Who Is Allah? - Islam for Muslims (4) - Nairaland
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| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 1:17pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
LagosShia: let me answer this question of Mr.Anony.and then answer me who made who and who is like who and for what reason: We are saying the same thing in different ways. I believe that God made man like Him i.e. God made man in such a way that man has God's attributes (albeit at a very much reduced level) in that sense, man is somewhat like God. It is because God has 'blown his spirit into us' that we can recognize God's attributes as God. If you say that God is unlike us in any way then He can't possibly have any attributes that also exist in us in any form whatsoever. For instance, the sun is like the moon in the sense that they both transmit light however the moon has no light of it's own, it only reflects the sun's light. To say that the sun and the moon have absolutely nothing in common is a lie. God made us and put some of his attributes in us. That is what I mean when I say man is made in the image of God. Are we on the same page now? 1 Like |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 1:27pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
vedaxcool:I don't know what question you think I am avoiding. I am not the one taking a stance, you are. I am only questioning your theory of God. Secondly, do not confuse ability with similarity. God and you and I can both see, hear, talk, show mercy, show love e.t.c. The difference is that God does them far far much better than you and I. Now I have given you a chance to reconcile both your premises, you haven't. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by LagosShia: 1:32pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: based on your analogy,please answer this: can we say the sun is like the moon or should we rather say the moon is like the sun? so who is like who? |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 1:36pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
LagosShia:Moon is like the sun. Man is like God |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by LagosShia: 1:38pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: thanks.i think we are done. so God is not like man.but man can be said to be like God in the things God the Creator has given him (the creature) through the act of creation. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by Sweetnecta: 1:43pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
@Mr_Anony: by Mr_Anony(m): 6:16pm On Aug 02If I am a woman: That is impossible because I already a man and there is no way I will be able to become a woman, wiping off my life experience as a male, internal structure, etc, and my children calling me daddy, friends calling omo boy and my woman calling me bobo and mum and dad calling me son, etc. So, an if is not always an if when impossibility is so apparent. The question is not about what befits but what you will do for love. If your son was dying and the only way to save him was to become a toddler, I am sure that you will not hesitate to do it because of the love you have for your child. God loves you even more. His love is limitless.i will not become a toddler because i do not have the power to become a toddler or stop my son from dying. if i have the power to become a toddler, i definitely will have the power to stop my son from dying and it is easier and more logical to just stop the son from dying than to become a toddler and that will make my son not dying. even in economic scale of efficiency, it is more efficient to just stop my son right away instead of becoming a toddler first in order to stop him from dying after i am now a toddler. My friend, this is the point I have been trying to get you to see all this time. God is God, He never changes but 'switching roles' so to speak does not negate Him being God in any way. In the same way the same woman is mother, daughter and wife and yet the same person."switching role"? even you if you switch role, say with your younger siblings, allowing them to be big brothers and big sister for 10 minutes, you will not be the being that is big brother for that whole 10 minutes. so to say that God switching role will not negate His being God in any way is a fallacy. The woman is not the same functional person to her husband who will do husbanding thing with her, while she is the daughter of her parents who can never do any husbanding with her, while the husband never sees her as his daughter. and you know that her son does not have parental and husbanding right over her. By the way when she gets sick, its all her functional person[s] the wife of husband, mother of son and daughter of parent that get sick. mother of son does not get sick and wife of husband is healthy, and daughter of parents choosing to either be sick or not. it does not work that way. the 3 persons in the singular woman suffer the same fate. This remind me that if Jesus was truly God, and there is just One God in christianity, all of them in that One God concept would have suffered same condition[s]. As a matter of fact, when Yahweh sent him to die, Jesus and ghost participated in the sending. When Jesus prayed, all of them prayed. When Jesus was tortured, you guess it; all them got tortured. And of course the death thing would be same. If any survived without going through it as Jesus went through it, then Jesus and the others as One God is a definite fallacy. For God to become a human being, hence function like a human being, eating, drinking, sleeping, etc including going to the toilet is "complete Character change". If you think it is not, then what is and what will be "character changes", and