. And to the bold, when God rejects something, an idea, its is as if He frowned against it [thievery; God frowns against thieft]. it was needlessness of animal blood of the jews that the same christian jews, eg paul proposed that human blood once and for all covers the animalsssssssssss. In the case of the jews, the animal blood stops the sin committed but not stop one from committing future sins, wherein another animal will be needed in the future. Is the blood of the human better because obviously it has not stopped the sins of the future so much so that the said man says his followers are vipers, adulterous, fools, etc and says he will reject even those great miracle workers by denying knowing them. Such human sacrifice is similar to panic Inca, etc because if there is value in it, it was temporary and not permanent. Of course i dont believe in the said human sacrifice and it is obvious that it is a silly concept considering God is Able to simply forgive, being The Judge over all the Laws.

Hopefully, I'll have time to discuss the Blood of Jesus in-depth.
Now, about blood sacrifice,(By the way, I thought you believe the Torah to also be the word of God? There's a lot of blood sacrifice in it)
Ok so man sins, God is merciful enough to forgive but if God just forgives like that, He will not be just and thereby contradict his nature - because justice requires that a crime must be paid for.
Christ dying on the cross is God paying the ultimate penalty. If a person now rejects the ultimate sacrifice, then the person must be perfectly good by himself else God will have no other choice than to carry out the wrath of judgment on such a person.

tbaba1234:

No, It makes God no longer God..... simple... and that is meaningless....

Most of your other comments are of little value, so i will just respond to this, because it seems you still can not understand how meaningless this is.

God has attributes; those attributes make Him God... God has free will.... God exercises his free will in a way that is befitting of his attributes, Otherwise, He is no longer God. His ways are not the ways of the creation..... There is nothing comparable to Him

Lol, which part of the word 'choice' don't you understand? You say God is omnipotent and has free will then go on to list things He cannot do.

To denigrate God to a dot on the earth, that is a dot on the galaxy, that is a dot in the universe is the greatest injustice anyone can do..

Is it not equally injustice to pray to God expecting Him to care about a tiny dot like you or don't you know that for you and God to communicate at all in any way, God has to come down to your level because clearly you cannot communicate on God's level of intelligence and power.?

Is it not 'injustice' when you ascribe a personality to God who is not anything like His creation in that you expect Him to hear a prayer, you believe He has particular will, He can be happy or angry with someone, He can speak e.t.c?

Is God not then a Spirit? Is man not also a spirit (albeit living in a body)?

If man is not created in the likeness of God, how then can man ever really worship God?

If man is just another creation like animals and rocks e.t.c. Why then do rocks and animals not worship God as well.

What is so special about man that makes God mindful of him?

If God loses any of his attributes, He is no longer God and that is a meaningless statement...

Coming back to 'Circle triangles' again.. are we?...

I can't help you; if you cannot consider hypothetical situations, that's just too bad.

^ It is like the common atheist question ' Can God create a stone so big that he cannot carry?" .... This question is senseless, but That is exactly what you are saying.... God can not be in a position less than Omnipotence that is what a man-God is, otherwise He is no longer God... Because his survival is dependent on his mother first, then his feeding, his society etc... He is totally dependent.

It is a meaningless proposition....

Is it not equally injustice to pray to God expecting Him to care about a tiny dot like you or don't you know that for you and God to communicate at all in any way, God has to come down to your level because clearly you cannot communicate on God's level of intelligence and power.?

Is it not 'injustice' when you ascribe a personality to God who is not anything like His creation in that you expect Him to hear a prayer, you believe He has particular will, He can be happy or angry with someone, He can speak e.t.c?

Injustice is when the right of someone is infringed on...

We are God's property... God does with what he owns as he wants... If i own something, i can treat it well or badly. That is independent on how tiny it is... Now God can decide to listen to the prayers of his property, He decides whether or not to grant the request of his property.... God has the right to decide to answer his property's prayer or not. No one's right is infringed...

No, it is not injustice.... Injustice is infringing on the right of an infinite creator by denigrating him to a man... God has the right to be worshipped as the infinite creator.. Denigrating him to the finite and ascribing a partner to him is infringing on that right.

Is God not then a Spirit? Is man not also a spirit (albeit living in a body)?

If man is not created in the likeness of God, how then can man ever really worship God?

If man is just another creation like animals and rocks e.t.c. Why then do rocks and animals not worship God as well.

What is so special about man that makes God mindful of him?

God is not a spirit!! We do not describe God in those terms... a spirit is created...

He is beyond anything we can imagine... Man is not in the likeness of God.... There is nothing in the created world comparable to Him.

Everthing even animals praise their creator in their own way...

Nothing is special about man, apart from the fact that He has been given a trust to fulfill... God is aware of all his creation...

