vedaxcool:

He does not beget!

He is not unjust to his creation!

He acts in the way the befits his majesty!

and he does not contradicts his attributes listed earlier!

Thanks for clarifying, I'll come back to this as we move along.

tbaba1234:

My comment is quite straightforward, there are probably many things in the original torah still in the pentateuch but the fact is that the original scrolls given to Musa have been lost, there are many problems with the text you have. What you have was not written by Moses, even a jewish scriptural scholar will tell you that... There are many references to that: First of all, the death of moses, his burial and things after his death were spoken about.

Spinoza published a unified critical analysis demonstrating the problematic passages pervaded the text:


There were the third-person accounts of Moses, the statements that Moses was unlikely to have made (e.g., "humblest man on earth", the report of Moses' death, the expression "to this day," the references to geographical locales by names that they acquired after Moses' lifetime, the treatment of matters that were subsequent to Moses (e.g., the list of Edomite kings), and various contradictions and problems in the text of the sort that earlier investigators had observed. He also noted that the text says in Deuteronomy 34, "There never arose another prophet in Israel like Moses...." Spinoza remarked that these sound like the words of someone who live a long time after Moses and had the opportunity to see other prophets and thus make the comparison. (They also do not sound like the words of the humblest man on earth.) Spinoza wrote, "It is...clearer than the sun at noon that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses, but by someone who lived long after Moses." Spinoza was excommunicated from Judaism. Now his work was condemned by Catholics and Protestants as well. His book was placed on the Catholic Index, within six years thirty-seven edicts were issued against it, and an attempt was made on his life.


[20-21]

The scriptural integrity is compromised....

The nature of Allah has already been detailed by vedaxcool, I can not comment on what you call 'the torah' because quite frankly, it isn't, Maybe it has some aspects of the original torah but it isn't what was revealed to moses....

Allah is not subject to anything in the creation; He is above the Heavens; He has the power to actualise the every affair. His omnipotence can not be limited or shared, it also includes the impossibility of failure. He is nothing like his creation.

Any question that goes against this principle makes no sense, It is like “a circle triangle” or an “amphibian mammal”. To ask a question like does God do this even though it goes against his omnipotence is irrational and absurd... That is what ascribing a son to God, or a trinity is...

The God of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all) are one and the same... Indivisible,One.... Nothing comparable to Him...

The Quran as a book is beyond the productive capacity of humans, It is the only book that has been preserved since revelation, just like Allah promised.... I understand the direction of your questions but the proof of the Quran are just too many to waste time on these kinds of questions.... It confirms what is true in your bible... It is a stunning book:

If you have doubts about the revelation We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a single sura like it– enlist whatever supportersa you have other than God– if you truly [think you can]. 24 If you cannot do this– and you never will– then beware of the Fire prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men andstones.
(Surah 2:23-24)

We shall come to the Torah and the Quran in a bit but first, let us consider a few things about God's nature:-

@The highlighted: I agree that God cannot share His unlimited power and He cannot fail. Now pay attention to this:

1. I'll assume that you believe God has given man freewill (else he can't possibly command us to worship Him if he controls our wills) Do you agree?

2. Now God is all-holy and most pure. What do you believe is God's stance on sin? How does this tally with his mercifulness and justice?

3. Can Allah love selflessly? If yes, how?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odTyzaKYYd8&feature=related





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL0gFIXnhiE&feature=related

LagosShia:

before talking about the torah,as a trinitarian christian you need to do the following first:

1.) show us where in the old testament God promised to come down in human form through the womb of a woman.

2.) where in the old testament God is known as a triune God?

Hopefully, we shall come to that as we move along. Stay tuned. I don't want this thread to degenerate into a bible vs quran skirmish.

In the meantime you may want to look up Isaiah 9:6. however, I don't want to be drawn into a tangential argument for now.

Mr.Anony,

i think your initial question and the topic of the thread has already being answered.and you have even been presented with far more details,knowledge and info than you require.but obviously as usual,you are not after seeking knowledge.but you are after following a path of argument and debate in order to accustom people's ways of thinking and beliefs to yours no matter how ridiculous and nonsensical your pov's are based on my experience with you from the thread i earlier referred to.

Holy Quran 2:109
"Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent".

LagosShia: Mr.Anony,

i think your initial question and the topic of the thread has already being answered.and you have even been presented with far more details,knowledge and info than you require.but obviously as usual,you are not after seeking knowledge.but you are after following a path of argument and debate in order to accustom people's ways of thinking and beliefs to yours no matter how ridiculous and nonsensical your pov's are based on my experience with you from the thread i earlier referred to.

Holy Quran 2:109
"Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent".

If you are interested in dialogue, then let us dialogue. If on the other hand you just want me to accept what you say with no questions asked, then I'm afraid we are not on the same page. Your style is to shout other people down. Unfortunately, that's not how I roll.

Allah loves selflessly because either position of man; acceptance or rejection of the Orders of Allah, Allah gains nothing or loses nothing. It is the selfless Love that Allah has for man that made Him give the road map for success in The Quran and steers man away by it of His intent to punish disobedience, disobedient. Allah could just wipe out people, but He does not.

It is His selfless Love for man made Him say "The Merciful. . ." in the second verse of Surah Fatiha instead of saying the most harsh in punishment. When your parent punishes you, does he not love you still? Yet your parent punishes you for "wasting" his resources; money, time, etc. Even your mother who loves you in a normal sense more than your father is selfless by making sure your life is better than hers. Yet she will punish you when you extremely get out of expectation, out of line, in the hope you will correct yourself after and spare her the agony of having to have a bad child, now the possession of the mother because the father can say you are your mother's child and not his because the good behavior child is claimed by your dad, instead.

If you think your Lord who can punish you and any in past generations has much right to His Justice as your mother, then know that you are unjust to Him because He is the One Who gave the love in the heart of your mother to love you selflessly based on many factors, including the womb where you developed, a creation of God.

Finally, Allah is Loving, which is more than love. Loving possesses ultimate love, while love is what is possessed by Loving. Which do you think i higher; possession or the owner of the possession who controls the possession and may also have other possessions? Allah is The Kind and Forbearing and Always ready to accept repentance. These are some of His Qualities supporting His Mercy, Self Sufficiency and yes the Ability to be the Only One Who is Truly SELFLESS in each of what man can think of. He does not depend on anyone, anything to show extreme mercy. But taking advantage of Him so much that you disregard Him is evil that in any heart should be rejected and if He punishes such a soul, it is True Justice.

Mr_Anony:
If you are interested in dialogue, then let us dialogue. If on the other hand you just want me to accept what you say with no questions asked, then I'm afraid we are not on the same page. Your style is to shout other people down. Unfortunately, that's not how I roll.

if dialogue means trying to make others accustom their thinking to believing ridiculous things through brainwashing,and pretending to be asking questions to put forth comical reasoning then that is mockery.and i have had enough laughter with you in the other thread:
https://www.nairaland.com/995694/what-bible-say-muhammad/1

but if you seek,knowledge,then you're welcome.so far in this thread we have presented you with much info for you to answer your question in the OP.

