I think we put too much Faith in Knowledge.

^^
What do you mean?

wiegraf: ^^
What do you mean?

We know many things but do we know them to be True. How often is what we know confounded by subsequent events?

What do we base our sense of Certainty on? When you are certain that what you know is true, why do you have the certainty?

Then again you might know loads of things but experience and wisdom might make you more subdued about what you know and so you have less swagger and you're more like a Taoist sage, constantly cautious.

If your stance is that rather than letting it be (to chance, god, fate or whatever) we have to try to better the situation of humanity, then I would imagine it becomes a case of finding the best method to achieve that. Reason, logic with an objective bent (knowledge of the objectively verifiable combined with reason/logic, I suppose) strike me as the better options and in fact seem to have proven themselves these last 500 years or so.

I am one of those 99.99 percent people though. 'This statement is a lie', etc. It is just more practical to me to operate as if 99.99 % = 100 %

Edit: to clarify I wouldn't call it faith, if its been objectively verified, than using the word faith might be inappropriate. The kind of knowledge is an issue, and that's what my post is about

davidylan:

not true. the problem is you already have a biased view in your mind so everything else is chalked down to "making up excuses". That is the issue i have with most atheists... they seem to have a huge problem with objectivity. Only the view that sheds a negative light on the bible is ever to be considered.

1. Yes there are cases of God "repenting" for His actions but they are few and far between and this is certainly NOT one of them. If indeed this was a real "burnt offering" then why did God then go ahead to condemn the jews for doing exactly what Jephthah is alleged to have done? couldnt they just have used this as an excuse?

2. Yes the story tells us that the girl encourages her father to do according to his vow but what does that tell us with regard to the vow specifically? What was your point here? Didnt Samuel also encourage his mother to fullfil her vow to the Lord of giving him up to the temple?

3. We can glean from the chapter that the vow had a lot to do with her celibacy. Her virginity is emphasized THREE SEPARATE times in two verses and the only reason she goes off for 2 months to lament with her friends is about the loss of her s[i]e[/i]x life and not her life, family, friends and land? Unfortunately, i do not expect you to take 2 secs to think on these issues. For you... a negative light on the bible is all you need to run away and make outlandish claims.

Jepthah made a vow to sacrifice what ever comes out of his house to meet him, his daughter came, he cried and tore off his cloths, the verse then said he did to her as he vowed. . .It also said she and her friend mourned cos she will never get married. . .Another translation said she died a virgin. . .How can she die if she was handed over to Yahweh as a nun?. . .

Jdg 11:39 When she returned home, her father kept the vow he had made, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel
Jdg 11:40 for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter.

It even became a custom for young ladies to go away for four days each year to lament her faith. . .You are just making things up brother. . .

Pastor AIO: I think we put too much Faith in Knowledge.

what would you rather we put our faith on; an unproven, unseen, supernatural force that is thought to live up in no certain place called heaven?
What do you call knowledge anyway? Cos what you know is knowledge.

rhymz: Mr David,
Being unnecessarily confrontational does not add any value to the quality of your argument neither does it make you any smarter than those that see things differently from you.
The point I was trying to make was very clear, you would have seen that if only you were less petty.
Truth is relative and subjective to opinion. The absolutism of the nature of truth lies in its relativity. Your truth is your truth by virtue of the fact that you measured it up to opinions that you have come to accept or see as the standards for arriving at the truth. To others who do not agree with your accepted opinions for arriving at what you termed the "truth" it is not the truth let alone the absolute truth, there lies the dilemma of the absolutism of "Truth".
I questioned the authorship of the bible which obviously is your accepted standard for arriving at "your absolute Truth" because it is rife with inaccuracies and relies so much on a belief system that forces adherents to "play faith" without questioning its claims on what constitutes the truth.
Telling non-christians that the real truth lies in christian doctrines and moral laws is a tad bit close-ended and arrogant. Every society pretty much has set standards for arriving at what is right and wrong-some are laid down laws while some are generally accepted tacit mode of behaviour that society indirectly codefy into people. These things predate christianity therefore could not have borrowed from christianity, instead the reverse is the case. Christianity did not invent morality or the Truth, all they did was nothing different from what mainstream religions like islam and co have done.
Enough of your arrogant argument like you know any better than people that do not agree with you. I don't know what science you call opinions but the end products of science is what determines its truth. You are not the only scientist here my friend, in science, hypothesis will always be what it is until it is subjected to some empirical test and found to be true before it goes on to the next level. In engineering for instance, you don't just hypothesize your way into building big complicated machines, it is all a product of rigorous tests on design models and the use of well tested scientific theories. You will be damned to make any untested assumptions and incoporate them into manufacturing any product, that speculative science is fine in the church not in science and that my friend is where lies the superiority of science to the claims of what constitute the truth.