"The creation of the Heavens and the Earth is indeed greater then the creation of mankind; yet, most of mankind know not." [Surah Ghafir, verse 57]

Do you not realize that everything in the heavens and earth submitsd to God: the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, and the animals? So do many human beings, though for many others punishment is well deserved. Anyone disgraced by God will have no one to honour him: God does whatever He will. [Sūrah al-Hajj: 18]

The seven heavens and the earth and everyone in them glorify Him. There is not a single thing that does not celebrate His praise, though you do not understand their praise: He is most forbearing, most forgiving. [Sūrah al-Isrā': 44]

The creation of the heavens and the earth is far beyond the creation of Man, We accepted a trust unlike the rest of creation, that is the only difference...

tbaba1234: ^ It is like the common atheist question ' Can God create a stone so big that he cannot carry?" .... This question is senseless, but That is exactly what you are saying.... God can not be in a position less than Omnipotence that is what a man-God is, otherwise He is no longer God... Because his survival is dependent on his mother first, then his feeding, his society etc... He is totally dependent.

It is a meaningless proposition....

The question I asked is nothing like the so called atheists question as the aim is not to test God's power but to understand His love.

Injustice is when the right of someone is infringed on...

We are God's property... God does with what he owns as he wants... If i own something, i can treat it well or badly. That is independent on how tiny it is... Now God can decide to listen to the prayers of his property, He decides whether or not to grant the request of his property.... God has the right to decide to answer his property's prayer or not. No one's right is infringed...

No, it is not injustice.... Injustice is infringing on the right of an infinite creator by denigrating him to a man... God has the right to be worshipped as the infinite creator.. Denigrating him to the finite and ascribing a partner to him is infringing on that right.

I haven't infringed on God's rights at all because I have said that God has the right to choose to take the form of a man if He wants to. You are the one denying Him such choices. Why even bother to pray since whether you pray or not, what will happen will happen? Why even bother to praise God if whether you praise Him or not, what happened was going to happen anyway?

God is not a spirit!! We do not describe God in those terms... a spirit is created...

He is beyond anything we can imagine... Man is not in the likeness of God.... There is nothing in the created world comparable to Him.

Everthing even animals praise their creator in their own way...

Nothing is apart special about man, apart from the fact that He has been given a trust to fulfill... God is aware of all his creation...

"The creation of the Heavens and the Earth is indeed greater then the creation of mankind; yet, most of mankind know not." [Surah Ghafir, verse 57]

Do you not realize that everything in the heavens and earth submitsd to God: the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, and the animals? So do many human beings, though for many others punishment is well deserved. Anyone disgraced by God will have no one to honour him: God does whatever He will. [Sūrah al-Hajj: 18]

The seven heavens and the earth and everyone in them glorify Him. There is not a single thing that does not celebrate His praise, though you do not understand their praise: He is most forbearing, most forgiving. [Sūrah al-Isrā': 44]

The creation of the heavens and the earth is far beyond the creation of Man, We accepted a trust unlike the rest of creation, that is the only difference...

Please tell me about this trust that man accepted

waste of time.

if Mr.Anony is after the truth and not blind fanaticism and lazy beliefs,after the thread (i earlier) presented where i engaged him,he should have become a Muslim by now.but again,guidance is only from Allah (swt).yet,we should not blindfold our eyes while pretending to be seeking light.

The question I asked is nothing like the so called atheists question as the aim is not to test God's power but to understand His love.

It is exactly the same thing... God in a position of powerlessness is impossible and meaningless...

I haven't infringed on God's rights at all because I have said that God has the right to choose to take the form of a man if He wants to. You are the one denying Him such choices. Why even bother to pray since whether you pray or not, what will happen will happen? Why even bother to praise God if whether you praise Him or not, what happened was going to happen anyway?

The choice, you talk about is impossible and meaningless because it mean He is no longer God... It is definitely an infringement of the right of God... There is no other twist, you can put on this... To denigrate an infinite God who created everything to what is essentially an insignificant person on an insignificant planet in our galaxy not even talking about the universe is a tremendous injustice in itself.

You pray because you have been given a trust, you need guidance to fulfill that purpose... Prayer is not only about asking for what we want for the muslim, infact that is secondary.. It is for the remembrance of God and a desperate request for guidance in fulfilling your purpose.. Once the remembrance of God is lost, you are more open to sins, That is why the muslim asks for guidance everyday, in every unit of the 5 daily prayer... There will be punishment in the case of disobedience and bliss/mercy in the case of obedience... So we have to try and always stay on track.

Please tell me about this trust that man accepted..

Unlike other creations, Man and Jinn (usually translated as spirits, (satan is a jinn)) have free choice in the worship of the creator... angels, animals, etc do not have free choice, they praise God in their own way as part of their existence. The trust is of reason (which includes free choice) and moral responsibility. The other creation do as they are told (for instance angels) or in accordance with the nature they were created, there is no free choice.

