Frank4YAHWEH:

I rely on English translations since this is the language that I speak. I have never suggested that I know Hebrew or Greek fluently and I do not believe that one does to understand Scripture. When I study Scrtipture I compare the diverse translation, consult the footnotes and give reference to the Greek and Hebrew Lexicons for definition. Your major perversion of Scripture is in that many times you state that the Scriptues say this and that, when in fact what you say they say is never found said in ANY Scripture translation. I believe that Yahshua did not pre-exist his birth for the simple fact that Scripture nowhere says that he did. In fact, Yahshua had to be born (come into being) as a man and be like us in every way. It only stands to reason in accordance with this Scriptural fact that since we did not pre-exist our birth, Yahshua also did not pre-exist his birth, since he had to be like us in every way. He was different in that he obeyed his and our FATHER Yahweh's commandment and in turn for doing so was without sin. We are in turn to follow in his example in being perfect as his and our Heavenly Father and Creator in Heaven is perfect. Since he had to be made like us in every way, he also was not born of a "virgin."

TABLE TURN!: You are arguing that "Christ coming from heaven is literal because you believe He did pre-exist His birth and that Christ did pre-exist His birth because you believe that the passages that say He came down from Heaven are literal". That's fallacious reasoning my friend.

On some occasions, even his disciples did not understand his parables, and asked him to explain (Mt. 13:36; Mark 8:14-17).

Yahshua is not LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word. Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being that pre-existed with Him in the beginning. There is no such teaching in Scripture that the word seen the Father. Father Yahweh's word is simply that, Father Yahweh's word. Yahshua is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. He was not a spokesman of Yahweh's word until long after his birth. Before Yahshua came into existence (was born) the prophets of old were the spokesmen of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word. This fact is also make quite clear in Hebrews 1:1-2.

WHO IS THE WORD?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/757140248/who-is-the-word

Mee234:
If u don't understand those languages but English, hw do u come about the your plenty story and explanation?

Frank4YAHWEH:

Those languages have been translated into English by those who have knowledge of the truth and I have been taught by those who have knowledge of the truth. I also read and study Scripture (2 Timoty 2:15) on a daily basis (Acts 17:11) and I "Prove all things; hold fast that which is right." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) as clearly instructed in Scripture. One must be in obedience to Father Yahweh's instruction [torah, law] to understand it.

Question what did Jesus Christ become after forfeiting the form of God according to Philippians 2?

Mee234:
He do u know those people whom u claim to know the truth are not conning you. There is nothing in the scriptures to suggest that marry was not a virgin

Frank4YAHWEH:

It is FATHER Yahweh's inspired prophetic word that suggest that the Messiah the SON of Yahweh was not born of a "virgin", since it prophesied that he would be a desendant and of the seed of Dawid:

frosbel:

difficult to reconcile your position to Psalm 2:7 , John 1:18 , John 3:16 , John 6:40 , Matthew 1:18 , Luke 1:35.

benalvino: Why are you people still here discussing this? i left because the owner of this thread doesn't even discuss what lands him to his understanding... instead they turn it to another trinity argument...

I ask ijawkid to help his entourage and tell him that angel michael AKA Jesus the man existed before mary conceive him... he didn't do that instead attack the trinity again... they all have this issues that the bible teaches Jesus is God...

Question is... why is it that the father and Jesus share same spirit? Why is the holy spirit the spirit of christ at same time the spirit of the father?

@frosbel you can change the title now to any of your choice and make sure you make it related with the issues you have with Jesus being God... because as of this moment everyone is way out of topic.

@ijawkid i know you asked me once to stop quoting Philippians because it is a big problem for you... see another one.

2 Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
1 timothy 3:16
These things write I to you, hoping to come to you shortly: 15But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

just like you like the verse that says the father is the Only One God and yet reject that Jesus is the only One lord is what baffles me. yet the father is Lord and Jesus is Lord as the father is the One God same with Jesus.

Jesus is the God over all include all of you here... if you like say the bible lied and follow what you see in the magazine... like how you believe Jesus body was dispose off by God and Jesus lied to the disciples that he is not a spirit. and don't bring that angels materialize talk because all the angels that did that you know where they are right now...
2 Peter 1:1 … through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
Romans 9:5 the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!
Titus 2:13 the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

now ijawkid hold firm to the fact that Michael did only what Jesus can do... to cast out Satan and settled that Jesus is an angel before he came to earth... he agreed God created him first... yet when Desika present him that Jesus can do only what is exclusive to God alone... to Create he says its a lie that Jesus was given the ability to create.

same ijawkid will tell you that Jesus was the only thing God created with his own hand that Jesus did all other things... he knows that there is someone Who has no beginning nor end of time like Jesus as it is in the bible "Melchizedek" which is indeed Jesus Christ or either a mysterious person no one have clue about. Now how can there be someone who was not created but Jesus was created and yet that person is not the father?

all scriptures points that Melchizedek is indeed Jesus if not there he may be the father? He has no beginning of time nor end... a mare man can not be this and be the King of peace. and bible states that not a single thing come into existence without Jesus... so Jesus didn't come into existence without him self. this is the problem he has never addressed...

