Ihedinobi: Yet another silly thread. Smh.

yet another silly comment

Wahala90: It is difficult to argue with an atheist because he would have no reason to tell the truth.

I don't understand. Are you saying that your primary reason for telling the truth is that you're afraid of being cast into hell fire for lying? What happened to basic human decency & principles?

Seun:
I don't understand. Are you saying that your primary reason for telling the truth is that you're afraid of being cast into hell fire for lying? What happened to basic human decency & principles?

Well said Seun; no mind the fickle minded guy

Seun:
I don't understand. Are you saying that your primary reason for telling the truth is that you're afraid of being cast into hell fire for lying? What happened to basic human decency & principles?

What exactly are these basic human decency & principles and why must anyone or everyone adhere to them?

Mr_Anony: What exactly are these basic human decency & principles and why must anyone or everyone adhere to them?

Things people generally consider to be desirable traits. Like honesty, kindness, fairness, hard work. I never said everyone must adhere to them.

Seun:
Things people generally consider to be desirable traits. Like honesty, kindness, fairness, hard work. I never said everyone must adhere to them.

Good, now you will begin to appreciate the point he is making. . . . . . . .For most religious people, God makes it a must for them to be honest, fair, kind etc. For the atheist, there is no such authority mandating these things so he/she has neither incentive nor compulsion to adhere to them.

Mr_Anony:
Good, now you will begin to appreciate the point he is making. . . . . . . .For most religious people, God makes it a must for them to be honest, fair, kind etc. For the atheist, there is no such authority mandating these things so he/she has neither incentive nor compulsion to adhere to them.

So Mr_Anony you're saying you're like a kid? you can't work without supervision and need an incentive or compulsion to do the right thing? The fear of hell fire whips you in line eh? Now clap for yourself and go take a cookie from the cookie jar and some warm milk.

Mr_Anony: For most religious people, God makes it a must for them to be honest, fair, kind etc.

That's simply not true. Most armed robbers, kidnappers, suicide bombers, dictators, scammers, and corrupt politicians in Nigeria are religious, so it's clear that God is not making positive behaviour a "must" in any practical sense.

For Christians in particular, the fear of hell fire is not sufficient to compel them to behave decently because all they have to do is confess their sins before their die in order to escape hell, regardless of their prior actions. You can steal, kill, lie, cheat, and be wicked to people, and then when you're in any life-threatening situation, just shout "Jesus forgive me" and you're good. How does that enforce good behaviour?

I think good behaviour comes from two main things: law enforcement & values. Obviously, people will behave themselves if they know that failure to do so will likely result in an arrest, prosecution, and jail-time. However, even a good legal system won't dissuade people from doing bad things if they know they won't be caught (naija syndrome), or if their bad behaviour is not illegal.

But what prevents you from doing a bad thing when you know you won't be caught or when the bad thing you want to do is not illegal? Values. By values, I mean our deeply held beliefs about how we should treat our fellow men. That's what makes people do the right thing when there is no one watching.

There is no question about the fact that some few people, aka "true Christians" and "true Muslims" are motivated to do good for religious reasons. But there are very few of them, and majority of them are the very same people who would have done good even if they did not believe in God.

I think basic human decency comes from your upbringing and temperament. If your parents teach you to value things like hard work, honesty, & fairness while you're young, you are likely grow up into a decent human being. Apart from that, certain people are just naturally conscientious; they always want to do the right thing. It doesn't have much to do with religion.

Seun:
That's simply not true. Most armed robbers, kidnappers, suicide bombers, dictators, scammers, and corrupt politicians in Nigeria are religious, so it's clear that God is not making positive behaviour a "must" in any practical sense.

For Christians in particular, the fear of hell fire is not sufficient to compel them to behave decently because all they have to do is confess their sins before their die in order to escape hell, regardless of their prior actions. You can steal, kill, lie, cheat, and be wicked to people, and then when you're in any life-threatening situation, just shout "Jesus forgive me" and you're good. How does that enforce good behaviour?

I think good behaviour comes from two main things: law enforcement & values. Obviously, people will behave themselves if they know that failure to do so will likely result in an arrest, prosecution, and jail-time. However, even a good legal system won't dissuade people from doing bad things if they know they won't be caught (naija syndrome), or if their bad behaviour is not illegal.

But what prevents you from doing a bad thing when you know you won't be caught or when the bad thing you want to do is not illegal? Values. By values, I mean our deeply held beliefs about how we should treat our fellow men. That's what makes people do the right thing when there is no one watching.

There is no question about the fact that some few people, aka "true Christians" and "true Muslims" are motivated to do good for religious reasons. But there are very few of them, and majority of them are the very same people who would have done good even if they did not believe in God. People with good values. Like Tai Solarin.

