KAG:

Are most likely lying, deluded, or are/were so superstitious they interpreted any type of good fortune as a direct result of mumbo jumbo.

I was expecting you to say that. I've heard that countless times from your fellow atheists. This however, does not deny the fact that the supernatural does exist indeed. If you're Nigerian, ask yourself why cases of kidnappings become rampant when a higher denomination of the naira is introduced.

KAG:

It is a rational explanation. Most people have dreamt about buildings on fire at least one point in their lifes, some dream of a building on fire, the world trade center catches fire, ergo they predicted it. That or they only remembered the one dream out of many that coincidentally came to pass; which incidenatlly is what most people do.

I'm talking of dreams like: You saw someone in your dream. He gave u certain warnings, and the consequences of not following the warnings thereof. Eventually, you wake up, you ignore the warnings thinking "it was a mere dream" and Alas!, you begin to face the consequences. (It may not be a dream like this exactly, but something similar).

KAG:

I young and wise enough to know the human urge to believe some kind of prophetic leaning lie in them.

That you haven't experienced such should not be an avenue for you to deny it's existence. These things happen for real.

KAG:

You mean prophecies like on the 21st of June, George Bush will go into a coma caused by a stroke, or sometime in the future, a womn will meet a man and fall in love? The former is an example of an xact prophecy, and if that came to pass, that would be a prophecy, the latter on the other hand…

Yes, something close to the latter.

KAG:

Don't know the dude, but wht was the prophecy like, how old was Bola Ige and what health problems did he have, and more importantly, how was that "prophecy" recorded (for lack of a better owrd) before the death?

Bola Ige was a Senior Advocate of Nigeria. The prophecy went this way: "In December 2001, a very notable person in Nigeria will be killed by asassins". How clearer could this be?

KAG:

We fold our arms and invent new Gods to take away our fear of the big bad Universe, or we keep plugging away at it, until eventually we either find an explanation, a plausible explanation, or the future generation does.

And while we're waiting for that time to come (if at all it will), shouldn't there be at least, a simple explanation?

goodguy:

I was expecting you to say that. I've heard that countless times from your fellow atheists.

Never heard it from other christians,agnostics, deists etc.? I'm surprised.

This however, does not deny the fact that the supernatural does exist indeed.

No it doesn't, but they were parsimonious explanations for the "sacrifice to money" claim.

If you're Nigerian, ask yourself why cases of kidnappings become rampant when a higher denomination of the naira is introduced.

I wouldn't know where to begin.

I'm talking of dreams like: You saw someone in your dream. He gave u certain warnings, and the consequences of not following the warnings thereof. Eventually, you wake up, you ignore the warnings thinking "it was a mere dream" and Alas!, you begin to face the consequences. (It may not be a dream like this exactly, but something similar).
That you haven't experienced such should not be an avenue for you to deny it's existence. These things happen for real.

They may, they may not, but I've given a "rational" explanation for why people believe they had/have visionary dreams.

Yes, something close to the latter.

Then they aren't exact prophecies, and are not prophecies in my opinion.

Bola Ige was a Senior Advocate of Nigeria. The prophecy went this way: "In December 2001, a very notable person in Nigeria will be killed by asassins". How clearer could this be?

So he was talking about this guy: Odunayo Olagbaju, member, Osun State House of Assembly, killed in Ile-Ife on December 21, 2001. (from http://www.nigerdeltacongress.com/particles/political_killings_in_the_presen.htm), and that's just from a quick google.

This is a much clearer prophecy, "in December 2001, the minister for justice will be assassinated", or, a notable minister with the initials BI will be assassinated on the 23rd of December 2001.

By the way, how was the "prophecy" recorded, who heard it before the assassinations, and any evidence it was said before the assassinations? Also, how many prophecies on verage does the prophet make, and how many of them do come to pass?

And while we're waiting for that time to come (if at all it will), shouldn't there be at least, a simple explanation?

There usually is, people with supernatural beliefs though, are often dissatisfied with them, and require evidence approaching 99% "proof" (even that isn't good enough for some).

