Tayo-D:

Does anyone agree with me that obdience to the law is not a prerequisite to salvation? If anyone does, why then do we require unbelievers to obey the law when we are trying to get them saved? Please provide cogent answers to this without trying to assasinate my character. I'll be more than willing to learn.

1. Obedience to the law is not a prerequisite to salvation. To the natural man, unsaved, it is impossible to keep the law.
2. Unbelievers are not being forced to obey the law BEFORE as a prerequisite to salvation.

Now comes the real issue: The first part of salvation is that you acknowledge that you are a sinner . . . (pls read the publican's prayer).
The next part is that you confess and genuinely repent of sin.
In other words the message of salvation CLEARLY includes the fact that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There are no two ways around it, you cant cajole a sinner to repentance by glossing over his sinful nature.
Godly sorrow worketh repentance.

@ 4Him, did you just come back from a personal retreat where u had a vision of hell

Romans 7
6) But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were led by, so that we should serve in the newness of the spirit and also not in the oldness of the letter.
7) What shall we then say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known coveteousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."

24)  O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I find myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Salvation without abiding to the law is pure disobedience. If you love me keep my commandments John14:15. They work hand in hand. We can't do without the law. The law serves as a mirror and a guiding rule to live by as a genuine christian.

Tayo-D:

@nwando,
Try and be honest please. Your twisting my words does not make you right. You might do well to address what it takes to be saved, and what laws you have to obey in addition to your faith in Christ that will make guarantee your salvation.

Does anyone agree with me that obdience to the law is not a prerequisite to salvation? If anyone does, why then do we require unbelievers to obey the law when we are trying to get them saved? Please provide cogent answers to this without trying to assasinate my character. I'll be more than willing to learn.

  biko where did I twist your words ?
your assertion that Stephens words were non effective as preaching,converted no one but earned him a stoning
no be ya words?
just like when you earlier said Hindus were calling out to God
na your words
take a deep breathe and read through your own words and see what we all see except you.

4Him:

Shocking!
John 8: 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So going by your wholesale condemnation of Stephen . . . we can conclude that Christ also started accusing the people, the focus went from Christ to man, they became angry, he lost them at that point . . . they wanted to stone Him.

Uncle Tayo . . . the word of God does 2 things . . . either condemns you of your sins unto righteousness or makes you hate the word the more. There is no sitting on the fence.
Just like Stephen . . . Christ was crucified by those who accused Him of blasphemy, Paul was killed, ditto for Peter who was crucified upside down, James was beheaded by Herod because he convicted him of sin in his heart, John the baptist had his head in a charger . . .

Where all these heroes of faith killed because their messages turned from Jesus to man?

To say i'm shocked is an understatement at this poin[/b]t.

[b]Where did Stephen focus on Himself? Please show me.

Matthew 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

My brother I'm not only shocked but bamboozled.
For anyone to say Stephen had it all wrong because he was stoned is to say anyone who ever had harm come to him for the sake of Christ  brought the harm to himself.
That's the most absurd thing I ever heard.

It doesn't get anymore unscriptural than that.

I wonder why Christ talked of denying mother and father when the mother and father would all be rejoicing and toasting to anyones new found faith.
Who knows why Peter and Paul and the rest of them ended up bringing death to themselves since the preaching of Christ is meant to bring salvation and no harm from the hearers.
How they did forget not to make the crowd mad
We've indeed heaped up onto ourselves teachers with enticing words.

@4Him,

So going by your wholesale condemnation of Stephen . . . we can conclude that Christ also started accusing the people, the focus went from Christ to man, they became angry, he lost them at that point . . . they wanted to stone Him.

Okay, now you are going overboard. Me condemn Stephen? You need to use that word with some restraint please. So what caused the people to get angry after they've silently listened to Stephen's preaching for probably close to 30 minutes or more? Let's try and be honest here and just cut to the chase. They only stoned him because they felt he blasphemed, but they were angry with him 'cos of something else.  

Uncle Tayo . . . the word of God does 2 things . . . either condemns you of your sins unto righteousness or makes you hate the word the more. There is no sitting on the fence.