how far shall Christian God go before you say "This is character change"? Again I agree, love is God's inert character/ability. No one loves more perfectly. This is why I say that it shouldn't be beyond God to give up something for those He loves.Why should God choose a manual labor and lowering Himself when He as the Owner of everything can just by command accomplish the same "Love for criminals and sinners" that He Loves? If there are many ways to do something, even humans by intelligence choose the easiest solution. I don't think you want to argue that God would more difficult part than what man will choose? The same God who did things in the most perfectly easy way of creating everything in just 6 days, will now choose 33 years process to end up death in order to forgive because He wants to show how He loves sinners, whereas Jesus said some christians will end up in lake of fire after all? Where can this convoluted process make sense? What society? What logic? The feeling of being a father for the first time - ecstatic as it may be - doesn't automatically make you a perfect father. That's the point. You even made my point for me because when the other children start coming, you can handle their problems better.are you a father of a child or more? maybe you should ask somebody who is a parent of children. and i said the other children become routine. And the first time doing something is the standard. i do not see where i made your point for you. And i didn't use the word "better", instead a routine and the first is the standard and later feeling and action can never surpass the first time. long talk, the question was: what was Allah loving? He couldn't possibly have loved anything else before creation. Love is experiential, it is uncreated and for love to occur, there must be more than one entity.A little boy who his parent see his handle as normal, they can safely say that when this boy becomes a man, he will definitely be a father there is nothing that will derail normality. A loving Entity, Who is a Creator {Allah] was a Creator before He created and was aware that He wlll shower His Loving quality of Love on the creations, later. Allah knows everything and knew everything of the future, even as He gave man free will. He knew those who will be evil and non repenting, ending up by their own action out of His Mercy on the Day of Judgment. The one who is loved experiences it while the one who loved him has it in him to love that person for whatever reason he loves him. I wonder how you think God Love as The Loving would the same or better? Allah loved Adam before Adam became human and Allah knew Iblis will be jealous of Adam so much so that Iblis will disobey Allah in bowing down to Adam. Allah is unlike the God that regrets, or discover the result after action. Allah knew the outcome before it even start. the way you are using it to fool the unsuspecting. you are not honest about your intention it seems, putting your words under your tongue. I don't quite get what you disagree with here. All I said is that since God is perfectly Good as His character, He cannot be evil in any way. Evil that exists is a deviation from a perfect Good. A piece of cloth cannot be white and black at the same time. That's a stark contradiction.the blind person will see white cloth as midnight black. Good God is One God. Many dismiss His existence. To them He may as well be evil because they blame all woes on Him, will they don't see any need for His existence, because the good to them is just by human effort, while they don't see evil as test and or human effort as well. Some make God to be animals, body parts, trees as nature [mother nature having power], human and or spirit. So people see God for Who He is in reality, or what they want Him to be or what the make of Him, them. But God is Who He says he is. The Rights of Allah are in His Characters; Right of receiving true worship is in His Character of being Allah, Rabbi Alamin. His Character of Mercy is in His Right of allowing repenting man to receive His Forgiveness, Mercy. If the Character is not within His Right, there is fallacy introduced. The character of a husband and his right will never be the character of the wife and right of the wife. Husband do not have the character of getting pregnant for 9 months and the Right of motherhood or nursing. If you find any person being a wife and husband at the same time, for sure the society will say it is abnormal and definitely the 2 relations will not be to a single person. Allah can not have partner, becoming other than Allah at anytime, son of Allah, partner of Allah, Ghost, Ghost of Allah, then loving disobedient, disbelievers so much that He will allow them to punish Him and killed Him, while He is the same Allah Who created all, destroyed the people Noah, people of Lot, Pharaoh and his supporters, etc! It does not make sense, logically, morally or religiously. The sinner shall be punished for his sins, in justice or forgiven of it as in showing mercy. Blood of Jesus. This is where we are going to have you be honest. Some part of Torah that fits Quran. The rest I will not use it. Ok so man sins, God is merciful enough to forgive but if God just forgives like that, He will not be just and thereby contradict his nature - because justice requires that a crime must be paid for.So you now set the rule of Forgiveness for God, now? Which is worse; killing animal or killing man for the same purpose? What condition will make the life of man and animal be equal if you are to sacrifice them? And who says God can't forgive like that? Did God forgive Adam and his mate, Eve? Or God didnt forgive them? If they were forgiven, what did they sacrifice, considering that nothing was recorded as a ransom in your