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Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 10:49am On Feb 16
Amujale:


The Christian bible isn't a history textbook nor is it a measuring tool for ethical standards as the authors would have anyone believe.
I have the feeling that if you had read and understood the Christian Bible you'd behave to a higher ethical standard than you have in responding here, but I guess we'll never know because you never read, not to talk of understand it.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by Amujale(m): 1:09pm On Feb 17
budaatum:
....

For the umpteenth time, the Christian bible isn't a history textbook.

In all reality, the Abrahamic religious text are malicious tools of conquerors, manufactured specifically for those reasons.

You obviously don't take to learning well.

One cannot say you're ignorant of the truth, therefore it boils down to the fact that you're content in deceiving yourself, that's on you dude.

When it's all said and done, all those who are privy to the facts and intentionally perpetuate those fakery and falsehood shall be condemned by history.

Instead of you to use all that you ought to have learnt to make our world a better place, you choose to proactively does the bidding of these malicious tools of foreign extremist ideologies.

1 Like

Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 3:01pm On Feb 17
You really need to stop arguing with yourself. No one is claiming the Bible is history. It is mythology. Go look up the meaning and learn. Neither is anyone conquering you with it. You can read it to oppress yourself if you want to or understand it and free yourself, the choice is yours, after all, you must have heard the adage "know your enemy".

I can't understand how you would read it and become a slave unless you do not really understand what you read. Perhaps you need to be honest with us Amu and confess you never bothered reading it becaise you are afraid it will enslave you. Or perhaps you are the ignorant one here who does not understand that mythology is not history.

That said, the Bible starts off with a story of a tribe freeing themselves from slavery. Adam and Eve were slaves in the Garden of Eden and freed themselves from slavery by acquiring knowledge. It continues with another story about Moses freeing the Israelites from slavery. And it contains stories about a man called Jesus who taught people to free themselves from the slavery of ignorance, a lesson you would most definitely benefit from since you seem to be enslaved by your ignorant understanding.

"Love your neighbours" is not "malicious tools of foreign extremist ideologies", but a lesson taught in most decent societies. You should try it and see how better the world around you would become instead of constantly spewing the vitriol and hatred that seems to consume you. You'd be being the change you want to see if you do try loving those around you.


Amujale:


For the umpteenth time, the Christian bible isn't a history textbook.

In all reality, the Abrahamic religious text are malicious tools of conquerors, manufactured specifically for those reasons.

You obviously don't take to learning well.

One cannot say you're ignorant of the truth, therefore it boils down to the fact that you're content in deceiving yourself, that's on you dude.

When it's all said and done, all those who are privy to the facts and intentionally perpetuate those fakery and falsehood shall be condemned by history.

Instead of you to use all that you ought to have learnt to make our world a better place, you choose to proactively does the bidding of these malicious tools of foreign extremist ideologies.

1 Like

Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by Martian(m): 3:02am On Feb 18
shadeyinka:

I think that the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil is an examination of choice for COMPLETE INDEPENDENCE (ability to decide everything apart from God -their Source) which ultimately lead to a SEVERANCE (death) from God.
The Eating of the Tree is deciding to be ones own Moral Standard (of what is good and evil) rather than God. Unfortunately, we don't even know for sure how the tree looks like nor its kind. We can't even be certain that the tree isn't figurative. Too much information is absent!
budaatum:

But unfortunately here you are claiming not to even know what the tree looks like and saying "we" as if your ignorance is some collective thing. Instead of you learning from those who seem to know more than you, you want to comfort yourself by claiming we are equally as ignorant as one another as if your laziness is contagious!
budaatum:

That said, the Bible starts off with a story of a tribe freeing themselves from slavery. Adam and Eve were slaves in the Garden of Eden and freed themselves from slavery by acquiring knowledge.
Given that interpretation of an allegory is dependent on the knowledge, experience, and bias of the interpreter, why do you seem so certain that your view is the correct or appropriate one? How do you interpret it as slavery? The owners of the myth have never interpreted it as slavery and the counterfeiters did not either, yet you seem so sure.

