plaetton:

And I suppose you have a spirito-meter to detect when spirit has departed from the body?
I can hear a christian saying " No no, he is not dead yet, bring the spirito-meter and lets see if the spirit has departed" lol

The worst thing is that he expects his definitions to be binding on his oppoent

Atheist:-D:


Ok. So what does the bible teach? The bible is open to multiple interpretations.

Also, there is an understanding that God is directly or indirectly responsible for all things. Is that true?

Briefly:
1. God created humans with a special gift called 'free-will.' Humans have been utilizing this gift in making choices ever since our first parents decided they wanted independence from Him.

2. When Humans choose to use their free will to do evil God does not stop them. It would not truly be 'free will' if he stops us each time we want to do something he does not agree with.


3. Sometimes a person misuses his free will and others get hurt. Sometimes it is just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 - The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance befall them all.

Humans have chosen a path of independence from God. We can't turn around and blame Him when we reap the fruitage.

honeychild:
Briefly:
1. God created humans with a special gift called 'free-will.' Humans have been utilizing this gift in making choices ever since our first parents decided they wanted independence from Him.

2. When Humans choose to use their free will to do evil God does not stop them. It would not truly be 'free will' if he stops us each time we want to do something he does not agree with.


3. Sometimes a person misuses his free will and others get hurt. Sometimes it is just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 - The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance befall them all.

Humans have chosen a path of independence from God. We can't turn around and blame Him when we reap the fruitage.

So someone gets punished for the sins of others... how is that fair?

So God cannot protect his own? How is He GOD?

How do you explain natural disasters?

Atheist:-D:


So someone gets punished for the sins of others... how is that fair

When you make choices you have to live with the consequences. Humankind in general have chosen to be independent from God. Even those of us shouting about how much we love God...are we really allowing him to decide how we live our lives? Forget all these people here screaming about being led by the Spirit - do they live by his Standards of morality?

Anyway not to get sidetracked.. the Bible says that when Adam and Eve chose independence from God, he left them and their offspring (me and you) to make whatever we want to make of our independence.

I am sure you can agree with me that we have not done such a good job of it.

Atheist:-D:


So God cannot protect his own? How is He GOD?

He is God because He created the earth and all that is in it. Unlike a lot of Christians here, I do not believe God has promised that he will protect his worshippers completely from every misfortune.

Early in man's history, God was accused of employing bribery to get Humans to worship him.

Satan: Does Job fear God for nothing? You have blessed him and protected him......threaten a man's life and see if he will not curse You to Your face. - Job chapter 1 & 2.

So to put that accusation to rest God will not protect his Servants from calamity. They have to go through what every other person goes through.

1Corinthians 10: 13-15:
No temptation ( or test ) has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tried beyond what you can bear. But when you are tested he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

So what God promises his worshippers is the FORTITUDE to endure tragedy... not protection from all tragedy.

honeychild:
When you make choices you have to live with the consequences. Humankind in general have chosen to be independent from God. Even those of us shouting about how much we love God...are we really allowing him to decide how we live our lives? Forget all these people here screaming about being led by the Spirit - do they live by his Standards of morality?

Anyway not to get sidetracked.. the Bible says that when Adam and Eve chose independence from God, he left them and their offspring (me and you) to make whatever we want to make of our independence.

I am sure you can agree with me that we have not done such a good job of it.

So if I was a loving, caring, god fearing Xtian but shared the same class as a devil worshipper I stand the risk of being punished for the demon worshippers sins? Is this fair? If not then God is not just.

Whatever Adam and Eve did is irrelevant!!!!! Christ died to wash away our sins and hence this should not apply.

Atheist:-D:


How do you explain natural disasters?

In a world ruled by the Just, Powerful Creator (I.e the world envisaged by God when he put the man and his wife there) there would be no natural disasters. God would intervene to prevent any accidents from happening.

In a world overrun by wilful and arrogant creatures who reject his Guidance why would He intervene to stop natural disasters? We Humans have made our beds. We have to lie on it.

honeychild:
He is God because He created the earth and all that is in it. Unlike a lot of Christians her[b]e, I do not believe God has promised that he will protect his worshippers completely from every misfortune[/b].

Early in man's history, God was accused of employing bribery to get Humans to worship him.

Satan: Does Job fear God for nothing? You have blessed him and protected him......threaten a man's life and see if he will not curse You to Your face. - Job chapter 1 & 2.

So to put that accusation to rest God will not protect his Servants from calamity. They have to go through what every other person goes through.

1Corinthians 10: 13-15:
No temptation ( or test ) has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tried beyond what you can bear. But when you are tested he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

So what God promises his worshippers is the FORTITUDE to endure tragedy... not protection from all tragedy.

