MiddleDimension:
I would apprecite it very much if you do justice to this topic:
F15/F16 vs SU35 in an all out war, which would you prefer is fighting for you? Which onedo you think is a better air superiority fight?
@Algerian @Flnker @jl115 @covert1 nd everyone else.

Personally, in an all out war. Let's say Nigeria is involved in a war with a neighbor and Nigeria is in a dire need of air superiority fighters for the Airforce. The F16s won't even be in the conversation. I understand that single fighters are cheaper to maintain but single engine fighters are a no-no for me in this scenario. Don't get me wrong, the F16 is my favorite aircraft. I like its bubble canopy. However, with the international politics around our best bet would be the Su-35s. It's supermanuverable. I'm aware it operates a PESA radar. Some debates say PESA radars are outdated but I don't buy that. The F15s are one of those fighters with the highest success rates in the world. It's tested but the strings attached to the purchase of these aircrafts would be a big hindrance to us.

So, I'll choose the Su-35 because it has enough payload, a quality engine and radar, no limits or strings attached to the purchase, range and maneuverability.

Stormtrooper11:


2003 US invasion of Iraq??

Was iraq proactively sponsored by china and russian just like in vietnam

jl115:
comparing Ethiopia to Botswana is comical my bru and I don't think i gave to explain why...... Zimbabwe was at one stage one of the most powerful African countries even though it was landlocked.

When you mean powerful, you mean soft power I think.

davefurn:

Was iraq proactively sponsored by china and russian just like in vietnam

Are you aware that Iraq had the 3rd strongest armed forces in the world in the year 2003?! But was torn into bits by the United States within few months?!

If the United States invaded Ukraine today like Russia did, we would had been talking about how to execute Zelensky right now

Stormtrooper11:


Are you aware that Iraq had the 3rd strongest armed forces in the world in the year 2003?! But was torn into bits by the United States within few months?!

If the United States invaded Ukraine today like Russia did, we would had been talking about how to execute Zelensky right now

Strongest is different from largest, take note..... And it was 1990 that saddam hussein boosted iraqi army to be the 4th largest land army in the world. Simple recruiting can do that. Not only that, not just the us army fought the war, with nato inclusive notwithstanding, no foreign super-power tier supporting iraq because then soviet union collapsed that's 1990.

davefurn:

Strongest is different from largest, take note..... And it was 1990 that saddam hussein boosted iraqi army to be the 4th largest land army in the world. Simple recruiting can't do that. Not only that not just the us army fought the war, while nato inclusive notwithstanding no foreign super power tier supporting iraq because then soviet union collapsed that's 1990

So...what's your point now?!

Stormtrooper11:


So...what's your point now?!

Just some.little corrections that's all..... Russia had their bad days, US also had that...... You can't compare iraqi war with us, which was just simple crushing in terms of equipments because no matter how you destroy us equipment, they simply make more; that's now terrifying fighting a superpower is but you on the other hand need to buy more unless you have another big nation backing you up just like in Ukraine situation inwhich the whole nato and EU is supporting them. Zelensky knew the trick, so he went round asking for help.

Even in that 1991. Iraq was just a scape-goat for US to establish their power after Soviet Union collapse and the embarrassing defeat of vietnam redemption, inwhich you see it hyped on hollywood. 2003 US invasion, is not even a war; Russian tanks t-64 to t-74 series tanks being blown up, what do you expect, Soviet are in favour of being large amount of light weight tanks in favour of heavy weight. Western tanks analogy is to have a heavy tanks as the vanguard but different from soviet doctrine that believes in a quantity is far better than quality in tanks and land warfare. Like towards the end of the ww2 before nuking japan; inwhich the us used their large amount of aircraft carriers to crush japanese 2 aircraft carriers after a suffocating loss from them,beginning of ww2 because of japan superior carriers then. That's quantity over quality that influenced the soviet and then Stalin ideology. He mass produced light weight tanks with cheap technology; so most soviet tanks are not as durable as the western/german tanks. If you want to judge the war, just it from 2 povs. Russia just barely recovered from soviet union collapse, we keep watching though. And defeating US, you can't use military to defeat US; just cut off their money and you have defeated them that's why US frowns heavily on anything against dollars sovereignty. Forgive my grammatical errors, not well now; so my typing is sloppy.

Stormtrooper11:


When you mean powerful, you mean soft power I think.

no I mean in terms of military, politics and economically they were powerful in the 80s

Stormtrooper11:


2003 US invasion of Iraq??

Iraq was not equip like Ukraine. First USA and EU sanctions Iraq which stop the procurement of part for there aircraft, another Iraq was not support by any country especially in arm

Stormtrooper11:


Are you aware that Iraq had the 3rd strongest armed forces in the world in the year 2003?! But was torn into bits by the United States within few months?!