For someone who labels the christian faith as "stoopid" on this exact thread... shouldnt you hypocrite be taking your own advice first? I wont bother reading the rest of your piffle.

mazaje:

Jepthah made a vow to sacrifice what ever comes out of his house to meet him, his daughter came, he cried and tore off his cloths, the verse then said he did to her as he vowed. . .It also said she and her friend mourned cos she will never get married. . .Another translation said she died a virgin. . .How can she die if she was handed over to Yahweh as a nun?. . .

Jdg 11:39 When she returned home, her father kept the vow he had made, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel
Jdg 11:40 for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter.

It even became a custom for young ladies to go away for four days each year to lament her faith. . .You are just making things up brother. . .

I have responded to this several times but it seems you have no use for rational thinking but prefer to push your own preset biased opinion regardless. Again i ask, what have verses 39 and 40 got to do with what exactly her "sacrifice" was? So going up 4 days a year to lament her "fate" automatically means she was burnt alive? Absurd.
Like i said... if she really was burnt alive, it seems a tad strange that the only reason she went off to mourn for 2 months was the loss of her s[i]e[/i]x life. If i had 60 days to die i think there would be more important things to worry about no?

rhymz: what would you rather we put our faith on; an unproven, unseen, supernatural force that is thought to live up in no certain place called heaven?
What do you call knowledge anyway? Cos what you know is knowledge.

So rather than put your faith on an unproven, unseen supernatural force... you choose to place it in an unproven theory that constantly gets revised at the whim of any scientist? Perfect.

rhymz: what would you rather we put our faith on; an unproven, unseen, supernatural force that is thought to live up in no certain place called heaven?
What do you call knowledge anyway? Cos what you know is knowledge.

What we know is Knowledge. Yes. It might derail this thread to go into it.

It would require looking into epistemology.

What we know is not necessarily what is! that is the matter.

Knowledge is not necessarily equal to truth.

In fact I would argue that it can never be equal to Truth.

davidylan:

I have responded to this several times but it seems you have no use for rational thinking but prefer to push your own preset biased opinion regardless. Again i ask, what have verses 39 and 40 got to do with what exactly her "sacrifice" was? So going up 4 days a year to lament her "fate" automatically means she was burnt alive? Absurd.
Like i said... if she really was burnt alive, it seems a tad strange that the only reason she went off to mourn for 2 months was the loss of her s[i]e[/i]x life. If i had 60 days to die i think there would be more important things to worry about no?

I hate dishonesty and you are displaying one here, just giving the bible your own soft interpretation to exp[lain absurdity away. . .Did he father made a vow to sacrifice her as a burnt offering or to make her celibate? Stop LYING. . .The verse said he father did to her as he VOWED and the vow was to sacrifice her as a burnt offering. . .Sure, she mourned her not being able to marry cos she was a virgin and the passage immediately said she died a virgin. . .He father did to he as he vowed. .What was his vow?. . Stop lying. . .The text is very clear, he father vowed and stated that he can not go back on his vow, the vow was to sacrifice her as a burnt offering, he cried and tore his cloths, if he was only offering her as a nun for Yahweh why should he cry and tear up his cloths, remember others happily handed their kids to Yahweh to become nuns etc, why did he cry and tear up his cloths?. . .What was her fathers vow? You dont want to touch it. .You keep lying about non issues, saying God does not break his laws in the bible when we have the same bible talking about God doing evil and apologizing for his evil deeds and breaking his own laws and repenting. . .Keep on deluding yourself. . .

mazaje:

I hate dishonesty and you are displaying one. . .Diod he father made a vow to sacrifice her as a burnt offering or to make her a celibate? Stop LYING. . .The verse said he father did to her as he VOWED and the vow was to sacrifice her as a burnt offering. . .Sure, she mourned her not being able to marry cos she was a virgin and the passage immediately said [size=18pt]she died[/size] a virgin. . .He father did to he as he vowed. .What was his vow?. . Stop lying. . .The text is very clear, he father vowed and stated that he can not go back on his vow the vow was to sacrifice her as a burnt offering, he cried and tore his cloths, if he was only offering her as a nun for Yahweh why should he cry and tear up his cloths, remember others happily handed their kids to Yahweh, why did he cry and tear up his cloths. . .What was he fathers vow? You dont want to touch it. .You keep lying about non issues, saying God does not break his laws in the bible when we have the same bible talking about god doing evil and apologizing for his evil deed. . .Keep on deluding yourself. . .

