I don't mean to be spiteful or derogatory towards the Christian Faith, however Christianity SEEMS to rest on a dilemma, the value of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross and the Nature of God.

God being the most powerful substance in Christian worldview, is omnipotent. He is equipped with the power of all doing, of doing doing everything and anything. With such power, God isn't compelled by necessity to sacrifice Jesus.

If Jesus's sacrifice isn't necessary to us and God, if it isn't more important than animal sacrifice, then the whole message of Christianity falls apart.

of course the sacrifice was important but God did not sacrifice anyone. we are all sons and daughters of God.. jesus dying on the cross and the manner in which it happened was his own choosing . it was a selfless act done to show you the "way".

the problem is people have misunderstood what jesus sought to accomplish..

That's the thing, Jesus sacrifice is necessary to us and God. And it is more important than animal sacrifice. Animal sacrifice was a temporary covering for sin, it could never really cleanse us from sin (see Hebrew 10:11)

Yes, God is omnipotent. He can do anything. But He will never go against His own word/law. According to His law, the wages of sin is death (see Romans 6:23) and the soul that sins shall die (see Ezekiel 18:4b). He is a just God who keeps to His word. He couldn't just let us off the hook just because He could. That would make Him unjust. Think about it, how would you view a judge in a law court who out-rightly declares a murderer to be innocent? Everyone would be outraged by his unjust judgement, right?

On the other hand, God is a merciful and loving God. It is not His will for anyone to perish for their sins (see 2 Peter 3:9). So then, what should a MERCIFUL and JUST God do to sinners/law breakers like us? If He gives us the punishment we deserve, then what about His mercy? If He overlooks our offenses and let's us off the hook, then what about His justice? Being a great God that He is, He made a perfect plan. He poured out His wrath and justice on Jesus so that He would have mercy on us. He expressed His Mercy and justice simultaneously!

Back to the law court scenario: so the just judge sentences the murderer to life imprisonment or a billion naira fine. And of course the murderer couldn't pay. Then all of a sudden, the judge's son steps in and pays the billion naira fine on behalf of the murderer so he would be set free. He pays the debt the murderer owed so the murderer could be forgiven and released.

I hope this clarified some things for you. God bless!

^^^^ a perfect example of misunderstanding and deception of religion at work...

you say God has given you free will, yet these same people claim and teaches that if you do not obey him, He will send you to hell. so much so that he had to sacrifice his only begotten son and tht if you fail to believe in him then you will surely go to "hell".. What kind of free will is that? Does this not make a mockery of God. are you all not making a mockery and laughing stock out of a supposedly unconditional loving God?. do some of you reason at all?

^^^^^

Where does the scripture say god has given us free-will?

Kay 17: I don't mean to be spiteful or derogatory towards the Christian Faith, however Christianity SEEMS to rest on a dilemma, the value of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross and the Nature of God.

God being the most powerful substance in Christian worldview, is omnipotent. He is equipped with the power of all doing, of doing doing everything and anything. With such power, God isn't compelled by necessity to sacrifice Jesus.

Yes God is all-powerful, but man has to attain god's power(sonship) through a "legal" spiritual process. While the law of Moses was still standing, man could not attain "godhood", as man was legally bound to the law of Moses through Adam's fall. So jesus had to come, became one with the law by upholding it completely(No man had ever upheld the law completely. Only jesus did, thus the reference: "Lamb of God" ), just like you become one with god by upholding his law. Therefore Jesus's death on the cross signifies the law itself died on the cross and hence legally removed, so that man can attain god.

If Jesus's sacrifice isn't necessary to us and God, if it isn't more important than animal sacrifice, then the whole message of Christianity falls apart.

It was absolutely necessary! God cannot break his own word/principle. The law had to be legally removed before christianity could be revealed.

In furtherance of my op, yes God does construct a legal spiritual structure for his creation to follow; however God is the uncommanded commander and by virtue of being an absolute monarch, he is exempted from the application of his laws. He is the lawgiver/source and the his instructions are directed at his creation.

And what exactly was the sacrifice? Jesus was well aware that he would resurrect.

Reminds me of the time I'd make some dangerous move while playing Mario Super Bros on a Nintendo, because I had extra lives....

If God's Son had been lost to death forever, that would have been a real sacrifice. Else it just sounds like 419 to me.

musKeeto: And what exactly was the sacrifice? Jesus was well aware that he would resurrect.