[/quote]

[quote]

Will you dispute with him concerning what he saw.
If you have not experienced supernatural incidences before, that does not mean you deny it exists.

In the Quran, God ask you several times to use your intelligence and wisdom. This goes to show that true religion cannot be opposed to true intelligence. The fact is that most of those who parade their religiosity are really not religious while most who parade themselves as intellectuals are really not intelligent.

Apart from that, intelligence is a relative term. For example, a prof of physics could be a dumb of fashion. Lets take it that generally, truly religious people are not less intelligent than those who are not.

Yes o!Nuru.
The point with te way KAG reason in this discourse is simply this:He dose not accept that there is an intelligence that science cannot explain.To suggest there is is to really extract the kinds of responses we have been reading so far.

Summary:anything that you cannot explain within the scope of intelligence that acquired through science does not exist!that is the reasoning that fules the 'cockiness' of 'very intelligent people' who wonder if religious people can be intelligent at all.

gidig:

Yes o!Nuru.
The point with te way KAG reason in this discourse is simply this:He dose not accept that there is an intelligence that science cannot explain.

That's probably because all intelligent beings that we've witnessed empirically so far, all exist in the natural.

To suggest there is is to really extract the kinds of responses we have been reading so far.

Huh?

Summary:anything that you cannot explain within the scope of intelligence that acquired through science does not exist!that is the reasoning that fules the 'cockiness' of 'very intelligent people' who wonder if religious people can be intelligent at all.

Please doin't put words in my mouth, or pretend to be summarising my views, especially if you don't actually know or understand my views. Thank you.

nuru:

Will you dispute with him concerning what he saw.

Depends on what he saw.

If you have not experienced supernatural incidences before, that does not mean you deny it exists.

No it doesn't, but it does mean I'll be even more skeptical about those kinds of claims.

In the Quran, God ask you several times to use your intelligence and wisdom. This goes to show that true religion cannot be opposed to true intelligence.

Are you saying there's no truereligion?

The fact is that most of those who parade their religiosity are really not religious while most who parade themselves as intellectuals are really not intelligent.

It may be true for religion, but annoyingly it's not often true for intellectuals. Most proud intellectuals, are more ofen than not annoyingly intelligent.

Apart from that, intelligence is a relative term. For example, a prof of physics could be a dumb of fashion. Lets take it that generally, truly religious people are not less intelligent than those who are not.

I agree.

KAG:

Never heard it from other christians,agnostics, deists etc.? I'm surprised.

Maybe from agnostics as well. But Christians, deists (never even met one) ?? Naah.

KAG:

They may, they may not, but I've given a "rational" explanation for why people believe they had/have visionary dreams.

Some people you mean?

KAG:

Then they aren't exact prophecies, and are not prophecies in my opinion.

Well then. You're entitled to it.

KAG:

So he was talking about this guy: Odunayo Olagbaju, member, Osun State House of Assembly, killed in Ile-Ife on December 21, 2001. (from http://www.nigerdeltacongress.com/particles/political_killings_in_the_presen.htm), and that's just from a quick google.

I said a notable person. I've never even heard of that guy you made reference to up there.

KAG:

This is a much clearer prophecy, "in December 2001, the minister for justice will be assassinated", or, a notable minister with the initials BI will be assassinated on the 23rd of December 2001.

I've never heard of prophecies that come this way. Prophecies are often delivered in a way that will make you figure it out yourself by the time it comes to pass. It'll then be like: "Ohh. . so this is what that man was talking about!". Geddit??

KAG:

By the way, how was the "prophecy" recorded, who heard it before the assassinations, and any evidence it was said before the assassinations? Also, how many prophecies on verage does the prophet make, and how many of them do come to pass?

I saw it at the back of an event program. There were many prophecies written there, some of which *I think* have come to pass. But I cant find the book anymore (since 2001). Another one I faintly remember is the prophecy about the wife of either a governor or president (can't really recall) that will die in the yr 2005. Remember OBJ lost his darling wife last year. The prophecies were many (over 50). . . even prophecies till 2008. I really wish I could still find that book!