Isaiah 54:5
5For your Maker is your husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and your Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah chapter 61:10 says, “I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels”. And Isaiah chapter 62:5, “For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.”

to conclude: they are all the same God.they are not 3 Gods in 1 as the frosbel and ijawkid says, which is a absolutely different frome what we believe and this is how...It was explained to me as The Father is God above us(basically in the old testament)... God with us(of course Jesus Christ) the gospels,to reconcile us back into a relationship with God that sin took away....and God in us the work of the Holy spirit(new testament) we are temples of the holy spirit 1 cor 3:16,. So to sum it up There is only one God, not 2 Gods as you believe a greater God and a lesser God, but 1 which is biblical Malachi 2:10" has not one God created us"......

Frank4YAHWEH:

It is FATHER Yahweh's inspired prophetic word that suggest that the Messiah the SON of Yahweh was not born of a "virgin", since it prophesied that he would be a desendant and of the seed of Dawid:

* The Fruit of His Loins, According to the Flesh

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that Yahweh had sworn with an oath to him, that of * the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Messiah to sit on his throne; (Acts 2:30).

Kepha quoted from the following:

‘Yahweh declares to you that Yahweh Himself will establish a house for you: When your time is over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever’ (2 Samuyl 7:8-16).

This clearly contemplates this Dawidic heir is of the "flesh and blood" of Dawid. See also similar Dawidic-lineage prophecies for Messiah in Isayah 11:1-2 and Yeremyah 23:6.

Shaul too understood Yahshua was born of the flesh of Dawid:

Yahshua the Messiah our Master ... was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh;.... (Romans 1:3-4.)

Yahshua the Messiah of the seed of Dawid ...[2 Timothy 2:8].

Of this man’s [i.e., Dawid’s] seed has Yahweh, according to his prophets, raised unto Ysryl a redeemer, Yahshua. (Acts 13:23).

Yahshua being of the seed of Dawid or of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh as prophsied in Scripture can not be born of a "virgin". I choose to believe *THE PROPHETIC WORD of Father Yahweh that Yahshua, his disciples, and the Apostles lived by rather than the LATER TRANSLATIONS that erroneously translate Yahshua as being born of a "virgin."

Frank4YAHWEH:

I will proclaim Yahweh's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father (Psalm 2:7).

This is prophetic of when Yahshua would become Father Yahweh's son. Note that there was a time when Yahshua became His son. This tells me that there was a time that he was not His son.

No man has seen Yahweh at any time; the only begotten son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him (Yahchanan [John] 1:18).

Note the Trinitarian bias in the following transaltion of this verse:

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. - New International Version (©2011)

And people try to tell me that there is no bias in translation! Poppycock!

For Yahweh so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (Yahchanan [John] 3:16).

And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone who sees the son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day (Yahchanan [John] 6:40).

Most of the Scripture passages that you have presented simply make it known that Yahshua is Father Yahweh's only begotten son. I do not deny this. We also can become begotten sons (daughters, children) of Father Yahweh, but this does not have anything to do with our pre-existing our birth or being born of a "virgin" just as it does not have anything to do with Yahshua pre-existing his birth and being born of a "virgin." What it is that I deny is that he pre-existed his birth and that he was born of a "virgin", not that he was Father Yahweh's only begotten son. He was the only begotten at that time, sin he is the first fruit of the "first fruits" of many begotten ["born again"] sons (daughters, children) As I had stated previously, I do not believe the accounts of Matthew and Luke as they have been translated and I prefer what is prophesied in Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word over the accounts of Matthew and Luke. Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word is what Yahshua, his disciples and the Apostles lived by. They did not have a so-called "New Testament", since this was written and compiled at a much later date. In order for the accounts of Mattew and Luke to harmonize with Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, the Messiah was not born of a "virgin", but was in fact a desendant and of the seed of Dawid as Father Yahweh's prophetic word proclaims.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them (Isaiah 8:20).

The accounts of Matthew and Luke as they have been translated most definately do not speak in accordance with this testamony and His inspired prophetic word.

Yahshua: Born of a "Virgin"?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/773295646/virgin-birth

ijawkid:


Ben I can see you are still as confused as ever.....

1...Question is... why is it that the father and
Jesus share same spirit? Why is the holy spirit
the spirit of christ at same time the spirit of
the father?