Bible? I say God forgave them like that and you cant anything about it. And if if sacrifice a trillion men, God will not accept it if He did not instruct you. And I do not see where God instructed any Jew for human sacrifice or where God said to Jesus sacrifice yourself or anything about killing an innocent person. Who did God pay that to? Who demanded from God? And what benefit does it have since Christ said in your Bible so many christians in spite of them believing in this death will be end up in lake of fire? If a person now rejects the ultimate sacrifice, then the person must be perfectly good by himself else God will have no other choice than to carry out the wrath of judgment on such a person.show me the proof from either from God Who sent Jesus or from Jesus who He sent. Please use OT and the words of Christ in red lettered Bible. No Paul, no johnny comes lately. Let God speak for Jesus and or let Jesus speak for himself. Did Mary mother of Jesus accept her son as what you said? Please show me the acceptance of Mary. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by vedaxcool(m): 1:50pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Mr_Anony:Yawns, . . . you are very funny indeed, you are like God? that's a new one, so your apparently uses toilet like you? oh! wait god also lies like you? oh wait! god can only see one person at a time? oh wait! like you god can only hear one person talk at a time? oh wait! like you god can only show love to one person at a time? oh wait? like you God can only show mercy to one person at a time? . . . if you cannot understand this . . . no one can aid you, as for the bold i won't want to call you a liar but you are steady giving me evidence to these regards to . . .the all too important question is do know what it means to be like something Mr_Anony: If this isn't a stance then what is? If claiming God must die before you believe he love selflessly is not taking a stance then what is? you keep showing that dishonesty is the tactics you want to use to arrive at the truth . . . it will never work . . . and for goodness sake the SUN and the MOON are not alike in any way possible. . . the sun is regard as a star main compose of gases etc . . . the moon on the other hand is composed of entirely different constituents in size or anything for that matter only you can make such strange line of thinking . . . I have to restate that the fallacious way of thinking g cannot be blame on anybody here, the answer given by me and others is sufficient, that you do not like the answer and that it does not conform to your stance cannot be blamed on any body here! |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 1:52pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
LagosShia: Good, now we are working on the same page. let us go further. The reason why we can have any relationship with God whatsoever is because we are made in God's likeness. If God was totally unlike us, then we will not be able to communicate at all. For God to communicate with us, He has to in a sense come down to our level. I believe that the fact that God - as infinitely mighty as He is - even bothers to communicate with unimportant specs of dust like us is because He loves us. Does this follow logically for you? |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by LagosShia: 2:52pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: no it doesn't. you just said that "moon is like sun" and "not sun is like moon".we agreed. in other words man is like God but not God is like man.now you have turned around again and said "If God was totally unlike us, then we will not be able to communicate at all". i have a problem with that because it is not God who is like man,but man who is like God. the right thing for you to say is,if man was totally unlike God then we will not able to communicate at all. God is the Creator.he has created us and knowns us well.the problem does not lie in God knowing us because He who made us knows us.the problem lies in us knowing God. and the solution again lies in this verse: Holy Quran 91:7 "And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it,And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness,He has succeeded who purifies it,And he has failed who instills it [with corruption]". it is man that needs to develop himself and go nearer to God,who is perfect.and not God,the perfect,who needs to get nearer to man who is fallible and sinful. dont turn it the other way.it is not going to work.you still want to find a way or loophole to smuggle in your belief in the need for God to come down as "man" and die on the cross.it does not work. the purpose of creating man,is not for God to come down but for man to go up by purifying himself and following God's examples !God coming down as you christians believe is not a solution for the betterment of man or solution to his spiritual problems.man needs to develop himself to grow up and ascend.he doesnt need God to come dow.even if God comes down,it won't make man better-you'd only end up with a paradise of criminals and debased people. Holy Quran 13:11 "Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves". |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by tbaba1234: 3:49pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
I do not see the purpose of this discussion obviously we can never agree with mr anony's way of thinking... Mr Anony, read the translation of the Quran for your self... you will be better informed as to why muslim has a totally different view of things... I have read most of the bible and a lot about the history of christianity and their scriptures and i had many christian influences in my youth... That reinforced my conviction in Islam... You can't have discussions when you haven't seen the other side of the pond and where they are coming from.... This will get you nowhere.... It is a lazy way of getting information... |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 3:59pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