Please can you provide the verse that expressly states that she DIED? I too hate dishonesty and i believe you are not engaging in such. I have such high faith in you that you will provide that verse in clear terms for me. Over to you.

davidylan:

Please can you provide the verse that expressly states that she DIED? I too hate dishonesty and i believe you are not engaging in such. I have such high faith in you that you will provide that verse in clear terms for me. Over to you.

Jdg 11:39 When she returned home, her father kept the vow he had made, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel
Jdg 11:40 for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter. NLT. . .

Pastor AIO: I think we put too much Faith in Knowledge.

Bad comment.

Kay 17:

Bad comment.

Yes, very naughty.

mazaje:


Jdg 11:39 When she returned home, her father kept the vow he had made, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel
Jdg 11:40 for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter. NLT. . .

@mazaje, your are arguing besides the point even if Jephthah actually burnt his daughter, it still doesn't prove that it was with God's consent.

The task for you is to show us explicitly where God accepts this alleged human sacrifice either by showing us a verse where God demands it from Jephthah or a verse where God commends Jephthah for it. You still haven't done this.

(...and please don't argue from silence)

Mr_Anony:

@mazaje, your are arguing besides the point even if Jephthah actually burnt his daughter, it still doesn't prove that it was with God's consent.

The task for you is to show us explicitly where God accepts this alleged human sacrifice either by showing us a verse where God demands it from Jephthah or a verse where God commends Jephthah for it. You still haven't done this.

(...and please don't argue from silence)

The question is that arent christians ashamed that their bible talks about burning children as if it is a normal thing?

Abraham is the biggest fool in the bible. What kind of parent is ready to sacrifice his son? I would sacrifice myself 10 times before I even think of sacrificing my nephew, not to even mention my of my son.

davidylan:

and i suppose you prefer pseudo-science for totally empirically sound reasons right? Yeah color me naive.
Religious belief/faith is a subjective matter. It is not and has never been dependent on logic or reason. The burden of proof is on you to show how science totally invalidates the faith-based belief system.

If you really believe this then there is no need for a debate! You can't argue with someone (who does not depend on logic or reason) upon something that does not depend on logic or reason!

turnstoner:

If you really believe this then there is no need for a debate! You can't argue with someone (who does not depend on logic or reason) upon something that does not depend on logic or reason!

The funny part is that he is a biologist!

turnstoner:

If you really believe this then there is no need for a debate! You can't argue with someone (who does not depend on logic or reason) upon something that does not depend on logic or reason!

dont be daft. Being religious does not automatically mean you dont depend on logic or reason. Faith in the bible is a personal choice, i however believe that gravity is real and logical.

Secondly... you claim that you depend on logic and reason... can you logically explain evolution and how it determines lifespan pls?

davidylan:

dont be daft. Being religious does not automatically mean you dont depend on logic or reason. Faith in the bible is a personal choice, i however believe that gravity is real and logical.

Secondly... you claim that you depend on logic and reason... can you logically explain evolution and how it determines lifespan pls?

Sorry. I don't want to start a fruitless argument!

mazaje:


Jdg 11:39 When she returned home, her father kept the vow he had made, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel
Jdg 11:40 for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter. NLT. . .

I certainly do not agree with the NLT on that and very few translations (particularly the older translations) certainly disagree that she died on a stake.

turnstoner:

Sorry. I don't want to start a fruitless argument!

I agree, it will definitely be fruitless since your argument will also be based entirely on spurious claims you cannot defend. I'm not ever expecting any "logical" atheist to be bold enough to state his case.

davidylan:

dont be daft. Being religious does not automatically mean you dont depend on logic or reason. Faith in the bible is a personal choice, i however believe that gravity is real and logical.

Secondly... you claim that you depend on logic and reason... can you logically explain evolution and how it determines lifespan pls?

See how deceitful Davidylan is? He uses a difficult issue (aging/lifespan) that we are still learning about to try to say that evolution is not logical.


You are sick. Does the bible teach you to act dubiously?

