~Lady~,

~Lady~:

What is the difference between falling down and bowing to Jesus the man and falling down and bowing to any other regular man?

If Jesus was "any other regular man", I could see your point. But is that what the Bible teaches?

~Lady~:

Aren't both of them images, isn't man in the image of God?

Phew! I don't know how else to say this O. . .!! We have been through this same argument so many times now that it has been retired out of use!

Look carefully: where was it ever taught that anyone was asked to bow to man in worship? Whether or not it is graven images, is there anywhere the Bible teaches that we were asked to bow down and worship man as a "graven image"? The injunction in the Bible is clear O! He said do not make any graven images (Isaiah 42:8 -- "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.) Well, where can we find the teaching in the Bible that man was made as a "graven image"?

~Lady~:

Why did God permit the image of cherubims to be used for the ark of the covenant?

Where did God's Word teach that anyone was asked to bow down to those cherubims in the ark of covenant?

I'm sorry and don't want you to assume that I'm being rude by asking questions instead of giving answers. I have shared on this same issues with answers from the Bible in the other catholic threads before; I never was able to make others see the point - and that is why instead of filling pages, I approach these issues by asking simple questions. This is so that my fellow discussants would do a bit of reflection themselves. If the Bible teaches what you assume, then please simply quote the verse where it states that anyone was commanded to bow down to the cherubims.

~Lady~:

The first commandment forbids putting anything or anyone else in the position of God or above God.
So when you put money first you worship money, you can also worship sex even though sex is not an image.

That is true - thankfully, God has been faithful to help me worship neither of them. The question is that we should not be looking for excuses to continue in what we know violates His word.

~Lady~:

God made himself an image when he walked the earth in human form.

Wrong. God did not make Himself into a graven image when He walked the earth. The word used is is graven image - clear as it appears in Exodus 20:4 & 5 ~~

[list][list]⁴Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: ⁵Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.[/list][/list]

Haa! na serious matter to mistranslate His word O!

~Lady~:

So dear please what is the difference between the image of Jesus flesh and another man's flesh?

As above - (a) Jesus is not a "graven image"; second, (b) Jesus is Deity and not another man's flesh!

If Jesus was "any other regular man", I could see your point. But is that what the Bible teaches?

exactly my point Jesus has the same body that man has, yet we don't bow to man, why?

Phew! I don't know how else to say this O. . .!! We have been through this same argument so many times now that it has been retired out of use! 

Look carefully: where was it ever taught that anyone was asked to bow to man in worship? Whether or not it is graven images, is there anywhere the Bible teaches that we were asked to bow down and worship man as a "graven image"? The injunction in the Bible is clear O!  He said do not make any graven images (Isaiah 42:8 -- "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.) Well, where can we find the teaching in the Bible that man was made as a "graven image"?

So why not bow to a man, if man is not a graven image?

Where did God's Word teach that anyone was asked to bow down to those cherubims in the ark of covenant?

The cherubims were a part of the ark, the were mounted on top of the ark, yet everyone bowed before the ark of the covenant. Even David danced in front of it, note that the ark wasn't worshipped but the Lord's presence was in it, and they knew this. The ark was pure and could never be undefiled, even the statue god by one of the pagan countries, I can't remember the name right now was found prostrate before the Lord. The ark of the covenant was in no doubt held in high regards, and was widely protected by the Israelites. It was reverenced and venerated. The ark was no joke to them.

There is no way you can disagree with me that the ark of the covenant is holy and undefiled.

Why am I mentioning the ark of the covenant? Because Catholics believe that Mary is the ark of the covenant, she is the one who housed the Word of God just as the ark housed it in the Old Testament, she housed the bread of life come from heaven, the ark housed the bread come from heaven (manna), I mean there's so much more to it.
My favorite is that the ark of the covenant shows up in God's Temple in heaven but this time it's in the form of a woman. When St. John wrote down what he saw, he did not have chapters and verses, it just continued, so the ark that he saw was the woman, and she was giving birth to the messiah (Jesus) and we all know that Mary is the mother of Jesus, there is no other woman that could be the ark, no other woman that could represent the ark, Mary's title does not just include ark of the covenant but also mother of the Church, if the Church is supposed to be the body of Christ and Mary is the mother of Christ, certainly she would be our mother. But also because we are co-heirs to the throne as Christ is the heir to the throne and we are his brothers, well if Mary is his mother that would make her our mother too, and I do remember the commandment asking us to honor our mother and father.
In african culture we know very well that a way of showing respect is to bow before someone especially our mother and we kneel too when we greet, well at least in Edo and yoruba culture that's how it goes.

And then about her virginity to even think that Joseph would be so presumptious that he would touch the ark of the covenant is wrong, to even think that Mary who would bear the Word of God would be defiled is wrong. To think that God just doesn't care for who is worthy to be his mother is wrong. He prepared her and kept her from all stain, to even think that God would allow himself to dwell within a sinner, I mean seriously that's just ridiculous and blasphemous. Since when is God able to dwell within sin?

Even the statue  The bronze serpent is also an image what is the difference between the bronze serpent and the ark and the images or icons used by Catholics, aren't they made by man's hands, and aren't they from things of the earth.
Note please that bow down and worship are not the same thing, just because people bow down to someone does not mean that they are worshipping it.

What annoys me the most is the honor people give to their mother yet the Mother of Our Lord should just be pushed aside, since when?

I'm sorry and don't want you to assume that I'm being rude by asking questions instead of giving answers. I have shared on this same issues with answers from the Bible in the other catholic threads before; I never was able to make others see the point - and that is why instead of filling pages, I approach these issues by asking simple questions. This is so that my fellow discussants would do a bit of reflection themselves. If the Bible teaches what you assume, then please simply quote the verse where it states that anyone was commanded to bow down to the cherubims.

I don't assume you're being rude, I too am asking you questions so that you will give the answer to it yourself. Trust me you'll answer your questions.
Nope bow down was not a command and neither is it a command that we all bow down to Mary. Yet in bowing we show reverence, even people would reverence Peter, they took the sick to the street in hopes that Peter's shadow may fall on them, I believe this is in Acts of the Apostles.

That is true - thankfully, God has been faithful to help me worship neither of them. The question is that we should not be looking for excuses to continue in what we know violates His word.