Interesting. . .watching from the sides. . .for now

Ihedinobi: Interesting. . .watching from the sides. . .for now

you're pathetic.

are you jarus by any chance.

multiple id ?

tpia@:



you're pathetic.

are you jarus by any chance.

multiple id ?

hate for Jarus has led you to lynch your christian brother in public.

tpia@:



you're pathetic.

are you jarus by any chance.

multiple id ?

Lol, na wa for you oh

Sweetnecta: Allah loves selflessly because either position of man; acceptance or rejection of the Orders of Allah, Allah gains nothing or loses nothing. It is the selfless Love that Allah has for man that made Him give the road map for success in The Quran and steers man away by it of His intent to punish disobedience, disobedient. Allah could just wipe out people, but He does not.

It is His selfless Love for man made Him say "The Merciful. . ." in the second verse of Surah Fatiha instead of saying the most harsh in punishment. When your parent punishes you, does he not love you still? Yet your parent punishes you for "wasting" his resources; money, time, etc. Even your mother who loves you in a normal sense more than your father is selfless by making sure your life is better than hers. Yet she will punish you when you extremely get out of expectation, out of line, in the hope you will correct yourself after and spare her the agony of having to have a bad child, now the possession of the mother because the father can say you are your mother's child and not his because the good behavior child is claimed by your dad, instead.


If you think your Lord who can punish you and any in past generations has much right to His Justice as your mother, then know that you are unjust to Him because He is the One Who gave the love in the heart of your mother to love you selflessly based on many factors, including the womb where you developed, a creation of God.

Finally, Allah is Loving, which is more than love. Loving possesses ultimate love, while love is what is possessed by Loving. Which do you think i higher; possession or the owner of the possession who controls the possession and may also have other possessions? Allah is The Kind and Forbearing and Always ready to accept repentance. These are some of His Qualities supporting His Mercy, Self Sufficiency and yes the Ability to be the Only One Who is Truly SELFLESS in each of what man can think of. He does not depend on anyone, anything to show extreme mercy. But taking advantage of Him so much that you disregard Him is evil that in any heart should be rejected and if He punishes such a soul, it is True Justice.

From what I understand you are saying, Allah created love and made man selfless.
The thing is that love is not something one creates, it is more like an action or a state of being.
If you say that Allah created love, then love cannot really be one of his characteristics rather it'll be something that he made.

If Allah gains nothing and loses nothing by loving, it doesn't show that he loves selflessly. Wouldn't selfless love mean that Allah must be inconvenienced somehow?

Wasting of resources cannot apply to Allah because his resources are never depleted in any way. he can only punish you when you do not do his will but then his will is still all about himself.

Now I know Allah has it all so it would sound quite absurd for him to be inconvenienced but let me ask a hypothetical question; If a situation demanded that Allah give up his divinity for his creation, will he love his creation enough to do it?

If you think yes, then please state why. If you think no, also state why

LagosShia:

if dialogue means trying to make others accustom their thinking to believing ridiculous things through brainwashing,and pretending to be asking questions to put forth comical reasoning then that is mockery.and i have had enough laughter with you in the other thread:
https://www.nairaland.com/995694/what-bible-say-muhammad/1

but if you seek,knowledge,then you're welcome.so far in this thread we have presented you with much info for you to answer your question in the OP.

My friend, I do not see how a person can possibly be brainwashed by answering questions posed at him/her. You accuse me wrongly. I have little or no knowledge of Islam and I am asking questions as charitably as possible leaving room for detailed answers. If what you believe is true, then it shouldn't be hard fielding questions about it without mockery and trying to shout down the questioner. Not so?

Mr_Anony:
My friend, I do not see how a person can possibly be brainwashed by answering questions posed at him/her. You accuse me wrongly. I have little or no knowledge of Islam and I am asking questions as charitably as possible leaving room for detailed answers. If what you believe is true, then it shouldn't be hard fielding questions about it without mockery and trying to shout down the questioner. Not so?

Seconded!!!

Mr_Anony:
My friend, I do not see how a person can possibly be brainwashed by answering questions posed at him/her. You accuse me wrongly. I have little or no knowledge of Islam and I am asking questions as charitably as possible leaving room for detailed answers. If what you believe is true, then it shouldn't be hard fielding questions about it without mockery and trying to shout down the questioner. Not so?

ok.so are you satisfied with the answers given to you?

LagosShia:

ok.so are you satisfied with the answers given to you?

The answers have raised more questions

@Mr_Anony(m):

6:57pm

Sweetnecta: Allah loves selflessly because either position of man; acceptance or rejection of the Orders of Allah, Allah gains nothing or loses nothing. It is the selfless Love that Allah has for man that made Him give the road map for success in The Quran and steers man away by it of His intent to punish disobedience, disobedient. Allah could just wipe out people, but He does not.

It is His selfless Love for man made Him say "The Merciful. . ." in the second verse of Surah Fatiha instead of saying the most harsh in punishment. When your parent punishes you, does he not love you still? Yet your parent punishes you for "wasting" his resources; money, time, etc. Even your mother who loves you in a normal sense more than your father is selfless by making sure your life is better than hers. Yet she will punish you when you extremely get out of expectation, out of line, in the hope you will correct yourself after and spare her the agony of having to have a bad child, now the possession of the mother because the father can say you are your mother's child and not his because the good behavior child is claimed by your dad, instead.


If you think your Lord who can punish you and any in past generations has much right to His Justice as your mother, then know that you are unjust to Him because He is the One Who gave the love in the heart of your mother to love you selflessly based on many factors, including the womb where you developed, a creation of God.

Finally, Allah is Loving, which is more than love. Loving possesses ultimate love, while love is what is possessed by Loving. Which do you think i higher; possession or the owner of the possession who controls the possession and may also have other possessions? Allah is The Kind and Forbearing and Always ready to accept repentance. These are some of His Qualities supporting His Mercy, Self Sufficiency and yes the Ability to be the Only One Who is Truly SELFLESS in each of what man can think of. He does not depend on anyone, anything to show extreme mercy. But taking advantage of Him so much that you disregard Him is evil that in any heart should be rejected and if He punishes such a soul, it is True Justice.


From what I understand you are saying, Allah created love and made man selfless.

There is no place in the above where I say the bold. I said Allah is Loving, meaning Owner of Love itself. Hence, if mother is even to be selfless, which is impossible because human being has limitation, it is by the Will of Allah that such a temporary selfless love can occur. If there is selfless love, the Loving is the Only One that has it.

The thing is that love is not something one creates, it is more like an action or a state of being.

Allah puts love in the heart of the mother for the child, for example. Yet the greatest love that mother can show on the child is nothing compared than the Love the Loving showers on the creatures, man included.

If you say that Allah created love, then love cannot really be one of his characteristics rather it'll be something that he made.

The heart where love resides is created by Allah. And He is the One Who allows the heart to show the love. Owner of ultimate love, the purest of any love is The Loving.

If Allah gains nothing and loses nothing by loving, it doesn't show that he loves selflessly. Wouldn't selfless love mean that Allah must be inconvenienced somehow?