KAG:

There usually is, people with supernatural beliefs though, are often dissatisfied with them, and require evidence approaching 99% "proof" (even that isn't good enough for some).

If I tell you I saw something, and I am very sure I saw that thing, (maybe I was the only one who saw it) and I know I wasn't hallucinating; it will so so impossible to convince me otherwise, no matter how hard you try to scientifically prove anything to me. THAT. . is the case with some people with supernatural beliefs.

goodguy:

KAG: This is a much clearer prophecy, "in December 2001, the minister for justice will be assassinated", or, a notable minister with the initials BI will be assassinated on the 23rd of December 2001.

I've never heard of prophecies that come this way. Prophecies are often delivered in a way that will make you figure it out yourself by the time it comes to pass. It'll then be like: "Ohh. . so this is what that man was talking about!". Geddit??

You mean prophecies are written in such a way that they approach a statistical probability of 1 to occur?

@ nferyn

I couldn't have put it better. That's the problem with some christian prophets and even Nostradamus, they make vague predictions. Recently, in breaking with the usual vague tradition, one of them actually predicted that inspite of not qualifying for world cup 2006, Nigeria will be at the mundial. I am skeptically awaiting this to pass.

In Islam, the prophesies of Muhammed (SAW) were accurately made and came to pass. So are still yet to pass, but they will. Example, when the persians and the romans were in battle of attrition, Muhammed (SAW) said the Romans were going to defeat the persians in seven years and it came to pass. At that time, it would have been inconceivable that it would happen. And he urged the Muslims to celebrate with the Romans because then some of them still believed in monotheism. Another was whe he predicted the fall of constantinople, and it's eventual liberation by Muslim forces. Constantinople is now Istanbul. What could be more accurate? There are so many predictions that actually came to pass. The list is endless.

@nferyn

Do you believe the islamice prophecies were accurate? Do you agree with ajia23?

@ mrlawng

What do you believe? Give reasons too.

@ajia23

read my ealier posts on this same thread and you'll see

Peace

@ mrlawng

I see,

mrlawng:

@nferyn
Do you believe the islamice prophecies were accurate? Do you agree with ajia23?

I have no idea. I don't know Islam enough. If one could give me an example, I could judge.

Religion and intelligence


These two are divergent nouns and so can not be put together. For the fact that someone displayed a kind of intelligence and believes in one form deity or the other does not mean that the two can go hand in hand. Let's look at simple problems in our today's society, the most profoundly educated as an intelligent persons in a society are the architects of our putrifying environment. I will expatiate in the near future.

goodguy:

Maybe from agnostics as well. But Christians, deists (never even met one) ?? Naah.

I have

Some people you mean?
Well then. You're entitled to it.

Most people, if not all. Indeed.

I said a notable person. I've never even heard of that guy you made reference to up there.
I've never heard of prophecies that come this way. Prophecies are often delivered in a way that will make you figure it out yourself by the time it comes to pass. It'll then be like: "Ohh. . so this is what that man was talking about!". Geddit??

He was notable enough to have been mentioned with the other bloke. So basically they are put so vaguely, that they are virtually useless until something seemingly similar happens, then the event is retroactively shoehorned to fit the "prophecy". Nostradamus would have been so proud.

I saw it at the back of an event program. There were many prophecies written there, some of which *I think* have come to pass. But I can't find the book anymore (since 2001). Another one I faintly remember is the prophecy about the wife of either a governor or president (can't really recall) that will die in the yr 2005. Remember OBJ lost his darling wife last year. The prophecies were many (over 50). . . even prophecies till 2008. I really wish I could still find that book!

Okay.

If I tell you I saw something, and I am very sure I saw that thing, (maybe I was the only one who saw it) and I know I wasn't hallucinating; it will so so impossible to convince me otherwise, no matter how hard you try to scientifically prove anything to me. THAT. . is the case with some people with supernatural beliefs.