I too am grateful to God for not permitting me to worship neither of them or anyone else, and that includes Mary. The point is reverencing God's faithful is not worship of them. Putting them above God is worship of them, but honoring them and asking for their prayers is not and praying with them is not.
Revelations lets us know that the prayers of the faithful are raised up to heaven, and St. Paul tells us that even death cannot separate us. So those who died in Christ are still part of the body of Christ, and being part of the body of Christ means exchangig gifts that we have, we cannot cut them off and say to them that we do not need them because we do, and St. Paul states that. The Bible itself states that these people cannot be separated from us yet Non-Catholics are saying that we have no connection to the dead. Well which one is it? Are we separated from them or not?

Wrong. God did not make Himself into a graven image when He walked the earth. The word used is is graven image - clear as it appears in Exodus 20:4 & 5 ~~


4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

Haa! na serious matter to mistranslate His word O!

What about the bronze serpent in the desert, through it God saved the people of Israel. Is that also idolatry? Don't forget that Jesus likened himself to the serpent, he said "Just as the Moses lifted up the serpent, so must the Son of Man"
What is the difference between the golden calf and the serpent, they were both made by man's hands and they were both graven images.

As above - (a) Jesus is not a "graven image"; second, (b) Jesus is Deity and not another man's flesh!

You still didn't answer the question of why not bow before man as you would before Jesus, they both have flesh, a man's flesh is not a graven image you've established that, so if it was 'graven image' as you vision it why not bow before man?

For the simple reason that man is not Deity.

For the simple reason that man is not Deity.

Now you know why we don't worship Mary. She is not Deity.

~Lady~:

Now you know why we don't worship Mary. She is not Deity.

(1) And what about the fact that Mary has been ascribed the divine title meant for God alone? - the Glory of Israel?

(2) What about the graven images of Mary that some Catholics bow down to? Or are they also not catholics?

(3) What about the fact that some Catholics pray to Mary? Is that a fact that could be denied as well?

(4) Why is it that up until now, no Vatican "bull" has been released to disavow what the Bishops have called Mary - the Saviour of the people of Rome?

It is easy to claim that no Catholic worships Mary; nor bows down to her or her graven images or statues; nor pray to Mary, etc. The fact is that simplistic assertions are not all there is in this matter - for we know that Catholics do so, and mere assertions do not erase the evidence.

Strange that the world stood still at the funeral of Pope John Paul II. He administered the sacrament of confession all his years as a priest, and was also a 'worshiper of Mary'.

4 million [/b]people (muslims, buddhists, hindus, christians etc etc etc etc) flocked to Rome attend the funeral.
[b]Billions watched the funeral on TV.

Long time enemies stood side-by-side and greeted one another in peace:
- Jews and Arabs
- Americans and Arabs
- Iraqis and Iranians
- Communists and Capitalists
- Dignitaries from many warring nations
- etc etc etc etc

It must be good to go for confession and be a "worshiper of Mary" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@~Lady~,

~Lady~:

exactly my point Jesus has the same body that man has, yet we don't bow to man, why?

So why not bow to a man, if man is not a graven image?

Answered already. You may want to study the reason why Mordecai would not bow to Haman (Esther 3:5). When we read instances where men bowed to other men, it helps to understand the context - it had nothing to do with worship (see 1 Chron. 21:21 as an example). Do not assume that references to men bowing to men is necessarily encouraging the practice of Mariolatry or Mary-graven-image-veneration. Godly men who knew the import of this thing quite understood that bowing down to anything, anywhere and to anyone at any time other than to the LORD was a sin (2 Kings 5:18). We should not be seeking to justify our violation of God's Word because of our cherished traditions.

~Lady~:

The cherubims were a part of the ark, the were mounted on top of the ark, yet everyone bowed before the ark of the covenant. Even David danced in front of it, note that the ark wasn't worshipped but the Lord's presence was in it, and they knew this. The ark was pure and could never be undefiled, even the statue god by one of the pagan countries, I can't remember the name right now was found prostrate before the Lord. The ark of the covenant was in no doubt held in high regards, and was widely protected by the Israelites. It was reverenced and venerated. The ark was no joke to them.

Mary's statues are directly bowed to in veneration of Mary - hence Mariolatry. The cherubims do not represent the LORD, and people were not bowing down to the ark. When Israel went to worship, it was not to anything they bowed - directly or indirectly - and that is why we read: "O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker." [Psa. 95:6]

The word is clear: "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God." [Leviticus 26:1].

Unless you categorically have a commandment where God asked you to make statutes of Mary and bow down to her, asserting this and that will not help the case. do you have such a commandment from God on this matter?

imhotep:

He administered the sacrament of confession all his years as a priest, and was also a 'worshiper of Mary'.

Well, na you know.

St. Pio of Pietrelcina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pio_of_Pietrelcina) was a priest who administered the sacrament of confession all his years as a priest, and was also a 'worshiper of Mary'.

He carried the Stigmata (wounds of Christ) for 50 years of his life, and many many miracles are attributed to him. He is also said to have been able to bi-locate (to be in 2 places at the same time). He died in 1968.

His body was exhumed sometime this year and looks like this =>

[img]http://jytmkh.files./2008/05/_44597479_bodyafp466.jpg[/img]

It REALLY must be good to be a 'worshiper of Mary'

pilgrim.1:

Well, na you know.

My sister. How are you doing?

imhotep:

My sister. How are you doing?

Bros boo. . . I dey. Still my naughty self. How are you? I was taking time to go through your entries while I was on "sabatical". hmm. . you still be the real "imhotep!" God bless you.

(1) And what about the fact that Mary has been ascribed the divine title meant for God alone? - the Glory of Israel?

You still haven't provided me with document, and I will research this more from the Bible and Church before I can answer you.
You may have missed some parts in the Bible, or may have taken things out of context, so until more info on this can be found there won't be an answer on it from me. Please show references, and make sure they are accessible.

What about the graven images of Mary that some Catholics bow down to? Or are they also not catholics

Oh yes that's right you've already convinced yourself that those are graven images and instead you don't see them as anything but, so it doesn't matter if I say we don't worship them as long as you've convinced yourself that those are graven images and you see people bow to them then that means it must be worshipped, what you failed to do is answer my question on the bronze serpent and the ark. why were images made out of gold and bronze held in high regards and even one of them contained the Word of God and the other one well it was the saviour of the Isrealites in the desert, so weren't those graven images too? And why were they permitted?
What's worse is that one was in the image of a serpent, how can a serpent be good here?