Selflessness in the eyes of man must consist of some suffering, inconvenience. This is not the case with Allah. Inconvenience is sign of struggle, etc and Allah does not struggle. Perfection does not diminish. Just because there is no loss or gain, it does not mean inconvenience must be present. No negative effect affects Allah. And Perfection does not increase in time or better by good effect because that will sign imperfection.

Wasting of resources cannot apply to Allah because his resources are never depleted in any way. he can only punish you when you do not do his will but then his will is still all about himself.

since He is Uniquely Ultimate and everyone answers to Him and He to no one, it is normal that it is all About Him. Are you suggesting that there must be shared uniquely ultimate "beings" Gods, as in Trinity? Allah is not that.

Now I know Allah has it all so it would sound quite absurd for him to be inconvenienced but let me ask a hypothetical question; If a situation demanded that Allah give up his divinity for his creation, will he love his creation enough to do it?

Why should Allah give up His Divinity to His creation? How many divine being do you expect to have in this case; unlimited, same as many as creations, same as many as humans, same as many as males, same as many as adults, same as a tribe, same as many as a city, same as many as a household, same as many as 7, 6, 5, 4, 3 or 2? Can you imagine the chaos and disorder that can occur between competing divine beings, one wanting to be Ultimate Divine Authority, Being, Allah? Alliances will be formed to checkmate and overcome divine being[s] rendering Him/them useless, in order to get to the Ultimate Goal: The Only God, Allah The Almighty? Do you think divine beings will want to go back to being ordinary being, that will be subject to the Authority of God that allows such a taste of Authority? These divine being will not want to die and will not have to beg to stay alive. Its interesting to note that the Bible says Jesus begged God, if your question is leading to trinity. I am already there with you.

If you think yes, then please state why. If you think no, also state why

the above provide is my explanation of no to giving up His Divinity because it is illogical and my saying it is needles to say that it relates to level of His Love, since there is a clear distinction between The One Creator, Allah and creation, the many creatures which are angels, jinns, mankind, animals, tress, others. If we don't expect man to give up his authority of dominance of animals to animals, so that animals now have the same power as man? If man will not do this to himself for animal, both creatures of God, I wonder how they think God will share His Position?

if i do not respond, it is not because i am ignoring you, but i am busy and definitely, it is ramadhan.

Mr_Anony:
We shall come to the Torah and the Quran in a bit but first, let us consider a few things about God's nature:-

@The highlighted: I agree that God cannot share His unlimited power and He cannot fail. Now pay attention to this:

1. I'll assume that you believe God has given man freewill (else he can't possibly command us to worship Him if he controls our wills) Do you agree?

2. Now God is all-holy and most pure. What do you believe is God's stance on sin? How does this tally with his mercifulness and justice?

3. Can Allah love selflessly? If yes, how?

Cut to the chase would you? and stop wasting time... You are angling towards how a blood sacrifice serves as God justice for humans since we are all sinful ... You are trying to build up an old christian argument argument that is inherently flawed and is bound to fail.... First let me address you questions in view of your already obvious direction...

1. No, God has given humans free choice not free will, Allah alone, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, "Free choice." The difference is that what Allah "Wills" always happens and what we choose may or may not happen. We are not being judged on the outcome of things, we are being judged on our choices. This means that at the core of everything will always be our intentions. Whatever we intended, is what we will have the reward for. Each person will be judged according to what Allah gave them to work with, how they used it and what they intended to do with it.

2. We view God in the context of all of his names... There is no name like the 'all holy'... It is 'The Holy', Refer to vedaxcool's attributes for God. The Muslim does not reduce God to parts, rather God is seen as one and unique in context of all his names and attributes.

In Islam, there are only two kinds of people

i. Those who will receive the mercy of God
ii. Those who will receive the Justice of God.

Those who obeyed and tried their best to stay on the straight path, Allah will blot out their shortcomings and they will be rewarded according to the best of their deeds... Like the Quran says:

But if you avoid the great sins you have been forbidden, We shall wipe out your minor misdeeds and let you in through the entrance of honour. (Surah 4:31)

It also says:

Whoever has done a good deed will have it ten times to his credit, but whoever has done a bad deed will be repaid only with its equivalent– they will not be wronged. (Surah 6:160)

These people will have a quick audit and will enter into the mercy of their lord. No one will enter the paradise without God's mercy.

Ii. Those who will get the Justice:

Anyone who is asked a question on the last day about his deeds is doomed.... This will be the position of those who blatantly disobeyed and rejected the message from their lord.

Of these people are those that associate partners with God...

The amount of time used to commit a sin does not show its value. For instance, i could inject a person with poison that kills him in 10 seconds... My action in that case does not deserve just a 10 second punishment... The significance of that action is much greater than the time it took...

Rejecting the right of someone is equal in degree to the right that was offended against.

For instance; If i lock someone up unjustly, i have impinged upon his rights. But if i kill that person that is a greater offense against his right...

God has the right to be worshipped alone because he is the infinite and unlimited creator.

To intend to associate partners to God is to intend to claim a limitation against his power and being. As ascribing equals to him will constitute a limit to his power.

Now tell me what do you think is the gravity of denigrating God from the infinite being to a finite one... What is the magnitude/ range between the finite and the infinite?

The gravity of this in the eyes of God is severe and extreme; It is so severe that it merits from God a perpetual punishment. Actually anything less than a perpetual punishment is unjust to God's right. The Quran says:

God does not forgive the joining of partners with Him: anything less than that He forgives to whoever He will, but anyone who joins partners with God has concocted a tremendous sin. (Surah 4:48)

Those who do not repent before dying have no chance to be with those who will receive God's mercy on the Day of recompense.

Jesus was only a man on a dot of a planet that is a dot on a galaxy that is a dot - the whole universe is a dot before Allah. And so, how could you believe that this is equal to the one who made the everything that exists?...

The creator is nothing compared to the creation, ascribing worship to any man or stone, is giving the attribute of the infinite to the finite... Thereby reducing the attribute of the infinite.

We already spoke of the absurdity earlier....

iii. I will speak in terms of mercy rather than love because this term is abused by christians. Id say this: God is extremely loving.... God's show of his love or mercy to his property (which is essentially what we are) is not in a way that that is meaningless...

The expression of God's love to creation is in a way that does not lead to a limitation or sharing of any of his attributes in any way... This is irrational and absurd as it is equivalent to saying “an all powerful being cannot be an all powerful being”!

God omnipotence as an attribute is his ability to actualise all affairs... If God wills a matter, all He says is 'Be and it is'. He doesn't need a blood sacrifice... The blood sacrifice itself is unjust and goes against the principle you are trying to build....

Imagine i am a teacher and one of my students commits a wrong, Do i punish the student or go and punish my child at home.... If i punish my child, i am unjust to that child


BE DIRECT WITH YOUR QUESTIONS; EVERYONE CAN SEE THE DIRECTION...

State your case and stop wasting time....

Sweetnecta: @Mr_Anony(m): There is no place in the above where I say the bold. I said Allah is Loving, meaning Owner of Love itself. Hence, if mother is even to be selfless, which is impossible because human being has limitation, it is by the Will of Allah that such a temporary selfless love can occur. If there is selfless love, the Loving is the Only One that has it.

