Mr. Kinkey:
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Kmcutez, as much as i'll love to agree with you, the relationship between development and religion is more nuanced.

1. Religion does not cause or increase development, it is in many ways an hindrance. It is a freeing of the mind and acceptance of responsibility for oneself encouraged by clear-headed reasoning and scientific innovations that do so.

2. Some religions are more of an impedance than others. Of the Abrahamic religions, Judaism is the least impedant at the moment and Islam the most (Islam used to be better some centuries after its founding when it pioneered important innovations, but it has now taken a more fundamentalist, reductive tone). Also within Christianity, Roman Catholicism (and its allied belif systems) is more development impendant than Protestanism (thanks to its Calvinistic leanings). However pentecostalism is a bastard child of that more solid pedigree with its selfish, charlatanish tendencies.

Also a religion-culture mix like that of the Japanese is not much of an impedance as they have honor as an imporrant element of their belief system; hence the concepts of Hara-kiri and kamikaze. Yet, such system has also bred nepotism, cronyism and governmental corruption (not as much as ours though)

3. Many times religion is only a symptom masking the real problems as we see happening in Mal and Northern African nations. And in being a very virulent symptom religion usually inhibits finding a solution.

Can you explain your comment in bold because I am not in total agreement

Mr. Kinkey:


Kmcutez, as much as i'll love to agree with you, the relationship between development and religion is more nuanced.

1. Religion does not cause or increase development, it is in many ways a hindrance. It is a freeing of the mind and acceptance of responsibility for oneself encouraged by clear-headed reasoning and scientific innovations that do so.



2. Many times religion is only a symptom masking the real problems as we see happening in Mali and Northern African nations.

Mr kinkey, let us forget all this big grammar, e dey confuse me.

We all believe religion is a hindrance but If you do not remove religion, how do you begin to free that so called mind that has been shackled for development to occur, so indirectly religion will cause or increase development.

What are the real symptoms religion is masking in mali and other northern african nations.

kmcutez:

Mr kinkey, let us forget all this big grammar, e dey confuse me.

lmao

kmcutez:

Mr kinkey, let us forget all this big grammar, e dey confuse me.

We all believe religion is a hindrance but If you do not remove religion, how do you begin to free that so called mind that has been shackled for development to occur, so indirectly religion will cause or increase development.

What are the real symptoms religion is masking in mali and other northern african nations.

Exactly! Religion and blind faith is the opposite of reason and sane mind. For intelligent and positive minded people to help Africa,religion needs to go.

musKeeto:
lmao

But it's the truth na. Abi make I lie again.

Logicboy03:

Norway is actually a very atheistic antion. It has one of the highest rates of atheism in Europe

http://www.impactlab.net/2006/03/26/the-50-countries-with-the-highest-percentage-of-atheists/

hahahahahaha....I laught again. Another bogus stat from an atheist site. Why did'nt you pull stats from a neutral site, say the national website of norway or from Wikipedia even? Gobsmacked at extent people would go to confuse others.

cheleku:
hahahahahaha....I laught again. Another bogus stat from an atheist site. Why did'nt you pull stats from a neutral site, say the national website of norway or from Wikipedia even? Gobsmacked at extent people would go to confuse others.

Phil Zuckerman, an Associate Professor of Sociology at Pitzer College estimates atheism rates in Norway as ranging from 31 to 72%, based on various studies.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Norway

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Logicboy03:


Can you explain your comment in bold because I am not in total agreement

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Check out this sites, my guy (i know that wikipedia no be optimal place for sourcing data but sha):

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/has-cronyism-wrecked-japans-longterm-repair-2308084.html

http://fs1.law.keio.ac.jp/~hkatoh/CORRUPTIONINTHEECONOMICWORLDINJAPAN.htm

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kmcutez:

Mr kinkey, let us forget all this big grammar, e dey confuse me.

We all believe religion is a hindrance but If you do not remove religion, how do you begin to free that so called mind that has been shackled for development to occur, so indirectly religion will cause or increase development.

What are the real symptoms religion is masking in mali and other northern african nations.

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Kmcutez, all i mean is that despite the uselessness and evil of religion, it will not go away anytime soon. And as overpopulation, climate change and economic problems begin to increase, more people will join some religion.

But if we can enlighten people to develop their nations inspite of religion, free themselves from the stagnant fatalism religion breeds and approach a more secular interpretation of their faiths, progress will still be achieved.