I think basic human decency comes from your upbringing and temperament. If your parents teach you to value things like hard work, honesty, & fairness while you're young, you are likely grow up into a decent human being. Apart from that, certain people are just naturally conscientious; they always want to do the right thing. It doesn't have much to do with religion.

@ emphasized text. You are very wrong. People have choices and have the right to do and not to do. Your forum is moderated with strict rules, yet people choose to disobey the rules and give the moderators more work. Can we then say Seun osewa the 'god' of NL is not making positive behaviour a "must" in any practical sense on NL.

toba: @ emphasized text. You are very wrong. People have choices and have the right to do and not to do. Your forum is moderated with strict rules, yet people choose to disobey the rules and give the moderators more work. Can we then say Seun osewa the 'god' of NL is not making positive behaviour a "must" in any practical sense on NL.

If there was no enforcement of the strict rules, then yes, it would be correct to say I'm not "making positive behaviour a must" on Nairaland. The bible threatens 'sinners' with hell fire - but only if they don't beg for forgiveness before they die. That's weak. That's why it's not effective.

Seun:
If there was no enforcement of the strict rules, then yes, it would be correct to say I'm not "making positive behaviour a must" on Nairaland. The bible threatens 'sinners' with hell fire - but only if they don't beg for forgiveness before they die. That's weak. That's why it's not effective.

No sir. You seem not to fully understand what the bible says about sinners. firstly, its not all sins that are forgiveable.
here are some texts that supports my assertion
A. ( Matthew 12:31-32 ) - "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come."

---

Lets look at the latter part of the text. Like the atheist do. They insult christians and Jesus. Jesus said (according to the above text) that he will forgive them for calling him names, but wouldnt forgive them for a sin against the holy spirit never.

B. ( Mark 3:29 ) - "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.

---

Mark also says the same thing. Liken this to the state law. If a Nigerian kills another, he would go to jail for it or be hanged. If a Nigerian steals from another, he may be jailed or pardoned. Same rule applies. A christian who willfully sins may or may not be forgiven, depending on how gravious the sin is.

The bible also give credence to the state law. Romans 13:1 "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God". Right here on NL, christians are supposed to obey the rules.

When it comes to 'enforcement' God will not choose a moderator to enforce those rules like we have here, giving time and chance to the sinners to repent. Thats why he's the almighty and the unquestionable.

In our real world, people still commit crimes despite the consequences. Reason being that they may or may not be caught. In God's case, you'll always be caught, but may not be punished instantly. This doesnt give an automatic ticket for sinners to continue sinning.

Romans 6 vs 1: What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

Logicboy03:

Commot for road, gay christian

obadiah777: YES I AM GAY, HAPPY THAT IS

gay [gey] Show IPA
adjective, gay·er, gay·est.

3.
having or showing a merry, lively mood: gay spirits; gay music. Synonyms: cheerful, gleeful, happy, glad, cheery, lighthearted, joyous, joyful, jovial; sunny, lively, vivacious, sparkling; chipper, playful,

obadiah777: HOW WAS THE DATE ? DID YOU BUY EACH OTHER FLOWERS AND TREAT EACH OTHER TO FIVE COURSE MEALS IN A ZAGAT RATED RESTAURANT ? OKO TI YAWO

[size=28pt]LMFAO![/size]

God's a dictator. Nothing's good without him.. Any deviations from his will is evil. It doesn't matter if that 'deviation' seems right in man's heart/conscience...

Summary of the bullshit Xtians will continue to peddle, while men fleece people on the pulpit and God watches.

*Kails*:



[size=28pt]LMFAO![/size]

Silly girl! That's the kind of thing you like

Seun:
That's simply not true. Most armed robbers, kidnappers, suicide bombers, dictators, scammers, and corrupt politicians in Nigeria are religious, so it's clear that God is not making positive behaviour a "must" in any practical sense.

I'm afraid you are wrong here, the characters you mentioned are clearly breaking God's laws....unless your idea of a must is God taking away freewill and forcing people to act without choice like robots. If this happens, then whatever they do cannot possibly be good because for it to be good or bad, the perpetrator must have chosen to do it.

For Christians in particular, the fear of hell fire is not sufficient to compel them to behave decently because all they have to do is confess their sins before their die in order to escape hell, regardless of their prior actions. You can steal, kill, lie, cheat, and be wicked to people, and then when you're in any life-threatening situation, just shout "Jesus forgive me" and you're good. How does that enforce good behaviour?

I perceive you have the wrong understanding of Christianity. A Christian is not someone who serves God because he/she fears hell and Jesus is not the sinner's cop-out.
A Christian is someone who was previously going to get punished in hell for his sins and then he heard that someone had paid the price of sin for him and borne the punishment he should have deserved. In gratitude, he accepts that the gift of freedom from his saviour and lives the rest of his life in honour of that sacrifice. His good behaviour is not something "enforced" but rather it is something because the christian loves the saviour and will not want his death to be in vain.