LagosShia: Lol, you misunderstand me. I am not in any way trying to play with words and meanings neither am I trying to sneak anything in. Arrange the words anyhow you like, one thing we have made clear is that God is perfect, man is imperfect. God is infinitely greater than man. We have agreed on this. Now to the part that interests me. it is man that needs to develop himself and go nearer to God,who is perfect.and not God,the perfect,who needs to get nearer to man who is fallible and sinful.I agree that it is man that needs to strive to get nearer to God i.e. become more perfect. But then, man cannot achieve perfection no matter how hard he tries. He must depend on the love and mercy of God. this is why I say, for man to get to God, God must speak in man's 'imperfect' language else man cannot possibly understand God's revelation. Man's relationship with God at all is an act of God's love. Do you see what I am saying now? Or let me ask it this way: How can a perfect God speak to an imperfect man without speaking in an imperfect language that man's imperfect senses can grasp? unless you want to tell me that whenever God speaks and man understands, then God has elevated the man to perfection temporarily at that moment thereby making him a temporary God? (This is blasphemy) |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 4:50pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
vedaxcool:You are not listening properly at all. I have never said that I am like God in the ways you mentioned. I am not being dishonest; obviously I have my biases but I am being charitable as I am sincerely trying to understand the exact nature of God according to your understanding. If your description follows reasonably, then perhaps it is true |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by LagosShia: 4:52pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Mr_Anony:now you have taken us to another topic.i never said man was born imperfect or does not have the ability to be perfect no matter how relative that may be.obviously,you are misunderstanding me.perhaps deliberately.you christians believe in the concept of "original sin" that man was born with a sin he is not personally responsible for but for which he is being held accountable and made to suffer and pay for.you believe every baby is born with a sinful nature inherited from Adam's so called "original sin". in Islam as in the book of Ezekiel 18,there is nothing like inheritance of sin from father to son.every man is born pure and stainless.it is for you to "purify" your soul or to corrupt it.see the Holy Quran Verse 91:7-10 i earlier presented.
firstly understanding does not mean perfection.i can give you instructions and you understand them very well,yet disobey me and do as you please and totally ignore me. secondly,man does have in many instances moments of perfection or infallibility.for instance when you're driving in high speed and someone suddenly crosses,what do you do? you step on the break abruptly to spare that poor soul from death and yourself from committing an offense.when you're in the kitchen cutting onions with a knife,what stops you or prevent the tendency of you using that knife to cut the throat of the person next to you? answer these questions and you can clearly see that man does have the ability to strive and reach a stage of relative perfection. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 4:55pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
tbaba1234: I do not see the purpose of this discussion obviously we can never agree with mr anony's way of thinking...My friend, I don't need to read the Quran to know God. People knew God way before the quran was written. All I am doing is asking you guys to reasonably explain your belief of God's nature to me. It shouldn't be that hard if you really have an understanding of who it is you worship. It is your side of the pond that I want to see. It has to make sense to me. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by LagosShia: 4:58pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
tbaba1234: I do not see the purpose of this discussion obviously we can never agree with mr anony's way of thinking... you are right. he definitely cannot understand things by trying to see them from his own perspective when talking with others.that is the reason initially i did not want to take part in the thread and had to hesitantly. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by vedaxcool(m): 6:39pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: I am not listening, I simply read what u wrote that clearly pointed to the fact that either u cannot understand what the words there is nothing like him which I clearly showed what it means . . . Again avoiding the question do u know what it means to be like something? . . . Coz evidently ur mind is blocked and only can understand what selfless love means, like means etc . . . Mr_Anony: The evidence so far shows that u are simply being dishonest and there is no way we can get anywhere with such levels of dishonesty! |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by vedaxcool(m): 6:43pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
LagosShia: Seconded! Or is it thirdconded? |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by LagosShia: 8:42pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
vedaxcool: it is thirded!  |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by vedaxcool(m): 9:23pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
