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tpia:


Gay is an American term which has gotten into the general lingo in other places outside the US. It doesnt have to be perjorative- it depends on the context in which you view it and what your reaction is.

My reason for asking is because you said you found nowhere in the bible that condemns homosexuality. I had wanted to ask if you're a member of the homosexual church in Nigeria which makes the news every now and then, until I remembered that you seem to be a muslim.

may I ask what your basis is for ignoring the blatantly obvious references to homosexuality in the bible, along with the clearly apparent allusions to the fact that its considered to be against nature?

I'm not debating the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality here- I'm just interested in knowing why you consider what you claim to have read, invisible.

Thank you for your response. I respond below, and attempt to be as clear as possible; this is not a condescension to you; your post above tells you're careful in presenting your thoughts. Of course, we may disagree, but we could hopefully find a commong ground.

We need to separate being gay or being homosexual from homosexual sex. This difference becomes clear when you consider what it means to be heterosexual.

Let's take a man who's strictly heterosexual. He is attracted to women. He could only have sexual intercourse with women, but he necessarily does not have to. In this latter case, he'D be a heterosexual man who abstains from heterosexual sex. He's heterosexual, but his life is not all about the sex.

The same is true for a strictly homosexual man; he is attracted to men. He could only have sex with other men, but he necessarily does not have to. In this latter case, he'D be a homosexual man who abstains from homosexual sex. He's attracted to men, but he's not about the sex.

Thus, the difference exists between the homosexual state, and the practice of homosexual sex. The bible is specific in condenming homosexual sex, but not the state of being homosexual. The South-African Archbishop emeritus, Desmond Tutu is well known for advising homosexual priests to abstain.

This difference is crucial, particularly because there are homosexual Christian men who refuse act on their impulses and not sleep with other men. Will God condemn these Christians who refuse this sort of intercourse? And, do we do them justice? The bible is silent about homosexual men who don't sleep with other men; what the bible condemns specifically, is homosexual sex.

So the title of this thread, 'Fornication or Homosexuality: Which is a greater Sin?' proceeds from a lack of knowledge because homosexuality by itself is not a sin anymore than heterosexuality by itself is a sin; it's like comparing rotten apples and oranges. Fornication is illegal sexual intercourse; homosexuality isn't even about intercouse, just as heterosexuality isn't about intercourse.

Do you think we could be on the same page now? Or, do we explore this further? There has been an important issue raised about homosexuality in nature.
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~Lady~:

The purpose of sex is procreation. However it is still pleasurable.

Note: You can get the same pleasure from having sex with a goat, or other animals, is that natural?

MouthAction is condemned by the Church, so is anal sex (ewww)

pre-intimacy leads to sex which is for procreation.

Ok, so if people can just do it for pleasure, why aren't they pleasuring themselves with animals? They can get the same feeling. Or are you advocating that humans have sex with animals too?

So we should have sex with animals too?

You see what I mean, see what I'm talking about? People misinterpret the Bible and say it supports their view.
The Bible isn't contradicting itself, it's the so-called people that read it.

Lets stick to the first discourse first which is whether homosexuality occurs naturally if we take on all the issues at once we would derail ourselves, I like doing things in a step by step fashion for example I asked

Can someone give me a proof and evidence beyond reasonable doubt that homosexuality is not natural?

you replied

Nature is designed to procreate, homosexuals can't procreate

I said fine I agree but is

sex only for procreation? is it not for pleasure too, then I went ahead and asked about MouthAction because that is not for recreation so how about kissing, each time you kiss are you trying to have kids. I also went ahead to point out to you that it abounds in the animal kingdom to prove my point that it occurs naturally and it is not as a result of man's twisted mind alone, if it exists among the animals surely it is a naturally occurring phenomenon that's what I am trying to establish first let us agree on that then we can go on to analyze the different pleasures and it certainly has not reached the time for bestiality( YUCk!)

So my dear ~Lady~ we are at the junction that says
1. does it occur naturally or not
2. Is pleasure a component of sex? ( note that this second part is in your response to procreation)

Nimshi:

Okay, let me respond to you.

We need to separate being gay or being homosexual from homosexual sex. This difference becomes clear when you consider what it means to be heterosexual.

Let's take a man who's strictly heterosexual. He is attracted to women. He could only have sexual intercourse with women, but he necessarily does not have to. In this latter case, he'D be a heterosexual man who abstains from heterosexual sex. He's heterosexual, but his life is not all about the sex.