Religion is a crutch, a way to understand the chaos our world is; and for a while it fully served its purpose but no more. However, in nations whose existence/standard of living is low and maybe basic (nations like Mali, regions like Northern Nigeria), religion is still very powerful. As such religion is only a symptom of the disaster their lives are -the corruption, mismanagement, natural disasters, unemployment, illiteracy are the issues that if addressed will lower (not eliminate) the power if religion.

As to my "big grammar" i wish i could help it but na so i be...

Mr. Kinkey:
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But if we can enlighten people to develop their nations inspite of religion, free themselves from the stagnant fatalism religion breeds and approach a more secular interpretation of their faiths, progress will still be achieved.

As to my "big grammar" i wish i could help it but na so i be...

Just kidding about the big grammar.

I know we cannot do away with religion, but we still have to at least manage it, or as you said teach people to approach their faith in a more secular way, so that progress can be achieved.

In a way we are both right, in that religion can stall development, but at the same time it can also increase development if we manage it or totally eliminate it, but for progress to be made, we have to manipulate it somehow.

Mr. Kinkey:


Religion is a crutch, a way to understand the chaos our world is; and for a while it fully served its purpose but no more. However, in nations whose existence/standard of living is low and maybe basic (nations like Mali, regions like Northern Nigeria), religion is still very powerful. As such religion is only a symptom of the disaster their lives are -the corruption, mismanagement, natural disasters, unemployment, illiteracy are the issues that if addressed will lower (not eliminate) the power if religion.

True talk, but at the same time religion can bring about complacency in the state of affairs of a nation, for example, some religious folk will not care about fighting corruption, mismanagement etc but will stay content with the hope that their dwelling is not of this earth but of heaven. These are mostly educated folks and if we have such a large number of such in a nation, how can the nation move forward, so again, we must manage religion for the nation to move forward.

In this case, we are both kind of right again. I think development depends on a lot of factors and will be different from country to country.

kmcutez:

True talk, but at the same time religion can bring about complacency in the state of affairs of a nation, for example, some religious folk will not care about fighting corruption, mismanagement etc but will stay content with the hope that their dwelling is not of this earth but of heaven. These are mostly educated folks and if we have such a large number of such in a nation, how can the nation move forward, so again, we must manage religion for the nation to move forward.

In this case, we are both kind of right again. I think development depends on a lot of factors and will be different from country to country.

I agree

kmcutez:

By arguing with someone who is trying to disprove the existence of God scientifically, automatically you are trying to prove the existence of God scientifically.

On the contray.....I'm trying to prevent people backing up their own personal opinion with pseudo-science. I argue scientifical,provide jorunals with dates of publication not on hearsay

chukkynwob:

On the contray.....I'm trying to prevent people backing up their own personal opinion with pseudo-science. I argue scientifical,provide jorunals with dates of publication not on hearsay

Ok, but why do you think God exists?

ooman:

You want me to accept your God as a loving creating by threatening me with the civilizations he DESTROYED GRUESOMELY in history.

Even if heaven and hell exist, I choose to go with the devil. I cannot spend eternity with your cruel evil God. The Devil, Great Lucifer will provide for me in hell. What more, we will attack God again and we will overthrow God, i wonder what you will be saying then. THE DEVIL IS BETTER THAN GOD A MILLION TIMES OVER. HE IS A GREAT WARRIOR. ALL PRAISE TO THE DEVIL AKA LUCIFER. LUCIFER IS GREAT

It is your right to choose,hehehehehehe so please dont back it up with theories you know next to nothing about. Just say 'I hate God' becos I choose so

The problems with Nigeria is hydra-headed and blaming it on religion is just plain ignorance. Ooman is you really love africa and Nigeria,why can't you come back? Setup a foundation, do something really useful to enhance Nigeria's human capital that just bashing hatefully on your keys just to insult christaians.
I know really respectful atheists that refrain from personal attacks in discussions and I suggest you tow that line for civility sake

kmcutez:

Ok, but why do you think God exists?

I believe I told you before that I yes BLINDLY FOOLISHLY believe in God without empirical proof believe that God exists,but you trying to use evolution to disusade me when the orignal life form,that simple cell that according to Darwin,evolved into complex life forms has not been ascertained. This will only leave us to continue an arguement that has gone on for years.like I said I only went into this arguement when ooman said science has proved the origin of live forms. Many scientists are still working on the theories of evolution and it has a lot of inconclusive,and incoherent pieces. So until it goes from theories of evolution to the laws of evolution my dear let's agree to disagree respectfully.

kmcutez:

True talk, but at the same time religion can bring about complacency in the state of affairs of a nation, for example, some religious folk will not care about fighting corruption, mismanagement etc but will stay content with the hope that their dwelling is not of this earth but of heaven. These are mostly educated folks and if we have such a large number of such in a nation, how can the nation move forward, so again, we must manage religion for the nation to move forward.