Reminds me of the time I'd make some dangerous move while playing Mario Super Bros on a Nintendo, because I had extra lives....

If God's Son had been lost to death forever, that would have been a real sacrifice. Else it just sounds like 419 to me.

Even as a Christian, the idea that God actually sacrificed his 'only begotten Son for our sins' doesn't make any sense!

A sacrifice is an offering that cannot be retrieved and to say God sacrificed Christ to death for our sins then resurrected him and took him to heaven is plain silly.

It makes more sense to say Jesus came as a gift from God to enlighten humans about the 'power in loving each other'. Jesus' teachings were all based on love and tolerance to achieve peace, greatness and perfection on Earth.

I don't see it as a sacrifice but a gift to enlighten us, because with love comes peace, joy and perfection. The stupid humans back then didn't understand his teachings which explains why they killed him.

doubleDx:


Even as a Christian, the idea that God actually sacrificed his 'only begotten Son for our sins' doesn't make any sense!

A sacrifice is an offering that cannot be retrieved and to say God sacrificed Christ to death for our sins then resurrected him and took him to heaven is plain silly.

It makes more sense to say Jesus came as a gift from God to enlighten humans about the 'power in loving each'. Jesus' teachings were all based on love and tolerance to achieve peace, greatness and perfection on Earth.

I don't see it as a sacrifice but a gift to enlighten us, because with love comes peace, joy and perfection. The stupid humans back then didn't understand his teachings which explains why they killed him.

Interesting perspective...

doubleDx:


Even as a Christian, the idea that God actually sacrificed his 'only begotten Son for our sins' doesn't make any sense!

A sacrifice is an offering that cannot be retrieved and to say God sacrificed Christ to death for our sins then resurrected him and took him to heaven is plain silly.

It makes more sense to say Jesus came as a gift from God to enlighten humans about the 'power in loving each'. Jesus' teachings were all based on love and tolerance to achieve peace, greatness and perfection on Earth.

I don't see it as a sacrifice but a gift to enlighten us, because with love comes peace, joy and perfection. The stupid humans back then didn't understand his teachings which explains why they killed him.

Now, now, I think the silly is derper. But peace and love? Yeah, we can all dig peace and love. Fears, though, are the primary source of religions and decisions based on fear don't tend to be the best

Ah, random

And when you consider the fact that nothing has changed. . . . . .ah well.

@musKeeto, @doubleDx

I understand that you may not be christians but surely that is no excuse for you to throw away sound logic and common sense when trying to understand or judge christianity. On what basis do you say that jesus's death was not a sacrifice? Have you even tried to compare christianity's claim of sacrifice to other operations\principles in the real world before making a judgment? My guess is either you refused to or you just lacked the capability to.

Now talk abut sacrifice: It's obvious that we are all literate & educated, Now did you inherit your literacy\education\degrees? No!! the fact is you sacrificed time, effort, money, social-life to immerse yourselves in studies, in sleepless nights, in fear and examinations. All this you did, knowing there is a reward and recoupment for all that suffering and loss. Isn't it funny(and mad!!) that you can boast of the things you denied yourselves to attain your current positions but you'd deny jesus of the same right to claim that he suffered and sacrificed for the reward of power & eternal life? Do you guys really lack the faculty to grasp and analyze information, comparing and extrapolating? All I can do is SMH...

After the ridiculous ramble, you still didn't explain what exactly Jesus sacrificed? And yeah, wtf was the reward? Was the reward for us or for him?

Act your shoe size.

wiegraf:
Now, now, I think the silly is derper. But peace and love? Yeah, we can all dig peace and love. Fears, though, are the primary source of religions and decisions based on fear don't tend to be the best

Ah, random

Really? Can you name one field of endeavorer or discipline, occupation, life-achievement, etc that is not based on fear? Do you not study through the fear of failure? do you not work hard through the fear of poverty and hunger? Do you not take care of your health through the fear of disease & death? But I'm sure you believe those fears that spurred you to excel in life are good, but when it comes to christianity, common sense flies out the window. Why should the same principles as in practical real living not apply to spiritual people with spiritual quests?

I just laugh when you atheists recite the same phrases your "elders" teach you to say when arguing with christians: "Religion is based on fear", "Jesus did not sacrifice", "blah blah blah...", but never actually take time to ponder these sayings for sound logic.

Kay 17: In furtherance of my op, yes God does construct a legal spiritual structure for his creation to follow; however God is the uncommanded commander and by virtue of being an absolute monarch, he is exempted from the application of his laws. He is the lawgiver/source and the his instructions are directed at his creation.