Answer::...

33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand
of God, and having received from the Father
the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured
out this that you yourselves are seeing and
hearing.

Jesus was promised the holy spirit and he was given...by virtue of that Jesus can also transmit this spirit to his servants...

So for your information the Father and Jesus do not share the holy spirit equally..one(the Father) owns it,the other was given...sometimes I wonder wether you guys sit down to read scriptures before you quote out of point to support this develish doctrine called the trinity..have you ever in your life hear that the Father was given the holy spirit or that holy spirit was poured on the Father??..

2...just like you like the verse that says the
father is the Only One God and yet reject
that Jesus is the only One lord is what baffles
me. yet the father is Lord and Jesus is Lord
as the father is the One God same with Jesus.
Jesus is the God over all include all of you
here

Answer...

I never rejected Jesus as the one Lord portended by that verse..I only gave an explanation how that happened..but as usual you forfeited the main issue which is::who is the one God to hold on to the one Lord that was mentioned so that you can delude yourself further...

Now this is the scripture I quoted to clear the air..

Acts 2:34-36

34 For David did not ascend into the
heavens, but he himself says,
“‘The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your
footstool.”’
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know
for certain that God has made him both Lord
and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified


This scripture shows explicitly how Jesus ended up the one Lord mentioned in 1 corinthians 8:6...he was made,appointed and annointed as Lord and meSsiah by no other person but the Father...this one appointed Lord over God the Fathers house and people is whom david saw that was exalted.....

My problem with you is why run away from the glaring fact that the Father is the one God alone and not a mixture of 3 persons ,but chase after the one lord mentioned in that verse??...and you never wondered why the apostle paul forgot completely about the holy spirit in situations like this that should prove the trinity if at all it exists.......shaking my ijaw head...


3....I put it to you that Jesus was created.....I have provided scriptural proof which you have dodged and explained with answers which you yourself aren't convinced of....

You wriggled your way through the clear and glaring facts that Jesus is both Gods firstborn and the beginning of Gods creation......

You gave definitions that you thought could help you run away,but my brother the truth will chase you until you concede to it.....

I provided scriptural parrallels for Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation just as you did for firstborn(though you never gave all the examples of what it means for someone to be firstborn),but you completely ignored them...infact even the definition you gave that Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation means he is the chief of Gods creation was shown to mean Jesus was the first thing/person God ever created from the scriptures...

You dodged it my brother....

Then in another thread you conceded the Father is greater than Jesus thereby debunking even the doctrine you hold so tight......you are very confused....

Just a scripture that would show that the Father,son and holy spirit make up one GOD should suffice for all this argument....but behold,no scripture of such exists.....

You better stick with the explicit and consistent verses that shows the Father alone is the one God who is the God of Jesus Christ and all of us....

You had better abandon this demonic doctrine before Jesus himself gets to you....

......

Benjamin:

when you say Jesus is the first born and that means first created... we can conclude that the father have 4 first born....

benalvino:


john 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. this bold font debunk you...
if without him no creature was made that means the contradiction is there...
now you refuse to address Melchizedek who has no beginning and end like the son of man this mystery person or possibly Jesus has no Beginning of days or end...
Now was he there when God was creating Jesus? if so Jesus cant be the firstborn as you mean it to be first created. someone was there who you believe is not God and Melchizedek is his name.

benalvino:

When some one tries to explain something to you... the way you call mopol to guide your mind which is put into bullion Van will make you not to accept the fact...



rev 3:14 i told you that is source of the creation of God... which goes with colossians and john 1:1-4... yet you insist that he is created... then i said address all the contradictions that arise which you have not done till today... you keep saying there is no contradiction... let me show you the contradictions once again in bold

1: Colossians says through him all things came into existence he is before all things and by him all things consist.

if he is a thing(creature) how can he create all things and not all other things?

benalvino:

2: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

this verse again shows contradiction... because it said without Jesus not a single thing came into existence... it means without Jesus nothing was made... even Jesus cant be made without Jesus, that's what this verse says.

benalvino:


all the verses i presented i am happy you only tried to tackle just 2... others shows clearly that Jesus is God...

benalvino:


another big question you cant answer is that... son and father took part in the Creation as God my believes...
you said Jesus was a tool used in creation... it still means that the 2 of them created everything... it can be only true if the father says He created everything alone, i.e Jesus is sidelined if the Son and the father is the one God...
the bible says same of Jesus doing the work alone.
since we know it is the work of the father and son... why this verse says Malachi 2:10" has not one God created us"
if according to you it is not One God that created us all... but God and angel created us all?

benalvino:

when you say Jesus is the first born and that means first created... we can conclude that the father have 4 first born....

when you say Jesus was created... then we can conclude that Jesus was created through Jesus.

john 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. this bold font debunk you...
if without him no creature was made that means the contradiction is there...
now you refuse to address Melchizedek who has no beginning and end like the son of man this mystery person or possibly Jesus has no Beginning of days or end...
Now was he there when God was creating Jesus? if so Jesus cant be the firstborn as you mean it to be first created. someone was there who you believe is not God and Melchizedek is his name.