If the United States invaded Ukraine today like Russia did, we would had been talking about how to execute Zelensky right now

The US is this strong yet, they took 7months to defeat libya's pooly equiped military! The Nato campaign started in march and Ghadaffi got killed in october.

Stormtrooper11:
Okay, people I got these questions. Can someone please tell me what's on the Mi-28 rotor?! I'm thinking is a radar or something cos I found out that the AH-64 got something like that.

Also, do you think the Ugandan Mi-28 purchase is a better option than our AH-1Z vipers? Afterall, we ain't gonna be getting AGM-114 hellfires or any ATGMs but there is word they'll be having em in alotta numbers.

Thanks.

Yes, Ugandan MI-28N considerably provide more than the AH-1Z which Nigeria would be getting from the US.

The Ugandan Air Force would be able to use their MI-28N as they please without any restrictions, while for nearly 1 billion dollars, Nigeria might not even be able to use the AH-1Z Viper against Bandits.

While Nigeria gets laser guided Rockets (APKWS) which is an amazing system and works effectively against armoured vehicles including Tanks, it is not an ATGM. So that's also an edge for Uganda.

All things considered, Uganda got a better deal.

Notwithstanding, Nigeria also has MI-35M helicopters armed with ATAKA ATGMs, also we have the possibility of upgrading our MI-35ps to the latest MI-35m standards. Although a big "?" At this stage considering the war in Ukraine.

Omofaye99:


Nobody knows bro, until they both engage each other anything can happen..even the hyped Raptor might get shot down by JF17 miraculously

It's not a question of might, warfare is not equipment, equipment helps, but tactics is more important.

Covert1:


Nothing like "miraculously" in Air Combat in the context of putting in the good work, systems & platforms: air training hours, re-training, air combat hours, BVR, stealth, EW, ECM, doctrine, pilot skill, discipline, exposure with counter forces to pick up radar signatures, pay & incentives, motivation, logistics, satellites, AWACS, ground based systems and a host of other factors including allies play into inevitable or predictable outcomes other than that combat pilots attribute unseen forces as an "act of God" which can be bird strike or generally uncontrollable acts of nature.

Excellent post.

Covert1:


It's a good question. Aircrafts have roles. Bottom line is in today's modern air warfare, in the context of air-air combat, air superiority fighters are not up there programmed for first line of action Within-Visual-Range engagement (WVR) rather the F-15 or F-16 is programmed or suited for Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) engagement. Simply put it is set up to detect at longer ranges and out of sight enemy aircrafts and light them up. That is why today the USAF incorporates 5th generation subsystems into the F-16s. I believe a portion of current US F-16 inventory have now AESA radars same which they have on the F-35s giving it the advantage to detect more targets at longer ranges and light them up. So in effect in the context of BVR combat its more about what you have on the aircraft than about the platform itself. The difference in platform in this instance is either a two engine fighter or single engine fighter, single seat or dual. In a practical warfare scenario an Tactical Air Combat Command would send aircrafts up for the roles they are best suited and for which they are built.

Now for the Su-35, generally the Flanker family aircrafts are built to be super maneuverable which gives it an edge in Within-Visual-Range (WVR) engagements. Here the Russian aircraft excels the F-15. Except for the USAF F-22 no other known fighter aircraft arguably can super maneuver as the Sukhoi aircrafts. However nations pour money into stealth and BVR technologies because in a peer warfare you might be dead in the air before you blink, it's more about who sees first shoots first. However the SU-35 an excellent non-stealthy aircraft has been used by the Russians to go up against the F-22 or F-35 both stealthy aircrafts and detected them at greater ranges so that would put it above the F-15 and certainly above the F-16. It is a deadly fighter. The Americans still don't have an answer for the SU-27 in the F-15 except for the stealthy F-35. Also of note is other factors that can play a role, aircraft availability which brings in maintenance, here western aircrafts have an edge as they are easier and cheaper to maintain and more reliable jet engines which produce more thrust.

I stress in the end pilot training, air combat hours, pilot agility and skill play a crucial role. A Saudi fighter pilot for instance can not be compared in proficiency to an Irainian fighter pilot. So having a shiny bird is one thing and having a nationalistic loyal skilled pilot is another factor in an adrenaline air combat.

Ground based systems or air borne systems like AWACS also can give an advantage. For everything developed there is a counter development. The Germans already excel in detection of stealth aircraft from ground based systems and reports have it the Iranians have once picked up the signature of USAF Lockhead-Martin Stealth F-35 aggressors with Russian supplied ground based radar.