MacDaddy01:


See how deceitful Davidylan is? He uses a difficult issue (aging/lifespan) that we are still learning about to try to say that evolution is not logical.


You are sick. Does the bible teach you to act dubiously?

uh oh. Infact i didnt raise the topic, a fellow atheist like you did. Look, there are so many similar questions that completely show up evolutionary theory for the rubble that it is. Belief in that theory requires so much more faith than you need to believe in a bible.

Secondly, where did i act dubious? I just pointed out to you that many of you are completely stupefied by the fact that your favorite theory actually raises way more questions than it answers... not my fault.

Mr_Anony:

@mazaje, your are arguing besides the point even if Jephthah actually burnt his daughter, it still doesn't prove that it was with God's consent.

The task for you is to show us explicitly where God accepts this alleged human sacrifice either by showing us a verse where God demands it from Jephthah or a verse where God commends Jephthah for it. You still haven't done this.

(...and please don't argue from silence)

I believe it is clear by now that the girl was roasted.

Your angle is to show that god did not approve.

Arent you yourself arguing from silence here ? If you reason that because god did not commend it, he must have condemned it, dont you think we could look at the other side of the coin.
The god in the bible is certainly not shy and has been known to condemn acts he was displeased with. So if he was displeased with the act, dont you think he would have condemned it ? And if he did not condemn it . . .

Also, since he was god, couldnt he have rejected the sacrifice or prevented the girl from coming out or simply absolving Jephthah from his sworn obligation ?

This god certainly seems to have a thing for "only" children; Isaac, Jephthah's daughter, Jesus (another human sacrifice by the way).

MacDaddy01:
The question is that arent christians ashamed that their bible talks about burning children as if it is a normal thing?

No we are not ashamed of the bible. The "normal thing" part is just your bias. I am sure you wouldn't accuse a newspaper of reporting murder as a "normal thing"

Abraham is the biggest fool in the bible. What kind of parent is ready to sacrifice his son? I would sacrifice myself 10 times before I even think of sacrificing my nephew, not to even mention my of my son.

It is interesting how you would sacrifice yourself for your nephew but you think Jesus is equally foolish for laying down His life for you

davidylan:

uh oh. Infact i didnt raise the topic, a fellow atheist like you did. Look, there are so many similar questions that completely show up evolutionary theory for the rubble that it is. Belief in that theory requires so much more faith than you need to believe in a bible.

Secondly, where did i act dubious? I just pointed out to you that many of you are completely stupefied by the fact that your favorite theory actually raises way more questions than it answers... not my fault.

How foolish!


1) Aging/human lifespan has always been a difficult issue, even before evolution.

2) Evolution actually answers more questions than it raises. Apologetic christians like you want evolution to explain everything before you accept it. Evolution should explain everything about human life (when we dont know everything about the human body). I know how dubious christians like yourself operate.

MacDaddy01:

How foolish!


1) Aging/human lifespan has always been a difficult issue, even before evolution.

2) Evolution actually answers more questions than it raises. Apologetic christians like you want evolution to explain everything before you accept it. Evolution should explain everything about human life (when we dont know everything about the human body). I know how dubious christians like yourself operate.

suit yourself.

Mr_Anony:
No we are not ashamed of the bible. The "normal thing" part is just your bias. I am sure you wouldn't accuse a newspaper of reporting murder as a "normal thing"

So the bible is only reporting?

When you see an article about genocide/murder in a newspaper, you see words like "criminal", "inhuman", "ghastly", "killer", "evil" to describe what happened. You dont see that in the bible. God gleefully tells us the horrific news in great details- "smash babies against rocks" , "I shall smite them!" , send forth your enemies' foreskins"

Mr_Anony:
It is interesting how you would sacrifice yourself for your nephew but you think Jesus is equally foolish for laying down His life for you

Mr. Artful Dodger, the issue is Abraham's willful st.upidity in agreeing to sacrifice his son.

I dont even think Jesus existed in the first place and guess what? I know my nephew and but Jesus did know me.

Enigma:

This is similar to something I said on this forum fairly recently and is a position I had held for some time independently of Gray's work; much of the so-called "values" or "morality" that "secular" humanism seeks to espouse is borrowed (and/or adapted) from the very same much vilified Christianity specifically and religion in general.

As John Gray said (and see my current signature): "To insist that religion is peculiarly malignant is fanaticism, or mere stupidity."

To place Religion on a partisan stand is risky and untruthful.