What about the fact that some Catholics pray to Mary? Is that a fact that could be denied as well?

Oh no not at all, infact I am actually doing a devotion to Mary, I'm sure at this point you think I am an idolator and that's fine and dandy.
Infact it is encouraged, because see a prayer is a petition and in the prayer you ask for help. What people don't realise is that when they say mummy pray for me they are praying to their mother also, for as long as they're petitioning they're praying so I guess we all should stop asking for help or petitioning.
But asking Mother Mary to pray for me or petitioning Mother Mary to petition for me or Praying to Mother Mary to pray for me is highly encouraged because her intercession is powerful. Who better than to reach the heart of a child than the mother. See people underestimate the bond between Mother and Child, the biggest mistake Non-Catholics make is expecting Jesus to not listen to his Mother, like do we expect him to dishonour her?
And no she is not just a random woman that was chosen she was planned from the beginning, because Christ too was planned from the beginning, God didn't decide later on to send his Son forth to the earth born of a woman, o no he let us know that enmity would be put between the woman and the serpent. The woman is very important here, and well we know that Mary had to be without sin because God can't dwell in sin.
So we do pray to Mary and we proudly say thank you to her for her help. We know the one person that Christ would never turn away would be his mother, she gave birth to him, nursed him, raised him, and a sword pierced her soul when she watched her Son die on the cross, she is the sorrowful mother, no child can look at his mother's sorrow and turn away from her.
Or do you think Christ would dishonour his mother by simply dismissing her and treating her like any regular person, if he would, he would dishonour her, and we know Christ isn't going to sin or go against himself, HE IS THE COMMANDMENT.  

Why is it that up until now, no Vatican "bull" has been released to disavow what the Bishops have called Mary - the Saviour of the people of Rome?

I believe she plays a role in our salvation, so I don't see what the problem there is. Or do you not believe she plays a role in our salvation? and if so why? please explain because I would think the woman who allowed God's will in her life, and humbled herself and accepted the vocation given her and carried out her duties to the glory of God, and gave birth to God, who is our savior had a role in our salvation.

It is easy to claim that no Catholic worships Mary; nor bows down to her or her graven images or statues; nor pray to Mary, etc. The fact is that simplistic assertions are not all there is in this matter - for we know that Catholics do so, and mere assertions do not erase the evidence

That's right you don't understand what worship and prayer is. Well anyway. I gave a nice litle write up above and would like for you to disprove it.

I also have more write ups and would put them now, because I have to be gone for a few days I have too much work so maybe this would keep you occupied.

ON MARY:::

Mary was "in the first instant of her conception, by the singular grace and privilege of the all-powerful God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved from all stain of original sin."

This article of faith is founded upon Scripture and upon the constant Tradition of the Church. Since God Himself had announced from the beginning of the world that Mary was destined "to crush the head" of the infernal serpent through her Divine Son, she could not have begun her life by beng wounded herself by is poisonous bite and subject to his power. The Archagel Gabriel called her "full of grace" because she never was deprived of sanctifying grace, and consequently she possessed this grace n the first moment of her conception.

The Father and writers of the Church compare Mary to the ark of Noah which alone escaped the universal deluge; to the thornbush which Moses saw burning, but not consumed; to the enclosed garden to the rod of Aaron which, when laid in the ark, budded and blossomed witout having aken root; to the fleece of Gideon which remained dry while the ground all around it became moist with dew. They look upon Mary as the Queen who came from the Most High, perfect, beautiful, and without original sin; as the paradise of innocence which God Himself planted and protected against all the attacks of the poisonous serpent.

[b]Reason, too, approves of Mary's Immaculate Conception, for this privilege corresponds with her sublime vocation. She was the throne of God, the wonderful palace in which the Son of God chose to dwell for nine months. Her womb was the chosen place honored by the nysterious working of the Holy Spirit. If everyting that comes in contact with God must be pure and immaculate, purity was necessary for her, the vessel in which the Son of God formed His Flesh and Blood. Her Immculate Conception is a brilliant witness to the sanctity of Jesus, her Son.

If Jesus, the Son of God, could choose for is Mother her who pleased Him most, He would surely choose one acceptable to the Blessed Trinity and worthy of the great honor for which she was destined. Mary was, therefore not only fre from all actual sin, but she also remained exemt from original sin; otherwise, she would not have been a Mother suitable for Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

As Eve received natural life from Adam, Mary receives spiritual life, the life of grace through her Son. If Eve ws originally immaculae, Mary, who is superior to Eve in merits, could not be inferior to her in dignity. Since Eve was immaculate in her formation, Mary must have been immaculate in her conception.[/b]

{Immaculate means to be free from spot or stain, for those of you who don't know what it is}

Sinless cannot dwell in sinful, if Mary was sinful she would not have been Jesus' mother.

Please if any of the above cannot be true then address it, and then I would be back to reply. If you hold this to be true then I would continue with the other "misunderstandings of Mary"
But I would need an answer from you.

When we read instances where men bowed to other men, it helps to understand the context - it had nothing to do with worship (see 1 Chron. 21:21 as an example). Do not assume that references to men bowing to men is necessarily encouraging the practice of Mariolatry or Mary-graven-image-veneration.

WHOA!!! So you know this and yet you still don't understand? Did it ever occur to you that Mariolatry is exactly the same as what these men were doing. Did it ever occur to you the context in which Mariolatry is taken or is it because it's given a name that makes you eerie of it?
I mean why don't you know what it is before you become skeptical of it?
Because we give a special honour to Mary means we must worship her, did it ever occur to you that we honor God through his holy ones as is stated in the Bible?
Jesus himself honored God when he spoke of Abraham and Jacob and the patriarchs.

What is it about Mary that sends chills up your spine? Is it because she's a woman? Isn't Jesus a man, and if he's the New Adam won't that make Mary the New Eve or do you think God would leave women out of it. Does it make sense to you that he would create Adam and Eve, and then when both sins he makes a New Adam but leaves out the new Eve? So should we still be bound by Eve?
I mean wouldn't it make sense, that if God is taking things back to the way it was supposed to be that he would really take it back to the way it was supposed to be and not skip a part. If he skipped the new Eve part then his plan isn't complete.