If you saw something and others around you didn't, no matter how sure of its reality you are, chances are it still was a delusion. Some people who have had delusions were certain their hallucinations were real, until they were treated.

nferyn:

You mean prophecies are written in such a way that they approach a statistical probability of 1 to occur?

No, not at all. What I mean is this: You wouldn't need the prophet to confirm to you that his prophesy has come to pass. You'll figure it out yourself because it will be so obvious by then.

KAG:

He was notable enough to have been mentioned with the other bloke.

For the fact that I'm just hearing of the man for the first time, I don't regard him as 'notable'. Bola Ige was a man whose name wasn't strange at all to anyone in Nigeria - that is the type of 'notable' I mean.

KAG:

So basically they are put so vaguely, that they are virtually useless until something seemingly similar happens, then the event is retroactively shoehorned to fit the "prophecy". Nostradamus would have been so proud.

That depends on who declares the prohesy. A true prophet wouldn't beat about the bush. So. .  NO, he wouldn't put anything vaguely. As a matter of fact, prophecies are often declared clearly, but certain facts are often withheld as at the time it is being delivered, for reasons best known to God.

Example: A man was warned not to travel within a specified period of time. He didn't hearken and did otherwise. On his journey back home, he got involved in a ghastly motor accident and died instantly; and found in his pocket was the sheet of paper where the message/warning was written for him. [This is a True life story. The accident occured in December 25, 1998, My dad and sister were involved, and they were the only survivors too ].

Now, note that he was only told not to travel. He wasn't told he was going to have an accident. THAT. . is exactly what I mean.

KAG:

If you saw something and others around you didn't, no matter how sure of its reality you are, chances are it still was a delusion. Some people who have had delusions were certain their hallucinations were real, until they were treated.

It depends on what was going on when I saw it. The condition of things at that moment also count. Therefore, you can't just conclude that I was hallicinating.

@ Nferyn

Here are the examples I gave previously

In Islam, the prophesies of Muhammed (SAW) were accurately made and came to pass. So are still yet to pass, but they will. Example, when the persians and the romans were in battle of attrition, Muhammed (SAW) said the Romans were going to defeat the persians in seven years and it came to pass. At that time, it would have been inconceivable that it would happen. And he urged the Muslims to celebrate with the Romans because then some of them still believed in monotheism. Another was whe he predicted the fall of constantinople, and it's eventual liberation by Muslim forces. Constantinople is now Istanbul. What could be more accurate? There are so many predictions that actually came to pass. The list is endless.

For more, the Prophet of Islam also predicted that the ratio of girls to boys will approach 50 to 1 as time progressed. Now to show the accuracy of that prediction, at that time in Arabia, men far outnumbered the women, so it wasn't a trend then.
Now Latest UN world population statistics show that it is 11 women to 1 man. We will soon get to the mark.

goodguy:

No, not at all. What I mean is this: You wouldn't need the prophet to confirm to you that his prophesy has come to pass. You'll figure it out yourself because it will be so obvious by then.

Exactly, it's useless until you can retroactively fit an occurence to suit the prophecy.

For the fact that I'm just hearing of the man for the first time, I don't regard him as 'notable'. Bola Ige was a man whose name wasn't strange at all to anyone in Nigeria - that is the type of 'notable' I mean.

Well, I just heard of both of them for the first time. Something tells me, if Ige hadn't died, the other guy would have been used as the example of the fufilled prophecy.

That depends on who declares the prohesy. A true prophet wouldn't beat about the bush. So. . NO, he wouldn't put anything vaguely. As a matter of fact, prophecies are often declared clearly, but certain facts are often withheld as at the time it is being delivered, for reasons best known to God.

Once again, this is a clear prophecy: {Insert name here}, this is going to happen, on that day, in that year. It will also look like blah, blah. Vague prophecy? See below.

Example: A man was warned not to travel within a specified period of time. He didn't hearken and did otherwise. On his journey back home, he got involved in a ghastly motor accident and died instantly; and found in his pocket was the sheet of paper where the message/warning was written for him. [This is a True life story. The accident occured in December 25, 1998, My dad and sister were involved, and they were the only survivors too ].