I will choose an SU-35 as a sovereign nation with no inhibitions whatsoever in deployment and access to every code in its weapon suite to optimize employment of the fighter jet. JF-17s are now being optimized with AESA radars too.

Another excellent post.

However I will go for the latest iteration of the F-15 over the latest iteration of the SU-35.

Americans generally build better aircrafts, with better avionics than Russians.

RiceProducers:


Very good and accurate discourse.
I only disagree on SU27s and their derivatives. They are not showing good performance in Ukraine in terms of good sensors, self protection systems and counter measures

That's arguable in favor of Russia. There's been no real dogfights, none was expected and any purported air-air engagement Russia prevailed convincingly. The Su-27s that made contact with enemy ground fire or air defense systems were flown very low not at altitude and attrition was extremely low, in fact the Russians continue to make those low flights with planes and helicopters. Ukraine has lost its airspace irretrievably. Russian gear especially in Russian hands or say any intelligent armed forces like the Nigerians works excellently just like western weapons. No one should underestimate the impact of western weapons supply to Ukraine though limited in the overall scheme of things it has popped up one surprise here or there which of course the Russians find and destroy.

kabe1:


Another excellent post.

However I will go for the latest iteration of the F-15 over the latest iteration of the SU-35.

Americans generally build better aircrafts, with better avionics than Russians.

No doubt but the politics is irritating for a regional power like Nigeria, its a no go no go.

Except of course we redefine and recalibrate our domestic and foreign policy and Nigerians being extremely proud people I don't see that happening now or the future. I think a mixture of things works, an F-15 here an SU-35 there. This has worked well for Nigeria previously.

lionel4power:


With the way Russia is handling the war in Ukraine, and the loss of it's equipment is making Western weapons now looking like a preferred choice.

Asides the political constraints on western gears, I am now convinced that western weapons has superior and quality build compared to Russian/Soviet build.

Secondly, in today's air combat, BVR is now the mainstay of aerial warfare. It doesn't matter which aircraft.

Whoever sees and shoots first lives. Nevertheless, considering the technical aspects, range of BVR missile, AESA radar detection range, and radar cross section are important in deciding who comes out alive.

Likewise other support systems like EW suite, ECCM, AEW&C, and data links can act as a force multiplier.

So in this scenario, I believe the western jets ticks off all the box.

Rarely do aircraft now come into merge but if they ever do, I believe the SU-35 gets the advantage even against stealth primarily because of it's maneuverability and it's internal OLS-35 electro-optical infra-red search and track system which can comfortably track, target, and KILL stealth aircraft from at least 20 nautical miles.

With the war in Ukraine, despite some failings of the Russian military, they continue to advance and conquer territory.

while Ukraine has performed exceptionally well against the Russians, it heavily relies on Western military support; if the plug were pulled, it is likely that Ukraine would have been overrun.

The West continues to support Ukraine to the tune of 5-7 billion USD a month.

The West has better Air systems than Russia, but we've seen the Russians deploy many breakthrough systems in Ukraine.

I don't see how Russian fighter jets will compare against comparable Western Fighters, the gap is quite significant more so in the air to ground role.

Russia in many cases bombing targets with advanced SU-30sm fighter jets like the Nigerian Air Force using Alpha Jets. The lack of investment in laser guided systems, and similar JDAM kits by the Russians, a lack of investment in considerable number of UCAVs are showing glaringly.

Apart from the KA-52 and SU-25, I doubt Russian aircrafts can compare favourably to their American analogues.

JOSCOFELIX:
sir no western aircraft have being involved in this type of war with a well equipped country. Majority of this western weapons may produce the same result if involved in a conflict related to this

This is also a fair point, but Western aircrafts rarely depend on dumb bombs. This is an advantage to Western aircrafts.

Russian EW systems are excellent.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l40nEBqbXFI

kabe1:


Yes, Ugandan MI-28N considerably provide more than the AH-1Z which Nigeria would be getting from the US.

The Ugandan Air Force would be able to use their MI-28N as they please without any restrictions, while for nearly 1 billion dollars, Nigeria might not even be able to use the AH-1Z Viper against Bandits.

While Nigeria gets laser guided Rockets (APKWS) which is an amazing system and works effectively against armoured vehicles including Tanks, it is not an ATGM. So that's also an edge for Uganda.

All things considered, Uganda got a better deal.