Mary's statues are directly bowed to in veneration of Mary - hence Mariolatry

Veneration - the act of venerating or to venerate; venerate- to reverence

So please what is wrong with reverence. David leaped for joy in front of the ark of the covenant, when Uzzah touched it he died, so there must have been some high reverence of the ark of the covenant or else it would not have been held in such high regards.

And yet you know the Israelites were saved by looking to the serpent, I mean isn't that an image, infact isn't that a graven image? what is the difference between the image of the serpent and the image of the calf? what is the difference between the golden calf and the bronze serpent?

And by the way it's not Mariolatry. The veneration of Mary is not Mariolatry. That's the definition that non-catholics have chosen to call the veneration of Mary, but I haven't found a church document that calls it that. So please don't call it mariolatry.

The proper term is Mariology which is the study of Mary, it tries to show the relationship of Mary to Jesus with the use of Scripture and Church tradition.
So please use the proper term, thanks.

@~Lady~,

~Lady~:

You still haven't provided me with document, and I will research this more from the Bible and Church before I can answer you.

Please refer to the previous page and harvest the links I offered. they will take you to the other thread where I have more than provided articulated evidence to the fact. Pick any from there and treat. I apologise upfront that I'm too lazy to reharsh the same retired arguments here.

~Lady~:

You may have missed some parts in the Bible, or may have taken things out of context, so until more info on this can be found there won't be an answer on it from me. Please show references, and make sure they are accessible.

The references have been offered as pointed out above. Please point out the "out of context" issues you find therein.

~Lady~:

Oh yes that's right you've already convinced yourself that those are graven images and instead you don't see them as anything but, so it doesn't matter if I say we don't worship them as long as you've convinced yourself that those are graven images and you see people bow to them then that means it must be worshipped, what you failed to do is answer my question on the bronze serpent and the ark. why were images made out of gold and bronze held in high regards and even one of them contained the Word of God and the other one well it was the saviour of the Isrealites in the desert, so weren't those graven images too? And why were they permitted?

Unless you deliberately missed them, here again:

(a) there is no reference in the Bible that anyone bowed down to those images to worship them. They were never at any time venerated as Catholics venerate the images of Mary. If you find the quotes, please oblige us.

(2) I did not make up my mind. I asked questions, I got denials instead. I then offered evidence; what greeted me was absolute silence and nothing to counter those claims.

What I read here from you is not a clear pointer to show that the references I offered are not as they say. Rather, you have only been arguing evasively, which is not the same thing as definitive answers from the Bible.

~Lady~:

What's worse is that one was in the image of a serpent, how can a serpent be good here?

Did they venerate those serpents? Which of the Catholic doctrine of latria, dulia, and hyperdulia did Israel apply to the bronze serpent? If you cannot find any such, what then is the basis of assuming what was never stated in Scripture?

You sound more like assuming things with a strained polarization where you haven't reasoned things through. Arguing for the serpent does not mean they venerated or worshipped or paryed to it. if you think otherwise, please no long arguments, just post the verses to show us.

~Lady~:

Oh no not at all, infact I am actually doing a devotion to Mary, I'm sure at this point you think I am an idolator and that's fine and dandy.

If you want to call yourself such, that's fine. But don't assume I have alleged that at you when I didn't do so.

~Lady~:

Infact it is encouraged, because see a prayer is a petition and in the prayer you ask for help. What people don't realise is that when they say mummy pray for me they are praying to their mother also, for as long as they're petitioning they're praying so I guess we all should stop asking for help or petitioning.
But asking Mother Mary to pray for me or petitioning Mother Mary to petition for me or Praying to Mother Mary to pray for me is highly encouraged because her intercession is powerful. Who better than to reach the heart of a child than the mother. See people underestimate the bond between Mother and Child, the biggest mistake Non-Catholics make is expecting Jesus to not listen to his Mother, like do we expect him to dishonour her?

Lol, I have dealt with this same issue in the other thread. I wish you would take some time and go through before repeating the same thing here, so that fresh issues will be dealt with. Prayer to Mary cannot be justified in God's Word.

~Lady~:

And no she is not just a random woman that was chosen she was planned from the beginning, because Christ too was planned from the beginning, God didn't decide later on to send his Son forth to the earth born of a woman, o no he let us know that enmity would be put between the woman and the serpent. The woman is very important here, and well we know that Mary had to be without sin because God can't dwell in sin.
So we do pray to Mary and we proudly say thank you to her for her help. We know the one person that Christ would never turn away would be his mother, she gave birth to him, nursed him, raised him, and a sword pierced her soul when she watched her Son die on the cross, she is the sorrowful mother, no child can look at his mother's sorrow and turn away from her.
Or do you think Christ would dishonour his mother by simply dismissing her and treating her like any regular person, if he would, he would dishonour her, and we know Christ isn't going to sin or go against himself, HE IS THE COMMANDMENT.
I believe she plays a role in our salvation, so I don't see what the problem there is. Or do you not believe she plays a role in our salvation? and if so why? please explain because I would think the woman who allowed God's will in her life, and humbled herself and accepted the vocation given her and carried out her duties to the glory of God, and gave birth to God, who is our savior had a role in our salvation.

Nothing new. It only goes to show that the Bishops who referred to Mary as the saviour of the people of Rome do so out of tradition, not out of regard to God's Word.

~Lady~:

When we read instances where men bowed to other men, it helps to understand the context - it had nothing to do with worship (see 1 Chron. 21:21 as an example). Do not assume that references to men bowing to men is necessarily encouraging the practice of Mariolatry or Mary-graven-image-veneration.

WHOA!!! So you know this and yet you still don't understand? Did it ever occur to you that Mariolatry is exactly the same as what these men were doing. Did it ever occur to you the context in which Mariolatry is taken or is it because it's given a name that makes you eerie of it?

Lol. . . rather than express shock, please simply point out what in my quote refers to any one of the catholic doctrine of latria, dulia, or hyperdulia.

I know what I stated, and nothing in those references justifies what Catholicism claims for Mary. I asked questions which are yet unattended - just roundabout arguments is all I have been reading from you. Do you care to offer simple verses (as I did) to show where latria, dulia, or hyperdulia was ever used in reference to:

               ~~ the worship of man

               ~~ the worship of the bronze serpent

               ~~ the worship of cherubims

               ~~ the worship of graven images?