Now, note that he was only told not to travel. He wasn't told he was going to have an accident. THAT. . is exactly what I mean.

When was the time period, how long was it, and who found the prophecy in his pocket? In fact why would he have it in his pocket?

It depends on what was going on when I saw it. The condition of things at that moment also count. Therefore, you can't just conclude that I was hallicinating.

Perhaps not. So, what kind of setting are we talking about?

ajia23:

@ Nferyn

Here are the examples I gave previously
"In Islam, the prophesies of Muhammed (SAW) were accurately made and came to pass. So are still yet to pass, but they will. Example, when the persians and the romans were in battle of attrition, Muhammed (SAW) said the Romans were going to defeat the persians in seven years and it came to pass. At that time, it would have been inconceivable that it would happen. And he urged the Muslims to celebrate with the Romans because then some of them still believed in monotheism. Another was whe he predicted the fall of constantinople, and it's eventual liberation by Muslim forces. Constantinople is now Istanbul. What could be more accurate? There are so many predictions that actually came to pass. The list is endless."

Could you give us the prophecy in its context.

For more, the Prophet of Islam also predicted that the ratio of girls to boys will approach 50 to 1 as time progressed. Now to show the accuracy of that prediction, at that time in Arabia, men far outnumbered the women, so it wasn't a trend then.
Now Latest UN world population statistics show that it is 11 women to 1 man. We will soon get to the mark.

Preemptively claiming fufillment of an unfufilled prediction? You don't see that too often. Could you provide that prophecy in its context too? Thanks in advance.

@ Kag, and Nferyn Check out these predictions.

These are verses from the Holy Quran Chapter 30 (The Romans) about the prediction,

2 ;The Romans have been defeated (by the Persians, in Syria - A.D. 615;
the Prophet Muhammad's sympathies were with the Romans who were
Christians, while the pagan Arabs were on the side of the Persians who
were idol worshippers)

3
in the neighboring land, but they, after this defeat, will soon be
victorious

4
within a few years. The command lies with Allah in the past instance as
well as in the future. On that day the believers will rejoice


5
for the victory of the Romans as well as their own victory against the
pagans with the help of Allah. He helps whom He pleases and He is the
All-Mighty, the Most Merciful.

6
This is the promise of Allah and Allah never breaks His promise; but
most people do not know.





The prediction made in the initial verses of this Surah is one of the most outstanding evidences of
the Quran's being the Word of Allah and the Holy Prophet Muhammad's being a true Messenger of
Allah. Let us have a look at the historical background relevant to the verses.

Eight years before the Holy Prophet's advent as a Prophet the Byzantine Emperor Maurice was
overthrown by Phocus, who captured the throne and became king. Phocus first got the Emperor's
five sons executed in front of him, and then got the Emperor also killed and hung their heads in a
thoroughfare in Constantinople. A few days after this he had the empress and her three
daughters also put to death. The event provided Khusrau Parvez, the Sassanid king of Iran; a
good moral excuse to attack Byzantium. For Emperor Maurice had been his benefactor; with his
help he had got the throne of Iran. Therefore, he declared that he would avenge his godfather's
and his children's murder upon Phocus, the usurper. So, he started war against Byzantium in 603
A. D. and within a few years, putting the Phocus armies to rout in succession, he reached Edessa
(modern, Urfa) in Asia Minor, on the one hand, and Aleppo and Antioch in Syria, on the other.
When the Byzantine ministers saw that Phocus could not save the country, they sought the
African governor's help, who sent his son, Heraclius, to Constantinople with a strong fleet.
Phocus was immediately deposed and Heraclius made emperor. He treated Phocus as he had
treated Maurice. This happened in 610 A.D., the year the Holy Prophet was appointed to
Prophethood.