My dear, the word of God does not condemn you of sin. It convicts you. For the unbleivers, the only sin the Holy Spirit convicts them of is that of Jesus Christ. The only righteousness he encourages them to accept is that which is the gift from God, and not the self righteousness we are asking of them. If the world is convicted of some sin other than that of not believing in Jesus, believe me, that is not the Holy Spirit at work. It's probably just their conscience; or at worst a preacher's fiery demand of self roghteousness from them.

Matthew 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If Christ came to fulfil the law, what part of fulfilling it was left undone when He cried on the cross: "it is finished"? Seriously David, this is not funny any longer. I can't believe you are relying on the law for any form of righteousness. Salvation is a gift, same with righteousness.

1. Obedience to the law is not a prerequisite to salvation. To the natural man, unsaved, it is impossible to keep the law.

If obedience is not a prerequisite for salvation, why then are we requesting unbels to obey the law or go to hell? These are mutually exclusive. If its impossible for them to obey, why then are we asking them to do it?

2. Unbelievers are not being forced to obey the law BEFORE as a prerequisite to salvation.

Neither are they required to obey the law when saved as a means of retaining their righteousness. Remember Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Now comes the real issue: The first part of salvation is that you acknowledge that you are a sinner . . . (please read the publican's prayer).
The next part is that you confess and genuinely repent of sin.
In other words the message of salvation CLEARLY includes the fact that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There are no two ways around it, you can't cajole a sinner to repentance by glossing over his sinful nature.
Godly sorrow worketh repentance.

Show us this in Acts. Let's try and see in Acts, the practical outworking of the teachings of Christ in the Gospels (Old Testament). The repentance required of an Unbel is that towards Christ. An Unbel who repents of fornication is still an unbel. The only time an Unbel is saved is when he repents of his unbelief in Jesus Christ.

Tayo-D:

@all,

Una come they attack me left, right and center. na wa o. god is able. He is my stregth.

My dear it's no attack.
The doctrine you preach on this thread get K leg.
Scripture explains scripture and all scripture is inspired.
You can't cherry pick , it's unChristian to do so.
There is a time and a season for every kind of message
soft pleading message o , and the hardline there's "hell fire waiting"
all get their place
and someone has to point it out to you.
You may not like me or anyone to tell you that
I love you that's why I'm correcting you.
people have taken out time to show you scripture
but you have your excuses as in the Stephen case,on others you've called it OT,even the parables Christ gave,you called it OT
na you sabi

@stillwater,

Salvation without abiding to the law is pure disobedience. If you love me keep my commandments John14:15. They work hand in hand. We can't do without the law. The law serves as a mirror and a guiding rule to live by as a genuine christian.

I hope nwando and 4Him will correct you here as well. This is the danger of all this obey the law preachings has led us. Please read Galatians 5:4 I quoted earlier. As a matter of fact, you might do well to read the entire Book of Galatians. It teaches about Christians who think thy have to obey the law to maintain their righteousness. This is the same thing I am seeing here.

And by the way, the commandment He asked us to obey is not the law but love. John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Tayo-D:

. The repentance required of an Unbel is that towards Christ. An Unbel who repents of fornication is still an unbel. The only time an Unbel is saved is when he repents of his unbelief in Jesus Christ.

and who tells you an unbel cannot be convicted of his sinful fornicating nature and realise that it's only a life in Christ that can help him overcome that?
You make it sound as if conviction that turns one to Christ is some abstract theology unrelated to conviction about sinful living.
My dear they can go hand in hand.

I have not seen or read anywhere on this thread by anyone that an unbeliever can be righteous without accepting Christ,so why are you hammering on a topic that no one is debating ? but I've read a whole lot of don't preach and mention  sin or you may aggravate folks and be stoned.
No wonder our churches are filled with "christians" cohabiting,fornicating and having Children out of wedlock afterall they have come to Christ.
They are now supposed to be merry and live the best life they can live.
Brother that is false theology when touted as the way to preach
There is time for reproof and chastisement.
There is time to tell people they reason like their father,the devil.
It is very scriptural .