My apologies for misreading you, I assumed you were implying that Allah created love when you said he makes people love. Something else I can't seem quite clear about though is that you seem to be implying here that selfless love doesn't really exist amongst humans. We can talk more on this later.

Allah puts love in the heart of the mother for the child, for example. Yet the greatest love that mother can show on the child is nothing compared than the Love the Loving showers on the creatures, man included. The heart where love resides is created by Allah. And He is the One Who allows the heart to show the love. Owner of ultimate love, the purest of any love is The Loving.

A mother can die for her child. If Allah put that love in the heart of the mother, doesn't this suggest that he is capable of more than that? i.e hypothetically speaking, it is not against God's nature to die for His creation. Don't you agree?

Selflessness in the eyes of man must consist of some suffering, inconvenience. This is not the case with Allah. Inconvenience is sign of struggle, etc and Allah does not struggle. Perfection does not diminish. Just because there is no loss or gain, it does not mean inconvenience must be present. No negative effect affects Allah. And Perfection does not increase in time or better by good effect because that will sign imperfection.

Inconvenience must not necessarily be a sign of struggle especially when it is willfully accepted. I agree that God is perfect and perfection does not diminish however it depends on the things God is perfect in because to be perfect in one thing means to be totally imperfect in it's opposite. Now on the issue of perfect love, would it not be evidenced by perfect selflessness?
For instance when you say God is perfectly just and also perfectly merciful, doesn't it follow that whenever God shows mercy He withholds justice by not giving evil it's due reward? (by the way, this is another dilemma that we can treat further down the line)

since He is Uniquely Ultimate and everyone answers to Him and He to no one, it is normal that it is all About Him. Are you suggesting that there must be shared uniquely ultimate "beings" Gods, as in Trinity? Allah is not that.

Misconception; the Trinity is not Gods but one God (hopefully we'll get to that in due time). I am not suggesting anything be shared rather I am a bit puzzled. Since Allah didn't create love per say but love is one of his characteristics, and also if his love is not selfish but indeed pure and selfless; Who then - other than himself - was Allah loving before the onset of creation?

Why should Allah give up His Divinity to His creation? How many divine being do you expect to have in this case; unlimited, same as many as creations, same as many as humans, same as many as males, same as many as adults, same as a tribe, same as many as a city, same as many as a household, same as many as 7, 6, 5, 4, 3 or 2? Can you imagine the chaos and disorder that can occur between competing divine beings, one wanting to be Ultimate Divine Authority, Being, Allah? Alliances will be formed to checkmate and overcome divine being[s] rendering Him/them useless, in order to get to the Ultimate Goal: The Only God, Allah The Almighty? Do you think divine beings will want to go back to being ordinary being, that will be subject to the Authority of God that allows such a taste of Authority? These divine being will not want to die and will not have to beg to stay alive. Its interesting to note that the Bible says Jesus begged God, if your question is leading to trinity. I am already there with you.

erhm....I thought the premise was that Allah was the only ultimate authority and didn't co-exist with other deities. besides, the question was posed hypothetically so please you can answer hypothetically. As for Trinity, don't jump the gun. Perhaps we'll end up there or perhaps we won't. For now let's just follow the argument step by step.

the above provide is my explanation of no to giving up His Divinity because it is illogical and my saying it is needles to say that it relates to level of His Love, since there is a clear distinction between The One Creator, Allah and creation, the many creatures which are angels, jinns, mankind, animals, tress, others. If we don't expect man to give up his authority of dominance of animals to animals, so that animals now have the same power as man? If man will not do this to himself for animal, both creatures of God, I wonder how they think God will share His Position?

Same as above it was a hypothethical question; Please answer as such.
for example "hypothetically. if I loved my cat very much and the only way to save it from a certain disease was to give up my manhood, I could"
So again: Hypothetically, Is God's love for man strong enough that He can momentarily suspend His divinity for man?

Sweetnecta: if i do not respond, it is not because i am ignoring you, but i am busy and definitely, it is ramadhan.

Ok

Mr_Anony:
My apologies for misreading you, I assumed you were implying that Allah created love when you said he makes people love. Something else I can't seem quite clear about though is that you seem to be implying here that selfless love doesn't really exist amongst humans. We can talk more on this later.


A mother can die for her child. If Allah put that love in the heart of the mother, doesn't this suggest that he is capable of more than that? i.e hypothetically speaking, it is not against God's nature to die for His creation. Don't you agree?


Inconvenience must not necessarily be a sign of struggle especially when it is willfully accepted. I agree that God is perfect and perfection does not diminish however it depends on the things God is perfect in because to be perfect in one thing means to be totally imperfect in it's opposite. Now on the issue of perfect love, would it not be evidenced by perfect selflessness?
For instance when you say God is perfectly just and also perfectly merciful, doesn't it follow that whenever God shows mercy He withholds justice by not giving evil it's due reward? (by the way, this is another dilemma that we can treat further down the line)



Misconception; the Trinity is not Gods but one God (hopefully we'll get to that in due time). I am not suggesting anything be shared rather I am a bit puzzled. Since Allah didn't create love per say but love is one of his characteristics, and also if his love is not selfish but indeed pure and selfless; Who then - other than himself - was Allah loving before the onset of creation?



erhm....I thought the premise was that Allah was the only ultimate authority and didn't co-exist with other deities. besides, the question was posed hypothetically so please you can answer hypothetically. As for Trinity, don't jump the gun. Perhaps we'll end up there or perhaps we won't. For now let's just follow the argument step by step.


Same as above it was a hypothethical question; Please answer as such.
for example "hypothetically. if I loved my cat very much and the only way to save it from a certain disease was to give up my manhood, I could"
So again: Hypothetically, Is God's love for man strong enough that He can momentarily suspend His divinity for man?

With you, bro.

tbaba1234:

Cut to the chase would you? and stop wasting time... You are angling towards how a blood sacrifice serves as God justice for humans since we are all sinful ... You are trying to build up an old christian argument argument that is inherently flawed and is bound to fail.... First let me address you questions in view of your already obvious direction...

1. No, God has given humans free choice not free will, Allah alone, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, "Free choice." The difference is that what Allah "Wills" always happens and what we choose may or may not happen. We are not being judged on the outcome of things, we are being judged on our choices. This means that at the core of everything will always be our intentions. Whatever we intended, is what we will have the reward for. Each person will be judged according to what Allah gave them to work with, how they used it and what they intended to do with it.

2. In Islam, there are only two kinds of people

i. Those who will receive the mercy of God
ii. Those who will receive the Justice of God.

Those who obeyed and tried their best to stay on the straight path, Allah will blot out their shortcomings and they will be rewarded according to the best of their deeds... Like the Quran says:

But if you avoid the great sins you have been forbidden, We shall wipe out your minor misdeeds and let you in through the entrance of honour. (Surah 4:31)

It also says:

Whoever has done a good deed will have it ten times to his credit, but whoever has done a bad deed will be repaid only with its equivalent– they will not be wronged. (Surah 6:160)

These people will have a quick audit and will enter into the mercy of their lord. No one will enter the paradise without God's mercy.

Ii. Those who will get the Justice:

Anyone who is asked a question on the last days about his deeds is doomed.... This will be the position of those who blatantly disobeyed and rejected the message from their lord.