That's where you are mistaken. It is this same law\principle of god that empowers him. How can you ask him to disregard his might? Does a man go into battle without his Armour and weapons? God is not powerful besides his spirit\principle, and he does not operate beyond it.

okeyxyz: @musKeeto, @doubleDx

I understand that you may not be christians but surely that is no excuse for you to throw away sound logic and common sense when trying to understand or judge christianity. On what basis do you say that jesus's death was not a sacrifice? Have you even tried to compare christianity's claim of sacrifice to other operations\principles in the real world before making a judgment? My guess is either you refused to or you just lacked the capability to.

Now talk abut sacrifice: It's obvious that we are all literate & educated, Now did you inherit your literacy\education\degrees? No!! the fact is you sacrificed time, effort, money, social-life to immerse yourselves in studies, in sleepless nights, in fear and examinations. All this you did, knowing there is a reward and recoupment for all that suffering and loss. Isn't it funny(and mad!!) that you can boast of the things you denied yourselves to attain your current positions but you'd deny jesus of the same right to claim that he suffered and sacrificed for the reward of power & eternal life? Do you guys really lack the faculty to grasp and analyze information, comparing and extrapolating? All I can do is SMH...

I'm a Christian bruv.

Well, I kinda understand and agree with your point that Jesus sacrificed his time to teach and show us the way under harsh human conditions. According to the Bible, he was rewarded for what he did, correct me if I'm wrong.

What some Christians don't seem to understand is that, the 'sacrifice' refers to the time he took out to show us the way and the conditions and suffering he passed through. It doesn't mean that it's part of God's plan to kill him for forgiveness of our sins. God is all knowing, which explains why Jesus already knew what would happen to him if he shows the world how to attain greatness and perfection through 'love'.

It doesn't make any sense to say he was killed for our sins knowing fully well that death has no power over him. Would I be scared of dying if I know that I will be resurrected three days after my death? So, basically his 'death' wasn't a sacrifice because he was resurrected, he wasn't left in the graves... that was my point.

okeyxyz:

Really? Can you name one field of endeavorer or discipline, occupation, life-achievement, etc that is not based on fear? Do you not study through the fear of failure? do you not work hard through the fear of poverty and hunger? Do you not take care of your health through the fear of disease & death? But I'm sure you believe those fears that spurred you to excel in life are good, but when it comes to christianity, common sense flies out the window. Why should the same principles as in practical real living not apply to spiritual people with spiritual quests?

I just laugh when you atheists recite the same phrases your "elders" teach you to say when arguing with christians: "Religion is based on fear", "Jesus did not sacrifice", "blah blah blah...", but never actually take time to ponder these sayings for sound logic.

No, not fear motivates all of my actions, especially moral decisions. For instance, I don't do good because I fear hell, I do it simply because I want to be good. So I have no idea what you're on about.

This is simple, look at it another way, dog training (wince all you want but it's an apt analogy). Basically you can train a dog to do anything without having to hit it once (and top pros without even having to raise their voices) with excellent results. The dog would be healthy, happy, and its behavior wouldn't be based around fear of a swift smack, but rather just because it wants to be good. It need not know fear or suffering, at all. That is another thing spread by many religions that puzzles me, that suffering is necessary. Anyways, not so with most of you guys, at all. It's all fear of hell fire, and when you start blindly fearing, the rest all falls into place. There's more, but I'll just leave it at that, for now...

And a sacrifice entails giving up something meaningful for crying out loud. Giving up something easily replaceable? Lol, no. An omnipotent cannot provide a sacrifice, except maybe its omnipotence. Your definition of omnipotent may vary though

doubleDx:


Even as a Christian, the idea that God actually sacrificed his 'only begotten Son for our sins' doesn't make any sense!

A sacrifice is an offering that cannot be retrieved and to say God sacrificed Christ to death for our sins then resurrected him and took him to heaven is plain silly.

It makes more sense to say Jesus came as a gift from God to enlighten humans about the 'power in loving each'. Jesus' teachings were all based on love and tolerance to achieve peace, greatness and perfection on Earth.