The same is true for a strictly homosexual man; he is attracted to men. He could only have sex with other men, but he necessarily does not have to. In this latter case, he'D be a homosexual man who abstains from homosexual sex. He's attracted to men, but he's not about the sex.

Thus, the difference exists between the homosexual state, and the practice of homosexual sex. The bible is specific in condenming homosexual sex, but not the state of being homosexual. The South-African Archbishop emeritus, Desmond Tutu is well known for advising homosexual priests to abstain.

This difference is crucial, particularly because there are homosexual Christian men who refuse act on their impulses and not sleep with other men. Will God condemn these Christians who refuse this sort of intercourse? And, do we do them justice? The bible is silent about homosexual men who don't sleep with other men; what the bible condemns specifically, is homosexual sex.

So the title of this thread, 'Fornication or Homosexuality: Which is a greater Sin?' proceeds from a lack of knowledge because homosexuality by itself is not a sin anymore than heterosexuality by itself is a sin; it's like comparing rotten apples and oranges. Fornication is illegal sexual intercourse; homosexuality isn't even about intercouse, just as heterosexuality isn't about intercourse.

Do you think we could be on the same page now? Or, do we explore this further? There has been an important issue raised about homosexuality in nature.
.

Seriously where do you stand bro did you study religion? I have seen you quoting both the bible and the qua ran wats up with you

Chrisbenogor:



Seriously where do you stand bro did you study religion? I have seen you on both threads

I see the animated clap. . . And then the question. . .

Is this a trick question , . . .
.

..

Nimshi:

I see the animated clap. . . And then the question. . .

Is this a trick question ,   . . .
.

there are some people who I really respect on this religion board from christian to atheist, to adherents of the grail message and so on, still looking for a level headed and rational muslim though, used to have some as friends but we sorta lost touch. From the number of posts you are either not so frequent a poster or you are new would just like to know where you stand as per religious issues you know the whole God yada yada yada,

Not a trick question at all I don't attack anyone or their beliefs just analyze issues.

tpia:

I have to answer you by asking another question:

what do you think about someone who has the desire to murder another person but abstains from doing so. Is this person the same as someone else who actually carries out an act of murder.

how about is there any law that punishes who thinks of murder?

.

tpia:

I have to answer you by asking another question:

what do you think about someone who has the desire to murder another person but abstains from doing so. Is this person the same as someone else who actually carries out an act of murder.

That's not very fair (don't forget to notice the smiley, ). I say it is not fair because the one is different from the other. Perhaps, we will disagree on your new question. But there was an existing request about my response to your comment on homosexuality. I'D like to know if there're further grounds to be covered on that. Why? Because the difference in the last post is fundamental; to miss it is to miss almost everything.

In any case, Chrisbenogor has asked a relevant question to help with yours; you see how the questions can multiply?
.

Chrisbenogor:

there are some people who I really respect on this religion board from christian to atheist, to adherents of the grail message and so on, still looking for a level headed and rational muslim though, used to have some as friends but we sorta lost touch. From the number of posts you are either not so frequent a poster or you are new would just like to know where you stand as per religious issues you know the whole God yada yada yada,

Not a trick question at all I don't attack anyone or their beliefs just analyze issues.

It is delightful to hear that you're able to accommodate opinions from other persuasions without attacking the person; I accept this also. Ideas can be analyzed and deconstructed, so can doctrine; it is important to rub minds; people should be off-limits (I have myself been guilty but have apologised when called out). I've been here a short while, but I'm new to the Religion section; the Nigerian Stock Market is slumbering; appears to be on auto pilot these days (of course, elsewhere, things are worse), so I've been exploring other sections of this board and have stumbled on interesting discussions.

I'll address religious issues and I hope we could discuss things; I hope to learn some (I have in the short time I started to post in the Religion section); but I have declined to state my persuasion. The poster tpia was quite careful in noting this; such attention is appreciated. I don't think I could disagree much with your assessment of (many of) the Muslims who choose to post on this board; but I don't mean that in a bad way. There's been sme vitriol one's way there: from subtle/oblique references to rather harsh denunciations. Many times, these happen because we limit ourselves and are stubborn in a way that's unhelpful to discussion,  Ok; I'm going on too long, so I'll stop now,

But nice to meet you anyway.
.

Nimshi:

It is delightful to hear that you're able to accommodate opinions from other persuasions without attacking the person; I accept this also. Ideas can be analyzed and deconstructed, so can doctrine; it is important to rub minds; people should be off-limits (I have myself been guilty but have apologised when called out). I've been here a short while, but I'm new to the Religion section; the Nigerian Stock Market is slumbering; appears to be on auto pilot these days (of course, elsewhere, things are worse), so I've been exploring other sections of this board and have stumbled on interesting discussions.