^ Then I thirded . . . |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 9:17am On Aug 04, 2012 |
vedaxcool: ^Lol, you guys are funny. Let's continue sha. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 9:30am On Aug 04, 2012 |
LagosShia:My friend, I can say the exact same thing about you. In fact anybody can say the exact same thing about anybody else on this thread. Everyone has biases, there is no way you can learn anything if it doesn't make sense to your bias. This is why we have logic. If something logically follows then we can accept it as true. If faith diverges from logic, then it is blind faith. I believe in rational faith i.e. my faith must logically follow. So far, your conceptions of God are not tying up properly. I am trying to get y'all to rectify them. It smacks of dishonesty and hypocrisy when you(not you in particular but you guys as a whole) are comfortable using parables to describe God but when you are asked hypothetical questions, you flare up even though I stress that that the question is hypothetical. It smells of blind faith and fanaticism, but that's by the way. Let's keep talking. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by Sweetnecta: 9:44am On Aug 04, 2012 |
reality is when you are sure of something and there is no need to say it is there, not reality, not sure of t, hence your hypothetical. reality: One God. reality; many Angels. reality: many prophets. fallacy: many God[s], like in trinity. this fallacy you are nursing it, trying to pass it as reality, by say hypothetical. that is not right. how is God human all of a sudden when He created man weak and He is strong, always? why did He not say to Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc, even Moses that He will be human sometimes in the future so that all people could be forgiven. Maybe pharaoh is forgiven, too or do you see the unfair advantage of human God dying for all people of the future whereas folks of the past; pharaoh do not have the same situation of human God death? today, we have christian pharaohs, jewish pharaohs, even muslim pharaohs. see what your "ifs" have created? |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 9:50am On Aug 04, 2012 |
vedaxcool:What does it mean to be like something? Hmm, ok let me help you. I am like my chair in the sense that we are both made of atoms, possess a shape and are opaque solids. I am unlike my chair in the sense that I can talk, I can walk, I can see e.t.c. I am NOT nothing like my chair, we share some similarities though I am by far greater than my chair I am like God in the sense that we both see, we both love, we both talk e.t.c I am unlike God in the sense that God knows all, sees all, hears all e.t.c I am NOT nothing like God, we share some similarities though God is by far Greater than me. If you can't get what I am saying at this point, then that's just too bad. vedaxcool: The evidence so far shows that u are simply being dishonest and there is no way we can get anywhere with such levels of dishonesty!Really? |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 10:19am On Aug 04, 2012 |
LagosShia: I haven't said anything about original sin, that's another topic entirely. Whether you believe in original sin or not, the point is that man is imperfect. Now, there is no such thing as relative perfection. It is either perfect or it is not. This is why we say God is perfect. To say that man has the ability to achieve perfection in anything is to say that man can by his own ability act exactly like God (this again is blasphemy). LagosShia: firstly understanding does not mean perfection.i can give you instructions and you understand them very well,yet disobey me and do as you please and totally ignore me.First of all, I have said that there is no such thing as relative perfection. It is either perfect or it is not. For you to understand something, the person talking to you has to speak your language in such a way that you will understand. For instance, If you want to explain something to a 3yr old child, you have to come down to the child's level. You cannot speak to the child in a mature way else the child won't understand you. You must speak to the child in a childish way. Now think carefully about this: How does an immensely powerful intelligent God communicate with a helplessly imperfect man and the imperfect man can understand what this perfect being is saying? It is either the Perfect God must speak in an imperfect language so that man can get what He is talking about i.e. He must in a sense, come down to man's level by expressing Himself 'imperfectly' or God must elevate man to 'Godlike' levels so that man can understand Him (the problem with this is that once man relays the message to another man, he immediately makes it imperfect) So which is it? Or How else do you explain God communicating with man at all without selfless love? |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by LagosShia: 2:12pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Mr.Anony, please stop living in denial. i have given you two examples of instances whereby man displays a state of perfection and infallibility.those examples of struggling against the self (nafs) is what promotes man to excellence.if man is completely fallible and implicitly evil,then this our world would be a living hell and worse than what we have.it means you're demoting man to the state of animals or even worse because of the attrocities man would be committing.and when i say man,i mean 100% of humans living on earth,since you argue it is a case of total perfection vs total imperfection.life is not like that.life is a struggle for man to attain what is always better and move towards perfection,and God is the standard of perfect.man can only strive towards Him (God),and thus what he attains is relative to the standard.when you pray and do good you aim to attain God's perfection by following His commands.it is when you move away from God's commands that you find yourself at a state of imperfection.in this world,there is no complete state of good and no complete evil as a whole.people by nature are good and not evil.instances and incidences vary.you try to develop the goodness God has made us in by not committing evil.when you are in the kitchen cutting onions,how are you able to resist your instinct to use the same knife to cut the person next to you? explain that. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 6:56pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