When some one tries to explain something to you... the way you call mopol to guide your mind which is put into bullion Van will make you not to accept the fact...

rev 3:14 i told you that is source of the creation of God... which goes with colossians and john 1:1-4... yet you insist that he is created... then i said address all the contradictions that arise which you have not done till today... you keep saying there is no contradiction... let me show you the contradictions once again in bold

1: Colossians says through him all things came into existence he is before all things and by him all things consist.

if he is a thing(creature) how can he create all things and not all other things?

2: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

this verse again shows contradiction... because it said without Jesus not a single thing came into existence... it means without Jesus nothing was made... even Jesus cant be made without Jesus, that's what this verse says.

all the verses i presented i am happy you only tried to tackle just 2... others shows clearly that Jesus is God...

another big question you cant answer is that... son and father took part in the Creation as God my believes...
you said Jesus was a tool used in creation... it still means that the 2 of them created everything... it can be only true if the father says He created everything alone, i.e Jesus is sidelined if the Son and the father is the one God...
the bible says same of Jesus doing the work alone.
since we know it is the work of the father and son... why this verse says Malachi 2:10" has not one God created us"
if according to you it is not One God that created us all... but God and angel created us all?

truthislight:

^^^

what is really your problem guy ?

Cant you really read the title of this thread and respect the intention of the op ?

It is not talking about trinity, carry your trinity to your trinity threads and stop belng a nuisance.

Learn to be balance and not carter the thread.
Smh.

benalvino:

you are pot and calling kettle black abi? have you ever asked frosbel or ijawkid if they read the title? stop drinking that kool-aid

benalvino: Romans 9:5 the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!


Titus 2:13 the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

ijawkid:

Lol.....confusion galore....

Is there another person you know apart from Jesus who is the firstborn of all creation??....if you knw abeg tell all of us.....

and he is also the beginning of Gods creation...is there another person who is the beginning of Gods creation??.....




Oh and you forgot the word THROUGH

Jesus remains the vendor through which God created other things other than Jesus whom he created first.......

Now melchizedek.....::::

when ever melchizedek is mentioned in the scriptures or when he is connected to Jesus what is the main focus??.....PRIESTHHOOD right??......

Now ask yourself when it is said melchizedek has no beginning of days and no parents,in what sense does that apply??.....

Ofcourse we know the Jesus we are talking about has a parent(Yahweh) and God the Father is his Father.....so how is melchizedek having no parent connected to Jesus??....it has to do with his role as a priest......remember melchizedeks priesthood office was one that never came from a family tree.......the Father himself appointed melchizedek to serve as priest..unlike the other priests who became priests by virtue of being born into priesthood,Jesus and melchizedek were appointed high priests by Yahweh himself.....

Melchizedek having no parents has nothing to do with his literal beginning........melchizedek was indeed born by a woman and was a man......

Thank you....



Now maybe I need to bring a sharp object to clear off the moulds in your ears.....

Revelations 3:14 has shown Jesus had a beginning......now when all is used it ofcourse includes Jesus himself through which all(other) things were made but excludes the Father who created Jesus.......revelation 3:14 tells you that other should be used even if it doesn't appear in that verse..........

An exact example was given using 1 corinthians 15:24-28 where all authority was given to Jesus..but when all is used it excludes the Father who gave Jesus all authority,while Jesus himself is under the authority of the Father....

So ALL in no way excludes Jesus from being a creature of God......

Just as you can't exclude reuben who is the beginning of Jacobs pro creative power from Jacobs kids,so also you can't sneak Jesus out of Gods creation...he is the first of Gods work,creation and plan...


And always take note of the word THROUGH when ever you think of escaping this lucid points.....



And all you do is ignore the word THROUGH.....

Please can we say it was through the Father God created all things??...

Can you please put on your thinking caps for once??........

Sorry to burst you bubbles....Jesus himself was created......so your points are null and void........


The nothing in the verse u quoted excludes Jesus himself who was created by his Father.......


Jesus was created by his Father as the first of Gods work......


And there is this question that gets you dumb founded.....

If Jesus is equal to his Father who caused him as you assume,can't we conclude the Father can also be called the firstborn of all creation and the beginning of Gods creation...??....

This question answers your questions as to if Jesus was created or had a beginning....