I'll address religious issues and I hope we could discuss things; I hope to learn some (I have in the short time I started to post in the Religion section); but I have declined to state my persuasion. The poster tpia was quite careful in noting this; such attention is appreciated. I don't think I could disagree much with your assessment of (many of) the Muslims who choose to post on this board; but I don't mean that in a bad way. There's been sme vitriol one's way there: from subtle/oblique references to rather harsh denunciations. Many times, these happen because we limit ourselves and are stubborn in a way that's unhelpful to discussion,  Ok; I'm going on too long, so I'll stop now,

But nice to meet you anyway.
.

Ok bro I have got a hunch about what you believe though I will wait to see how it plays out
Cheers.

Chrisbenogor:

Ok bro I have got a hunch about what you believe though I will wait to see how it plays out
Cheers.

I'd give more than a penny for your hunch . . .

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1. does it occur naturally or not

Among humans absolutely not.

What I was getting at is that it really is for procreation, well at lest among humans, I don't know how animals think.
If the purpose of sex was pleasure, then one can also get the same pleasure from animals. I was trying to make a case that it isn't mostly for pleasure.

Now if you want to be specific with your question as to is it natural for humans who have reasoning capabilities, then it is not.
However, if it is for animals, which are those without reasoning capabilities, then no. They lack rationality. I would like to think that is a major difference between us., (well some of us anyway)

2. Is pleasure a component of sex? ( note that this second part is in your response to procreation)

Mostly it is, with the exception of rape and those who just lay there.


I will stay away from Nimshi on this thread, after reading his post all I could do is

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Seun, how can u pose such a question, we all know sin is sin. this wld cause me 2 raise an eyebrow coz u might have done one of the two and u're tryin 2 relieve urself of guilt. sorry but if u're sleeping wit a man u're fornicating and with a woman well u're still fornicationg. so i'd say one thing SEUN stop fornicating

It's not all that difficult to follow.

The last thing was for you to read my response and confirm if we're yet on the same page or not, and possibly have ground to explore.

I made the conscious decision to make that submission as simple and as clear as possible. Re-read it and redirect if there's anything unclear.

Chrisbenogor has done the good deed of rendering some parts of that post in bold; I'd think those parts 're helpful.
.

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tpia:

can you reconcile your definition of covert and overt homosexuality (for want of a better word), with what you say you don't see about the bible's stand on the homosexual lifestyle.

Let me let you help me with this:

1) Is there overt and covert [b]hetero[/b]sexuality? (I understand that you're using improvised terms, but that's no problem for me, and us in this discussion. If you're able to define covert and overt [b]hetero[/b]sexuality, then I should be able to define overt and covert [b]homo[/b]sexuality).

2) You can also help me here by defining what you mean by "homosexual lifestyle". If you do, then I promise to clearly express my understanding of the bible's teaching on it.

.

tpia:

Anyway, am out. I lost my train of thought momentarily.

Redirect is already provided. It'll be there anytime you return.

If Chris is the one speaking for you then there's no point belaboring the question. I wanted your own views, not his.

I have stated my views; they're up there in full form, and unedited. You're at liberty to ignore any posts on these boards, including mine; you also have the liberty to examine posts you want to focus on.
.

@lady
Good morning, one of the reasons I jumped back from the whole religious scenery is that it never gives one a clear mind to actually troubleshoot issues hence the church apologies some times.
Now lets examine your first answer, you said among human beings it is not natural and I have to call you out on that. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation and there has been a huge debate on the nature or nurture concept, but the honest truth is that no body has been able either way totally prove that it is one of both. At this point I would call your mind to the medical condition known as transgender, even up to this day that medicine has been able to explain it, there are still many people who think that those people are doing the wrong thing by the bible.
Its so difficult to explain psychological things like this, so how about something more physical, who are shemales supposed to have sex with? At least that is physical enough for us to see or do they get a free get out of jail card to choose?
As for the second answer great that you agree thats what I wanted to point out not only recreation but pleasure too.
So in summary which goes back to my earlier question
1 Is there proof beyond reasonable doubt that this sexual orientation does not occur naturally.

none

Another Why this continues to go on.

HOW in this WORLD CAN HOMOSEXUALITY BE NORMAL.

Everything kicks against it except sin.

Still, There is no greater sin

and it is apparent that the homosexuals cannot but be fornicating constantly

cos it is impossible for Homosexuals to be Married.