Verses will be more helpful than the arguments filling pages that are saying nothing as yet.

Cheers.

But asking Mother Mary to pray for me or petitioning Mother Mary to petition for me or Praying to Mother Mary to pray for me is highly encouraged because her intercession is powerful. Who better than to reach the heart of a child than the mother. See people underestimate the bond between Mother and Child, the biggest mistake Non-Catholics make is expecting Jesus to not listen to his Mother, like do we expect him to dishonour her?

this is unbelievable!
Madam, read your bible well . . . God merely used Mary as the vessel through which He came to earth in human form . . . Mary is NOT the mother of Christ in the physical sense of the word "mother" . . . her eggs did not bear Christ at all, rather she was concieved of the Holy Ghost . . . on that the bible is abundantly clear.

Why do you expect Christ, the creator of heaven and earth, the alpha and the omega, the begining and the end, to listen to a mere vessel that He created with His own hands?

The bible clearly identifies the intercessor of the brethren . . . it is the LAMB of God and not Mary. This is heresy at its best, covered in the cloak of religiosity.

davidylan have you read the book of mary? . . . . . . .

mazaje:

davidylan have you read the book of mary? . . . . . . .

Why? I can read a novel instead.

how did you know her egg was not fertilized by a sperm eh david? were you there?

omoge:

how did you know her egg was not fertilized by a sperm eh david? were you there?

maybe you can educate me on whose sperm did the fertilization.

Please refer to the previous page and harvest the links I offered. they will take you to the other thread where I have more than provided articulated evidence to the fact. Pick any from there and treat. I apologise upfront that I'm too lazy to reharsh the same retired arguments here

Lol well then we're both in a bit of a pickle because I too am lazy to go looking and reading through.

(a) there is no reference in the Bible that anyone bowed down to those images to worship them. They were never at any time venerated as Catholics venerate the images of Mary. If you find the quotes, please oblige us

and we do not bow down to worship. that's the key, you don't bow to worship. you don't have to bow to worship, you can worship standing, but for as long as you put something above God you are worshipping it. In the desert the serpent was their saviour I thought only God could be the savior and Christ did say that just as the serpent was lifted up so must the Son of Man.
I bow before my mum but that doesn't mean that I worship her, you can sit and worship, you can lay down and worship.
But just because you bow does not mean you worship ok. So saying that we bow to worship is wrong, we don't bow to worship We venerate, we reverence, we can kneel. Perfect example, when a man is proposing to a woman he kneels does that mean he is doing so to worship. In old english they bowed their heads to show respect and reverence, I'm sure you are very familiar with the "curtsy and bow" well do they bow to worship.
The key is that you do not bow to worship. You can reverence you can venerate but you can't worship.
So I think that's what's confusing you, you think we bow to worship, and we do not.

2) I did not make up my mind. I asked questions, I got denials instead. I  then offered evidence; what greeted me was absolute silence and nothing to counter those claims

what i mean is that you think that if anyone bows the must be doing so to show a form of worship, you may not realise that people bow without worshipping, they bow to show respect too.
That's the key, you don't bow to worship, you don't elevate Mary to the level of God.

Did they venerate those serpents? Which of the Catholic doctrine of latria, dulia, and hyperdulia did Israel apply to the bronze serpent? If you cannot find any such, what then is the basis of assuming what was never stated in Scripture?

I believe they looked up to the serpent as it was their saviour and that is my point, the difference between the golden calf and the serpent is that they elevated the calf to the level of God and used the calf as their god. But the serpent though it was an image and not different from the calf physically, it was not elevated to the position of God.
That is the difference between an image and a graven image. Money can be a graven image, if you elevate it to the position of God and so can sex.

The difference between Jesus and man is that though they are in the same form and the same image, one is in the position of God, rightfully so, and the other isn't.

That has been my whole point.

You sound more like assuming things with a strained polarization where you haven't reasoned things through. Arguing for the serpent does not mean they venerated or worshipped or paryed to it. if you think otherwise, please no long arguments, just post the verses to show us.

That was never my point, don't misunderstand me. My point is that while the serpent was in an image no different from the calf it was not elevated to the position of God as the calf was.
I was trying to get you to see that just because it's an image does not mean that it is worshipped.

Lol, I have dealt with this same issue in the other thread. I wish you would take some time and go through before repeating the same thing here, so that fresh issues will be dealt with. Prayer to Mary cannot be justified in God's Word.

Then why do you pray to your mother? Because if ever you ask your mother or anyone else to pray for you you are indeed praying to them.
Ever heard the phrase "I pray thee"? well what do you think it means?

Nothing new. It only goes to show that the Bishops who referred to Mary as the saviour of the people of Rome do so out of tradition, not out of regard to God's Word.

You still didn't address any of the points or issues I brought up. And by the way we are asked to hang on to what has been handed down to us. St. Paul says so.
God's Word itself is tradition, so how can you be against tradition and not be against God's Word? If you are against the Church tradition, you are against God's Word, because God's Word is sacred tradition.

Lol. . . rather than express shock, please simply point out what in my quote refers to any one of the catholic doctrine of latria, dulia, or hyperdulia

I didn't know you wanted that I thought you were just making a statement and I picked up on it. But here it goes, dulia is what you speak of when you state that these men bow not out of worship. chron 21:21 for example.

I know what I stated, and nothing in those references justifies what Catholicism claims for Mary. I asked questions which are yet unattended - just roundabout arguments is all I have been reading from you. Do you care to offer simple verses (as I did) to show where latria, dulia, or hyperdulia was ever used in reference

You are asking me to prove something that we do not do. You are looking for me to justify the worship of Mary when infact we do not worship Mary. You think that if someone bows in front of an image then that means that the image is being worshipped, when in fact I have shown that an image was venerated but not to worship and you yourself gave an example of men bowing without worship, and what you did was provide proof for Catholicism's claim that you don't have to worship when you bow.

the worship of man

~~ the worship of the bronze serpent

~~ the worship of cherubims

~~ the worship of graven images?