All your questions have been tackled a long time ago........

And I'm quite happy the other questions were tackled.........



Now I ask you d same question I have been asking desika in the other thread....

When sins are forgiven who is said to have forgiven them??.........GOD the Father alone or all of those he has appointed and given the authority to forgive sins??........




consistently the scriptures have shown Jesus was Gods vendor.....the linking word through is used to describe Jesus' position in creation......

While the Jesus himself was created as first of Gods creation......

God the Father remains outstanding because he created or caused the vendor he used or employed in creating all things(Father excepted,while Father created Jesus)........

hisblud: bros eh! You don add clean clear headach to dis frosbel troop. Lol see this verses you quote. They are too much. But you know what, giving them this scripture as a lump, will make them dribble themselves over words. Kai! Just take one verse, call them to explore it in context and you would see them fidgeting and falling over themselves to dodge. A trial will convince you.

frosbel: Gents what have you done to my thread ? You derailed it !

truthislight:

benalvino:

anytime time you cant answer a question just admit... if you have to conclude its dumb... state why it is dumb.

through Jesus everything was created and still creation took place with the 2 of them... that fact has not changed.

benalvino:

you still didnt answer why he has no beginning of days and end...
Melchizedek was "without mother, without father, without descent," or as the Phillips translation renders it: "He had no father or mother and no family tree." He was not born as human beings are. He was without father and mother. This does not mean that Melchizedek's records of birth were lost. Without such records human priests could not serve (Ezra 2:62). But here Melchizedek had no genealogy. you know what this mean abi? He must not have been an ordinary mortal. He had no descent or pedigree from another, but was self-existent. Notice Paul's own inspired interpretation of this fact: "Having neither beginning of days, nor end of life" (Hebrews 7:3). Therefore He has always existed from eternity! He was not even created, like angels. But He is now eternally self-existing. as you said he is born of a woman when it states that he has non... not even beginning how come you know or go against the bible statement to say he was born as a woman? which verse makes you say that? who born am?

the key question is you can say someone is mortal or ordinary man if the bible says he has no beginning and end just like God... that cant be said to a man. Never.

benalvino:

y'all can see that he cant address the contradiction... so he does what he likes to do! say its a stupid question.
God create everything through JESUS i follow you agree... But there are 2 person that did the creation at the end. you cant say Only God did it... when according to you he did it with an angel.

benalvino:

Rev 3:14 shows he is the source of the creations of God which supports colossians and john 1:1-4. if he is created then this contradictions comes and you still cant address them and you will call them stupid again... 1: Colossians says through him all things came into existence he is before all things and by him all things consist.

if he is a thing(creature) how can he create all things and not all other things?

benalvino:

2: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

ijawkid:

This is why the book of proverbs is there to clear the air..but behold you reject it and come back here to yap.....

Jesus was pictured as a craftsman by Gods side....

Proverbs indeed gives a thrilling revelation of Jesus' role in creation....

Remember how he was brought forth(a word you said you know nothing about and was unwilling to learn)before the mountains and the earth was formed??.....

For the basic fact that Jesus was created shows the Father remains the one creator....

Just as a contractor remains the one OGA even though he has employed a project manager to oversee his business and also doing all his biddings through that project manager...



Melchizedek was a mortal and a man born of a woman...as real as abraham who met him...read genesis 14:17-20..and hebrews 7:4-10.....that is why you have to re-allign your thoughts on his being said of having no Father nor mother(without geneology)....



Melchizedek definitly had parents...infact he also had an end to his physical life like every other human....he was human and not superhuman or an angel that fell from heaven...

Romans 5:14

New International Version
(©2011)
Nevertheless, death reigned from
the time of Adam to the time of
Moses, even over those who did
not sin by breaking a command, as
did Adam, who is a pattern of the
one to come.

Melchizedek was as real a human just like me and you....

Now how and why is it said he has no family tree??...

The scriptures do not give details about melchizedeks family lineage-his ancestors or any possible descendants.....that information is just not a matter of biblical record...from pauls standpoint and with the information he had on melchizedek he could rightly say melchizedek was without geneology...(Without a table of descent,or with no family tree)...

The question now is in what was Jesus like melchizedek??...

We all know Jesus' family line from the scriptures...both here earthly and heavenly....Jesus was born by mary and of the tribe of Judah with david as his fore-father...

Now let us get the full sense of how Jesus would be like melchizedek in having no family tree....

It has nothing to do with Jesus' living or if he had a beginning or not...his being drawn alongside melchizedek has to do fully with his being a high priest....gbam!!!.....

Jesus was not born in the tribe of levi,the tribe for priests in the nation of isreal...Jesus had not and did not become a priest of the most high God through human geneology...neither had melchizedek,who had not become a priest according to the law of a commandment depending upon the flesh ,that is,by being born into a priestly tribe and family...