Of these people are those that associate partners with God...

The amount of time used to commit a sin does not show its value. For instance, i could inject a person with poison that kills him in 10 seconds... My action in that case does not deserve just a 10 second punishment... The significance of that action is much greater than the time it took...

Rejecting the right of someone is equal in degree to the right that was offended against.

For instance; If i lock someone up unjustly, i have impinged upon his rights. But if i kill that person that is a greater offense against his right...

God has the right to be worshipped alone because he is the infinite and unlimited creator.

To intend to associate partners to God is to intend to claim a limitation against his power and being. As ascribing equals to him will constitute a limit to his power.

Now tell me what do you think is the gravity of denigrating God from the infinite being to a finite one... What is the magnitude/ range between the finite and the infinite?

The gravity of this in the eyes of God is severe and extreme; It is so severe that it merits from God a perpetual punishment. Actually anything less than a perpetual punishment is unjust to God's right. The Quran says:

God does not forgive the joining of partners with Him: anything less than that He forgives to whoever He will, but anyone who joins partners with God has concocted a tremendous sin. (Surah 4:48)

Those who do not repent before dying have no chance to be with those who will receive God's mercy on the Day of recompense.

Jesus was only a man on a dot of a planet that is a dot on a galaxy that is a dot - the whole universe is a dot before Allah. And so, how could you believe that this is equal to the one who made the everything that exist?...

The creator is nothing compared to the creation, ascribing worship to any man, stone, is giving the attribute of the infinite to the finite... Thereby reducing the attribute of the infinite.

We already spoke of the absurdity earlier....

iii. I will speak in terms of mercy rather than love because this term is abused by christians. Id say this: God is extremely loving.... God's show of his love or mercy to his property (which is essentially what we are) is not in a way that that is meaningless...

This expression of God's love to creation is in a way that does not in any way lead to a limitation or sharing of any of his attributes... This is irrational and absurd as it is equivalent to saying “an all powerful being cannot be an all powerful being”!

God omnipotence as an attribute is his ability to actualise all affairs... If God wills a matter, all He says is 'Be and it is'. He doesn't need a blood sacrifice... The blood sacrifice itself is unjust....


BE DIRECT WITH YOUR QUESTIONS; EVERYONE CAN SEE THE DIRECTION...

State your case and stop wasting time....

The reason why I prefer using questions like this is so that you can build your case properly. If we don't do it this way, we'll just end up shooting bible and quranic verses at each other and eventually we'll exchange insults and leave to meet another day and do much the same. So if you don't mind, let us continue. If you hate having to answer questions about your faith (questions which for the most part I have left open ended and as unguided as possible) then by all means, politely refuse to answer and I'll leave it at that.
Continuing...........
For number 1: about free choice vs free will, I think I can agree with you in principle.

For number 2: about justice and mercy, you seem to be implying that they are opposite sides of the same coin, they aren't. Justice demands that evil be punished while mercy says that a person who deserves punishment is forgiven. In both cases, the person is evil and deserves punishment.
It is only when a person is perfectly good that neither justice or mercy need apply because then it will be a deserved reward or wages. Compare (a) and (b) and please clarify.

(a) Now if Allah is absolutely good, then it should follow that he must detest evil no matter how small, so if Allah has mercy on some and punishes others just because he chooses, wouldn't it imply that Allah is partial and therefore unjust? Especially since there is no penalty to be paid to blot out evil and sins are blotted out based solely on Allah's decision.
(b) Also I am quite puzzled about system of good weighed against bad because, it makes life sort of a game of points and doesn't quite identify evil for what it really is. Doesn't it somehow undermine God's mercy? Wouldn't it mean that people are going to paradise not because Allah is merciful but because they have done enough good to deserve paradise? If this is the case, Allah's mercy would be unnecessary as your points would get you into paradise also, it would mean Allah will have to tolerate some evil.

Now tell me what do you think is the gravity of denigrating God from the infinite being to a finite one... What is the magnitude/ range between the finite and the infinite?

Jesus was only a man on a dot of a planet that is a dot on a galaxy that is a dot - the whole universe is a dot before Allah. And so, how could you believe that this is equal to the one who made the everything that exist?...

About Jesus and the Trinity, I am not ignoring these questions, hopefully we will get back to touch on them as we continue, for now I am more concerned with clarifying the exact nature of Allah's justice system and how they tally with his attributes.

For number 3: about Allah's selfless love, it is interesting you chose to point to his mercy instead but the thing about mercy is that mercy doesn't point to selfless love. It is also interesting that you refer to us as God's property which I agree with but I think in this context, it makes Allah's selfless love more unlikely. I follow when you say that an all-powerful being not being all powerful.
But would you agree that an all powerful being can decide not to exercise it's power in certain instances so that it appears not to possess such power?

For the last part about blood sacrifice, I think you are trying to second-guess my direction and it is unhelpful in this argument, let us just walk step by step. My aim for now believe it or not is to get a clear picture of Allah. We can talk about blood sacrifice further down the line.

It is interesting that while you think I'm heading towards blood sacrifice, someone else is thinking I'm heading towards trinity. lol let's just discuss shall we?

Mr_Anony:
The answers have raised more questions

i dont think it is answers you're looking for nor knowledge or guidance.

Holy Quran 2:120
"And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper".

by Mr_Anony(m): 10:57pm

A mother can die for her child. If Allah put that love in the heart of the mother, doesn't this suggest that he is capable of more than that? i.e hypothetically speaking, it is not against God's nature to die for His creation. Don't you agree?

But God does not die. Limitation of life make creation, mother dies. The Owner of Life is the Owner of Death. He exists forever and death does not come to Him. The capability of God is more than that of mother and it does not involve death because God can command disease to leave the body of a person. He can command death to not come to a person until later time. All of these about God are signs of His being in control while the mother depends on Him. Or you have not heard a mother pray to God to make it easy for her child?

Inconvenience must not necessarily be a sign of struggle especially when it is willfully accepted. I agree that God is perfect and perfection does not diminish however it depends on the things God is perfect in because to be perfect in one thing means to be totally imperfect in it's opposite. Now on the issue of perfect love, would it not be evidenced by perfect selflessness?
For instance when you say God is perfectly just and also perfectly merciful, doesn't it follow that whenever God shows mercy He withholds justice by not giving evil it's due reward? (by the way, this is another dilemma that we can treat further down the line)

God commands everything into existence. Whatever imposes on Himself, is solely of His Own Will and will not be disagreeing with the unique quality that He is the Only One that has this "Unique Quality" because He is The Creator. When Perfect Love is in play from God, Perfect hate from Him is kept away from the scenario. Love is the opposite of Hate. Both, God has Perfectly: Justice and Mercy are another. Just because one is displayed perfectly does not mean the opposite of it will be imperfect. Each is displayed perfectly in its perfect place and form. Your "giving evil its due reward" is "giving the devil its due reward" or what? Whatever you mean, it is not applicable to Islamic God Who does not struggle with the devil or regrets anything or action.

Misconception; the Trinity is not Gods but one God (hopefully we'll get to that in due time). I am not suggesting anything be shared rather I am a bit puzzled. Since Allah didn't create love per say but love is one of his characteristics, and also if his love is not selfish but indeed pure and selfless; Who then - other than himself - was Allah loving before the onset of creation?