Tayo-D:

@4Him,
Okay, now you are going overboard. Me condemn Stephen? You need to use that word with some restraint please.

appologies there for the wrong use of words. Perhaps it was not ur intention to do so.

Tayo-D:

So what caused the people to get angry after they've silently listened to Stephen's preaching for probably close to 30 minutes or more? Let's try and be honest here and just cut to the chase. They only stoned him because they felt he blasphemed, but they were angry with him 'because of something else.

Acts 7: 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
What made these men angry? What were the words that "cut to the heart"?
Was Stephen wrong to point them to the truth even though it stung so bad?

Why did they stop their ears (verse 57) and rush to stone him outside the city? What is this "something else" that made them angry? These same men where ready to stone Jesus Christ earlier on . . . why?

Tayo-D:

My dear, the word of God does not condemn you of sin. It convicts you.

thanks for the correction.

Tayo-D:

For the unbleivers, the only sin the Holy Spirit convicts them of is that of Jesus Christ.

This is not right. Why were the pple of Soddom and Gomorrah condemned?
Why were the jews forced into exile in Babylon?
Why was God angry with the people of Nineveh?

Tayo-D:

The only righteousness he encourages them to accept is that which is the gift from God, and not the self righteousness we are asking of them. If the world is convicted of some sin other than that of not believing in Jesus, believe me, that is not the Holy Spirit at work. It's probably just their conscience; or at worst a preacher's fiery demand of self roghteousness from them.

You're begining to get tied up in ur arguments. I doubt if anyone is saying anything about self-righteousness. The key grouse in this debate has been the reluctance of men of Gawd in the WOFM to boldly declare the truth about salvation, to confront the sinful lifestyle of their flock and teach them what Christ taught - he that believeth not is CONDEMNED ALREADY.

Tayo-D:

The repentance required of an Unbel is that towards Christ. An Unbel who repents of fornication is still an unbel. The only time an Unbel is saved is when he repents of his unbelief in Jesus Christ.

So pls how does an unbel sitting under mushy messages of "hope", encouragement, motivation e.t.c. repent of his unbelief?
How does a man get saved if his pastor says the message of heaven and hell is "just not me"?

@nwando,

My dear it's no attack.

I used the word "attack" loosely. It's no big deal.

The doctrine you preach on this thread get K leg.

Where is the K in the leg. This is what I preach. Salvation is free. You cannot work for it. No amount of obeying the law can get you saved. Salvation is from first to last, believing in Jesus. This is what the early Church preached and practice. It is confirmed from first to last in Acts. I hope I don't have to walk us all through Acts to show this as I believe it is so clear.

Scripture explains scripture and all scripture is inspired.
You can't cherry pick , it's unChristian to do so.

I am not cherry picking scripture. I never do. However, I certainly understand the message of the scriptures especially with respect to salvation, and no matter how much you avoid making a stance, my stance is that I have not earned my salvation. I received the gift free of charge or conditions. It has nothing to do with my obedience or disobedience of the law. What about you?

There is a time and a season for every kind of message
soft pleading message o,        ,there's "hell fire waiting"
all get their place
and someone has to point it out to you.

Do you know who should benefit from the message of Hellfire? It is Believers. Our knowledge of it should get us out to persuade unbelievers to believe in Jesus Christ. Hear what Paul said about this:

2 Corinthians 5:11 - Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

The truth is until the Unbel believes in Christ, every other message of the Bible will be unprofitable for them, except the natural laws and principles which is in most cases is the basis of our social value system.

You may not like me or anyone to tell you that
I love you that's why I'm correcting you.