The moral excuse for which Khusrau Parvez had started the war was no more valid after the
deposition and death of Phocus. Had the object of his war really been to avenge the murder of his
ally on Phocus for his cruelty, he would have come to terms with the new Emperor after the death
of Phocus. But he continued the war, and gave it the color of a crusade between Zoroastrianism
and Christianity. The sympathies of the Christian sects (i.e. Nestorians and Jacobians, etc.) which
had been excommunicated by the Roman ecclesiastical authority and tyrannized for years also
went with the Magian (Zoroastrian) invaders, and the Jews also joined hands with them; so much
so that the number of the Jews who enlisted in Khusrau's army rose up to 26,000.

Heraclius could not stop this storm. The very first news that he received from the East after
ascending the throne was that of the Iranian occupation of Antioch. After this Damascus fell in 613
A.D. Then in 614 A.D. the Iranians occupying Jerusalem played havoc with the Christian world.
Ninety thousand Christians were massacred and the Holy Sepulcher was desecrated. The Original
Cross on which, according to the Christian belief, Jesus had died was seized and carried to
Mada'in. The chief priest Zacharia was taken prisoner and all the important churches of the city
were destroyed. How puffed up was Khusrau Parvez at this victory can be judged from the letter
that he wrote to Heraclius from Jerusalem. He wrote: "From Khusrau, the greatest of all gods, the
master of the whole world : To Heraclius, his most wretched and most stupid servant: 'You say
that you have trust in your Lord. why didn't then your Lord save Jerusalem from me?'"

Within a year after this victory the Iranian armies over-ran Jordan, Palestine and the whole of the
Sinai Peninsula, and reached the frontiers of Egypt. In those very days another conflict of a far
greater historical consequence was going on in Makkah. The believers in One God, under the
leadership of the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's peace be upon him), were fighting for their
existence against the followers of shirk under the command of the chiefs of the Quraish, and the
conflict had reached such a stage that in 615 A.D., a substantial number of the Muslims had to
leave their homes and take refuge with the Christian kingdom of Habash, which was an ally of the
Byzantine Empire. In those days the Sassanid victories against Byzantium were the talk of the
town, and the pagans of Makkah were delighted and were taunting the Muslims to the effect:
"Look the fire worshipers of Iran are winning victories and the Christian believers in Revelation
and Prophethood are being routed everywhere. Likewise, we, the idol worshipers of Arabia, will
exterminate you and your religion."

These were the conditions when this Surah of the Quran was sent down, and in it a prediction
was made, saying:"The Romans have been vanquished in the neighbouring land and within a few
years after their defeat, they shall be victorious. And it will be the day when the believers will
rejoice in the victory granted by Allah." It contained not one but two predictions: First, the
Romans shall be Victorious; and second, the Muslims also shall win a victory at the same time.
Apparently, there was not a remote chance of the fulfillment of the either prediction in the next
few years. On the one hand, there were a handful of the Muslims, who were being beaten and
tortured in Makkah, and even till eight years after this prediction there appeared no chance of
their victory and domination. On the other, the Romans were losing more and more ground every
next day. By 619 A.D. the whole of Egypt had passed into Sassanid hands and the Magian armies
had reached as far as Tripoli. In Asia Minor they beat and pushed back the Romans to Bosporus,
and in 617 A.D. they captured Chalcedon (modern, Kadikoy) just opposite Constantinople. The
Emperor sent an envoy to Khusrau, praying that he was ready to have peace on any terms, but
he replied, "I shall not give protection to the emperor until he is brought in chains before me and
gives up obedience to his crucified god and adopts submission to the fire god." At last, the
Emperor became so depressed by defeat that he decided to leave Constantinople and shift to
Carthage (modern, Tunis). In short, as the British historian Gibbon says, even seven to eight years
after this prediction of the Quran, the conditions were such that no one could even imagine that
the Byzantine Empire would ever gain an upper hand over Iran. Not to speak of gaining
domination, no one could hope that the Empire, under the circumstances, would even survive.

When these verses of the Quran were sent down, the disbelievers of Makkah made great fun of
them, and Ubayy bin Khalaf bet Hadrat Abu Bakr ten camels if the Romans became victorious
within three years. When the Holy Prophet came to know of the bet, he said, "The Quran has used
the words bid i sinin, and the word bid in Arabic applies to a number up to ten. Therefore, make
the bet for ten years and increase the number of camels to a hundred." So, Hadrat Abu Bakr
spoke to Ubayy again and bet a hundred camels for ten years.