Notwithstanding, Nigeria also has MI-35M helicopters armed with ATAKA ATGMs, also we have the possibility of upgrading our MI-35ps to the latest MI-35m standards. Although a big "?" At this stage considering the war in Ukraine.

either Serbia or Czech will run the upgrade for us
Plus it's the Mi24 variants in PH that are set out for upgrade...
Maybe paramount would do the upgrade

MiddleDimension:


I do not know if any of you are already aware of this channel on youtube, I think it is a brilliant alternative point of view. He is a former US marine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cZLquO2QTE

Good detailed analysis, lot of work. This alternative point view of the war existed though with some here already. If you see Russia built in the context of war with NATO then it's no gainsaying Ukraine will bite the dust. I repeat again Zelensky should be brought out and given a good spanking for succumbing to NATO pressure to use his kinsmen as cannon fodder for their own national interests and not signing on the dotted lines of neutrality. 200 Ukrainian soldiers dead a day are conservative estimates some reports have at 500 a day, that's cataclysmic for a nation not just the military. That's why Putin from the beginning said Ukraine is only destroying its statehood. Now Ukrainian territory has irretrievably shrunk and what no one is saying is Putin might have another go at Kiev as a response to NATO enlargement and there's no stopping him.

Germany after WW11 had to basically import Italian and Turkish men to rebuild and replenish the country and to this day have special funding for women to encourage child birth to bolster its population numbers. That's what war does to you and many other things.

Covert1:


No doubt but the politics is irritating for a regional power like Nigeria, its a no go no go.

Except of course we redefine and recalibrate our domestic and foreign policy and Nigerians being extremely proud people I don't see that happening now or the future. I think a mixture of things works, an F-15 here an SU-35 there. This has worked well for Nigeria previously.

No, we are just hypothetically speaking. Politics determines military procurement. Nigeria would not be able to buy the SU-35. That's not going to happen, the Americans would make sure of that.

Toju200:
either Serbia or Czech will run the upgrade for us
Plus it's the Mi24 variants in PH that are set out for upgrade...
Maybe paramount would do the upgrade

Serbia can't upgrade MI-24 helicopters, they bought MI-35m from Russia. Czech republic, that's also unlikely.

As it is, I don't see us upgrading those choppers for the foreseeable future.

Covert1:


Good detailed analysis, lot of work. This alternative point view of the war existed though with some here already. If you see Russia built in the context of war with NATO then it's no gainsaying Ukraine will bite the dust. I repeat again Zelensky should be brought out and given a good spanking for succumbing to NATO pressure to use his kinsmen as cannon fodder for their own national interests and not signing on the dotted lines of neutrality. 200 Ukrainian soldiers dead a day are conservative estimates some reports have at 500 a day, that's cataclysmic for a nation not just the military. That's why Putin from the beginning said Ukraine is only destroying its statehood. Now Ukrainian territory has irretrievably shrunk and what no one is saying is Putin might have another go at Kiev as a response to NATO enlargement and there's no stopping him.

Germany after WW11 had to basically import Italian and Turkish men to rebuild and replenish the country and to this day have special funding for women to encourage child birth to bolster its population numbers. That's what war does to you and many other things.

God bless you for this post

[quote author=kabe1 post=11434947
No, we are just hypothetically speaking. Politics determines military procurement. Nigeria would not be able to buy the SU-35. That's not going to happen, the Americans would make sure of that.[/quote]

That is if our next president is as dumb as Zelensky. Who are they to tell us what and what not to buy. What do they take us for, puppets. I pray we establish stronger diplomatic ties with Russia, China, Iran and even North Korea. America and their so called "political interests" have got me pissed

jl115:
yeah you already said it my bru no need to repeat yourself

go fvck yourself....
we blacks dont owe whites any explaination....

kabe1:


Serbia can't upgrade MI-24 helicopters, they bought MI-35m from Russia. Czech republic, that's also unlikely.

As it is, I don't see us upgrading those choppers for the foreseeable future.

The only power that can stop us from getting an upgrade for our Mi-24s is willpower

Incredible combat footage

KA-52 vs Ukrainian technical.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9DElCFTwUo

Nigerian Air Force

It seems the Nigerian Air Force has taken delivery of new MRAPs.

Can anyone identify the vehicles behind?

Good afternoon guys... Pls there was a page on this thread where someone said something about America referring to Nigeria as the largest democracy in Africa. Pls I will like to be referred to the certain page, I want to read through it again for research purposes pls and pls

kabe1:


Another excellent post.

However I will go for the latest iteration of the F-15 over the latest iteration of the SU-35.

Americans generally build better aircrafts, with better avionics than Russians.

I have see su 35 family going against western aircraft in Syria and giving them some nice push