Thanks for your love. I appreciate it, and you know the "feeling" is mutual. Just because the church has been doing some thing for decades does not make it right.  I stand by my persuasion that telling unbelievers to do righteous acts is unprofitable towards their salvation. Chikena.

people have taken out time to show you scripture
but you have your excuses as in the Stephen case,on others you've called it OT,even the parables Christ gave,you called it OT. na you sabi

My reference to Christ and the OT is in reference to salvation. Salvation as we know it is a NT thingy, and Jesus only lived in the OT. As for Stephen, I learnt from him how not to preach the message of salvation. Peter did a better job, and we all know that even Peter is not always right in the head even though his heart is always right.

nwando:

but I've read a whole lot of don't preach and mention  sin or you may aggravate folks and be stoned.
No wonder our churches are filled with "christians" cohabiting,fornicating and having Children out of wedlock afterall they have come to Christ.
They are now supposed to be merry and live the best life they can live.
Brother that is false theology when touted as the way to preach
There is time for reproof and chastisement.
There is time to tell people they reason like their father,the devil.
It is very scriptural .

My sister! This is EXACTLY what i have been trying to say all along. Thank you for capturing it in so very few words . . .

Unce Tayo-D, we now have pastors who are too afraid to speak with the boldness of Stephen . . . infact we even accuse him of wasting his life since no one was saved by his words.
Dear, we are too afraid to confront sin . . . our pastors all declare their divorce status like its some badge of honor, we have "fiance and fiancees" who live together, smile and shout praise God!

The people in our churches today would not hesitate to stone Bro Stephen shld he ever have cause to come back and speak to them for 30mins!
We play the lottery and give testimony of God's provision, all our lives and pastoral books are geared towards SELF GLORIFICATION couched in the name of Jesus, single moms and homosexuals have never felt more comfortable in the church, our political leaders are rewarded with the front pews in the house of Gawd . . . and yet we rubbish the words of Stephen and other apostles who gave their lives that they may be an example to us.

On that day . . . the blood of those faithful men will rise in judgement against this generation. May God spare us.

A little about Stephen,that TayoD described in the manner he did.
What does the Bible,the greatest book of all say about him.
Read on.

6:2  Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples [unto them], and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.


Act 6:3  Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.


Act 6:4  But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

     Act 6:5  And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:


Act 6:6  Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid [their] hands on them.


Act 6:7  And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Act 6:8 ¶ And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Tayo-D:

My reference to Christ and the OT is in reference to salvation. Salvation as we know it is a NT thingy, and Jesus only lived in the OT. As for Stephen, I learnt from him how not to preach the message of salvation. Peter did a better job, and we all know that even Peter is not always right in the head even though his heart is always right.

My brother . . . i will not be hasty to thrash Stephen at all! Neither you nor I are worthy to touch the lapels of his coat.

Peter did a better job? Because he managed to live longer than stephen? What about his frequent jailing? What about his eventual crucifiction? Did we learn how not to write a pastoral letter from him then?

Paul was also killed . . . what did we learn from him? How not to preach to kings?

James was beheaded by Herod . . . what did we learn? How not to preach the gospel?

John the baptist lost his head in a charger . . . what did we learn? How not to tell a king not to steal his brother's wife?

Christ was nearly stoned . . . flogged and eventually crucified . . . what did we learn? How not to be a Messiah?

Bro, be careful how you talk about biblical men of God.

53  Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].


Act 7:54 ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.


Act 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Act 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Act 7:57  Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,


Act 7:58  And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.


Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

The man was no punk.

The Bible described him as a man full of the Holy Spirit,God knew it,even his fellow disciples recognised it.
Whatever interpretations tayoD gives it is totally irrelevant and unscriptural
He preached as he was led by the Holy Spirit and that is a statement of fact.

@nwando,

Again, you have left the gist of the matter and dabbled in irrlevancies. What is your take on salvation? I have clearly stated mine, please share yours.

@4Him,

This is not right. Why were the people of Soddom and Gomorrah condemned?
Why were the jews forced into exile in Babylon?
Why was God angry with the people of Nineveh?

How many of these live under the dispensation where Jesus said the Holy Spirit will only convict them of the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ? Is it yur option A, B or C?

The key grouse in this debate has been the reluctance of men of Gawd in the WOFM to boldly declare the truth about salvation, to confront the sinful lifestyle of their flock and teach them what Christ taught - he that believeth not is CONDEMNED ALREADY.

Message of salvation is for Unbels. This is my focus on this topic, and not the Believers. Salvation is all about believing in Christ. It has nothing to do with a personal righteous lifestyle. Have we been addressing different issues here?