A quality does not have to be actualize if the object to show it on is not there. Just like Allah was already a creator before He created the first of His creations, Allah was The Loving before He showed the first loved creature His Love. A man who can be a father has all the quality that make him a father before he becomes a father for the first time.

erhm....I thought the premise was that Allah was the only ultimate authority and didn't co-exist with other deities. besides, the question was posed hypothetically so please you can answer hypothetically. As for Trinity, don't jump the gun. Perhaps we'll end up there or perhaps we won't. For now let's just follow the argument step by step.

Allah is The Only Ultimate Authority and does not have diety. I simply kill your idea by being realistic and I do not deal in hypothesis when it comes to God, The Reality. Muslims talks reality when it comes to God and no room for error.

Same as above it was a hypothethical question; Please answer as such.
for example "hypothetically. if I loved my cat very much and the only way to save it from a certain disease was to give up my manhood, I could"
So again: Hypothetically, Is God's love for man strong enough that He can momentarily suspend His divinity for man?

if you give your manhood, you can not get it back. God is not a Being that fluctuates, though He is able to do all things, He however restricts Himself from doing things that are not befitting to God. So reality is that God Who can singly command wholesale forgiveness does not have to ungodly become non unique because he wants to give a means of forgiveness, while He is The One that Forgives as the Forgiver, Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. Who will ask Him if He wipe off Hell, put everyone in Paradise, wipe off Paradise or put everyone in Hell? It is divine Justice fro Him that we know there is ultimate punishment in Hell and ultimate mercy in Paradise by Forgiving sins. And you can be sick just like the cat. You are limited just like the cat. God does not have limitation and does not get see.

It is interesting that while you think I'm heading towards blood sacrifice, someone else is thinking I'm heading towards trinity. lol let's just discuss shall we?

for christians blood sacrifice and trinity are together because at the end they claim that Jesus is God in Trinity and Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.

One may just ask why killing a human being when killing of animals is frowned upon? why is 3 entities have to be God each, when 1 ultimate God is enough to be God and control all affairs?

@ Mr Anony,
if you believe your religion is right and others are wrong, why do you think muslims cant also believe their religion is right and others are wrong too?
See what it means to hold on tightly to one's belief and close eyes to other voices like you had been doing.
I guess this is your first time of intellectually engaging a knowledgeable muslim, wait till you meet another knowledgeable buddhist and you will see what i've been telling you all along.
Best wishes, good friend.

Mr_Anony: The reason why I prefer using questions like this is so that you can build your case properly. If we don't do it this way, we'll just end up shooting bible and quranic verses at each other and eventually we'll exchange insults and leave to meet another day and do much the same. So if you don't mind, let us continue. If you hate having to answer questions about your faith (questions which for the most part I have left open ended and as unguided as possible) then by all means, politely refuse to answer and I'll leave it at that.
Continuing...........

If you ask questions with a will to learn then by all means... The information you require has already been provided... Cut to the chase... Present your case...
It doesn't take much to show the lack of logic in it. Then the thread can die a natural death.

For number 2: about justice and mercy, you seem to be implying that they are opposite sides of the same coin, they aren't. Justice demands that evil be punished while mercy says that a person who deserves punishment is forgiven. In both cases, the person is evil and deserves punishment.
It is only when a person is perfectly good that neither justice or mercy need apply because then it will be a deserved reward or wages. Compare (a) and (b) and please clarify.

(a) Now if Allah is absolutely good, then it should follow that he must detest evil no matter how small, so if Allah has mercy on some and punishes others just because he chooses, wouldn't it imply that Allah is partial and therefore unjust? Especially since there is no penalty to be paid to blot out evil and sins are blotted out based solely on Allah's decision.
(b) Also I am quite puzzled about system of good weighed against bad because, it makes life sort of a game of points and doesn't quite identify evil for what it really is. Doesn't it somehow undermine God's mercy? Wouldn't it mean that people are going to paradise not because Allah is merciful but because they have done enough good to deserve paradise? If this is the case, Allah's mercy would be unnecessary as your points would get you into paradise also, it would mean Allah will have to tolerate some evil.

Muslims do not only believe that God is just good and omnipotent. Muslims believe that part of God’s names and attributes include ‘the Just’, ‘the Severe in Punishment’, ‘the Wise’, ‘the Avenger’, and ‘the Compassionate’, amongst many others. We do not reduce God to parts, rather God is seen as one and unique in context of all his names and attributes. So if God was just good and omnipotent, then there may be problem in reconciling suffering and evil in the world.

Also, in Islamic theology ‘good’ as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature. Therefore the underlying assumption that evil and a good God cannot coexist may be true with a Christian view of God, that is why many christians find it difficult to reconcile evil in the world.

Since that has cleared up, Allah has free will, He grants his mercy to whom he wills...He punishes who he wills... No one will make paradise without his mercy, not even the prophets (Peace be on them all)and that includes Jesus (Peace be upon him).... Every one enters only as a mercy from Allah but they must have done their best and put in the effort... Allah blot out all of their shortcomings and admits them into his paradise, the wiping off of their sins is the mercy... The attribute of mercy is exhibited here (no need for blood sacrifices)....No one's good deeds alone will grant them paradise, No one... Anyone who thinks his good deeds alone will give him paradise has displayed arrogance and no one with arrogance in their heart will enter paradise.

Justice in the hereafter

Humans are imperfect, to say a human is evil just because of his shortcomings is ludicrous. Allah created us this way and it does not indicate inherent evil. Those that are inherently evil will face the justise. Those who strived but had shortcomings would have their sin wiped out... True justice is recognising those mitigating circumstances. True Justice is based on the following conditions in the hereafter...

For fairness, four conditions must be satisfied,

i. The human must be aware of the gravity of his action to some extent.

ii. The human held accountable must be from their own choices.

iii. The humans agree to undertake the trial of fulfilling their purpose (this is not a necessary condition though)

iv. Mitigating circumstances should be taken into consideration. Like Allah says:

God does not burden any soul with more than it can bear: each gains whatever good it has done, and suffers its bad–‘ (Surah 2:286)

Lets address the issues one by one:

i. The human must be aware of the gravity of his action to some extent.

Allah says in the Quran:

“… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15]

‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’

A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of disbelief. If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection.

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly.

ii. We are held accountable for our choices:

Humans have the choice to do good or evil, Now, if we were compelled to do one or the other, that will be unfair...

iii. The humans agree to undertake the trial of fulfilling their purpose.

In the Quran, Mankind's ruh (usually translated as souls) had accepted the responsibility to fulfill his purpose before he was put on the earth.

We offered the Trust [Of reason and moral responsibility] to the heavens, the earth, and the mountains, yet they refused to undertake it and were afraid of it; mankind undertook it– they have always been inept and foolish. God will punish the hypocrites and the idolaters, both men and women, and turn with mercy to the believers, both men and women: God is most forgiving, most merciful. (Surah 33 72-73)

[Prophet], when your Lord took out the offspring from the loins of the Children of Adam and made them bear witness about themselves, He said, ‘Am I not your Lord?’ and they replied, ‘Yes, we bear witness.’ So you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, ‘We were not aware of this,’ or, ‘It was our forefathers who, before us, ascribed partners to God, and we are only the descendants who came after them: will you destroy us because of falsehoods they invented?’ In this way We explain the messages, so that they may turn [to the right path]. (Surah 7: 172-174)

We have an innate disposition to God (Called the fitrah in Islam), that is why humans throughout history have almost always worshipped God or some kind of diety.