In this case, we are both kind of right again. I think development depends on a lot of factors and will be different from country to country.

It is easier to sit behind your keyboard, and be an activist. I sincerely do not care about the religious affiliation of any activist against the corruption,nepotism and injustices that reign supreme in Nigeria. So why don't you come back to Nigeria and start making a change,you'll be at surprised at the number of people that will actually support your cause. BE THE CHANGE, bashing religion on nairaland is just so infinitisimal.like it or not the racism against any black man, atheist or a theist in the US/UK,or europe is still significant.

chukkynwob:

I believe I told you before that I yes BLINDLY FOOLISHLY believe in God without empirical proof believe that God exists,but you trying to use evolution to disusade me when the orignal life form,that simple cell that according to Darwin,evolved into complex life forms has not been ascertained. This will only leave us to continue an arguement that has gone on for years.like I said I only went into this arguement when ooman said science has proved the origin of live forms. Many scientists are still working on the theories of evolution and it has a lot of inconclusive,and incoherent pieces. So until it goes from theories of evolution to the laws of evolution my dear let's agree to disagree respectfully.

Ok.

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chukkynwob:

I believe I told you before that I yes BLINDLY FOOLISHLY believe in God without empirical proof believe that God exists,but you trying to use evolution to disusade me when the orignal life form,that simple cell that according to Darwin,evolved into complex life forms has not been ascertained. This will only leave us to continue an arguement that has gone on for years.like I said I only went into this arguement when ooman said science has proved the origin of live forms. Many scientists are still working on the theories of evolution and it has a lot of inconclusive,and incoherent pieces. So until it goes from theories of evolution to the laws of evolution my dear let's agree to disagree respectfully.

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Ogbeni, you have in your own words destroyed your arguments. You have once and for all stated why religion is absolute nansense. You say religion is blind, i say science sees! You say Science is inconclusive, i say Religion is a non-starter.

In no other area of an average sane man's life does he display the idiocy he reserves for religion. If you live your life blind like so, u no no say u go don fall for ditch since?!

You dey walk blind with religion, science say make e gif u lyt for way, u refuse - what sensible man does that, refuse much needed help?

Abeg, go throway that religion into the dark ages wey e belong and begin to enjoy the full freedom of enlightenment!

Kapisch?

I have learned to let the religious die in their foolishness

Mr. Kinkey:
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Ogbeni, you have in your own words destroyed your arguments. You have once and for all stated why religion is absolute nansense. You say religion is blind, i say science sees! You say Science is inconclusive, i say Religion is a non-starter.

In no other area of an average sane man's life does he display the idiocy he reserves for religion. If you live your life blind like so, u no no say u go don fall for ditch since?!

You dey walk blind with religion, science say make e gif u lyt for way, u refuse - what sensible man does that, refuse much needed help?

Abeg, go throway that religion into the dark ages wey e belong and begin to enjoy the full freedom of enlightenment!

Kapisch?

I have said it a thousand times, do not hide under science.....Evolution — meaning that such diverse creatures as whales, worms, hummingbirds, hadrosaurs, platypuses and presidents have evolved from the same first life-form — is a belief system. It certainly has not been proved to be a scientific fact.

chukkynwob:

I have said it a thousand times, do not hide under science.....Evolution — meaning that such diverse creatures as whales, worms, hummingbirds, hadrosaurs, platypuses and presidents have evolved from the same first life-form — is a belief system. It certainly has not been proved to be a scientific fact.

You must be very ignorant to claim that evolution is a belief.


All the genetic evidence that points to common descent nko?

No evidence for evolution? descent by modification? what about this similarities?

I know some people can say it is a work of design, but before you spit that out, pls tell me why a God would want to make a monkey look like his own children created in his image, except God himself looks like a monkey.

Evolution say we are family, and this is confirmed by the fact that we share genes, more than 99%.