Tayo-D:

@4Him,
How many of these live under the dispensation where Jesus said the Holy Spirit will only convict them of the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ? Is it yur option A, B or C?

that is not the question at all . . . and i'm tired of running in unproductive circles . . .

Tayo-D:

Message of salvation is for Unbels. This is my focus on this topic, and not the Believers. Salvation is all about believing in Christ. It has nothing to do with a personal righteous lifestyle. Have we been addressing different issues here?

Please we are even assuming that those people who sit in awe in 30000 capacity churches are even saved in the first place. Most are not.
Salvation is not ONLY about believing in Christ . . . it includes repentance from sin, living a Holy life and being an example of the believers!

Passing common entrance is the only way to secondary school but it is NOT the begining and end of secondary school education. You need to study and pass other exams too.

@4Him,

Salvation is not ONLY about believing in Christ . . . it includes repentance from sin, living a Holy life and being an example of the believers!

In other words, salvation is a process for you. So have you obtained oit or still wsorking towards it. How holy must you become before God kicks in Christ's sacrifice? Do you even realise what you are saying?

Abeg, I attended to you people all day at work, and I can't share my time with my family at home any longer with you. We'll continue later. I'm sighning out.

Tayo-D:

@nwando,

Again, you have left the gist of the matter and dabbled in irrlevancies. What is your take on salvation? I have clearly stated mine, please share yours.

Irrelevances ke?
you said a man full of the Holy Ghost was killed for reasons of not preaching the "proper message" and you want it brushed aside ?
Are you asking me how one gets saved or what ?

Let me start with my own testimony.
I was a young 16 year old fresh out of high school and about to get into the University.
I was alone in my room and felt a tugging in my heart to give my life to Christ,I knelt beside my bed,alone and asked God to come into my heart.

I went to campus,joined NIFES on my own and attended Bible studies to grow in my faith,got filled in the Holy Spirit,was baptized
and have remained a believer since then.

Salvation is a free gift to whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord.
But it doesn't end there,it's only the beginning of the race.
After one is saved,you have to live out your Christian life by daily,conscious decision to serve God and be led by his Spirit.
And the Holy Spirit makes living a Christian life easier because it's Him that teaches us that life but we have to be willing to be led of Him.
We have to spend time in His presence
We have to study His word
We have to meditate on his word
We have to grow in the things of God
It doesn't begin and end with I am saved.
There is something called backsliding and turning back.
We have to be childlike in Spirit and be teachable

I am ever willing to learn of God
I can never know him enough
and I hope never to get to a stage where I think I now have it down pat
I prefer to be led and convicted by his Spirit than do it my way.
And daily I yearn to know more of Him.

My brother I have a zillion testimonies of God's goodness that's why I seem to be inpatient with anyone that claims a knowledge of how things ought to be done.
God cannot be boxed in by our finite knowledge.
He can use whatever means and however way he chooses.

[b]4Him talked of Mike Murdock and I kept silent,now let me tell you that my hubby and I received a financial miracle over $160,000 by God leading us to his TV ministry and our sowing a seed according to the rhema that God spoke through his mouth and no it was not the lotto or a debt owed us and the seed was not even much but I knew in my Spirit God was going to fulfill his word.[/b]The list we wrote of things we needed from God as we obeyed that word has become increasingly shorter.

So I'm careful not to criticise men of God.If they preach heresy,I'll reject it of course but I believe that many do speak as they are led by the Spirit of God.

I know you asked me a simple question and I wrote an epistle.
This whole thing started with us talking about Joel Osteen and I was glad to note he apologised for his unChristian utterances,let God be his helper and teach him.
Let Him teach us all.
I love you and all Children of God.
Forgive me,if I was too harsh.

Tayo-D:

@4Him,
In other words, salvation is a process for you. So have you obtained oit or still wsorking towards it. How holy must you become before God kicks in Christ's sacrifice? Do you even realise what you are saying?

My dear . . . how else do i explain this? You seem to take my words out of context!
The bible says . . . Work out your salvation with fear and trembling . . . maybe you can ask Paul what he meant.

