Deep Sight:

Virtual particles do not arise from nothingness because the quantum vaccum in which they occur are not nothing. They contain gaseous pressure. Can nothingness contain gaseuos pressure?

Virtual particles are not caused by gases in the vaccum..you are mixing things up..Virtual particles are seemingly uncaused [and they are greatly uncertain and disobey energy laws], thier rate of appearance and disappearance and energy variances can in no way stem from the gases and my concepts of a perfect vaccum is to explain the true state of nothing which you said has never existed..

Deep Sight:

There you are. Even you had to laugh.

Point: Reality is not limited to senses.

Just like I told you:the wall you see is not really there. There are atoms there,but they do not form solidity. The only reason you can walk through the wall is the motion between them. So is the wall real?

This seals the point that your argument about defining things that exist, as things that can be perceived with our senses only, is flawed.

Just like time exists. Just like galaxies which we cannot see, and will NEVER see, exist.

Reality is limited to senses. If Humans couldnt see blue, we wouldnt be talking about blue.


Anything beyond our senses is irelevant. We can not surpass our abilities or we would be superhuman.

Deep Sight:

No: God is inferred from the fact that the universe demonstrably had a beginning. It would be unscientific, you know, to assert that the massive motion of the big b ang occured without a trigger.

The universe having a beginning means the universe had a beginning and thats all. . .NO one knows know what triggered it. . .Claiming you do remains a LIE. . .And ascribing qualities to what YOU think triggered it is even worse. No one knows what triggered it, people can only put forth their own speculations and thats all. .The god idea remains a speculation and god ideas like yahweh , allah and vishnus are obvious myths cos men created thos ideas. . . .

Deep Sight:

Exactly: and so the point remains that you can no more prove your thought of roast beef than he can prove holy spirit. So you have no grounds to allege that holy spirit does not exist, any more than he has grounds to allege that your thought of roast beef does not exist.

The binding point is that it is flawed to assert that reality is limited to perception of the senses or tangible things.

Rubbish.
I know what roast beef looks like, tastes like, and smells like.
Roast beef looks the same, tastes the same and smells the same to every normal person.
except for those who dont like roast or those allergic to it roast the thought of roast beef would be similar to most people.

Holy ghost is a different matter. You first have to drink the religious potion in order to see(?) or feel(?) it.

Mr_Anony:
Actually, I was describing your condition. You do not know what the first cause is, you are not willing to ponder it yet you are happy to ridicule it.

I am glad you can see your condition for what it is when you don't realize it describes you.

You are not like a child eager to know, you are more like a child stuffing his ears and chanting: spaghetti! spaghetti! spaghetti!

Awesome That sure is smackdown

mkmyers45: Virtual particles are not caused by gases in the vaccum..you are mixing things up..Virtual particles are seemingly uncaused [and they are greatly uncertain and disobey energy laws], thier rate of appearance and disappearance and energy variances can in no way stem from the gases and my concepts of a perfect vaccum is to explain the true state of nothing which you said has never existed..

The point is that they do not emerge from nothingness.

If something emerges from or within something else, it is illogical to then claim that it has no cause.

Please read this post.

https://www.nairaland.com/393099/evolution-proves-creation/1#6849507

MacDaddy01:


Reality is limited to senses. If Humans couldnt see blue, we wouldnt be talking about blue.


Anything beyond our senses is irelevant. We can not surpass our abilities or we would be superhuman.

It is beyond any human being in this world to perceive your thoughts with his 5 physical senses, is it not? Not even a brain scan can see your thoughts, do you deny this?

As such can we assert that your thoughts do not exist and are not relevant?

Ihedinobi:

Awesome That sure is smackdown

Like the child in you, you are only interested in the entertainment section.

he he

@Deep Sight Virtual Vaccum's is just a way that permits us to observe the behaviour of virtual particles..Its just like a frequency/condition needed for us to notice them now if we truly observe and scrutinize evidence then you would have to agree with me that Perfect Vaccum have indeed been obtainable in space.

mazaje:

The universe having a beginning means the universe had a beginning and thats all. . .NO one knows know what triggered it. . .Claiming you do remains a LIE. . .And ascribing qualities to what YOU think triggered it is even worse. No one knows what triggered it, people can only put forth their own speculations and thats all. .The god idea remains a speculation and god ideas like yahweh , allah and vishnus are obvious myths cos men created thos ideas. . . .

You know I am not into Yahweh and co, so please leave me out of that bl.ood thirsty tyrant's matter.