After reading the God Virus, a book founded on the ideas of Richard Darwkins... I cant help but conclude that Atheism is also a virus that seriously want to take the place of the various religions around the world and i think It might win because it has the most powerful tool of the modern age on its side (SCIENCE)...........I just wish some1 with an objective mind can read that book and use the Virus model to dissect Atheism as preached by the Science community........
I think Both Religion and Atheism are after the same Goal to get as many converts to their side as possible

chukkynwob:

I believe I told you before that I yes BLINDLY FOOLISHLY believe in God without empirical proof believe that God exists,but you trying to use evolution to disusade me when the orignal life form,that simple cell that according to Darwin,evolved into complex life forms has not been ascertained. This will only leave us to continue an arguement that has gone on for years.like I said I only went into this arguement when ooman said science has proved the origin of live forms. Many scientists are still working on the theories of evolution and it has a lot of inconclusive,and incoherent pieces. So until it goes from theories of evolution to the laws of evolution my dear let's agree to disagree respectfully.

I am not bothered by what you FOOLISHLY and BLINDLY wish to believe, what bothers me is the false representation of science and the mis interpretation of the meaning of hypothesis, theory and laws as you have done here.

I am appalled that a so-called qualified electrical engineer cannot differentiate between an hypothesis, theory and law in science and equate a well established theory to an hypothesis. Anyway i should not be surprised, nigerian universities are known for producing world renown pastors than world renown scientists.

In science there is nothing like absolute truth or absolute proofs, what you have is explanations that best describes AVAILABLE DATA and observation, an hypothesis is propounded to best explain the observation, the hypothesis is then tested again and again by other experts in the field and if it satisfied the peer review mechanism it is accepted as theory, it can be further described as a law if the theory can be explained in very simple terms or mathematical models. (gosh! We learnt this in form 3 basic science)
In science there is often very little difference between a law and a theory. And because a theory is described as a law does not mean it cannot be discarded once it fails to predict observed data. A vary good example are newton's laws which is discarded under relativistic conditions.

Furthermore, because we still call the germ theory, a theory does not make it false or suspect and so resort back to spirits as being the cause of leprosy.

The theory of evolution is a well established and accepted theory of science. It has stood for over 150 years, it is been confirmed by other fields of science like molecular biology, genetics, paleontology and other related fields. If you have an alternative theory or links to an alternative theory on the origin and diversity of species on earth, then lets have it.

The beginning of life, which is how inorganic elements and compounds formed the first organic compound is not included in the theory of evolution, it is a different field called abiogenesis, and there are a few hypothesis out there with the predominant one being the "the organic soup" hypothesis.

So i view it as harakiri for a "scientist" to say that because something is described as a scientific theory and not a law makes it inconclusive and unacceptable.

Why don't you all just agree to disagree. There is a common need between Religion and Science, that none of the commentators on this thread seem to realize, and that need is a search for Truth. The starting points of both, however differ, whilst at the same time both claim to be able to achieve and define the mysteries of 'everything'.

The starting point of any Religion is 'faith', which by its very definition is antithetical to the starting point of Science. When you realize this, you realize that this exercise is pointless. Science will posit a theory, and for better or worse will work towards proving or disproving that theory, Religion accepts on 'faith', what science says must be proven, so why would you waste your time on this.

I am more of the opinion that there is a larger question being asked by the Thread itself, that we can concern ourselves with.

scarred: Why don't you all just agree to disagree. There is a common need between Religion and Science, that none of the commentators on this thread seem to realize, and that need is a search for Truth. The starting points of both, however differ, whilst at the same time both claim to be able to achieve and define the mysteries of 'everything'.

The starting point of any Religion is 'faith', which by its very definition is antithetical to the starting point of Science. When you realize this, you realize that this exercise is pointless. Science will posit a theory, and for better or worse will work towards proving or disproving that theory, Religion accepts on 'faith', what science says must be proven, so why would you waste your time on this.

I am more of the opinion that there is a larger question being asked by the Thread itself, that we can concern ourselves with.

Dont be a smart azz.


What is this larger question?

scarred: Why don't you all just agree to disagree. There is a common need between Religion and Science, that none of the commentators on this thread seem to realize, and that need is a search for Truth. The starting points of both, however differ, whilst at the same time both claim to be able to achieve and define the mysteries of 'everything'.

The starting point of any Religion is 'faith', which by its very definition is antithetical to the starting point of Science. When you realize this, you realize that this exercise is pointless. Science will posit a theory, and for better or worse will work towards proving or disproving that theory, Religion accepts on 'faith', what science says must be proven, so why would you waste your time on this.

I am more of the opinion that there is a larger question being asked by the Thread itself, that we can concern ourselves with.

Religion never searches for truth, it believes its the truth

chukkynwob:

So why don't you come back to Nigeria and start making a change

I live in nigeria.

ooman:

Religion never searches for truth, it believes its the truth

It is a search...'be ye transformed by the renewing of your minds...'