I think good behaviour comes from two main things: law enforcement & values. Obviously, people will behave themselves if they know that failure to do so will likely result in an arrest, prosecution, and jail-time. However, even a good legal system won't dissuade people from doing bad things if they know they won't be caught (naija syndrome), or if their bad behaviour is not illegal.

I agree with this.

But what prevents you from doing a bad thing when you know you won't be caught or when the bad thing you want to do is not illegal? Values. By values, I mean our deeply held beliefs about how we should treat our fellow men. That's what makes people do the right thing when there is no one watching.

While I agree with people having values, I hold that the strength of a person's values depends heavily on the things or the persons he holds dear i.e. his faith in them. For example His love and faith in God would make him to never want to fail God. His love and faith in his parents will make him to never want to fail them, His love and faith in his wife will make him to never want to let her down e.t.c.
If a man's faith is only in himself, he may have values but they will only be selfish values that allow him to get ahead and therefore cannot necessarily be classified as good values. Basically, the point here is that for someone to be good, he must derive his/her values from something outside of himself in which he trusts wholeheartedly.

There is no question about the fact that some few people, aka "true Christians" and "true Muslims" are motivated to do good for religious reasons. But there are very few of them, and majority of them are the very same people who would have done good even if they did not believe in God. People with good values. Like Tai Solarin.

Good. I hope you do realize that by talking about true Christians and true Muslims here, you are essentially saying that those who do evil against God are fake christians and muslims and therefore are not Christians and Muslims

I think basic human decency comes from your upbringing and temperament. If your parents teach you to value things like hard work, honesty, & fairness while you're young, you are likely grow up into a decent human being. Apart from that, certain people are just naturally conscientious; they always want to do the right thing. It doesn't have much to do with religion.

Not true. No one is "naturally coscientious". Also there is a difference between wanting to do the right thing and actually doing the right thing.

@toba what I said earlier was correct. Lying, stealing, rape, murder, 419, terrorism, corruption, torture, and even human trafficking are forgiveable sins. As long as you don't insult the holy spirit, you can ask for forgiveness 5 minutes before your death and they will all be wiped away. As a Christian, if divine retribution is your primary reason for doing good, then its not a very compelling reason. Perhaps thats why so many Nigerian Christians do bad things regularly.

You claim that willful sin may not be forgiven depending on its gravity. I think that's just not biblical. Apart from the so_called sin against the holy spirit, all other sins are forgivable in the new testament...

Seun: @toba what I said earlier was correct. Lying, stealing, rape, murder, 419, terrorism, corruption, torture, and even human trafficking are forgiveable sins. As long as you don't insult the holy spirit, you can ask for forgiveness 5 minutes before your death and they will all be wiped away. As a Christian, if divine retribution is your primary reason for doing good, then its not a very compelling reason. Perhaps thats why so many Nigerian Christians do bad things regularly.

You claim that willful sin may not be forgiven depending on its gravity. I think that's just not biblical. Apart from the so_called sin against the holy spirit, all other sins are forgivable in the new testament...

My friend, as I said earlier, you have a very poor understanding of what Christ's sacrifice is all about and as a result, you are misrepresenting the concept of redemption/forgiveness of sin.

This is where I joined the discussion:

Wahala90: It is difficult to argue with an atheist because he would have no reason to tell the truth.

I think I have convinced you that many atheists - those who value honesty - have many reasons to tell the truth. And that there's no reason to believe that the majority of people who identify themselves as Christians on this forum or elsewhere are more honest than the atheists on this forum or elsewhere, since most people who identify themselves as Christians are not "true Christians".

Mr_Anony:
My friend, as I said earlier, you have a very poor understanding of what Christ's sacrifice is all about and as a result, you are misrepresenting the concept of redemption/forgiveness of sin.

Are you saying that the sins listed cannot be forgiven? What do you think the concept of redemption/forgiveness of sin is? I ask because there are so many of them out there and I"m curious about the one you espouse.

Seun: This is where I joined the discussion:
I think I have convinced you that many atheists - those who value honesty - have many reasons to tell the truth.

Actually, you haven't because all you've done is tell us that some atheists value honesty. What we haven't heard is why honesty ought to be valued by an atheist.

And that there's no reason to believe that the majority of people who identify themselves as Christians on this forum or elsewhere are more honest than the atheists on this forum or elsewhere, since most people who identify themselves as Christians are not "true Christians".

This has never been in dispute

thehomer:

Are you saying that the sins listed cannot be forgiven? What do you think the concept of redemption/forgiveness of sin is? I ask because there are so many of them out there and I"m curious about the one you espouse.