At this point I would call your mind to the medical condition known as transgender, even up to this day that medicine has been able to explain it, there are still many people who think that those people are doing the wrong thing by the bible

Whoa first of all transgender is a medical condition? Do they die if they don't change their sex? Will they be unhealthy, if they do not change their sex?

Where is the line going to be drawn? When people start sleeping with animals, or when they decide they want to be "transspeciesed" into a goat so they can have sex with the billy goat they've fallen in love with?

Seriously, when will the line be drawn?

What next? I want two heads, so give it to me and call it a medical condition?

Its so difficult to explain psychological things like this, so how about something more physical, who are shemales supposed to have sex with? At least that is physical enough for us to see or do they get a free get out of jail card to choose?

First of all psychological things like this are very easy for me, it is simple idiotic (for lack of a better word). What will be next, give me two heads or I won't be able to live with myself, I wil be traumatized? Or is it make me a goat so that I can be with the one I love or I will be traumatized?
Anyone can be traumatized for anything, when is it going to be called insanity and treated as such, people need to be corrected. Sorry but I absolutely cannot agree with it, and I am looking outside of religion on this particular one.
Are we going to start making humans animals so they can mate with them, and then after that will it be plants, I mean seriously when will the insanity stop. Should we allow them to carry out such acts because they feel traumatized. People are confused and we need to stop giving them an easy way out.

The parents decide at birth.

As for the second answer great that you agree thats what I wanted to point out not only recreation but pleasure too.
So in summary which goes back to my earlier question
1 Is there proof beyond reasonable doubt that this sexual orientation does not occur naturally

First of all it's procreation and not recreation.
Second, you do not agree with me, it is not for pleasure alone. There is always the possibility of pregnancy, with or without contraception. As stated it is a component, as in a part of. However not the main purpose.
For example, I don't know if this is the best example but I'll try. The components of a car are tires, engine , and more, however these cannot be on their own. The car also cannot be on its own, for the car to run every component must be there and in order, so it cannot do without. So is the same with sex. It's main purpose is for procreation, it is designed that way, however a component of it is pleasure. It just happens to be there, but that doesn't mean that its main purpose is pleasure. They are not co-main purposes, there is only one.
Even if a couple engages in sex just for the pleasure, there is always the possibility of pregnancy. It is mainly the end result.\
The problem is that society has taken it to a different level, giving sex the purpose of pleasure and then maybe procreation. It is designed the other way around.

Now the reason why I asked about sleeping with animals is that if sex is for pleasure, then that same pleasure can be gotten from an animal, so why not allow everyone to hump an animal?

~Lady~:

Whoa first of all transgender is a medical condition? Do they die if they don't change their sex? Will they be unhealthy, if they do not change their sex?

My point exactly from the beginning, ~lady~ I know you are disgusted by this, sometimes I am, but we have to put on our face masks and tackle the real issues even if it stinks,do you know how it feels to feel like a man inside? before you ask those questions, they might not die as a direct result but they might get really depressed and die inside everyday they wake up, but again I will steer you back to the analysis at hand.

Is there proof beyond reasonable doubt that being homosexual is just people who want to misbehave?

The rest really lies fundamentally on this question, I know humans take it to the extreme sometimes and I have seen some homosexuals who I think are just playing but I have talked to many others that come across as genuine so before we get to animal humping back to the question which I will repeat again


Is there proof beyond reasonable doubt that being homosexual is not natural?

Gamine:

HOW in this WORLD CAN HOMOSEXUALITY BE NORMAL

So, how do you define "normal"?

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Both of them, none is greater than the other.

Both of them, none is greater than the other.

@Nimshi.

Normal is what God created something to be.

Abuse occurs when there is no understanding

Gamine:

@Nimshi.

Normal is what God created something to be.

Abuse occurs when there is no understanding

Ok, let me then ask you one question:

Assume, for the sake of discussion, that God created homosexual rams (yes, 'ram', the animal).

Would that then be "normal" as you defined it above?

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Homosexuals rams.
[i]

Are you saying there would also be Straight rams??

if you are, then my answer would be different

Knowing that God dosnt create things without a purpose

id say, it would be normal.

Gamine:

Homosexuals rams.
[i]

Are you saying there would also be Straight rams??

if you are, then my answer would be different

Knowing that God dosnt create things without a purpose

id say, it would be normal.

Your response is appreciated.

Aren't all rams supposed to be "straight"? 

Now, what about this:
1) what if you're to find homosexual behaviour in significant quatities among other non-human mammals, birds, insects, fishes? Would you also consider that "normal"?
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