You concede that the universe had a trigger. There are tenable properties for what such a trigger must have - attributes that it must have. That's the point.

Deep Sight:

It is beyond any human being in this world to perceive your thoughts with his 5 physical senses, is it not?Not even a brain scan can see your thoughts, do you deny this?

As such can we assert that your thoughts do not exist and are not relevant?

I can see my thoughts.


You can see yours.


They exist

mkmyers45: @Deep Sight Virtual Vaccum's is just a way that permits us to observe the behaviour of virtual particles..Its just like a frequency/condition needed for us to notice them now if we truly observe and scrutinize evidence then you would have to agree with me that Perfect Vaccum have indeed been obtainable in space.

Please show mean exampleof the perfect vacuum that has been observed in space. The scientific fact is that none has ever been.I gave you a link. Read it.

Now since you have acknowledged that the vacuums observed are not perfect vacuums, then you must agree that virtual particles do not arise from nothing.

mkmyers45: @Deep Sight Virtual Vaccum's is just a way that permits us to observe the behaviour of virtual particles..Its just like a frequency/condition needed for us to notice them now if we truly observe and scrutinize evidence then you would have to agree with me that Perfect Vaccum have indeed been obtainable in space.

Please show me an example of the perfect vacuum that has been observed in space. The scientific fact is that none has ever been.I gave you a link. Read it.

Now since you have acknowledged that the vacuums observed are not perfect vacuums, then you must agree that virtual particles do not arise from nothing.

MacDaddy01:


I can see my thoughts.


You can see yours.


They exist

That is not a problem. In the same way, people say that they see God, or feel God, or hear God.

You cannot any more disprove that than they can dispove the existence of your thoughts.

Thus your definition of things that exist was a wrong definition.

Deep Sight:

Please show mean exampleof the perfect vacuum that has been observed in space. The scientific fact is that none has ever been.I gave you a link. Read it.

Now since you have acknowledged that the vacuums observed are not perfect vacuums, then you must agree that virtual particles do not arise from nothing.

I opened up a thread so we wont muddle up a thread.. now. The conditions of a pure vaccum may never be re-attainable...Its not illogical to rubbish that such a state once existed that is why i used the
word 'have been'..

Conditions for a pure vacuum: 1. Maintaining a temperature of
0Kelvin [absolute zero]..now its
important to know that science has
never reached but they have
successfully cooled stuff to a few
hundreds of a billionth of a degree...Now the lowest
temperature ever
measured in the solar system was
on the Moon. Last year, NASA's
Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter
measured temperatures as low as −240°C in permanently shadowed
craters near the lunar south pole.
The coldest known place in the
universe is the Boomerang Nebula,
5,000 light years away from us in
the constellation Centaurus. Scientists reported in 1997 that
gases blowing out from a central
dying star have
expanded and rapidly cooled to 1
kelvin, only one degree warmer
than absolute zero. Usually, gas clouds in space have been warmed
to at least 2.7 kelvin by the cosmic
microwave background, the relic
radiation left over from the big
slam. But the Boomerang Nebula's
expansion creates a kind of cosmic refrigerator, allowing the gases to
maintain their unusual cool. Now i insist that it is logical to assume
that a certain point in time 0K
was obtainable within space
[container] for a period of time.

mkmyers45: I opened up a thread so we wont muddle up a thread.. now. The conditions of a pure vaccum may never be re-attainable...Its not illogical to rubbish that such a state once existed that is why i used the
word 'have been'..

When was such a state ever attained please?

mkmyers45: Conditions for a pure vacuum: 1. Maintaining a temperature of
0Kelvin [absolute zero]..now its
important to know that science has
never reached but they have
successfully cooled stuff to a few
hundreds of a billionth of a degree...Now the lowest
temperature ever
measured in the solar system was
on the Moon. Last year, NASA's
Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter
measured temperatures as low as −240°C in permanently shadowed
craters near the lunar south pole.
The coldest known place in the
universe is the Boomerang Nebula,
5,000 light years away from us in
the constellation Centaurus. Scientists reported in 1997 that
gases blowing out from a central
dying star have
expanded and rapidly cooled to 1
kelvin, only one degree warmer
than absolute zero. Usually, gas clouds in space have been warmed
to at least 2.7 kelvin by the cosmic
microwave background, the relic
radiation left over from the big
slam. But the Boomerang Nebula's
expansion creates a kind of cosmic refrigerator, allowing the gases to
maintain their unusual cool. Now i insist that it is logical to assume
that a certain point in time 0K
was obtainable within space
[container] for a period of time.