This is what I said to him earlier:-

Mr_Anony:
I perceive you have the wrong understanding of Christianity. A Christian is not someone who serves God because he/she fears hell and Jesus is not the sinner's cop-out.
A Christian is someone who was previously going to get punished in hell for his sins and then he heard that someone had paid the price of sin for him and borne the punishment he should have deserved. In gratitude, he accepts that the gift of freedom from his saviour and lives the rest of his life in honour of that sacrifice. His good behaviour is not something "enforced" but rather it is something done because the christian loves the saviour and will not want his death to be in vain.

Mr_Anony: This has never been in dispute

It was in dispute. The statement "It is difficult to argue with an atheist because he would have no reason to tell the truth" was meant to imply that it's less difficult to argue with religious people because they are more truthful. Since most religious people are not "true Christians", that's not true. I'm glad that we are in agreement concerning this issue.

Mr_Anony: What we haven't heard is why honesty ought to be valued by an atheist.

I can give you 5 reasons why honesty should be valued by human beings:
1) Honesty is fair. You don't want others to be dishonest with you, so why should you be dishonest with others?
2) When you are consistently honest, people tend to trust you. This makes them more likely to hire or do business with you.
3) Being dishonest in your professional life is fraud; it can land you in prison and tarnish your family's reputation.
4) Telling the truth makes life less stressful because you don't have to keep track of which lies you've told which person.
5) Being honest can make you feel good about yourself, especially when your honesty is commended by other people.

Mr_Anony:

This is what I said to him earlier:-

What you gave below is your own conception of what it means to be a Christian and I'm perfectly willing to meet you on your own terms although I think you've misstated some things so I'll need some clarification to be more certain on where you're coming from.

Mr_Anony:
. . .
A Christian is someone who was previously going to get punished in hell for his sins and then he heard that someone had paid the price of sin for him and borne the punishment he should have deserved.

I thought that according to the religion, all people were going to be punished. The punishment wasn't necessarily for their sins but for that of their supposed ancestors.

Mr_Anony:
In gratitude, he accepts that the gift of freedom from his saviour and lives the rest of his life in honour of that sacrifice. His good behaviour is not something "enforced" but rather it is something done because the christian loves the saviour and will not want his death to be in vain.

We're talking about different things. You're saying that the Christian won't want to commit evil acts. The question is if evil acts are committed, will they be forgiven? This means that you're evading the question that I think is a simple yes or no since we know that Christians do commit evil acts for whatever reason they may wish to give.

Seun:
It was in dispute. The statement "It is difficult to argue with an atheist because he would have no reason to tell the truth" was meant to imply that it's less difficult to argue with religious people because they are more truthful. Since most religious people are not "true Christians", that's not true. I'm glad that we are in agreement concerning this issue.

No it was never in dispute. I don't see any reason why one would insist that a person is religious if such a person is not practicing his/her religion

I can give you 5 reasons why honesty should be valued by human beings:
1) Honesty is fair. You don't want others to be dishonest with you, so why should you be dishonest with others?
2) When you are consistently honest, people tend to trust you. This makes them more likely to hire or do business with you.
3) Being dishonest in your professional life is fraud; it can land you in prison and tarnish your family's reputation.
4) Telling the truth makes life less stressful because you don't have to keep track of which lies you've told which person.
5) Being honest can make you feel good about yourself, especially when your honesty is commended by other people.

From the reasons you gave, honesty is not of high moral value. The reasons you have given are reasons of convenience rather than principle. For instance, none of the reasons you gave will make a man insist on telling the truth even if he is going to get killed for telling it.
If a person is only being honest because it is convenient, how can such a person be trusted to always tell the truth no matter what?

^^^
Ironically, Abraham did the same to save his wife. Maybe, he also wasn't a good practitioner of his religion.

musKeeto: ^^^
Ironically, Abraham did the same to save his wife. Maybe, he also wasn't a good practitioner of his religion.

this boy, be careful, i have a very big cane to spank your bumbum.
Lol.

You are making Annony's work more difficult.

truthislight:

this boy, be careful, i have a very big cane to spank your bumbum.
Lol.

You are making Annony's work more difficult.

you think it is Anony's work?

Image123:
you think it is Anony's work?

you have came to look at my trouble oh!

I was with my pop corn seated by the corner watching befor you called me out.

Annony did not.

By the way, do you know the relationship between sarah and Abraham?

Do you know how they use to marry those days? Lol.

I dont wish to go into details, how/whom did Abraham's son marry ?

^^^ that is the line i had wanted to

musKeeto: ^^^
Ironically, Abraham did the same to save his wife. Maybe, he also wasn't a good practitioner of his religion.

All you have to do now is tell me what Abraham's religion is.

Mr_Anony:
All you have to do now is tell me what Abraham's religion is.

So Abraham was an atheist?