4Him:


Please we are even assuming that those people who sit in awe in 30000 capacity churches are even saved in the first place. Most are not.
Salvation is not ONLY about believing in Christ . . . it includes repentance from sin, living a Holy life and being an example of the believers!

Passing common entrance is the only way to secondary school but it is NOT the begining and end of secondary school education. You need to study and pass other exams too.

I agree.
If all he preaches is feel good message,many in his congregation would be better off seeing Dr Phil.
One could sit there and die in their sins.
They need a "hell fire" movie once in a while if he can't preach it.
Some need to be snatched as though from fire literally.

@4Him, nwando,

For the sake of clarification. How many of these laws that you obey help you secure and guarantee your salvation? Because while you are on one hand saying you believe salvation is by grace, you are implying it is secured through works and accomplishment.

@Jeseoul,

I'm sorry if I sound condescending. I did not mean to. I'm attending to these issues while working at the same time, so I do not get to peruse some of the things I write and so have a chance to delete what may be offensive. Please accept my sincere apologies.

no problemo. and I apologize if I was harsh too. Me sef I dey for work so I know how it is.

You have indeed quoted scriptures, but it don't mean they are appropriate for the situations you have tried to apply them. I refered to 2 of the scriptures you quoted and showed you that one does not refer to unbelievers and the other is actually a millenial scripture. But of course, many do not know that and so apply the scriptures wrongly.

You musta been kidding right? The unsaved will be judged for all their sins, those scriptures could not have said it any clearer!
Looking at the verses in Revelation alone:
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Revelation 22:12
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

how can you look at these verses and still insist that God will not judge the unsaved for all their sins? there's nothing you can say that can change my mind (except you put up the scripture reference here). which you can't cos there's no scripture or hint in the bible that says what you're trying to assert.

John 16 Jesus says they world will be judged for not believing in Him, true. But it does not say that's the only sin God will judge them of! It is not a "general principle" like you're trying to assert, else that bible verse would be contradicting so many others. Can't you see that?

Tayo-D:

@4Him, nwando,

For the sake of clarification. How many of these laws that you obey help you secure and guarantee your salvation? Because while you are on one hand saying you believe salvation is by grace, you are implying it is secured through works and accomplishment.

which laws?
so to live a righteous and holy life after salvation is now keeping the law?
are you one of the once saved always saved crowd?
honey,after you've accepted Christ,it doesn't stop there.
who is feeding you all this doctrine?
open yoiur Bible dear.

@topic,

Here we go again today! Let's enjoy the ride.

@Jesoul,

how can you look at these verses and still insist that God will not judge the unsaved for all their sins?

I think I now understand where you are misusnderstanding me. Let me try and articulate my points more clearly and I'd like you to point out where you differ, if you do.

1. What determines the fate of a person under this dispensation is whetheh they believe in Jesus or not. This is the unqualified basis of salvation. No works can be added or removed to change this reality.

2. Consequent to 1 above, no unbeliever will be going to hell because of the sins of fornication, stealing, cheating and the likes. This is because what condemns them is lack of faith in Christ. John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I hope that is clear enough.

nwando,

which laws? so to live a righteous and holy life after salvation is now keeping the law?

Do you understand the things I have written at all? Where did I so much as insinuate the things you are accusing me of? My point is that there is nothing you can do, no acts of righteousness you can muster, that will help you obtain or secure your salvation. Salvation is the work of Christ from first to last. Your part is to accept the gift through faith and believe in Him.

are you one of the once saved always saved crowd?

What do you mean by that? I believe in John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I believe what makes you a sheep is to believe, and no one can take you out of God's hands when you are His sheep.

honey,after you've accepted Christ,it doesn't stop there.

What more do you do after accepting Christ to obtain salvation? Please share this "another" Gospel with us.

who is feeding you all this doctrine?
open yoiur Bible dear.

My Bible is always opened.

Tayo-D:

What more do you do after accepting Christ to obtain salvation? Please share this "another" Gospel with us.

what else do you do after passing common entrance?