If so then now I know why a lot Xtians in Nig rely on rhe double dutch style of spiritual protection.... God and other fetish things combined

Atheist:-D:




So if I was a loving, caring, god fearing Xtian but shared the same class as a devil worshipper I stand the risk of being punished for the demon worshippers sins? Is this fair? If not then God is not just.

Whatever Adam and Eve did is irrelevant!!!!! Christ died to wash away our sins and hence this should not apply.

You call being in an accident a punishment. Who is doing the punishing? God has not started doing any judging or punishment yet....whatever happens to me or you right now is not a punishment. It is just a consequences of decisions made by humans.

As for Jesus dying to wash away our sins, we have not yet started to enjoy all the benefits of Christ's death. For now all we have are the spiritual benefits. I can talk to God without needing a priest or sacrificing a lamb today because Jesus died. The physical aspects - perfection, freedom from poverty, sickness and pain and all problems... that is still some time into the future.

@honeychild: great sermon..

honeychild:

You call being in an accident a punishment. Who is doing the punishing? God has not started doing any judging or punishment yet....whatever happens to me or you right now is not a punishment. It is just a consequences of decisions made by humans.

As for Jesus dying to wash away our sins, we have not yet started to enjoy all the benefits of Christ's death. For now all we have are the spiritual benefits. I can talk to God without needing a priest or sacrificing a lamb today because Jesus died. The physical aspects - perfection, freedom from poverty, sickness and pain and all problems... that is still some time into the future.

So God does not punish ppl on earth?? What about Sodom and Gomorrah?

Isnt God responsible by design for all things? Can God not protect his beloved flock? If not then the bible is false. If He can then how do you explain the deaths of believers in these type of situations?

In regards to Christ washing away our sins.... that was 2000 years ago!!!!! At one point will we start enjoying the rewards

In summation, you are stating that Xtians are no better off or worse in the physical sense than their counterparts. In this world they are just as susceptible as anyone else to harm, illness etc. That appears to be correct. So how do you explain the bibles stance that God protects us in this earth from harm? Also, so many pastors offer protection through prayer etc. Why bother if it will not work?

Atheist:-D:


So God does not punish ppl on earth?? What about Sodom and Gomorrah

When God punished in the Bible, there was always
1. a warning given
2. an opportunity given for people to change their way s
3. a clear distinction between those who serve God and the wicked as well as a provision for survival.

Noah's day, Sodom and Gomorrah, Egypt in Pharaohs' day, even the stubborn children of Israel in Jeremiah's day.

Which is why I say the evils we see today are not a judgement from God. Just signs of a world gone crazy.

Atheist:-D:


Isnt God responsible by design for all things?

if I design a knife for use in cutting vegetables and you use it to stab your wife in a fit of anger will any right thinking person blame me for that? Especially if I enclosed with the knife clear directions on how to use it safely and on the dangers of misusing it?

Atheist:-D:


In regards to Christ washing away our sins.... that was 2000 years ago!!!!! At one point will we start enjoying the rewards

Be patient my bro.....you cannot rush God..

Atheist:-D:


Also, so many pastors offer protection through prayer etc. Why bother if it will not work?

Which is why it doesn't work....and you will not find me going to any such false prophet with their false promises.

@ musKeeto
Thank you.

christians need to view life more from a humanist angle than spiritual and then he will notice all our problems are just . . . human

honeychild:
When God punished in the Bible, there was always
1. a warning given
2. an opportunity given for people to change their way s
3. a clear distinction between those who serve God and the wicked as well as a provision for survival.

Noah's day, Sodom and Gomorrah, Egypt in Pharaohs' day, even the stubborn children of Israel in Jeremiah's day.

Which is why I say the evils we see today are not a judgement from God. Just signs of a world gone crazy.

I dont understand the bolded part. How has the world gone crazy? Has God lost control? Is the world any less crazy than it was 1000 or 2000 years ago... or even 50 years ago?

In regards to your 3 points can we be sure the righteous received these warnings? How do we know they didnt respond? There is no way to know these things. Again in the bible God mentioned to Abraham that he would never destroy a city if it had up to 1 righteous person there. That can be expressed to mean any natural disaster would only claim the lives of the non righteous. Does that mean that all those who died in hurricane Katrina etc were non righteous?

honeychild:
if I design a knife for use in cutting vegetables and you use it to stab your wife in a fit of anger will any right thinking person blame me for that? Especially if I enclosed with the knife clear directions on how to use it safely and on the dangers of misusing it?