We offered the Trust [Of reason and moral responsibility] to the heavens, the earth, and the mountains, yet they refused to undertake it and were afraid of it; mankind undertook it– they have always been inept and foolish. God will punish the hypocrites and the idolaters, both men and women, and turn with mercy to the believers, both men and women: God is most forgiving, most merciful. (Surah 33 72-73)

[Prophet], when your Lord took out the offspring from the loins of the Children of Adam and made them bear witness about themselves, He said, ‘Am I not your Lord?’ and they replied, ‘Yes, we bear witness.’ So you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, ‘We were not aware of this,’ or, ‘It was our forefathers who, before us, ascribed partners to God, and we are only the descendants who came after them: will you destroy us because of falsehoods they invented?’ In this way We explain the messages, so that they may turn [to the right path]. (Surah 7: 172-174)

So while we have an innate disposition to God (Called the fitrah in Islam), We have the choice to choose to worship Him or not....

So why was man created?

The creation is a manifestation of Allah’s attribute of being the creator. In the creation of man within the scheme of things, there is manifest Allah’s attribute of mercy, his attribute of justice and this is the reason for the creation of man from the point of view of Allah.

so on the path of God, He created us for mercy:

Surah 11:
118. If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people: but they will not cease to dispute.
119.Except those on whom thy Lord hath bestowed His Mercy: and for this did He create them: and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled: "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."

Allah says in the Quran he is of no need of your punishment:

"What would Allah do with your punishment if you are grateful and believe? And ever is Allah Appreciative and Knowing."(4:147)

From human perspective, why did God create man?

"We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us" [Surah adh-Dhariyyat, verse 56)

So relative to Allah, we were created in a means or a way in which Allah has chosen to manifest his attributes of creation, mercy, grace etc and he could have chosen another one. But relative to us as human beings, we know that our purpose is to worship Allah. Allah does not need our worship, Allah didn’t need to create. When he created us to worship him, he didn’t create us, out of a need for our worship, because Allah has no needs. In a famous hadith qudsi in which Allah says;

If all of you, jinn and mankind, were to worship like the most righteous amongst you, it would not increase the dominion of Allah in any way shape or form. And if all of us, jinn and mankind ...

Therefore when we look for the purpose of worship, we have to look into man. Allah created us to worship him, because we need to worship him. It is something he has given us as a means of benefiting ourselves. We are the ones who benefit from it. Worship has been established, fundamentally for the growth, the spiritual growth of man. This growth takes place through the remembrance of Allah. When you look at all the different aspects of worship, you will see the core of it is focused on the remembrance of Allah....

Prayer:

I am God; there is no god but Me. So worship Me and keep up the prayer so that you remember Me [20:14]

Fasting:

You who believe, fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may be mindful of God. (Surah 2:183)

Worship is there for us to remember Allah. And it is in the remembrance of Allah, that we achieve that consciousness. Because it is when we forget Allah, that Shaytan causes us to disobey Allah and fall into sin. So it is only in His remembrance that we can attain salvation. All of the various acts of worship from saying "Bismillah (in the name of Allah)" when we eat is to help us remember Allah in order to grow spiritually.

The purpose of this life is the worship of Allah, this life is a test. A test for us, will we worship Allah, or will we forget Him. This is where our focus has to begin.

LagosShia: waste of time.

if Mr.Anony is after the truth and not blind fanaticism and lazy beliefs,after the thread (i earlier) presented where i engaged him,he should have become a Muslim by now.but again,guidance is only from Allah (swt).yet,we should not blindfold our eyes while pretending to be seeking light.

I think you are right...

It does baffle me , how people shut down their reason when it comes to their faith... Believing in something that is so meaningless... I guess it is the emotion, the attempt at justifying something so openly flawed. That is what you get with zero proof, just blind faith.

Guidance is from Allah alone...

LagosShia: waste of time.

if Mr.Anony is after the truth and not blind fanaticism and lazy beliefs,after the thread (i earlier) presented where i engaged him,he should have become a Muslim by now.but again,guidance is only from Allah (swt).yet,we should not blindfold our eyes while pretending to be seeking light.

Lol, just satisfy my questions with suitable answers...........There's no need for all this accusation.
You seem to be so uncomfortable with questions.....it's not your style. You prefer claims and counter-claims so that you can shout me down with ad hominems. lol You are a funny fellow.

tbaba1234:

It is exactly the same thing... God in a position of powerlessness is impossible and meaningless...

No it is not because I never implied God was in a position of powerlessness but God appearing to be in a position of powerlessness.