So mankind accepted the trust and therefore accepted the responsibility that came with it. Bliss in the case of obedience, Punishment in the case of disobedience.

iv. Mitigating circumstances:

What if your environment and human nature causes us to slip not in an act of wilful disobedience? Allah shows his mercy:

Whoever has done a good deed will have it ten times to his credit, but whoever has done a bad deed will be repaid only with its equivalent– they will not be wronged. (Surah 6:160)

So every good deed we do is multiplied by 10 and our evil actions only get 1, according to the deed.

We are also told in the traditions that God would show 99 times more mercy to us on the day of resurrection that has ever existed in this world... Think of all the mercy that has existed in our world; in human and animal life... Allah would reward us according to the best of our deeds

Surah 29
7. Those who believe and work righteous deeds,- from them shall We blot out all evil [that may be] in them, and We shall reward them according to the best of their deeds

To think that believing in a unjust blood sacrifice is your salvation and balances the scales of Justice makes no sense.... The Justice of Islam is so beautiful and well rounded..

Life is a test for us Humans and only those that are strive in the way of Allah and receive His mercy will make paradise... Every single act we do is recorded.....

About Jesus and the Trinity, I am not ignoring these questions, hopefully we will get back to touch on them as we continue, for now I am more concerned with clarifying the exact nature of Allah's justice system and how they tally with his attributes.

For number 3: about Allah's selfless love, it is interesting you chose to point to his mercy instead but the thing about mercy is that mercy doesn't point to selfless love. It is also interesting that you refer to us as God's property which I agree with but I think in this context, it makes Allah's selfless love more unlikely. I follow when you say that an all-powerful being not being all powerful.
But would you agree that an all powerful being can decide not to exercise it's power in certain instances so that it appears not to possess such power?

For the last part about blood sacrifice, I think you are trying to second-guess my direction and it is unhelpful in this argument, let us just walk step by step. My aim for now believe it or not is to get a clear picture of Allah. We can talk about blood sacrifice further down the line.

You brought about 'selfless love' again... Where did get that from? .... Refer to the attributes by vedaxcool...

But would you agree that an all powerful being can decide not to exercise it's power in certain instances so that it appears not to possess such power?

No. You are bringing "circle triangles' again... The omnipotent giving up his power or appearing powerless means He is no longer omnipotent, .... It is as simple as that....So God being able to “give up his power or to appear powerless” actually describes an affair that is impossible and meaningless.... Such statements describe nothing at all and have no informative value, they are meaningless. So why should we even answer a question that has no meaning? To put it bluntly the question is not even a question.

Allah is in full control of all things all the time every time, not a leaf falls from a tree without His knowledege. That is omnipotence.

Go to your point... So far, with all due repect, you are building a very poor case... Blood sacrifice or Trinity. Not even your scholars can explain trinity... It would interesting to see what you come up with... Please do not bring an egg analogy or water analogy because they do not fit into your concept. They are probably some of the poorest attempts at explaining the absurdity.

I think this is my last post on this thread, Unless you bring something interesting...

If you truly want to learn about Islam, read the translation of the Quran...

http://asadullahali.files./2010/09/the_quran.pdf

When you read the Quran, we can have a more useful discussion...

Enjoy your day...
Safe.

@Sweetnecta, thanks for at least walking with me step by step. I'll continue however

Sweetnecta: by Mr_Anony(m): 10:57pm
But God does not die. Limitation of life make creation, mother dies. The Owner of Life is the Owner of Death. He exists forever and death does not come to Him. The capability of God is more than that of mother and it does not involve death because God can command disease to leave the body of a person. He can command death to not come to a person until later time. All of these about God are signs of His being in control while the mother depends on Him. Or you have not heard a mother pray to God to make it easy for her child?

The question posed was a hypothetical question which was used in an attempt to ascertain God's loving nature. You have deliberately chosen to sidestep it. Note it is an "if" question.

"I know full well that God cannot die but if God could die would he love us enough to die for us?"

If you feel uncomfortable answering this question, it is either you are afraid that you will have to admit that hypothetically he could or you are afraid that by answering it at all(even hypothetically), you will be somehow blaspheming. The both I believe to be true, the latter more so but we will get to that in a bit later.

The problem however is that your reluctance to answer the question puts a limit to Allah's love in my mind. I cannot ascribe perfect love to him if by nature of his being almighty, he is incapable of showing it. I'll leave it at that and I won't push it much further.

God commands everything into existence. Whatever imposes on Himself, is solely of His Own Will and will not be disagreeing with the unique quality that He is the Only One that has this "Unique Quality" because He is The Creator. When Perfect Love is in play from God, Perfect hate from Him is kept away from the scenario. Love is the opposite of Hate. Both, God has Perfectly: Justice and Mercy are another. Just because one is displayed perfectly does not mean the opposite of it will be imperfect. Each is displayed perfectly in its perfect place and form. Your "giving evil its due reward" is "giving the devil its due reward" or what? Whatever you mean, it is not applicable to Islamic God Who does not struggle with the devil or regrets anything or action.

Now I want you to notice something here; I assumed that Allah created love and you corrected me that he is the owner of love i.e. love is one of his characteristics. My contention now is that no one can exhibit perfect love and then switch it off and exhibit perfect hate. This is a contradiction of personality. The only way this is possible is if the person creates both love and hate i.e. they are subject to him in which case they will not be his attributes but properties he creates at which point the being cannot be said to be loving.
So I am confused here, you cannot have it both ways it is either love is a creation of Allah or it is his character. Unique as he may be, he cannot contradict his personality else he nullifies himself. If you truly believe that because Allah is unique, he can exhibit perfect love and perfect hate, then you must agree that he can equally exhibit perfect immortality and perfect mortality if he chooses to (and I know you don't agree to this).
The reason I wanted to start by having you guys list Allah's attributes was so that I can follow your premises logically and not attack strawmen.

A quality does not have to be actualize if the object to show it on is not there. Just like Allah was already a creator before He created the first of His creations, Allah was The Loving before He showed the first loved creature His Love. A man who can be a father has all the quality that make him a father before he becomes a father for the first time.

Good answer, now my little contention. Remember we are talking about perfect love. A man who becomes a father for the first time cannot be a perfect father because he is totally inexperienced. Perfection follows from prior experience. You cannot know the taste of chicken if you have never tasted it before.
Now if the first time Allah loved was at the onset of creation, then love was a new experience to him hence he cannot have perfect love. The only way it is possible for him to have perfect love is if he created love but this would mean that he is not loving by nature but love is something he produced from himself which would in turn mean that he cannot be selfless and has blessed human beings with a quality he doesn't possess. You see your dilemma?