Not good enough a description. If I was mentally unstable and you gave me the knife you would be held accountable. We are so different in intellect, ages, religious backgrounds etc that clearly no one law/rule can ever fit all. If God designed me to be an Atheist then I would end up being one. Why would I be punished for something I was designed to be? How can a designer be absolved from the flaws of their design?

honeychild:
Be patient my bro.....you cannot rush God..

Patience

We dont know if the world will end tomorrow so how much longer do we have to wait?

honeychild:
Which is why it doesn't work....and you will not find me going to any such false prophet with their false promises.

The bible promises the same things. So if the pastors are wrong what about the bible?

honeychild:

In a world ruled by the Just, Powerful Creator (I.e the world envisaged by God when he put the man and his wife there) there would be no natural disasters. God would intervene to prevent any accidents from happening.

In a world overrun by wilful and arrogant creatures who reject his Guidance why would He intervene to stop natural disasters? We Humans have made our beds. We have to lie on it.

I just want you to note, I don't recall any talking snake encouraging me to eat any fruits. What sort of petty, vengeful creature would condemn a race of beings he created himself for eating....fruits? Whatever that is supposed to metaphorically mean, ie, if you want to pull a buzugee. I thought they were supposed to be good for you and nutritious. Or was he saving it for himself and that just happened to be the only tree availabele? Add onto that that the god is also supposedly omnipotent and omniscient.

Lol

wiegraf:

I just want you to note, I don't recall any talking snake encouraging me to eat any fruits. What sort of petty, vengeful creature would condemn a race of beings he created himself for eating....fruits? Whatever that is supposed to metaphorically mean, ie, if you want to pull a buzugee. I thought they were supposed to be good for you and nutritious. Or was he saving it for himself and that just happened to be the only tree availabele? Add onto that that the god is also supposedly omnipotent and omniscient.

Lol

Me neither. I never met no talking snake (or any snake for that matter).

Also, Adams sins are irrelevant because Christ died to wash our sins away. This means no sin from Adam is acting on us. The only problem is that we are still waiting for the washing away of the sins to take effect..... after 2000 years

Atheist:-D:


I dont understand the bolded part. How has the world gone crazy? Has God lost control?

One thing a lot of people do not understand is that the issues in Eden went beyond simple obedience or disobedience on the part of Adam.
When Satan led Adam and Eve into sinning against God, he was really leading a rebellion. In effect Satan was saying: God is a bad ruler. He tells lies and withholds information from his subjects. Humans do not need God. They can decide for themselves what is good and what is bad. And they will be better off under my (Satan's) guidance.

By believing Satan and going along with him, Eve and her Husband effectively told God:
We can take care of ourselves. We do not need you....'

Remember we talked about free will earlier. They made their choice using the free will God had given them...

Ever since then, the world has been run largely independent of God by humans who feel that they know it all- sometimes under the guidance and tutelage of Satan.

Luke 4:5, 6
The Devil led him (Jesus) up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him,'I will give you all their AUTHORITY and splendor , IT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME AND I CAN GIVE IT TO ANYONE I WANT TO.

Adam and Eve handed over control over their world to Satan when they decided to believe him rather than the Father who created them.

honeychild:
One thing a lot of people do not understand is that the issues in Eden went beyond simple obedience or disobedience on the part of Adam.
When Satan led Adam and Eve into sinning against God, he was really leading a rebellion. In effect Satan was saying: God is a bad ruler. He tells lies and withholds information from his subjects. Humans do not need God. They can decide for themselves what is good and what is bad. And they will be better off under my (Satan's) guidance.

By believing Satan and going along with him, Eve and her Husband effectively told God:
We can take care of ourselves. We do not need you....'

Remember we talked about free will earlier. They made their choice using the free will God had given them...

Ever since then, the world has been run largely independent of God by humans who feel that they know it all- sometimes under the guidance and tutelage of Satan.

Luke 4:5, 6
The Devil led him (Jesus) up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him,'I will give you all their AUTHORITY and splendor , IT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME AND I CAN GIVE IT TO ANYONE I WANT TO.

Adam and Eve handed over control over their world to Satan when they decided to believe him rather than the Father who created them.

Omnipotent and omniscient as he is, thereby being aware of what was predestined, he lets all this happen. And apparently claims he's washed his hands off them. He then he proceeds to flood their descendents. Seems to me like satan was only pointing out to them that their creator was insane

Atheist:-D:



In regards to your 3 points can we be sure the righteous received these warnings?

In every single instance in Scripture where God has brought about a punishment upon a people he always gave an opportunity for a warning to be sounded. Read the Bible it's there.