In 622 A.D. as the Holy Prophet migrated to Madinah, the Emperor Heraclius set off quietly for
Trabzon from Constantinople via the Black Sea and started preparations to attack Iran from
rear. For this he asked the Church for money, and Pope Sergius lent him the Church collections on
interest, in a bid to save Christianity from Zoroastrianism. Heraclius started his counter attack in
623 A.D. from Armenia. Next year, in 624 A.D., he entered Azerbaijan and destroyed Clorumia, the
birthplace of Zoroaster, and ravaged the principal fire temple of Iran. Great are the powers of
Allah, this was the very year when the Muslims achieved a decisive victory at Badr for the first time
against the mushriks. Thus both the predictions made in Surah Rum were fulfilled
simultaneously within the stipulated period of ten years.

The Byzantine forces continued to press the Iranians hard and in the decisive battle at Nineveh
(627 A.D.) they dealt them the hardest blow. They captured the royal residence of Dastagerd, and
then pressing forward reached right opposite to Ctesiphon, capital of Iran in those days. In 628 A.
D. in an internal revolt, Khusrau Parvez was imprisoned and 18 of his sons were executed in front
of him and a few days later he himself died in the prison. This was the year when the peace treaty
of Hudaibiya was concluded, which the Quran has termed as "the supreme victory", and in this
very year Khusrau's son, Qubad II, gave up all the occupied Roman territories, restored the True
Cross and made peace with Byzantium. In 628 A.D., the Emperor himself went to Jerusalem to
instal the "Holy Cross" in its place, and in the same year the Holy Prophet entered Makkah for the
first time after the Hijrah to perform the Umrah-tul-Qada.

After this no one could have any doubt about the truth of the prophecy of the Quran, with the
result that most of the Arab polytheists accepted Islam. The heirs of Ubayy bin Khalaf lost their bet
and had to give a hundred camels to Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddiq. He took them before the Holy
Prophet, who ordered that they be given away in charity, because the bet had been made at a
time when gambling had not yet been forbidden by the Shariah; now it was forbidden. Therefore,
the bet was allowed to be accepted from the belligerent disbelievers, but instruction given that it
should be given away in charity and should not be brought in personal use.


More later,

@ original question
I don't think religion always serves as a substitute for intelligence, but, unfortunately, that is the case among many Nigerians. People are too drenched with that mentality of using religion for everything. It is disturbing when I hear even well educated Naijas still talk about "Mrs. Labgaja is doing mr. samedo" or "somebody has put a curse on this one". It hinders intellectual growth in no small amount, IMO. A few months ago, I read about an 11 year old boy that was beaten to death cause he was accused of trying to use someone's child to make money. Right now, I'll say our religions and superstitious beliefs does more damage than good.

Wow, I totally forgot about this thread!

KAG:

Exactly, it's useless until you can retroactively fit an occurence to suit the prophecy.

You don't get it, do you? 

KAG:

Well, I just heard of both of them for the first time. Something tells me, if Ige hadn't died, the other guy would have been used as the example of the fufilled prophecy.

Well, if Ige wasn't going to die, the prophecy wouldn't have been delivered at all.

KAG:

Once again, this is a clear prophecy: {Insert name here}, this is going to happen, on that day, in that year. It will also look like blah, blah. Vague prophecy? See below.

A herbalist should be in the best position to do this type of trick for you.

KAG:

When was the time period, how long was it, and who found the prophecy in his pocket? In fact why would he have it in his pocket?

All I know is that it was found in his pocket.  I do not know why he would have it in his pocket and I do not know the time period of the warning prior to the incidence.  The important thing here is that he didn't heed to the warning, and something tragic happened to him.

KAG:

Perhaps not. So, what kind of setting are we talking about?

How do you expect me to explain that?  It is only best known to the one who experiences such.