Tayo-D:

What more do you do after accepting Christ to obtain salvation? Please share this "another" Gospel with us.
My Bible is always opened.

philippians 2:12.
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

@4Him,

what else do you do after passing common entrance?

I didn't know that people have to earn their salvation like they earn their A1s and C4s in an exam, as if Christ's work wasn't enough. You are yet to tell me how much work it takes to earn salvation. A little or a lot? What is the benchmark? I just can't believe what i am seeing here on nairaland. Do you know what happens when you seek to be justified by your works? Hear Paul: Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Please spend time tonight and try and study or read through the book of Galatians. Maybe we can study from there.

@jokepearl,

philippians 2:12. Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

If I understand you clearly based on the context with which you quoted this scripture, you are trying to say our salvation wasn't guaranteed in Christ; and that we are to do some work to make sure it doesn't slip away. If that is the case, then Hebrews 10:29 aptly describes your position: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? You have largely said the blood of Christ wasn't enough to pay for your salvation.

Please tell me, how much work have you done today to guarantee that you don't lose your salvation? How much sin have you avoided to guarantee that God will consider you righteous? How much more do you need to do to earn God's favour and salvation? Please let us know.

The scripture you quoted doesn't in anyway say you have to work to make your salvation sure. The guarantee of your salvation is Christ's blood, not your own righteousness. What the Bible says in Phillipians 2:12 is that you should allow an outworking of your inward salvation. The word "work" in that verse isn't in the original greek manuscripts. the translators put it there for a better understanding of the verse, but in this case, it threw it off. Here are some translations that'll help you understand what I am saying better.

NLT- Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear.

Young's Literal Translation - So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out,

Basic English - So then, my loved ones, as you have at all times done what I say, not only when I am present, but now much more when I am not with you, give yourselves to working out your salvation with fear in your hearts;

Tayo-D:

@4Him,
I didn't know that people have to earn their salvation like they earn their A1s and C4s in an exam, as if Christ's work wasn't enough. You are yet to tell me how much work it takes to earn salvation. A little or a lot? What is the benchmark? I just can't believe what i am seeing here on nairaland. Do you know what happens when you seek to be justified by your works? Hear Paul: Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Please spend time tonight and try and study or read through the book of Galatians. Maybe we can study from there.

You totally misinterpreted my analogy.
I never intended to say that you EARN your salvation like you would earn a placement in a secondary school via a common entrance.

Salvation (it is a free gift but pls look at the analogy instead of reading literal meanings) is like a common entrance exam . . . now after getting into secondary school you dont just go home and sit down waiting for ur SSCE certificate after 6 yrs . . . u advance with each exam to even higher classes getting to learn more advanced stuff than you were required to know when u were writing the common entrance.

So is the same with salvation . . . all you needed was to believe in your heart and confess with ur mouth and Christ in His mercy made the blood He shed on the cross to avail for our unworthy souls.

But is salvation the end of the story? Are we once saved forever saved? NO! That is why Paul kept telling the brethren to work out their salvation with fear and trembling . . . he wasnt telling them to work for their salvation rather he was telling them that there was yet more work to do.
The bible says be ye therefore perfect even as my Father who is in heaven is perfect . . . you will agree with me that only saved people can be even talk about aspiring to be perfect (just like only a bonafide secondary school student can study for SS1 exams).
How do we grow to perfection? How do we live a Holy life? Are these not part of working out ur salvation?

What about trials and temptations that are like advanced classes for believers? What about the strong meat and bones Paul encouraged his followers to desire? Will you remain on the milk of salvation forever?

you dont earn ur salvation, you recieve it as a free gift HOWEVER that is never the end of the story. There is a lot of growing to do after that and that is what everyone else is trying to make you see!

Tayo-D:

@jokepearl,
If I understand you clearly based on the context with which you quoted this scripture, you are trying to say our salvation wasn't guaranteed in Christ; and that we are to do some work to make sure it doesn't slip away. If that is the case, then Hebrews 10:29 aptly describes your position: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? You have largely said the blood of Christ wasn't enough to pay for your salvation.