Hebrews 7:11-16 hit the nail on the head....
___________________________
11 If perfection could have been attained
through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed
the law given to the people established that
priesthood—why was there still need for
another priest to come, one in the order of
Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, the
law must be changed also. 13 He of whom
these things are said belonged to a different
tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever
served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our
Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to
that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
15 And what we have said is even more clear
if another priest like Melchizedek appears,
16 one who has become a priest not on the
basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on
the basis of the power of an indestructible
life.
___________________________

The above verse clears everything...

Rather than becoming a priest through a human Father who had himself been a priest,Jesus had been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of melchizedek....

Read hebrews 5:10

10 and was designated by God to be high
priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Further more Jesus did not have any descendants or successor to his priesthood..in this vain too,he was without geneology....

Jesus' link to melchizedek has nothing to do with his literal origin..rather it is linked to his serving as Gods priest forever as did melchizedek......

Besides common sense should tell you that the high priest of God cannot be the God he is serving as high priest for...common sense ooooooo..................



Only God did it because the vendor he used in creating other things he created by himself...



Wrong!!!!....revelation 3:14 explicitly shows Jesus is the first of Gods creation.....

You are the one contradicting revelation 3:14 by not wanting to understand colossians.....


In no way does revelation 3:14 suggests Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation means he is the source..that definition is in your head and not in the scriptures....kindly coin out a parallel use of the expression "beginning of"to support your claim.....there is more than enough evidence as to the use of that expression...and in all cases it shows the person in question had a beginning,but the first....

Jesus had a beginning ooooo......







Jesus had a beginning my brother...

No escape route for you......

He is the beginning of Gods creation.......

The first of Gods creation....

Benjamin:

Guys this is an example of how he never agrees with the bible...
1: the bible made it clear that he doesn't have mother and father...
2: no Genealogy
3: no beginning and end

yet he says the bible is lying that he has a mother... he has an end and beginning... a beg give a verse that says that? do you think a mare mortal will be given a name call King of righteousness and king of peace?
just as you said Jesus was lying when he says he is not a spirit... you are doing it again.
so as he is human like me and you was the bible lying? show me his mother...and why he didn't have beginning nor end?
the only way you can conclude is by saying the bible is not true that you are the one saying the truth.

the bible give enough details telling you that he has none...

benalvino:

For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
this verse is the complete opposite of what you are saying and you cant even backup your saying with a single bible verse.

some times you sound like say Jesus get mother for heaven before him come.

what you explain on Hebrew 7 did not answer the question... it doesn't prove he has descent man...

benalvino:

sorry but bible teaches Jesus is a descendant of his father David.
all i want you to do is tell me where he came from... who born am. if he had a mother or something bible for no say without mother or father... we all know that people parents die. even Jesus was traced back to his is father David. So dont say what you dont know.

God is mysterious bro...

benalvino:

Not only God did it. Jesus follow am... if you like say he created Jesus or not at the end there 2 did it. you can dance how ever you like but you will still settle that 2 person take part in creation.

whether contractor or oga or whatever... the number of people you employ to fix a road is the team that fix it. only the ogan cannot fix it thats why he employs ok... so you danced and still come back to 2 person took part in creation yet again.

benalvino:

when the bible says the Father is the beginning and end... we can assume that there was a time he was not existing then he became the beginning and he will have end abi?

benalvino:

About proverbs according to how you translate it... there was a time God was without wisdom abi? there was a time God was not wise... so without wisdom where did he get the wisdom to create wisdom?

ijawkid:
Those features are not in reference to melchizedeks existence...they are in reference to his priesthood......a beg apart from priesthood what else do we have to do with melchizedek??....

Tell me...please tell me......if not for Jesus serving as a priest do you think we would even be talking about melchizedek??.....

The scriptures does not in anyway tell us that this man under consideration was super human or an angel who descended....melchizedek was existing here on earth as Gods priest....God aPpointed him not through any family tree,but appointed him straight away as his high priest,and in that manner was Jesus' priestly office attained.....


Right there in hebrews 7 it is shown Jesus had a family tree....this is why I tell you those features of melchizedek has nothing to do with his existence but with his priestly office and how it was attained.....




Now would reading down that chapter not solve all your problem??.......down that chapter explains all about melchizedeks being without a family tree with respect to his priestly office,,,,,,he isn't from the tribe of Levi neither was his office attained from aaron......

Didn't you read it??.......didn't you??.....

My problem is the parallels are drawn with respect to priesthood alone.....

Jesus would be fashioned in the manner of melchizedek as regards to priesthood and nothing more.....