I don't see it as a sacrifice but a gift to enlighten us, because with love comes peace, joy and perfection. The stupid humans back then didn't understand his teachings which explains why they killed him.

exactly it wasn't more of a sacrifice but more like a gift.. He allowed himself to be crucified in order that he might stand as man’s "eternal salvation". He was in essence swying Look at what I can do. Look at what is true. And know that these things, and more, shall you also do. For have I not said, ye are gods? Yet you do not believe. If you cannot, then, believe in yourself, believe in me.... If you cannot believe that ye are gods as well and can do all these things that I do then atleast believe in me..Follow me and I will show you the way he said ...

Such was the Christ compassion that he created a way to so impact the world So that all might come to heaven (Self realization) ...If in no other way, then through him. For he defeated misery, and death. And so might you and I..us..

The grandest teaching of the Christ was not that we shall have everlasting life, because that we do have.....not that you shall have brotherhood in God, but that we do....not that you shall have whatever you request, because that we do. But all that is required is to KNOW this ..which he sought to tell us..

He sought to tell us, to remind us, that we can do and have everything we want. For as gods in flesh We are the creator of our realities and life can show up no other way for you than that way in which you think it will. You think it into being. This is the first step in creation. God the Father is thought. Our thought is the parent which gives birth to all things.. And that when the father and the son ( your thoughts and words ) and actions or deeds( spirit ) are in alignment and speaks with one force there is nothing that we cannot do.. this is what he sought to teach..

greatgenius: exactly it wasn't more of a sacrifice but more like a gift.. He allowed himself to be crucified in order that he might stand as man’s "eternal salvation". He was in essence swying Look at what I can do. Look at what is true. And know that these things, and more, shall you also do. For have I not said, ye are gods? Yet you do not believe. If you cannot, then, believe in yourself, believe in me.... If you cannot believe that ye are gods as well and can do all these things that I do then atleast believe in me..Follow me and I will show you the way he said ...

Such was the Christ compassion that he created a way to so impact the world So that all might come to heaven (Self realization) ...If in no other way, then through him. For he defeated misery, and death. And so might you and I..us..

The grandest teaching of the Christ was not that we shall have everlasting life, because that we do have.....not that you shall have brotherhood in God, but that we do....not that you shall have whatever you request, because that we do. But all that is required is to KNOW this ..which he sought to tell us..

He sought to tell us, to remind us, that we can do and have everything we want. For as gods in flesh We are the creator of our realities and life can show up no other way for you than that way in which you think it will. You think it into being. This is the first step in creation. God the Father is thought. Our thought is the parent which gives birth to all things.. And that when the father and the son ( your thoughts and words ) and actions or deeds( spirit ) are in alignment and speaks with one force there is nothing that we cannot do.. this is what he sought to teach..

Hmmmmm....deep bruv! Nice!!!

^^^^ well you wrote a nice piece so I figured I 'd collaborate and continue from where you left off..

And more to think about

greatgenius: the problem is people have misunderstood what jesus sought to accomplish..

what he sought to accomplish means nothing to us NIgerians. it is only relevant to those israelis, etc.

greatgenius: exactly it wasn't more of a sacrifice but more like a gift.. He allowed himself to be crucified in order that he might stand as man’s "eternal salvation". He was in essence swying Look at what I can do. Look at what is true. And know that these things, and more, shall you also do. For have I not said, ye are gods? Yet you do not believe. If you cannot, then, believe in yourself, believe in me.... If you cannot believe that ye are gods as well and can do all these things that I do then atleast believe in me..Follow me and I will show you the way he said ...

Such was the Christ compassion that he created a way to so impact the world So that all might come to heaven (Self realization) ...If in no other way, then through him. For he defeated misery, and death. And so might you and I..us..

The grandest teaching of the Christ was not that we shall have everlasting life, because that we do have.....not that you shall have brotherhood in God, but that we do....not that you shall have whatever you request, because that we do. But all that is required is to KNOW this ..which he sought to tell us..

He sought to tell us, to remind us, that we can do and have everything we want. For as gods in flesh We are the creator of our realities and life can show up no other way for you than that way in which you think it will. You think it into being. This is the first step in creation. God the Father is thought. Our thought is the parent which gives birth to all things.. And that when the father and the son ( your thoughts and words ) and actions or deeds( spirit ) are in alignment and speaks with one force there is nothing that we cannot do.. this is what he sought to teach..

Mehn!!! This is beautiful thoughts and writing. You show good spiritual awareness.

But I have just one criticism of your thoughts above and it is major. You started off with a fundamental error in trying to distinguish between gift(or love) and sacrifice, And when the fundamentals are wrong, it compromises the whole structure.