I'm purposely disregarding some parts of your reply because we simply can't come to an understanding of "selfless love" and "hypothetical" therefore I see no need in stressing it further. Sweetnecta:This is just another way of saying you believe in the quran alone and then cover your ears to everything else. I don't know about God forgiving Adam and Eve. It have not seen it in my bible. About Jesus' sacrifice, the question is whether you will accept it if I showed you from the bible. Many times Jesus talked about the fact that He must do the will of God. Many times, Jesus talked about how He will be crucified. Many times, Jesus talked about how He can do nothing other than obey the Father's command. Jesus went to the cross and was crucified in willing obedience. Who did God pay that to? Who demanded from God? And what benefit does it have since Christ said in your Bible so many christians in spite of them believing in this death will be end up in lake of fire?Please show where Christ said this. I don't know the part of my bible you are referring to. show me the proof from either from God Who sent Jesus or from Jesus who He sent. Please use OT and the words of Christ in red lettered Bible. No Paul, no johnny comes lately. Let God speak for Jesus and or let Jesus speak for himself.I can show you scripture backing what I said but first of all, will you accept it as truth if I showed you? |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by Sweetnecta: 8:49pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
if mr_anony is sincere, he will think very deeply before he hypothesize that God could leave quality of Godship/Lordship for a moment just to secure the success of sinners, when He is the Only One Who can forgive then as God/Lord. He could and should simply forgive them without losing any Authority of His Lordship/Godship and no one can question Him of His Action, rather than take a route that makes no sense even from the view human or animal or other things in the creation. If human is to put himself in place of his cattle to prevent lion from eating them, his cattle will still be meals after he has become lunch of the lion. The reality is that it is the instinctive quality of the lion to kill and eat flesh, meat, muscle creatures. Lion will even kill young ones from a different father, or stray lion, etc so that its the one that remains in control of the resources. The greatest enemy of God is satan who is in disobedience, also the enemy of man that God created. Satan has been enemy of man from the beginning of man and he is determined to remain so until the end when he will meet his own end. Satan being a jinn has freewill and knows his limitation in that he can only disobey God while satan simply tempt man in order to lead him into destruction. If God were to be man, and according to the NT seeing what he did to the man Jesus, he would have killed this less than most powerful God at that time and no one to protect Jesus from the hands of satan, because Jesus would be wrong to say "thou not live by bread, alone, or though shall worship God alone, . . . ." because frankly there will not be a God or any God or The God to control all situations. That will make satan able to truly control everything, taking over all including the angels, etc. What will happen is that paradise and or hell will be useless because their functions will be different for their original purposes. Satan could simply destroy man at that time or at anytime without anyone to prevent him and mankind will not be recreated for judgment day, circumvention all initial purposes and plans. It is the fact that God remained as God and Jesus was a servant sent and must complete his mission that we can safely say, God did not let satan have power over Jesus, in at least one or more forms in the "temptation" saga. And God is not a man that He be tempted, says the Bible. Satan can not destroy or tempt Angel of God, why will God allow Himself to be under the control of satan? This will mean therefore Angels become more powerful than God, or Angels do not have any power and definitely rendering everything into a state of chaos because there is no God in power. But God is Utmost Orderly, which is a byproduct of His having Knowledge of all things at all times. He does not cease to be God, the reason it is impossible that He be from among man, even for a moment! Finally, the Bible or the christian declares God raised Jesus up. This statement is so powerful against the idea that God is Jesus. Jesus could never have been God if we analyze the fact that it is God that the christian believes raised Jesus up and not Jesus raising Jesus up because if Jesus was dead, he had no power to do anything in death, since he even declared when alive that he had no power of his own to do anything. I do not subscribe to the idea that Jesus died because The Quran is clear in this. The Bible says Jesus was protected in the temptation saga from satan who was more powerful and more conniving than jews. There