The choice, you talk about is impossible and meaningless because it mean He is no longer God... It is definitely an infringement of the right of God... There is no other twist, you can put on this... To denigrate an infinite God who created everything to what is essentially an insignificant person on an insignificant planet in our galaxy not even talking about the universe is a tremendous injustice in itself.

You keep hearing exactly what you want to hear. I have never implied that God is reduced in any way. I have said he can choose to appear as a human. To you he may look reduced but He still has all His power intact. If you can't get it, then that's just too bad.
Question was can He do it? my answer is yes. Your answer is no. I am sorry but you seem to be the one limiting God here.

You pray because you have been given a trust, you need guidance to fulfill that purpose... Prayer is not only about asking for what we want for the muslim, infact that is secondary.. It is for the remembrance of God and a desperate request for guidance in fulfilling your purpose.. Once the remembrance of God is lost, you are more open to sins, That is why the muslim asks for guidance everyday, in every unit of the 5 daily prayer... There will be punishment in the case of disobedience and bliss/mercy in the case of obedience... So we have to try and always stay on track.


Unlike other creations, Man and Jinn (usually translated as spirits, (satan is a jinn)) have free choice in the worship of the creator... angels, animals, etc do not have free choice, they praise God in their own way as part of their existence. The trust is of reason (which includes free choice) and moral responsibility. The other creation do as they are told (for instance angels) or in accordance with the nature they were created, there is no free choice.

We offered the Trust [Of reason and moral responsibility] to the heavens, the earth, and the mountains, yet they refused to undertake it and were afraid of it; mankind undertook it– they have always been inept and foolish. God will punish the hypocrites and the idolaters, both men and women, and turn with mercy to the believers, both men and women: God is most forgiving, most merciful. (Surah 33 72-73)

Now this Surah doesn't make sense to me. How do you offer free choice to something and the thing refuses to accept it? With what free choice did the mountains originally have with which they used to reject free choice? They were even afraid? How come? Also what free choice did man have before by which he now chose to undertake the trust.
Also, who is "We" in this story? Please clarify.

[Prophet], when your Lord took out the offspring from the loins of the Children of Adam and made them bear witness about themselves, He said, ‘Am I not your Lord?’ and they replied, ‘Yes, we bear witness.’ So you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, ‘We were not aware of this,’ or, ‘It was our forefathers who, before us, ascribed partners to God, and we are only the descendants who came after them: will you destroy us because of falsehoods they invented?’ In this way We explain the messages, so that they may turn [to the right path]. (Surah 7: 172-174)

So while we have an innate disposition to God (Called the fitrah in Islam), We have the choice to choose to worship Him or not....

So why was man created?

The creation is a manifestation of Allah’s attribute of being the creator. In the creation of man within the scheme of things, there is manifest Allah’s attribute of mercy, his attribute of justice and this is the reason for the creation of man from the point of view of Allah.

so on the path of God, He created us for mercy:

So God created man to show His mercy? Well, I can accept that to a degree.

Surah 11:
118. If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people: but they will not cease to dispute.
119.Except those on whom thy Lord hath bestowed His Mercy: and for this did He create them: and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled: "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."

Now this Surah paints an unjust god. First he chooses not to make mankind one people, then bestows his mercy on some then promises to fill hell with his creation. Where is the justice?

Allah says in the Quran he is of no need of your punishment:

"What would Allah do with your punishment if you are grateful and believe? And ever is Allah Appreciative and Knowing."(4:147)

From human perspective, why did God create man?

"We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us" [Surah adh-Dhariyyat, verse 56)

Again, who is this "We" you keep talking about?

So relative to Allah, we were created in a means or a way in which Allah has chosen to manifest his attributes of creation, mercy, grace etc and he could have chosen another one. But relative to us as human beings, we know that our purpose is to worship Allah. Allah does not need our worship, Allah didn’t need to create. When he created us to worship him, he didn’t create us, out of a need for our worship, because Allah has no needs. In a famous hadith qudsi in which Allah says;

If all of you, jinn and mankind, were to worship like the most righteous amongst you, it would not increase the dominion of Allah in any way shape or form. And if all of us, jinn and mankind ...

Therefore when we look for the purpose of worship, we have to look into man. Allah created us to worship him, because we need to worship him. It is something he has given us as a means of benefiting ourselves. We are the ones who benefit from it. Worship has been established, fundamentally for the growth, the spiritual growth of man. This growth takes place through the remembrance of Allah. When you look at all the different aspects of worship, you will see the core of it is focused on the remembrance of Allah....

So worship; Allah doesn't need worship, we are the ones who need to worship, however he creates man anyway with a need to do something that is meaningless to him for which he will punish man in the end if man does not do it? That doesn't sound very smart, actually it sounds pretty evil.

for instance, I make a bunch of toys that sing. I don't need the song, the song is meaningless to me but the toys sing anyway and whichever toy that refuses to sing, I break in pieces. That makes me a troubled person for destroying a toy for not singing a song that I don't even need to hear.