Do not ask me to prove something that we do not believe in. I know you didn't get your references from a Catholic site or eligitimate one, because Mariolatry is against Church teaching and is not found in Church doctrine to be what we should do.
So when you stop using a standard that doesn't apply to us, then you'll get your answers.

Verses will be more helpful than the arguments filling pages that are saying nothing as yet.

You can't ask me to show you verses on what we do not believe in. What I've been saying is that just because it's an image doesn't mean it is worshipped.

bad guy

pilgrim.1:

Verses will be more helpful than the arguments filling pages that are saying nothing as yet.

Thank you, i thot i was the only one tired of the usual "fill the entire thread with meaningless words as a way of dodging the real issue" prank.

omoge:


bad guy

my sister, no be my fault o. Abi na u impregnant mary?

~Lady~:

You are asking me to prove something that we do not do. You are looking for me to justify the worship of Mary when infact we do not worship Mary. You think that if someone bows in front of an image then that means that the image is being worshipped, when in fact I have shown that an image was venerated but not to worship and you yourself gave an example of men bowing without worship, and what you did was provide proof for Catholicism's claim that you don't have to worship when you bow.

this woman is confusion personified.

Here is the 3rd commandment - Exodus 20: 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God,

the presence of "or" in that statement clearly indicates that bowing is NOT the same as worshipping but BOTH are biblically WRONG!

this is unbelievable!  
Madam, read your bible well . . . God merely used Mary as the vessel through which He came to earth in human form . . . Mary is NOT the mother of Christ in the physical sense of the word "mother" . . . her eggs did not bear Christ at all, rather she was concieved of the Holy Ghost . . . on that the bible is abundantly clear

Do you really need me to start teaching you about the birds and the bees and how it is a baby is formed in the womb?
What happens when a woman conceives, does she conceive by herself? Or does something else take place, I blieve naturally it takes sperm, which means that for you to say that she conceived of the Holy Spirit and she didn't have Christ in her eggs then when a woman conceives in order for her to have the baby in her eggs she must have conceived on her own?

Second point is do you dwell in the womb of a woman to know what goes on in there?

Third point is that Jesus would not have taken on the form of a human if he wasn't in Mary's eggs. Maybe you don't know what conception is, but it means that an egg has been fertilized. If it was not in the egg it was not conception it meant that Jesus came as a form of tumor.'
Anything other than an egg that grows in a woman's womb is a tumor

Secondly if Mary is not the mother of Christ, then Jesus isn't the christ. When a mother gives birth she doesn't give birth to a thing and then the spirit joins it after the birth of the child and then making it human, that means baby isn't human until after the birth, and baby isn't alive until after the birth.
Now we know that Mary gave birth to a person, because never a time was Jesus separate from his two natures. There was never a point he was human and then another point he was divine, he was both human and divine at all times. The person of Jesus is both human and divine, Mary gave birth to Jesus te person, not just Jesus the human.
We dealt with that heresy a long time ago, look it up

So Mary is the mother of God the Son, Jesus the Christ. And yes Jesus formed in an egg, if he didn't he wouldn't be human, he would be a tumor.

Why do you expect Christ, the creator of heaven and earth, the alpha and the omega, the begining and the end, to listen to a mere vessel that He created with His own hands?  

Well when she asked for wine at the weding at Cana he did listen and did perform the miracle she wanted. ANd well I believe we're just human and I believe Jesus listens to me, sorry that you  don't believe he listens to you but he listens to me and he listens to his mother. So sorry for you, but dude I'm getting miracles off the ying yang cause he listens to me, you might want to start believing that he listens to mere humans.

And Mary was not just a mere vessel, if she was she wouldn't have been fit to carry God in her womb for nine months, I believe nothing impure can touch God, unless you're trying to say that God can dwell in sin.
God only dwells in holy places. Mary has to be holy for God to dwell in her. Not just anyone could carry the Son of God, it had to be the one "full of grace"

The bible clearly identifies the intercessor of the brethren . . . it is the LAMB of God and not Mary. This is heresy at its best, covered in the cloak of religiosity.

Um the Bible asks us to interceed for one another, but there can only be one mediator and that is Jesus the Christ and that is what the Church teaches.

Dear be careful not to deny Christ his divinity by denying his mother, heretics tried to do so early in christianity and the title of Mother of God was given to Mary to silence them.

yawn, simple issues . . . another long long long-winded story.

~Lady~:

Do you really need me to start teaching you about the birds and the bees and how it is a baby is formed in the womb?
What happens when a woman conceives, does she conceive by herself? Or does something else take place, I blieve naturally it takes sperm, which means that for you to say that she conceived of the Holy Spirit and she didn't have Christ in her eggs then when a woman conceives in order for her to have the baby in her eggs she must have conceived on her own?

since when did we bring Christ down to our level that the Lord who even the winds and the sea obey, He whom the devils here His voice and tremble is now subject to the laws of biology? I tire for people o . . .

~Lady~:

Third point is that Jesus would not have taken on the form of a human if he wasn't in Mary's eggs. Maybe you don't know what conception is, but it means that an egg has been fertilized. If it was not in the egg it was not conception it meant that Jesus came as a form of tumor.'
Anything other than an egg that grows in a woman's womb is a tumor

The Lord have mercy. Baba see these faithless generation . . . they say you had no power to take on human form except through Mary's eggs. Baba . . . i give them up to you.

~Lady~:

Secondly if Mary is not the mother of Christ, then Jesus isn't the christ.

Na wa o. Baba . . . they even deny your Lordship . . . what else will they say? That you wouldnt have died if Joseph did not teach you carpentry?

~Lady~:

When a mother gives birth she doesn't give birth to a thing and then the spirit joins it after the birth of the child and then making it human, that means baby isn't human until after the birth, and baby isn't alive until after the birth.

Baba i know you see and hear all these but i just need to report them. They say you werent human or alive until you came out of Mary?
you who created Mary from the dust of the earth and the blast of your nostrils?

~Lady~:

ANd well I believe we're just human and I believe Jesus listens to me, sorry that you don't believe he listens to you but he listens to me and he listens to his mother. So sorry for you, but dude I'm getting miracles off the ying yang cause he listens to me, you might want to start believing that he listens to mere humans.

My dear dont use your usual hypocritical forcing words others didnt say into their mouths to curse me o pls. Christ listens to me well because He promised to. The REAL ISSUE is whether He listens to you through His dead mother . . . His bible said no such thing.