You even agree that Jesus had a family tree......we all know......

Nobody would come out and say Jesus didn't have a family tree.......

so in what way was he in the manner of melchizedek??.....

His priestly office.......gbam!!!!!!......it cannot be traced through a family tree.......

Rather that office was attained from God himself.......

You dey see the parallel??.......



And all you have done is reject all of the scriptures as a whole.......

The one creator from whom all things came has being established,and that is the Father...please read 1 corinthians 8:6 and see it clearly.......

Jesus remains the vendor while The Father is the source from which Jesus himself was formed........



When the bible says the Father is the beginning and end,did it go any further to add any clause??....or maybe you want to add a clause abi??..........

Jesus was not just refered to as beginning and end,the scriptures spoil ona show well well by calling him the beginning of some one elses creation............the beginning of Gods creation......



Show spoilt!!!!!!!!........

Deep down in you you can't call the Father the beginning of Gods creation.....if you can please say so.....neither can you call the Father Gods firstborn........

Jesus remains Gods creation but the first of it........

You can't go around calling him chief of creation or leader when scriptural evidence shows otherwise.....



And sorry sir its not how I translated it...its how the scriptures says it.........

The wisdom in that verse is definitly not Gods intrinsic wisdom....this wisdom that proclaims that God created him as the beginning of his works was definitly Jesus.....

Take not of the expression ""beginning of"" again..........

Don't delude yourself with your question as to wether God didn't have wisdom before he created wisdom......

That path of reasoning is one of the most foolish I have ever seen........

It is clear that wisdom in proverbs was created,brough forth,born,formed,produced,set up etc......

Your question would be like asking if God did not have glory before he created glory(man is the glory of God)........


The scriptures In the new testament even confirms who that wisdom is that was by Gods side after being created as a craftsman,labourer working alongside with God..........




I have been waiting for you to come up with a definition for brought forth but you ran away with full force from your other thread........that proverbs explains who Jesus is and how he came about...he had a beginning...only a blind man won't see that.......

benalvino:

you failed to address Melchisedec... the beginning and end of life stop without mother nor father genealogy... you tried to say those stuff said about him is directed to his priesthood which is like saying you are talking to my hand and not me... Jesus is the high priest i know there cant be 2 high priest.

benalvino:

you have concluded that his priesthood cannot be traced through family tree... lol. again he has no beginning of and end of life... the bible should say he has no mother or father or genealogy if he really do. what you will do is, you will try to move us in circles.

benalvino:

I didn't reject anything... Again you are saying same thing as me... the father Created through Jesus and without Jesus nothing was made... fact still remains... 2 persons took part in creation... again desika has should you this which you wont accept and you wont accept it now. NOTHING WAS MADE WITHOUT JESUS... It means the father and son took part in creation.

The bible teaches that Jesus is the power and wisdom of God... the bible also teaches that God posses wisdom... God has a wisdom then create another wisdom? then use the new wisdom he created to do his work and he was not using his own intrinsic wisdom? we have discuss this and you refuse answering who prudence was... why wisdom(a she) was crying... why she(wisdom) build her house... who was prudence wisdom was dwelling with.

benalvino:

that verse doesn't read created or produced... it reads "posses"

am not calling the father a creation... same Greek words was used... Now if the father is the beginning and end does it make him have a beginning and end?
Jesus was also called the beginning and end... here is why! the bible says all things consist by him... the whole universe.... So he is the beginning and end. without him the universe cant hold... don't bring that your last that God raise from the Dead story.

benalvino:

See all the Definition you bring lol concerning wisdom...
you can follow Arius and his controversy... the right translation for proverbs 8:22 is possess... never a time God was without wisdom...
when you are done with all this running around... when you don't add other things in colossians and john... it contradicts you badly.
the contradictions is what i want you to fix and you haven't. we have been running round and round about this till date no contradiction have been fixed.

Frank4YAHWEH:

I will proclaim Yahweh's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father (Psalm 2:7).

This is prophetic of when Yahshua would become Father Yahweh's son. Note that there was a time when Yahshua became His son. This tells me that there was a time that he was not His son.

No man has seen Yahweh at any time; the only begotten son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him (Yahchanan [John] 1:18).

Note the Trinitarian bias in the following transaltion of this verse:

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. - New International Version (©2011)

And people try to tell me that there is no bias in translation! Poppycock!

For Yahweh so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (Yahchanan [John] 3:16).

And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone who sees the son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day (Yahchanan [John] 6:40).