Prayer:

I am God; there is no god but Me. So worship Me and keep up the prayer so that you remember Me [20:14]

Fasting:

You who believe, fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may be mindful of God. (Surah 2:183)

Worship is there for us to remember Allah. And it is in the remembrance of Allah, that we achieve that consciousness. Because it is when we forget Allah, that Shaytan causes us to disobey Allah and fall into sin. So it is only in His remembrance that we can attain salvation. All of the various acts of worship from saying "Bismillah (in the name of Allah)" when we eat is to help us remember Allah in order to grow spiritually.

The purpose of this life is the worship of Allah, this life is a test. A test for us, will we worship Allah, or will we forget Him. This is where our focus has to begin.

man worships Allah so that man can remember him. Now this is all well and good except that Allah doesn't even value the worship (he doesn't need it), why then should he bother about the sins?

tbaba1234:
I think you are right...

It does baffle me , how people shut down their reason when it comes to their faith... Believing in something that is so meaningless... I guess it is the emotion, the attempt at justifying something so openly flawed. That is what you get with zero proof, just blind faith.

Guidance is from Allah alone...

Lol, Blind faith?? Sorry, you mistake me for someone else. I believe in reasonable faith.
I am asking you questions about what you believe. If they are true, then you should be able to explain them easily. I am not basing my questions on anything other than information I have been provided with on this thread. I am being charitable enough not to assume anything.

The problem with you (and LagosShia too) is that rather than explain your position, you desperately want to put me in a "christian box" and attack it. That way, by mocking what you believe to be christianity, you won't have to explain anything. I won't allow you that luxury. If you cannot clarify your position so that it makes logical sense then I am afraid your position is false.

Mr_Anony:
I don't quite agree with your above statement simply because if we follow strictly with "there is nothing like Him", the mere fact that you pray to God and He hears you already makes you similar in the sense that both you and God have personalities. If He was really nothing at all like His creation, then you wouldn't be able to communicate with Him.

and so you mean to say you hear the same God hears? or you communicate the same way God communicate? can you hear 2 people speak at the same time and understand what they are both saying at the time? again I ask you which God are you talking about? the one in the Qur'an, whose attributes I posted earlier? The fallacy behind you thinking remains, separate God attributes apart and then fault it! This sort of reasoning, will not aid you in knowing him, since we have told you his attributes and his description of himself, you can insist and repeat . . . I quite not agree with your statesment . . . but the statement remains clear there is nothing like God, He will NOT REDUCE HIMSELF TO what you want him to be. I agree with thaba's assertion that you making the same Rock and God fallacy of the atheists!

Mr_Anony:
I think I get picture of Allah quite well, your contention is that he is way too mighty to "humble" himself. This is why I say Allah cannot/does not love, he may be benevolent and kind but the only way available for him to truly show love is to "inconvenience" himself. (I'll expand on this further down)

I think I also get the God you have in mind, the sort of god that would walk down the street naked just to "humble" himself to people like you, The Kind that would Make a rock bigger than he can carry just to humble himself to the atheists . . . .the Kind that would stool just to "Humble" himself to humans . . . yes he cannot/does not love since love to you means dying unjustly and "humbling" oneself for crimes he did not commit and then still wanting to pretend that God is just . . . truly a clear mental picture is being formed in our mind . . . ( which i will expand later, atleast, a hindu can implement you kind of argument against you).

Mr_Anony:
No it will not stop God from being God, much like a king disguised as a beggar doesn't stop him from being a king.

I am sorry, I cannot quite agree with your line of reasoning, a king disguised as a beggar remains not a king as long as he would not be accorded that protocol of a King as people would not know him to be a King, any god that looks like a human, acts like a human, lives like human, powerless like human, stools like a human, . . . is definitely a human, even Pharaoh claimed to be god and where is he now, or wait Pharaoh could have been god at least, out of love a certain god could have appear to aid man for greatness . . . who knows how many people could have been a god in human form

Mr_Anony:
Good, if you see God's love all around you, why then do you limit it to your perception of His majesty. I believe God's love surpasses all and goes beyond whatever love I can come up with. If I can come up with love that God is not able to express, then His love is not greater than mine. God's love is unlimited.

That is your own perception, which you are only interested in believing, of course the only love you can come up with is dying for a crime you did not commit (of which personally you can never do), and God is wise and just . . . while you have insisted you would ignore his other attributes, I do not have such luxury indeed!