There is no difference between a gift(love) and sacrifice. It is only a gift to the reciever, but the person who is giving is making a sacrifice. Gifts are simply tokens of love(sacrifices), and the christian scripture highlights this in many teachings.

Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends(John 15:13)

PAGAN 9JA:


what he sought to accomplish means nothing to us NIgerians. it is only relevant to those israelis, etc.

why do you say that..do you represent all nigerians..are nigerians not humans..were the Israelites likewise not humans? Was jesus not human?.. must the truth come from your "kinsmen" before you listen . Just because his message has been "bastardize " and misinterpreted for obvious reasons does not take anything away from what he accomplished or sought to teach.

greatgenius: why do you say that..do you represent all nigerians..are nigerians not humans..were the Israelites likewise not humans? Was jesus not human?.. must the truth come from your "kinsmen" before you listen . Just because his message has been "bastardize " and misinterpreted for obvious reasons does not take anything away from what he accomplished or sought to teach.

ok so you want to play the "human" card, eh? then why are those ffellows not bothered about our culture, our religions , our JUJU, our Ifa divination, our Spirituality, our Leaders, etc. why are we(I MEAN "YOU" as "humans of Africa" always doing the A$$-licking

The sacrifice of jesus was not really a sacrifice. It was proper Legal Execution of a criminal traitor, under Roman Law and Legal Proceedings and by the Lower Court of the Sarheddin.

okeyxyz:

Mehn!!! This is beautiful thoughts and writing. You show good spiritual awareness.

But I have just one criticism of your thoughts above and it is major. You started off with a fundamental error in trying to distinguish between gift(or love) and sacrifice, And when the fundamentals are wrong, it compromises the whole structure.

There is no difference between a gift(love) and sacrifice. It is only a gift to the reciever, but the person who is giving is making a sacrifice. Gifts are simply tokens of love(sacrifices), and the christian scripture highlights this in many teachings.

Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends(John 15:13)

i understand your point god brother but there is a reason why i chose the word gift instead of sacrifice.. you have to understand that sacrifices are not always borne out of love..especially the ones based on conditions..

also read @ doublex two precious post to see why i started it off like i did

wiegraf:
No, not fear motivates all of my actions, especially moral decisions. For instance, I don't do good because I fear hell, I do it simply because I want to be good. So I have no idea what you're on about.

This is simple, look at it another way, dog training (wince all you want but it's an apt analogy). Basically you can train a dog to do anything without having to hit it once (and top pros without even having to raise their voices) with excellent results. The dog would be healthy, happy, and its behavior wouldn't be based around fear of a swift smack, but rather just because it wants to be good. It need not know fear or suffering, at all. That is another thing spread by many religions that puzzles me, that suffering is necessary. Anyways, not so with most of you guys, at all. It's all fear of hell fire, and when you start blindly fearing, the rest all falls into place. There's more, but I'll just leave it at that, for now...

Nice!! one bros, If for nothing at all, I admire your debating skills, your logic is clever(not necessarily truth) and worthy of engagement. The flaw in your arguments is that you are taking the points in backward sequence. Fine, you don't fear hell because you don't believe in any god, but you still have fears that compel you to do good, at least of which is a conscience or moral code. It weighs on you when you do evil and it rewards(eg endorphin boost) you when you do good. You may do good not because you love good, but maybe out of fear of the relationships you stand to lose, or out of fear of the stress and adverse consequences of doing evil, in whatever way it applies to you. Even the christian scripture acknowleges rewards(for good) and convictions(for evil) regardless of religion or god awareness.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them(Romans 2:15-16 )

The case of dog training without physical smacking also illustrates my points. A dog is rewarded for behaving as his trainer requests, and when it misbehaves, such a reward is withdrawn, so this dog learns to associate reward with good behaviour and loss of reward with bad behviour. So the fear of loss compels it to behave accordingly.

And a sacrifice entails giving up something meaningful for crying out loud. Giving up something easily replaceable? Lol, no. An omnipotent cannot provide a sacrifice, except maybe its omnipotence. Your definition of omnipotent may vary though

A fundamental flaw of most people is to assume that sacrifices are not replaceable or recoverable, but this is fallacious. People make sacrifices because they have a hope of a reward that is greater than what they are giving up(no matter how great or "meaningful" ) This is the case with jesus, dying and inheriting power and a superior life than he had before. A fat person who goes on diets and gym sessions suffers in doing in doing so, but he/she is aware that the health and social rewards of being slim, fit and healthy far outweighs the pains he goes through.