is no reason after all of rendering the deceit of satan to nothing that God will let Jesus die a death of Curse in the hands of those people who are less deceitful and who will still go to lake of fire and or for the salvation of those who will believe it, yet with all the beliefs, Jesus said they will still be rejected as some people who followed him because of their evil, lack of sincere faith in following. We see the same condition with Moses that some people who followed him will end up in opposite camp from Moses because of their own deeds even though they followed Moses out of Egypt. We see that Muhammad [sa] said the same thing about the hypocrites in his community because of their deeds. In each case, we see a path of personal deeds and if it is different from the real truth each brought, the individual followe will not be a true follower but a hypocrite and or a liar against the messenger/prophet. Nowhere Jesus said he is God. He said he was sent by God. I am sent by God, too. Jesus had a direct book. I have the book of the one sent with a book. I am therefore a messenger of that messenger to Mr. Anony. Just like Moses didnt say he was the last prophet, but the jews say it for him so that they can deny anyone after him. The same applies to Jesus who did not say he was the last prophet while the christians are managing and struggling to say he was so that they can classify anyone after him as not a true prophet of God, even though he may have clearly passed the acid test of true prophet-hood if they look at what Jesus said. It is Muhammad that the Quran declares as the last messenger and seal of prophet-hood, the only reason i personally reject anyone after Muhammad [sa]. God does not need blood to forgive mankind. He cancelled the even the blood of animals as primary means of atonement according to the christians in their efforts to cheapen the quality of the forgiveness that the jews in their Bible. Instead the christians worsen the condition by making God so vengeful by demanding human blood. God in His Manner of Forgiveness is contrary to this system of the christians. If that was so as the christians proposed, the human blood would have been from the beginning, even before Adam, or in the weaker manner Adam would have been the one to shed the blood. However, God has made forgiveness easiest for us by not demanding blood from us, except sincerity of heart, showing that we as slaves God has not burden us as the people who claim that they are the chosen tribe and those who say they are the children have saddled themselves with burdens. The easy forgiveness process of the muslims is even demonstrated in the forgiveness of Adam and Eve because nothing physical was demanded from them. And there was no curse on them of hard labor and difficulty of childbirth which should have been unique to man. However every specie labors and suffers to eat and procreate. We see the beavers doing hard labor in making its dam and its home. Every animal work hard for their abode and their meal when they are in their natural elements. All female animals go through the difficulty of childbirth, even the domesticated animals. If a muslim were to commit adultery, he simply repent in sincerity to God for forgiveness. If a christian were to commit adultery, is he covered by the blood of Jesus without sincere repentance to God in order to be forgiven? If the blood of Jesus is not simply enough of itself for the christian in the above situation, then what is the need for the blood because the muslim does not need it to achieve the same exact goal if both were forgiven? |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by mazaje(m): 9:37pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Mr Anony will never answer any question,always obfuscating everything and going round in circles offering very tenous arguments. . . nice to see the islamic apologist giving him a very good run for his money. . . . |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by Sweetnecta: 12:12am On Aug 05, 2012 |
@Mr_Anony: Mr_Anony(m): 6:56pmthis is saying that Quran is my criterion and it does allow me to be liberal in something, which are what i accept from the Bible and commands me to be conservative in others which is why i do not accept others from the Bible. I am in the middle course. I don't know about God forgiving Adam and Eve. It have not seen it in my bible. About Jesus' sacrifice, the question is whether you will accept it if I showed you from the bible.if Adam and Eve are not forgiven, where is the destination, now? Hell and you will go to paradise, considering they were created by God first, you are only a replica. If Adam and Eve are not forgiven and will not be in paradise, how can you be in the opposite? You will never in a million years show me the absolute evidence of any sacrifice of Jesus. But I want you to try, still. Many times Jesus talked about the fact that He must do the will of God. Many times, Jesus talked about how He will be crucified. Many times, Jesus talked about how He can do nothing other than obey the Father's command. Jesus went to the cross and was crucified in willing obedience.We can see how you play with words, changing definitions at will. You started out with God is God of Jesus. Then all of a sudden the same God is now father to Jesus who just said God is his God. How Jesus is the son of God, you can not explain it in a million years. Yet if I ask you of how a man is the father of a child, you will say he sired him if he got the mother pregnant or adopted the child if he did not sire him or you may just scratch your head and wonder what i had for breakfast if the child is neither of the about or even if its not a human child since some love their animals so much that they