Mr_Anony:
What the woman did is what almost every mother I know will do for their children. If you doubt me, ask your mother if she can die for a crime you committed, I am 90% sure she'll say yes. That the son committed another crime after the mother died for him goes to show the wickedness and foolishness of the son and not that of the mother.

Really? My mother would tell point blankly that you are insane to expect her to die for a crime as grievous as murder, the woman in the story could be termed insane or suicidal for many reasons chief of which is that to die for some elses crime must be conditioned on the fact that you know the person would be a better person, truth be told the woman must have committed suicide because she got tired of the boys foolishness, the son is not foolish I could post a part two of the story and you would agree with me the boy is smart, he knows he will find another sucker to pay for his misdeeds, the woman should have know she had other kids to raise or in fact could have shown such love to an orphan who deserves it more . . . who knows ( but because she is short sighted the only sane decision which turned out extremely foolish was suicide), the woman if mentally balance would not act selfishly forgetting what is good for the society . . . but we know the logic you want to . . . anything is possible

Mr_Anony:
I never said the woman owed her son. The analogy is that the son owed the law with his life, the woman chose to pay that debt with her life in place of the son's life. That is love.

You likened it to debt, the question remains how did woman ever became the boy's guarantor? the woman dying for someone that killed another is the height of stupidity any living human can exhibit, and from every indication your logic is muddled thinking, the son's was not indebted to the law, for debt can be paid by others, the son's life could not be replaced by another even in if they wanted to . . .

Mr_Anony:
Uhm...I never said God is not omnipotent, I don't know where you got that from. I said "hypothetically if God were not omnipotent, would He love me enough too...."
Perhaps your problem is with hypothetical questions which is funny seeing all the parables you have used so far.
Please stop misreading me on purpose. If we start twisting each others words, it will lead us nowhere.

Umm I never said you did . . . i said the God you are assuming . . . [size=14pt]0f course avoiding the all too important question that is . . . what will stop God from being shiva, Vishna, or even Sango or any idol or even porridge?[/size] since god you have in mind can behave foolish in the name of love, why must only be man? Please simply answer the question in bold!

Mr_Anony:
I agree that God shows absolute mercy and absolute justice but my point is that there is no way you can have absolute mercy and absolute justice as attributes. A man can show mercy and justice because both are imperfect in him so when he is being just, he can balance it out with mercy and vice versa.
God is not like that, God is absolute. The system of getting to paradise if "your good outweighs your bad" is similar to the kind of justice humans will exhibit and it limits God.

good you wrote "is similar", but not quite is . . . which God are you talking about? cause you cannot continue to bring an unknown character to this discourse every now and then . . . The same you that said God listens and communicate like human, is now troubled that God mode of justice is "similar to" that of human thus limiting God . . . as if humans have ever said let you good outweigh you evil and any crime you commit is forgiven and be admitted back to the society . . . truly we do not know how u come up with this fallacies indeed! You comments will always contradict each other because it is not the truth!

Mr_Anony:
Thanks for answering. Your answers indicate to me that Allah is incapable of selfless love (we shall come back to this)

Yes, since selfless love to you can only be interpreted to mean dying for love in an unjust way . . .

Mr_Anony:
Actually we have two different accounts of that story but basically, yeah it shows God's mercy and justice. It also shows something more profound, God's love. Out of curiosity, does your story have the part where Abraham pleads with God?........or better still, link me to where the quran talks about it.

How did it show God's love if I may ask!

Mr_Anony:
Yes we are discussing based on the attributes posted. All I am doing is pointing out to you where some of those attributes conflict each other and trying to get you to reconcile them.
I think at this point, (though I don't fully agree) I have gotten a better understanding of your perception of God.

Evidently we are not, you dancing between one God known to me and another you want me to believe, by ignoring God's different attribute and only interested selfless love (more like senseless love)

vedaxcool:

and so you mean to say you hear the same God hears? or you communicate the same way God communicate? can you hear 2 people speak at the same time and understand what they are both saying at the time? again I ask you which God are you talking about? the one in the Qur'an, whose attributes I posted earlier? The fallacy behind you thinking remains, separate God attributes apart and then fault it! This sort of reasoning, will not aid you in knowing him, since we have told you his attributes and his description of himself, you can insist and repeat . . . I quite not agree with your statesment . . . but the statement remains clear there is nothing like God, He will NOT REDUCE HIMSELF TO what you want him to be. I agree with thaba's assertion that you making the same Rock and God fallacy of the atheists!



I think I also get the God you have in mind, the sort of god that would walk down the street naked just to "humble" himself to people like you, The Kind that would Make a rock bigger than he can carry just to humble himself to the atheists . . . .the Kind that would stool just to "Humble" himself to humans . . . yes he cannot/does not love since love to you means dying unjustly and "humbling" oneself for crimes he did not commit and then still wanting to pretend that God is just . . . truly a clear mental picture is being formed in our mind . . . ( which i will expand later, atleast, a hindu can implement you kind of argument against you).