Uncle . . . this is another case of reading the bible upside down. Take a deep breath and read that chapter all over again. What was Paul describing in verse 29 of Hebrews 10?

Read contextually . . . go a step or two ahead and read from verse 26:For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

First we need to be clear that Paul was talking to SAVED believers in this chapter . . . 2. Paul was warning them . . . that you are saved is NOT a guarantee that you can go back to sin WILFULLY (knowingly) thinking that ur earlier salvation would cover for ur sins . . . no. Verse 29 simply says it is a graver offence for you to sin AFTER you have come to the knowledge of Christ's saving grace. Once saved is never a guarantee that you are forever saved . . . if u sin again you go to hell straight as that blood will not avail for subsequent sins if you fail to repent.

Tayo-D:

Please tell me, how much work have you done today to guarantee that you don't lose your salvation? How much sin have you avoided to guarantee that God will consider you righteous? How much more do you need to do to earn God's favour and salvation? Please let us know.

The bible encourages believers to GROW IN THE FAITH . . . is this work too?

Tayo-D:

The scripture you quoted doesn't in anyway say you have to work to make your salvation sure. The guarantee of your salvation is Christ's blood, not your own righteousness. What the Bible says in Phillipians 2:12 is that you should allow an outworking of your inward salvation. The word "work" in that verse isn't in the original greek manuscripts. the translators put it there for a better understanding of the verse, but in this case, it threw it off. Here are some translations that'll help you understand what I am saying better.

NLT- Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear.

Young's Literal Translation - So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out,

Basic English - So then, my loved ones, as you have at all times done what I say, not only when I am present, but now much more when I am not with you, give yourselves to working out your salvation with fear in your hearts;

What new light has ur translations shed on this contentious verse? I dont see any difference at all.

Salvation 101

Salvation is like being born anew into a new family - 1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

But an important component of being a baby is that he/she grows. No parent wants to carry a baby forever . . . they long that the newborn will grow into a strong child and then into an adult.

But how does this baby grow? By sleeping all day and drinking milk alone? Lets have Paul's perspective . . . Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe

uh oh . . . so we are required to become skilled in the word of righteousness? But how? By going to bed and listening to "motivational" sermons every sunday?

What on earth is Paul talking about? Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Paul's made this even worse . . . so at some stage the born again baby shld become a teacher/skilled in the word of righteousness? I thot we werent supposed to work again after being born again?

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Strong meat? So God is expecting this baby to have grown strong enough to develop powerful molars to chew meat and a well developed digestive system to handle meat . . . wow.

How does this baby grow if he isnt expecting to put in any work after his salvation?

@4Him,

Just a brief response to your inputs above. Let's make some distinctions.

1. Salvation, as in being brought out of darkness into His marvelous light is a one time event that takes place when one believes in Christ. Nothing can be added or taken away from this. It is a gift you receive by grace. Nothing you can do can add to or take away that gift. You either accept it or reject it.

2. Maturity is a separate thing altogether from salvation. You guys are muddling the two together. It is only a baby child that grows into a son. A bastard, no matuter how mature he is, is still a bastard, and a child, no matter how unmatured he is, remains the son of His father. Nothing he does or not do will make him less a child, even though he may be out of favor with his father.

I understand full well your analogy which still is off totally. Your analogy can be likened to a Christian maturing or passing a trial, but it does not in any way apply to salvation. I would like to move on to the life of a believer after salvation, but since there is still a fundamental misunderstanding with what it takes to be saved, I can't get myself to move beyond this point.

Please hear me again, there is nothing you can do to add to, or secure your salvation. You either have it or you don't. Salvation is absolutely a thing of faith.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Can you see here that salvation is absolutely unrelated to works?

Please go back to that Hebrews 10 and tell me what the central theme of those passages are. It is absolutely on the blod with respect to what saves a man. Paul was essentially saying if you don't think the blood is sufficient for you, there is no more sacrifices that saves. If the blood is out of the question, you are lost. This is what everyone here who expects to be justified by works are saying.

Tayo-D, a simple question: do you believe once saved forever saved?