Allah is The Only Ultimate Authority and does not have diety. I simply kill your idea by being realistic and I do not deal in hypothesis when it comes to God, The Reality. Muslims talks reality when it comes to God and no room for error.

Well said, I have let go of that hypothetical question but remember, leaving that question unanswered leaves many knots untied and takes us further and further away from a meaningful conclusion.

if you give your manhood, you can not get it back. God is not a Being that fluctuates, though He is able to do all things, He however restricts Himself from doing things that are not befitting to God. So reality is that God Who can singly command wholesale forgiveness does not have to ungodly become non unique because he wants to give a means of forgiveness, while He is The One that Forgives as the Forgiver, Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. Who will ask Him if He wipe off Hell, put everyone in Paradise, wipe off Paradise or put everyone in Hell? It is divine Justice fro Him that we know there is ultimate punishment in Hell and ultimate mercy in Paradise by Forgiving sins. And you can be sick just like the cat. You are limited just like the cat. God does not have limitation and does not get see.

I follow what you are saying and I agree that God has the right to do and undo if He chooses and we are nothing to question Him. All I am saying - and I believe you will agree - is that God has a definite character from which He must not contradict. For instance if I say God is perfectly good, it means that God cannot be perfectly evil. If God exhibits both characters, then He is neither good nor evil. We are not arguing about God's rights but His character

I like when you say that God does not fluctuate. The problem now lies in when you say that a God who is most-holy will tolerate unholiness because He is merciful and then punish unholiness because he is just. This shows a fluctuating God, If you agree to this, then I fail to see why you don't agree that an all-powerful God also has the right to choose to limit His power and allow himself to be seemingly powerless momentarily.
Note, I am not saying that God does not have such rights, all I am saying is that God's character must be steadfast. There must be a way to reconcile God's character with his rights; this you have not shown.

Sweetnecta: for christians blood sacrifice and trinity are together because at the end they claim that Jesus is God in Trinity and Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.

One may just ask why killing a human being when killing of animals is frowned upon? why is 3 entities have to be God each, when 1 ultimate God is enough to be God and control all affairs?

We will talk about trinity and blood sacrifice in due time. I will answer in due time but I want us to work out the exact character of God first then we will move on to whether it contradicts God's nature or not. If you can explain God's nature such that it is non-contradictory, then I'll let it be and we may just have to do away with trinity.

A few small misconceptions I want to clear are 1. I don't know of God frowning upon the killing of animals and 2. The three "entities" are not God each, are not parts of God but God (singular). I don't believe in 3 gods, I believe in one God.

For now let's not jump the gun let's keep working step by step.

cyrexx: @ Mr Anony,
if you believe your religion is right and others are wrong, why do you think muslims cant also believe their religion is right and others are wrong too?
See what it means to hold on tightly to one's belief and close eyes to other voices like you had been doing.
I guess this is your first time of intellectually engaging a knowledgeable muslim, wait till you meet another knowledgeable buddhist and you will see what i've been telling you all along.
Best wishes, good friend.

Erhm.....my friend I am not religious, I'm a christian. So far, I don't think these guys are being close minded so to speak and this is partly because I am not proposing anything yet but asking them to explain to me the true nature of God. The problem with "religious arguments" is that both sides usually hold obstinately to opposite positions and then fire insults at each other (and this includes atheists and agnostics).

I like using logical questions because it allows me to tackle the core of a view. I believe in rational faith, the problem arises when someone asserts a belief but then tries to divorce himself from the logical consequences of that belief that's when you have a case of blind faith.

If your belief is true, then it must be logically defensible. If an atheist says there is no God, then he must give a perfect explanation for all existence. If a theist says that there is God then he must explain the nature of God. If an agnostic says there is probably God or probably not God, then he is ignorant.

I am not guilty of what you accuse me of.

61. Mr_Anony(m
The question posed was a hypothetical question which was used in an attempt to ascertain God's loving nature. You have deliberately chosen to sidestep it. Note it is an "if" question.

"I know full well that God cannot die but if God could die would he love us enough to die for us?"

If you feel uncomfortable answering this question, it is either you are afraid that you will have to admit that hypothetically he could or you are afraid that by answering it at all(even hypothetically), you will be somehow blaspheming. The both I believe to be true, the latter more so but we will get to that in a bit later.

The problem however is that your reluctance to answer the question puts a limit to Allah's love in my mind. I cannot ascribe perfect love to him if by nature of his being almighty, he is incapable of showing it. I'll leave it at that and I won't push it much further.

God can not die for any reason, whether out love or out mans' owm cruelty, it is not just possible, because God is the Wise, his wisdom supersedes any logic we can espouse, a mother dying for her child could primary be due to lack of choice, God can never fall into lack of choice category, it could be due to lack of power etc. God can never fall into lack of power category, . . . we can sit here and devise simulated events and because of His attributes, He would always nullify any possible reason to die for anybody, . . . God's wisdom will always provide a solution which he can enforce and due to this fact, He can NEVER die for any human what so ever because He always have a solution to whatever problem that exist, is it life or death, a cure? And the fact that you conceive LOVE to mean one MUST die again shows the flawed thinking that you want us to believe, The fact that God didn't not put cruelty/lack of compassion between you and your mother or a husband and wife, is enough reason to conclude that His love is supreme, again God is nobody's mother or father, God is Your Creator, until you acknowledge that fact, you would sustain one bluderous question after another! and your question is entirely vague, by you asking would God die for some would you mean if a car was about running over you he would jump in front to get run over by the car in other to save you? so contextualise whatever point you are trying to make if not we would end up going divergently on this issue! God attributes remains the logic behind why he would NEVER die for anybody!


Got me thinking:

Woman your son has been sentenced to death for murder, .. ., My son? please let me die for him, and he be let free so that he would change his ways,. . . Judge, I can't allow that, because it would be unjust, . . .woman plsss!!! let me die for him . . . Judge why? . . . Woman because I love my son die!!, I AM Selfless . . . Judge really? . . . Woman, yes? let me take his place! . . .Judge, It goes against common sense and logic for you to die for a murderer who, have started as a petty liar and then graduated to the level of Murderer, despite on numerous forgiving of this boy, common sense and the wisdom of the law means that we will have to put him to death so that the society can be spared his endless wickedness . . . Woman I assure you if I die for him, he would change his ways for the good! . . . Judge, are you sure? what if he kills another person who would die for him then? . . . woman, I am sure he would cease to do so further! . . . Ok, then put her death! . . .the woman was killed . . . and that very day son killed another person apparrently the police man who got him arrested for the crime . . . Judge! what say ye, was you your decision just. . .

Mr. annony, we ask would you say the woman displayed perfect love? or would say she is selfless? or would you say she was being extremely silly and unreasonable? Was the judge fair to put to death an innocent woman for the crimes of her son who has bee forgiven so many times for all sort of crimes?

If your answer is no, then we can say God as no reason to die for any man, who was given the freedom to make decisions for his ownself and decides to squander such decision, but if you mean You expect God to jump in front of truck to save you or anybody, then I say God wisdom would rather save you using his unquantifiable power than jump in front of truck, if you mean . . . so many solutions because Allah is great and has all the solutions for any concievable problem, all powers belong to him, Allah is the lord of the universe and everything that exist!