I am sorry, I cannot quite agree with your line of reasoning, a king disguised as a beggar remains not a king as long as he would not be accorded that protocol of a King as people would not know him to be a King, any god that looks like a human, acts like a human, lives like human, powerless like human, stools like a human, . . . is definitely a human, even Pharaoh claimed to be god and where is he now, or wait Pharaoh could have been god at least, out of love a certain god could have appear to aid man for greatness . . . who knows how many people could have been a god in human form




That is your own perception, which you are only interested in believing, of course the only love you can come up with is dying for a crime you did not commit (of which personally you can never do), and God is wise and just . . . while you have insisted you would ignore his other attributes, I do not have such luxury indeed!




Really? My mother would tell point blankly that you are insane to expect her to die for a crime as grievous as murder, the woman in the story could be termed insane or suicidal for many reasons chief of which is that to die for some elses crime must be conditioned on the fact that you know the person would be a better person, truth be told the woman must have committed suicide because she got tired of the boys foolishness, the son is not foolish I could post a part two of the story and you would agree with me the boy is smart, he knows he will find another sucker to pay for his misdeeds, the woman should have know she had other kids to raise or in fact could have shown such love to an orphan who deserves it more . . . who knows ( but because she is short sighted the only sane decision which turned out extremely foolish was suicide), the woman if mentally balance would not act selfishly forgetting what is good for the society . . . but we know the logic you want to . . . anything is possible





You likened it to debt, the question remains how did woman ever became the boy's guarantor? the woman dying for someone that killed another is the height of stupidity any living human can exhibit, and from every indication your logic is muddled thinking, the son's was not indebted to the law, for debt can be paid by others, the son's life could not be replaced by another even in if they wanted to . . .




Umm I never said you did . . . i said the God you are assuming . . . [size=14pt]0f course avoiding the all too important question that is . . . what will stop God from being shiva, Vishna, or even Sango or any idol or even porridge?[/size] since god you have in mind can behave foolish in the name of love, why must only be man? Please simply answer the question in bold!



good you wrote "is similar", but not quite is . . . which God are you talking about? cause you cannot continue to bring an unknown character to this discourse every now and then . . . The same you that said God listens and communicate like human, is now troubled that God mode of justice is "similar to" that of human thus limiting God . . . as if humans have ever said let you good outweigh you evil and any crime you commit is forgiven and be admitted back to the society . . . truly we do not know how u come up with this fallacies indeed! You comments will always contradict each other because it is not the truth!



Yes, since selfless love to you can only be interpreted to mean dying for love in an unjust way . . .



How did it show God's love if I may ask!



Evidently we are not, you dancing between one God known to me and another you want me to believe, by ignoring God's different attribute and only interested selfless love (more like senseless love)

@Vedaxcool, apparently you are having difficulties making sense of selfless love. You are also accusing me of confusing God with something else other than God.
Please don't blame me because my confusion comes from your explanation of God. Let us look at your statements logically now shall we?

First of all, I am accepting that only one God exists, is eternal and perfect, the creator of everything. Now let us look at your description of His nature.


Premise 1. Allah is nothing like any of his creations

Premise 2. Allah has[b] some 99 attributes that make him Allah[/b] (of which you listed some of them)

The problem now is that those attributes you listed can be found in man too (only that in Allah, they are infinitely more perfected) this contradicts "nothing like any of his creation" because you have just presented 99 similarities.
The Allah in premise 1 is undefinable and has no attributes. In fact any attempt to describe him immediately nullifies him. Meanwhile the Allah in premise 2 is an infinitely powerful perfect version of man (of course without a human body).

Secondly, The attributes ascribed to him have some that are directly conflicting with each other and you have not shown me a way of reconciling them without them becoming imperfect in him e.g. justice vs mercy e.t.c.

The problem we are having is that whenever I point a flaw in premise 2, you point me to premise 1 and vice-versa so we keep going round in circles. I am not the one confusing different 'types' of God. The confusion originates from you.

Please make it clear to me, how does premise 1 follow with premise 2. Who exactly is Allah? This has been my question from the beginning.

How does one who is nothing like his creation come to have attributes that are found in his creation?


Clear this up for me and then perhaps we can move on to finding answers on other things we are unclear about without dancing round in circles

let me answer this question of Mr.Anony.and then answer me who made who and who is like who and for what reason:

Premise 1. Allah is nothing like any of his creations

Premise 2. Allah has some 99 attributes that make him Allah (of which you listed some of them)

God is all-merciful.is man all-merciful? no.is man merciful to some extent? yes.why?because God has blown His spirit into us and we are the ones who share of those His quality.

now can we say God shares anything with us or attribute? no.why? because while man is dependent upon God to be made in a certain way,God even with His merciful state is not like us.no one made God merciful,while man is made merciful.i hope you see the difference.what God has given man,while no one gave God,is even what makes man different from other creatures like animals.