become liars when they say their pet are their children. God is not the same kind as Jesus, a man from his mother and approved by God. From the pages of your Bible one can read that Jesus prayed for God to help him against those who wished to harm him. Whoever ended up on the cross didnt do so willingly, and that can be proven if not by anything else, but by his crying out rebelliously "my God [not my father], my God [not my father], why has thou forsaken me?". No believer will say that if he is obedient. If Jesus talked about being crucified, he definitely didnt live the part because John didn't cry out as he was being beheaded. Please show where Christ said this. I don't know the part of my bible you are referring to.ransom is paid because it is demanded. who demanded it and from whom was it demanded so that Jesus is forced as the sacrificed in the ransom? Christ didnt say it is my point. God didnt say it is still my point. God did not demand any ransom from anyone or from Himself for sinners to be forgiven, and letting innocent man be sacrificed. Somebody made up the concept which you accepted without thinking it through. I can show you scripture backing what I said but first of all, will you accept it as truth if I showed you?I will, if there is no proof to say its not so. We shall use your bible, since it is what you believe in and what I asked you to prove from. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by MrAnony1(m): 12:25am On Aug 05, 2012 |
@Sweetnecta et al, I'll take a break from this thread for the time being. We shall come back to it at a later time and then discuss properly. Perhaps at this point I should tell you who I know God to be (note: as much as possible, try not to assume something I haven't said) I believe God is One, He exists in three Persons and the three are One and the same God. They are not parts of God or types of God but one God. They are three in absolute unity and oneness. The closest (though not perfect) example of this that I can think of is how your soul and your body are both you and not parts or types of you. God is Perfect, He is perfectly Good, God is Love, God is all-sufficient, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-merciful, perfectly just, ever-present e.t.c. in fact God describes Himself best when He says to Moses "I AM!" I believe that God created man in His image in the sense that God is a Spirit and man is a spirit though man lives in a body. I believe that the only way man can truly worship God is through the spirit physical activities are just a shadow of the real thing. You all can give your responses, I'll reply but may not respond to them immediately sha. I'm off this thread for now. Peace. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by Sweetnecta: 12:57am On Aug 05, 2012 |
^^^ In a trillion years, your real mind will never be able to provide any satisfaction of your 3 persons of 1 God. Soul and spirit and body as your means of illustration? Why not throw in mind or heart into the mix? A muslim scholar chimed, which keeps the other up and alive; soul or body? We know when the soul leaves the body, the body is dead, lifeless. We can see the body, living or dead because it is physical. We can not see the soul because it is not physical but spiritual. From this we see that soul is spirit and it is erroneous to say soul is different from spirit and therefore say that man is body, soul and spirit. The perfect God does punish, the reason there is an horrific destination for evildoers, except if God decided to pardon them. And when God said to Moses that He is "I AM" he didnt say He was Yahweh, Jehovah and when Jesus mentioned the proper Name of God, it was not "I AM, Yahweh, Jehovah" but Ellah. God did not create man in His Image because you do not know what God looks like, considering that nothing of man has God and nothing of God has man. But God created the man Adam in the absolute image of Adam: grown man from the get go and we know that children change in looks and personality as they grow from infant to adulthood. It is in adulthood that the image, in less drastic in its changes, if it ever continues. The man Jesus worshiped God in physical sense. I guess Jesus was wrong in your viewpoint in the same way the muslims are wrong in their physical worship. But muslims in their obedience do worship both physically and the spiritual part is 24 hours a day for the prophets of God and same for us if we do not ire. Obedience in God consciousness is what is most important and the reason spirituality and physicality of worship are based on what God Commands. If I say I want a particular meal. If some different meal is prepared and placed before me, I will not be satisfied with the cook and the meal and regardless of the effort and intention, the reality is that the doer of this action and the action are not following an not according to my specification. |
| Re: Who Is Allah? by vedaxcool(m): 9:53am On Aug 06, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: It is good you showed that you do not even understand what likeness means, the word Like is a smile used for DIRECT comparison between two object, when Allah says there is nothing like him, then he means there is nothing like him . . . you porous logic keeps locking you back in the same cell . . .the statement you were disputing is that there is something like Allah . . . yet you have failed woefully in invalidating his statement what you have done is simply twist common sense so hard that it became uncommon wisdom to use mactunji's words . . . uncommon wisdom that in every respect resembles irrational and self serving statements to simply assert you beliefs about God! Mr_Anony: You don't know? . . . |
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