Zzero kelvin does not equate to nothingness.

Deep Sight:

That is not a problem. In the same way, people say that they see God, or feel God, or hear God.

You cannot any more disprove that than they can dispove the existence of your thoughts.

Thus your definition of things that exist was a wrong definition.

Epic fail. Thoughts come from memories. Memories are recorded events.


Thought exercise
-Think of a monster. You thought of a monster that you have seen in a movie or picture
-Think of an umbrella. You thought of either a generic umbrella or one you have seen before.
-Think of orokpo. Blank, no thoughts. You dont know what Orokpo is.


God is just a false memory or hallucination.

MacDaddy01:


Epic fail. Thoughts come from memories. Memories are recorded events.


Thought exercise
-Think of a monster. You thought of a monster that you have seen in a movie or picture
-Think of an umbrella. You thought of either a generic umbrella or one you have seen before.
-Think of orokpo. Blank, no thoughts. You dont know what Orokpo is.


God is just a false memory or hallucination.

Your Orokpo turns up blank because you dont know what Orokpo is or it does not exist.

The word God, may turn up blank for you, but that is you: for same reasons as Orokpo.

Rest assured that it does not turn up blank for me, and for billions of others.

Some think of a Daddy in the Sky. For me, it turns up a white unwavering light.

Deep Sight:

Your Orokpo turns up blank because you dont know what Orokpo is or it does not exist.

The word God, may turn up blank for you, but that is you: for same reasons as Orokpo.

Rest assured that it does not turn up blank for me, and for billions of others.

Some think of a Daddy in the Sky. For me, it turns up a white unwavering light.

Depending on who tells me to think about god or what type of god.


Think of god as a force = white light of energy

Think of yaweh = old pervert drunk with blood and foreskin

Think of yaweh (when logicboy was a christian) = old man with the worlds in his hand



all these thoughts have been implanted as false memories from tvs and the lies of tithe preaching charlatans

As I retire for the evening, let me just note that neither Plaetton nor Macdaddy have been able to answer any of the very simple questions put to them.

We saw very pitiful escapism, and till now,not a single answer.

This is enough to show who is really imagining things.

G'Nite fellas.

Deep Sight:

Zzero kelvin does not equate to nothingness.

What does it equate to? At absolute zero there is nothing - nothing/no bieng..Chemistry calms do a stand still as all concievable energy within that space is gone as it can be said to exist nowwhere..Yes Uncertainty Principle makes this concept this difficult but its clear that lack of energy within a space = Nothing

Deep Sight: As I retire for the evening, let me just note that neither Plaetton nor Macdaddy have been able to answer any of the very simple questions put to them.

We saw very pitiful escapism, and till now,not a single answer.

This is enough to show who is really imagining things.

G'Nite fellas.

Just because, I left you off the hook with your numbers?


You should take a leaf from Anony. He was the theist boss until the atheist got fed up and debunked him today! Th guy was trying to escape left and right but they atheists werent having it.

mkmyers45: What does it equate to? At absolute zero there is nothing - nothing/no bieng..Chemistry calms do a stand still as all concievable energy within that space is gone as it can be said to exist nowwhere..Yes Uncertainty Principle makes this concept this difficult but its clear that lack of energy within a space = Nothing

I keep asking you to show me this perfect vacuum.You have not.

Just kindly show me any space or vacuum that hhas zero energy. There is none. Read -

In everyday usage, vacuum is a volume of space that is essentially empty of matter, such that its gaseous pressure is much less than atmospheric pressure.[1] The word comes from the Latin term for "empty". Even putting aside the complexities of the quantum vacuum, [size=16pt]the classical notion of a perfect vacuum with gaseous pressure of exactly zero is only a philosophical concept and never is observed in practice. [/size]Physicists often discuss ideal test results that would occur in a perfect vacuum, which they simply call "vacuum" or "free space", and use the term partial vacuum to refer to real vacuum. The Latin term in vacuo is also used to describe an object as being in what would otherwise be a vacuum.