Most of the Scripture passages that you have presented simply make it known that Yahshua is Father Yahweh's only begotten son. I do not deny this. We also can become begotten sons (daughters, children) of Father Yahweh, but this does not have anything to do with our pre-existing our birth or being born of a "virgin" just as it does not have anything to do with Yahshua pre-existing his birth and being born of a "virgin." What it is that I deny is that he pre-existed his birth and that he was born of a "virgin", not that he was Father Yahweh's only begotten son. He was the only begotten at that time, sin he is the first fruit of the "first fruits" of many begotten ["born again"] sons (daughters, children) As I had stated previously, I do not believe the accounts of Matthew and Luke as they have been translated and I prefer what is prophesied in Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word over the accounts of Matthew and Luke. Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word is what Yahshua, his disciples and the Apostles lived by. They did not have a so-called "New Testament", since this was written and compiled at a much later date. In order for the accounts of Mattew and Luke to harmonize with Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, the Messiah was not born of a "virgin", but was in fact a desendant and of the seed of Dawid as Father Yahweh's prophetic word proclaims.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them (Isaiah 8:20).

The accounts of Matthew and Luke as they have been translated most definately do not speak in accordance with this testamony and His inspired prophetic word.

Yahshua: Born of a "Virgin"?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/773295646/virgin-birth

ijawkid:
And it didn't occur to you that Jesus' priesthood was in the manner of melchizedek....do you even know what it means when it is said Jesus' priesthood is in the manner of melchizedek??....

When moses said God would raise up a prophet like Him(moses),what did it mean??......

Are there 2 prophets??.....

Or is moses an extra terrestial being??




And those terms apply strictly to melchizedeks role as priest and not to his existence.......

Can we trace melchizedek and Jesus' geneology as regards priesthood??......are they both from the tribe of LEVI??..

Answer please...




When Jesus is refered to as wisdom and power of God what does it mean??.....you are the one here who needs serious classes....

What does it mean if Jesus is called wisdom of God??....does it mean Jesus is Gods intrinsic wisdom??...please grow some sense....

The last time we discussed this issue your views were as myopic as that of toddler....

Now let us see what it means when Jesus is refered to as an attribute of God....

Acts 8:10..

New Living Translation (©2007)
Everyone, from the least to the
greatest, often spoke of him as
"the Great One--the Power of
God."


Now:::....how is it possible that this man,simon who performed powerful works is refered to as the power of God??.....what does it mean when one is refered to as an attribute of God??

Does is it mean the individual is literally Gods attribute and therefore inside of God??...

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!......

Jesus was Gods wisdom and power in that through Jesus Gods power was made manifest and that Jesus exhibited Gods wisdom....

That is why Jesus is called the greater solomon...



Please grow up




Jesus was never called the beginning and end...that is where we would argue to death.....


And the Father cannot be the beginning of Gods creation.....

My problem is if you stick to your stiff necked stance,why can't you also call the Father the beginning of Gods creation??...why??.....


And the greek word used is linked with Jesus dependent on or being part of some one elses creation....

Is Jesus the God of which he is the beginning of his(Gods) creation.??

I have shown you all definitions were this expression is used but you have rejected them....can you please produce a counter scripture that says otherwise??.....

Can you provide a scripture that refutes the notion that the expression" beginning of" when linked to someone elses work does not include the individual as part of the work of whom he is the beginning of??.......

Please scriptures...






You dey make me vex.........possessed my foot...

Let us see this renderings that didn't play wayo........

New International Version
(©2011)
"The LORD brought me forth as
the first of his works, before his
deeds of old;

New Living Translation (©2007)
"The LORD formed me from the
beginning, before he created
anything else.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
(©2009)
The LORD made me at the
beginning of His creation, before
His works of long ago.

International Standard Version
(©2012)
"The LORD made me as he began
his planning, before his ancient
activity commenced.

NET Bible (©2006)
The LORD created me as the
beginning of his works, before his
deeds of long ago.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
(©2010)
“Lord Jehovah created me at the
beginning of his creation and from
before all of his works.”



The in the next 2 or 3 verses this WISDOM said he was formed,born,brought forth,


New International Version
(©2011)
When there were no watery
depths, I was given birth, when
there were no springs overflowing
with water;

New Living Translation (©2007)
I was born before the oceans
were created, before the springs
bubbled forth their waters.


English Standard Version
(©2001)
When there were no depths I was
brought forth, when there were no
springs abounding with water.


GNT
24 I was born before the oceans, when there
were no springs of water.




The next verses totally exposes the rendering of "possessed" used....

I am even sure it is you that is reading possessed to mean another thing......


This wisdom was born,brought forth,created,formed,made etc....

Think of all the words that represents creation is what was used on wisdom.....

only a blind person whose case is worse than steven wonder would want to evade proverbs 8:22-30.....


The book even provides a wonderful picture of how Jesus was beside God after he was created as a master workman,a craftsman,a labourer who has being taught by his God and Father.......