Holy Quran 30:21
"And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquillity in them; and He placed between you love and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought".


so now do we say God is like us because He created us in a certain way? or are we t say we are the ones who reflect His divine qualities and should develop them?this even makes more sense when we examine this verse:

Holy Quran 91:7
"And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it,And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness,He has succeeded who purifies it,And he has failed who instills it [with corruption]".

the bottom line is God is unlike us in anyway you think because all good you think of in man that God has implanted in us,is in us because God made us.but God is unlike us because He got all this goodness without being made by anyone or anything.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, just satisfy my questions with suitable answers...........There's no need for all this accusation.
You seem to be so uncomfortable with questions.....it's not your style. You prefer claims and counter-claims so that you can shout me down with ad hominems. lol You are a funny fellow.

giving you answers is not a problem to me.but you're becoming increasingly boring with this your love argument and your insistent on it even after you have been provided with answers.i am sure after this thread you will still raise it up in another and another and another thread.that shows you do not seek answers or reasons but arguing to influence the thinking of others and instil your way of thinking no matter how ridiculous and irrational.

i sincerely pray that for once,the answers i have given to your question in my above post make sense to you.

Mr_Anony:
@Vedaxcool, apparently you are having difficulties making sense of selfless love. You are also accusing me of confusing God with something else other than God.
Please don't blame me because my confusion comes from your explanation of God. Let us look at your statements logically now shall we?

First of all, I am accepting that only one God exists, is eternal and perfect, the creator of everything. Now let us look at your description of His nature.


Premise 1. Allah is nothing like any of his creations

Premise 2. Allah has[b] some 99 attributes that make him Allah[/b] (of which you listed some of them)

The problem now is that those attributes you listed can be found in man too (only that in Allah, they are infinitely more perfected) this contradicts "nothing like any of his creation" because you have just presented 99 similarities.
The Allah in premise 1 is undefinable and has no attributes. In fact any attempt to describe him immediately nullifies him. Meanwhile the Allah in premise 2 is an infinitely powerful perfect version of man (of course without a human body).

Secondly, The attributes ascribed to him have some that are directly conflicting with each other and you have not shown me a way of reconciling them without them becoming imperfect in him e.g. justice vs mercy e.t.c.

The problem we are having is that whenever I point a flaw in premise 2, you point me to premise 1 and vice-versa so we keep going round in circles. I am not the one confusing different 'types' of God. The confusion originates from you.

Please make it clear to me, how does premise 1 follow with premise 2. Who exactly is Allah? This has been my question from the beginning.

How does one who is nothing like his creation come to have attributes that are found in his creation?


Clear this up for me and then perhaps we can move on to finding answers on other things we are unclear about without dancing round in circles

[b]It is apparently clear that you are simply avoiding question that would expose your flawed thinking, well that's a shame, literally taking us back and forth simply puts out every pretence of being "honesty" . . . I will give you a long rope to hang yourself eventually, keep dodging the questions, we will keep giving you answers, that you do not like the answer given, does not makes it any how no answer, your confusion stems from the fact that you have what you already want to believe, attributing your flawed concept of thinking to me is laughable and an abuse of the laws of logic and common-sense . . . You invented a lie that tied up selfless love with dying unjustly for someone . . . There is nothing like God because of his attributes, he sees all, nothing exist that can see everything, he hears all, nothing exist that can hear all, he knows everything, nothing exist taht can know everything, he is the just, no being on the world can ever deliver justice the way he does, he is merciful, no being on earth can show mercy as he does, he is Mighty, nothing exist that can be compared to his might, he is the creator, nothing exist that can create like he does, out of nothing he creates, he is the originator, nothing exist that can claim to have originated everything . . . this is as simple as it gets . . . [/b]

If I may, let me beg you, our Muslim friends, to stop treating my brother's question as a case or argument for anything. At worst, if you cannot avoid doing so, treat it as an investigation toward preparing an argument against your position. I believe that even that is advantageous to you because you can with a clear stating of what your position is, you could destroy the logical foundations of any argument against it.

I think that it is a grand opportunity for you, our friends, to clear up, once and for all, all the confusions that non-adherents of your faith have concerning it. So, please consider the opportunity presented as an opportunity for you not as an argument against you.

I may be considered partial in saying this, but, I have not seen any evidence that Mr Anony is presenting an argument against your position. He has not been making a case, he has only been running an investigation. If there is dishonesty in his approach, I believe that your answers to his questions will expose it beyond question.