The quality of a vacuum refers to how closely it approaches a perfect vacuum. Residual gas pressure is a primary indicator of quality, and is most commonly measured in units called torr, even in metric contexts. Lower pressures indicate higher quality, although other variables must also be taken into account. See ultra-high vacuum. Quantum theory sets limits for the best possible quality of vacuum, predicting that no volume of space can be perfectly empty. See QCD vacuum, for example. Outer space and interstellar space are naturally occurring high quality vacuums, mostly of much higher quality than can be created artificially with current technology.

http://dicionario.sensagent.com/Torricellian%20vacuum/en-en/

More -

In quantum mechanics, the vacuum is defined as the state (i.e. solution to the equations of the theory) with the lowest energy. To first approximation, this is simply a state with no particles, hence the name.

Even an ideal vacuum, thought of as the complete absence of anything, will not in practice remain empty. Consider a vacuum chamber that has been completely evacuated, so that the (classical) particle concentration is zero. The walls of the chamber will emit light in the form of black body radiation. This light carries momentum, so the vacuum does have a radiation pressure. This limitation applies even to the vacuum of interstellar space. Even if a region of space contains no particles, the cosmic microwave background fills the entire universe with black body radiation.

An ideal vacuum cannot exist even inside of a molecule. Each atom in the molecule exists as a probability function of space, which has a certain non-zero value everywhere in a given volume. Thus, even "between" the atoms there is a certain probability of finding a particle, so the space cannot be said to be a vacuum.



http://dicionario.sensagent.com/Torricellian%20vacuum/en-en/

So please there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum. This means that virtual particles do not arise from nothing - they arise from something and as such cannot be said to be uncaused.

MacDaddy01:


Just because, I left you off the hook with your numbers?


You should take a leaf from Anony. He was the theist boss until the atheist got fed up and debunked him today! Th guy was trying to escape left and right but they atheists werent having it.

You haven't debunked nada on this thread or ever. If anything, you lot have been shamefully running away from simple questions. Plaetton and yourself ran from the question of attributes which i listed: it was not addressed for even one second - most shameful indeed. Finally you could not describe blue, which showed that your definition of existent things was wrong. You admitted as much regarding Time.

Enough for the day.

G'nite.

Deep Sight:

Because the universe demonstrably had a beginning.

The gospel according to Deep Sight.

FSM also presupposes first cause.

Almost definitely some Italian Chef. Pardon my blasphemy.


I cant believe you were giving me advice on one thread and getting caught here.
sh it happens.

Deep Sight: More -

In quantum mechanics, the vacuum is defined as the state (i.e. solution to the equations of the theory) with the lowest energy. To first approximation, this is simply a state with no particles, hence the name.

Even an ideal vacuum, thought of as the complete absence of anything, will not in practice remain empty. Consider a vacuum chamber that has been completely evacuated, so that the (classical) particle concentration is zero. The walls of the chamber will emit light in the form of black body radiation. This light carries momentum, so the vacuum does have a radiation pressure. This limitation applies even to the vacuum of interstellar space. Even if a region of space contains no particles, the cosmic microwave background fills the entire universe with black body radiation.

An ideal vacuum cannot exist even inside of a molecule. Each atom in the molecule exists as a probability function of space, which has a certain non-zero value everywhere in a given volume. Thus, even "between" the atoms there is a certain probability of finding a particle, so the space cannot be said to be a vacuum.



http://dicionario.sensagent.com/Torricellian%20vacuum/en-en/

So please there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum. This means that virtual particles do not arise from nothing - they arise from something and as such cannot be said to be uncaused.

Where do these particle come from? Tell me explictly..My argurment is that perfect vaccum have at one time or another existed in space. Do you agree that zero temperature makes the surrounding space empty with nothing? Even photon radiation is no longer possible by the container at that temperature. Although external weakly interacting particle [neutrinos] may breach the container eventually no matter how thick the container is, it is safe to assume that even for a billionth of a nano second we have nothing no?

Deep Sight:

Conscisely, because the universe is matter,and matter cannot cause itself and as such, the cause of matter cannot be matter: and is therefore immaterial. That which is immaterial is naturally permanent and uncaused.

Yup. But god can cause himself.

My bad, god is uncaused.

Jah Jehovah Emmanuel !!!

Deep Sight:

By reason.

It is logical to say that a first cause is eternal or immaterial:

According to your understanding

Is it logical to say that a first cause is Indomie Noodles?

And you call yourself Deep Sight when you cant differentiate between Spaghetti and Indomie

Deep Sight:

1. Something exists.

2. Something cannot come from nothing.

3. Thus something pre exists.

4. The pre existent cannot be nothing.

5. It is thus a permanent something.

These are from your own experience which even you must admit is limited.