Atheist:-D:


Again in the bible God mentioned to Abraham that he would never destroy a city if it had up to 1 righteous person there. That can be expressed to mean any natural disaster would only claim the lives of the non righteous. Does that mean that all those who died in hurricane Katrina etc were non righteous?

When God was talking to Abraham they were discussing God's plan to destroy a particular city. Abraham was concerned about his nephew Lot who was living there. He pleaded with God and God promised Him he would spare Sodom if he could find five righteous people there. When the angels got to Sodom, they told Lot to go into the city and see if some people would believe Lot and escape with him....no one did.

In summary the destruction of Sodom was not a natural disaster. God was bringing judgement upon a wicked people after making provision for those who trust Him to escape. God does not cause natural disasters. They are accidents that occur in a world that has chosen independence from God.

Atheist:-D:

If God designed me to be an Atheist then I would end up being one. Why would I be punished for something I was designed to be? How can a designer be absolved from the flaws of their design?

FREE WILL my bro.....FREE WILL. God did not design anyone to be anything. He made us intelligent creatures, gave us incredible brains and said: I would like you to obey me because if you do I''ll guide you aright. But it's your choice.

You are an atheist today (at least I am guessing you are based on your user name) because you have exercised that gift of FREE WILL and decided to be one.

Doesn't free will negate predestination?

Atheist:-D:

Patience

We dont know if the world will end tomorrow so how much longer do we have

If I may ask you what do you think will happen when the world ends?

Atheist:-D:


The bible promises the same things. So if the pastors are wrong what about the bible?

Well if you can supply me examples of such places where the Bible promises protection from all harm for God's people then perhaps we can discuss it taking into consideration the context. From my own study of the Bible I have not come to that uunderstanding.

musKeeto: Doesn't free will negate predestination?

Does the Bible teach predestination?

Atheist:-D:



Not good enough a description. If I was mentally unstable and you gave me the knife you would be held accountable. We are so different in intellect, ages, religious backgrounds etc that clearly no one law/rule can ever fit all.

You did not understand my illustration. The knife here signifies free will. Everyone decides how he wants to live his life. You cannot blame God if your neighbour decides to use his in a way that is detrimental to you.

honeychild:
Does the Bible teach predestination?

Romans 8:
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

plaetton: [/b]

And I suppose you have a spirito-meter to detect when spirit has departed from the body?
I can hear a christian saying " No no, he is not dead yet, bring the spirito-meter and lets see if the spirit has departed" lol

Lol, interesting.....That is why I asked you if you think there was more to those kids than just their bodies. Would you mind answering now?

Martian: Luke 13: 1-5
Repent or Perish
13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

This Anony guy is an i.mbecile and Logicboy gives him too much attention.
More threats from his sky fairy about how everyone will die because the talking snake convinced the rib woman to eat that fruit..................so everyone is a sinner and everyone will die and mad men will shoot little kids to death because it's all in the plan of the yahweh and if you don't believe you will perish.
Two geniuses called Olaadegbu and Mr.Anony reiterate this all the time, so we should all kowtow to their concept of god.

i think that what Jesus was saying there is. All human will die at one time or another not necessary due to there being righteouse or being unrighteouse but that different things sure does certainly kill humans in this world.

Is that ^^^ not a fact of life?
Did he say that Yahweh is the one killing them?


And he added, (while still a life) make a good name with God (repent)

why did you find it difficult to comprehend this simple fact of life from Jesus christ?

Mr_Anony: @martian

Oh how you missed the point.

Jesus is there clearly telling them that the tragedies that happened to people on earth is not because they are more sinful or more righteous than those to whom the tragedy didn't happen to but unless we come to God in repentance we will perish. In other words, repentance is the focus and not our earthly survival.


I am not surprised however that you saw "repent or perish" as a threat. It is usually said that how you respond to an admonition should tell you on which side of the law you are.

actually this is very true in this instance.

He completely missed the point as it were on what Jesus said.

Mr_Anony:
I am not surprised however that you saw "repent or perish" as a threat. It is usually said that how you respond to an admonition should tell you on which side of the law you are.

yea, martian reaction was "stereotype"

honeychild:
Briefly:
1. God created humans with a special gift called 'free-will.' Humans have been utilizing this gift in making choices ever since our first parents decided they wanted independence from Him.

2. When Humans choose to use their free will to do evil God does not stop them. It would not truly be 'free will' if he stops us each time we want to do something he does not agree with.


3. Sometimes a person misuses his free will and others get hurt. Sometimes it is just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 - The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance befall them all.

Humans have chosen a path of independence from God. We can't turn around and blame Him when we reap the fruitage.

^^^

girl that was great.

How wise of you that was.

Tells the true state of things on this planet.