~Lady~:

And Mary was not just a mere vessel, if she was she wouldn't have been fit to carry God in her womb for nine months, I believe nothing impure can touch God, unless you're trying to say that God can dwell in sin.

If God could speak through the ass of balaam why could He not dwell in the womb of Mary? Kai . . . Baba see these heretics. I tire for them.

~Lady~:

Um the Bible asks us to interceed for one another, but there can only be one mediator and that is Jesus the Christ and that is what the Church teaches.

True but He didnt say we should intercede through the dead.

~Lady~:

Dear be careful not to deny Christ his divinity by denying his mother, heretics tried to do so early in christianity and the title of Mother of God was given to Mary to silence them.

Haba Baba but this is too much ke. they say you are not divine without your mother? I don tire o . . . wetin dem go talk again?

this is unbelievable!  
Madam, read your bible well . . . God merely used Mary as the vessel through which He came to earth in human form . . . Mary is NOT the mother of Christ in the physical sense of the word "mother" . . . her eggs did not bear Christ at all, rather she was concieved of the Holy Ghost . . . on that the bible is abundantly clear

Do you really need me to start teaching you about the birds and the bees and how it is a baby is formed in the womb?
What happens when a woman conceives, does she conceive by herself? Or does something else take place, I blieve naturally it takes sperm, which means that for you to say that she conceived of the Holy Spirit and she didn't have Christ in her eggs then when a woman conceives in order for her to have the baby in her eggs she must have conceived on her own?

Second point is do you dwell in the womb of a woman to know what goes on in there?

Third point is that Jesus would not have taken on the form of a human if he wasn't in Mary's eggs. Maybe you don't know what conception is, but it means that an egg has been fertilized. If it was not in the egg it was not conception it meant that Jesus came as a form of tumor.'
Anything other than an egg that grows in a woman's womb is a tumor

Secondly if Mary is not the mother of Christ, then Jesus isn't the christ. When a mother gives birth she doesn't give birth to a thing and then the spirit joins it after the birth of the child and then making it human, that means baby isn't human until after the birth, and baby isn't alive until after the birth.
Now we know that Mary gave birth to a person, because never a time was Jesus separate from his two natures. There was never a point he was human and then another point he was divine, he was both human and divine at all times. The person of Jesus is both human and divine, Mary gave birth to Jesus te person, not just Jesus the human.
We dealt with that heresy a long time ago, look it up

So Mary is the mother of God the Son, Jesus the Christ. And yes Jesus formed in an egg, if he didn't he wouldn't be human, he would be a tumor.

Why do you expect Christ, the creator of heaven and earth, the alpha and the omega, the begining and the end, to listen to a mere vessel that He created with His own hands?  

Well when she asked for wine at the weding at Cana he did listen and did perform the miracle she wanted. ANd well I believe we're just human and I believe Jesus listens to me, sorry that you  don't believe he listens to you but he listens to me and he listens to his mother. So sorry for you, but dude I'm getting miracles off the ying yang cause he listens to me, you might want to start believing that he listens to mere humans.

And Mary was not just a mere vessel, if she was she wouldn't have been fit to carry God in her womb for nine months, I believe nothing impure can touch God, unless you're trying to say that God can dwell in sin.
God only dwells in holy places. Mary has to be holy for God to dwell in her. Not just anyone could carry the Son of God, it had to be the one "full of grace"

The bible clearly identifies the intercessor of the brethren . . . it is the LAMB of God and not Mary. This is heresy at its best, covered in the cloak of religiosity.

Um the Bible asks us to interceed for one another, but there can only be one mediator and that is Jesus the Christ and that is what the Church teaches.

Dear be careful not to deny Christ his divinity by denying his mother, heretics tried to do so early in christianity and the title of Mother of God was given to Mary to silence them.

this woman is confusion personified.

Here is the 3rd commandment - Exodus 20: 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God,

the presence of "or" in that statement clearly indicates that bowing is NOT the same as worshipping but BOTH are biblically WRONG

So then it was wrong for this to have taken place 1 Chronicles 21:19-21
19 David went up at Gad's command, given in the name of the Lord
20 While Ornan was threshing wheat, he turned around and saw the king, and his four sons who were with him, without recognizing them
21 But as David came on toward him, he looked up and saw that it was David. The he left the threshing floor and bowed down to David, his face to the ground.

So was Ornan committing idolatry there. Be careful not to stick your foot in your mouth hun. Bowing isn't wrong, bowing to worship is. If you took an image and regard it as God and then bow down to it, you are bowing down to worship it. That verse in Exodus is quite aware that you don't have to bow to worship you can also stand to worship, so when it states bow it states so in the event of worshipping and the "or to worship" was in the event of not bowing.
You don't have to bow to worship, so worshipping even without bowing is wrong if it is not the true God.
But you also don't have to worship someone when you bow as Ornan proves to us above, and many men prove when they propose to a girl or when the english greet each other.

~Lady~:

Do you really need me to start teaching you about the birds and the bees and how it is a baby is formed in the womb?
What happens when a woman conceives, does she conceive by herself? Or does something else take place, [size=18pt]I blieve naturally it takes sperm,[/size] which means that for you to say that she conceived of the Holy Spirit and she didn't have Christ in her eggs then when a woman conceives in order for her to have the baby in her eggs she must have conceived on her own?

When did God become subject to the laws of the natural?  

So when are we re gonna see the verses advocating the rosaries cos all this all yada yada is boring me.

~Lady~:

So then it was wrong for this to have taken place 1 Chronicles 21:19-21
19 David went up at Gad's command, given in the name of the Lord
20 While Ornan was threshing wheat, he turned around and saw the king, and his four sons who were with him, without recognizing them
21 But as David came on toward him, he looked up and saw that it was David. The he left the threshing floor and bowed down to David, his face to the ground.

So was Ornan committing idolatry there. Be careful not to stick your foot in your mouth hun. Bowing isn't wrong, bowing to worship is. If you took an image and regard it as God and then bow down to it, you are bowing down to worship it. That verse in Exodus is quite aware that you don't have to bow to worship you can also stand to worship, so when it states bow it states so in the event of worshipping and the "or to worship" was in the event of not bowing.
You don't have to bow to worship, so worshipping even without bowing is wrong if it is not the true God.
But you also don't have to worship someone when you bow as Ornan proves to us above, and many men prove when they propose to a girl or when the english greet each other.

My dear miss "twist the bible to conform to my own ungodly standards". The connotations of Ornan "bowing his head" and that in the 3rd commandment are completely different AND YOU KNOW IT. Stop trying to use semantics to dodge the issues.

I bow down my head to greet my father, we both know we are not doing this in veneration or in worship. When a Shango worshipper bows his head to the idol of shango, he knows EXACTLY what he is doing . . . he is not just saying good morning.

since when did we bring Christ down to our level that the Lord who even the winds and the sea obey, He whom the devils here His voice and tremble is now subject to the laws of biology? I tire for people o . . .

Well forgive me mister biologist I guess you would tell us that Jesus wasn't born through Mary's vagina because he just couldn't have been in the level of humans, I mean I really thought when he decided to become human he did come to our level, and that he felt pain just as we felt pain. I mean what was the point of coming from a woman's womb in the first place if the woman was not to take any part in it.

The Lord have mercy. Baba see these faithless generation . . . they say you had no power to take on human form except through Mary's eggs. Baba . . . i give them up to you.  

.
Let's assume You're right he could have come in the flesh without a woman, so why didn't he just drop of from the sky? Why did he have to come from a woman's womb? What's the significance of the woman's womb?
How does a baby take on human form? Does it just grow in the womb without an egg?

Na wa o. Baba . . . they even deny your Lordship . . . what else will they say? That you wouldnt have died if Joseph did not teach you carpentry?

Lolololol oh my Lord. goodness gracious are you that ignorant? do you really lack that much reasoning? aren't the one who said you have a Ph.d? and you can't reason?

Baba i know you see and hear all these but i just need to report them. They say you werent human or alive until you came out of Mary?
you who created Mary from the dust of the earth and the blast of your nostrils?

I'm really hoping that you just want to have fun and that you're not really this stupid or deceitful.

My dear don't use your usual hypocritical forcing words others didnt say into their mouths to curse me o please. Christ listens to me well because He promised to. The REAL ISSUE is whether He listens to you through His dead mother . . . His bible said no such thing.
[/quote
Um actually St. Paul tells us that even death cannot separate us from the body of Christ, and that we should all exchange gifts, and pray for one another, which means that even those who are dead that have made it to heaven can pray for us and those of us here on earth can pray for those who have not made it yet.
So you might wanna read the bible more, I believe this same St. Paul is the one that talks about the virtues that you deny.
so yeah he listens to us and yes even his mother. it's even more significant that his first act in his ministry and his first miracle was at the prompting of Mary his mother.

If God could speak through the ass of balaam why could He not dwell in the womb of Mary? Kai . . . Baba see these heretics. I tire for them.

if God could speak through the ass of balaam why didn't he just show up on earth on human form, why did he have to be born of a woman? why the woman? why is she important? i mean he can do anything so why not just bypass the woman? why not just show up randomly on earth or better yet why not make Jesus out of the dust just like Adam, he is the new Adam right?

True but He didnt say we should intercede through the dead.

Yeah um St. Paul said we should interceed for one another, you know pray for one another, and he did also say that death cannot separate us, so if we're not separated by death what stops us from praying for one another and sharing our gifts afterall we're not separated not even by death?

Haba Baba but this is too much ke. they say you are not divine without your mother? I don tire o . . . wetin them go talk again?

well do you believe you're divine? thank God I am not divine, i believe i am human, and my mother gave birth to a person with a body and soul and my body and soul are not separate. so are you saying that your body is separate from your soul? because that could only explain why you would think Mary gave birth to one nature of Jesus and not the other or that Jesus' divine nature is separate from his human nature.

When did God become subject to the laws of the natural?  

well let's see, when they scourged him at the pillar he bled, and when they nailed him to the cross he bled, and he felt pain when he carried his cross, so i believe he um felt nature and that in order to feel that he had to have come from a human who also felt nature who gave him  his flesh and blood, and in order to get that flesh and blood he had to have grown from an egg into a fetus into an infant and then into a toddler and you know the rest. so if he wasn't going through the same natural process that al humans go through when taking on the human form why did it take nine months? why not less, i mean he just happened to be in the womb. why did the womb have to grow as a natrual baby would?

So when are we re going to see the verses advocating the rosaries because all this all yada yada is boring me.

please go and learn what a rosary is first and then come back and ask this question because i believe meditating on scripture is not wrong or at least that 's what i thought we were supposed to do?
there is no scripture saying you must pray the rosary, no the rosary is not compulsory, and the rosary is made up of the scripture.
it is too much for me to type right now what scritpure makes up the rosary but i can give you a hint on the some of the events that we meditate on.
we meditate on the birth of Jesus, on his death, on his resurrection, on the descent of the spirit, on him turning water into wine on the transfiguration on mount tabor on him carrying the cross, on his baptism, and so on. so if it is wrong to meditate on those please let me know, because that's what the rosary prayer is. it is simply meditation on scripture.
now please go and learn about what the rosary is before you come here making assumptions get rid of your ignorance first

My dear miss "twist the bible to conform to my own ungodly standards". The connotations of Ornan "bowing his head" and that in the 3rd commandment are completely different AND YOU KNOW IT. Stop trying to use semantics to dodge the issues.

I bow down my head to greet my father, we both know we are not doing this in veneration or in worship. When a Shango worshipper bows his head to the idol of shango, he knows EXACTLY what he is doing . . . he is not just saying good morning.

Sir I am not the one twisting the Bible you're making a claim that isn't true and for a christian to be dishonest, oh it doesn't surprise me, you do it all the time anyway.

As for the bowing down to your father it is veneration. Veneration is nothing but honour, and when you kneel in front of your dad you do venerate him, when you bow you do venerate him, but you do not worship him. That same veneration is what is done in the Catholic church.

yup a shango worshipper bows before the thing or whatever it is in worship as its god, Catholic bow before Mary as our mother, our sister, and our friend, and we venerate her for her blessedness, because she did say that all generations will call her blessed, and the angel did hail her and did call her full of grace, and Elizabeth did call her blessed. So therefore we call her blessed. Or do yo have a problem with us calling her blessed?