"In Jewish tradition, the Tree of Knowledge and the eating of its fruit represents the beginning of the mixture of good and evil together. Before that time, the two were separate, and evil had only a nebulous existence in potential. While free choice did exist before eating the fruit, evil existed as an entity separate from the human psyche, and it was not in human nature to desire it. Eating and internalizing the forbidden fruit changed this and thus was born the yetzer hara, the evil inclination.[6][7] In Rashi's notes on Genesis 3:3, the first sin came about because Eve added an additional clause to the divine command: Neither shall you touch it. By saying this, Eve added to YHWH's command and thereby came to detract from it, as it is written: Do not add to His Words (Proverbs 30:6). However, In Legends of the Jews, it was Adam who had devoutly forbidden Eve to touch the tree even though God had only mentioned the eating of the fruit.[8]
When Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge, all the animals ate from it, too [9]

In Christian tradition, consuming the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the sin committed by Adam and Eve that led to the fall of man in Genesis 3.
In Catholicism, Augustine of Hippo taught that the tree should be understood both symbolically and as a real tree – similarly to Jerusalem being both a real city and a figure of Heavenly Jerusalem.[17] Augustine underlined that the fruits of that tree were not evil by themselves, because everything that God created was good (Gen 1:12). It was disobedience of Adam and Eve, who had been told by God not to eat of the tree (Gen 2:17), that caused disorder in the creation, thus humanity inherited sin and guilt from Adam and Eve's sin.[19]"

budaatum:

It continues with another story about Moses freeing the Israelites from slavery.
In a haste to support your view, you skipped over Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc. just to jump to Moses. There is no evidence or record supporting the Moses/Exodus story, so it’s probably mythology, allegory or legend. If you don’t consider it as factual do you consider it to be myth/allegory? If it’s myth/allegory, why do you have a straightforward interpretation? I mean, why do you take it prima facie unlike the story about the Tree?


budaatum:

And it contains stories about a man called Jesus who taught people to free themselves from the slavery of ignorance, a lesson you would most definitely benefit from since you seem to be enslaved by your ignorant understanding.
His alleged moral teachings are not unique nor were they novel when he’s said to have proclaimed them, so what is so special about him? What “slavery” of ignorance was Jesus freeing them from?

budaatum:

"Love your neighbours" is not "malicious tools of foreign extremist ideologies", but a lesson taught in most decent societies.

Of course, Love your neighbors isn’t a “malicious tool of foreign extremist ideologies” because most people don’t need The Book or the deified Jewish rabbi to teach them that. Didn’t people around the world love their neighbors before they heard stories about the supernatural rabbi?
However, the book as a whole was/is a tool of subjugation, cultural destruction, imperialism, racism, and colonialism.
Not saying imperialists or colonialists depended solely on the book, but the historical depravity of Christianity/Europeans/whites was/is enabled by interpreting stories in the book as moral justification.

The crusades, destruction of the library in Alexander(along with a wealth of ancient African and Near East knowledge), the European Age of Pillaging (they call it “Discovery”), “perpetual subjugation of the Saracens, Pagans, and Savages”, demonization of indigenous cultures (Japanese leaders were wise enough to crucify the christian bastards and toss the rest back into the ocean rather than accept demonization of their own culture and essence) ……………………………….need I go on about the “malicious tool of foreign extremist ideologies?

You’ll love this last one. Trump supporters cite King David as excuse for their orange fascist. If David could be such a deplorable character and still be favored by their god, why not Trump? The Book can be used to justify anything, malevolent or benevolent.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by shadeyinka(m): 7:46am On Feb 18
Martian:



Given that interpretation of an allegory is dependent on the knowledge, experience, and bias of the interpreter, why do you seem so certain that your view is the correct or appropriate one? How do you interpret it as slavery? The owners of the myth have never interpreted it as slavery and the counterfeiters did not either, yet you seem so sure.

"In Jewish tradition, the Tree of Knowledge and the eating of its fruit represents the beginning of the mixture of good and evil together. Before that time, the two were separate, and evil had only a nebulous existence in potential. While free choice did exist before eating the fruit, evil existed as an entity separate from the human psyche, and it was not in human nature to desire it. Eating and internalizing the forbidden fruit changed this and thus was born the yetzer hara, the evil inclination.[6][7] In Rashi's notes on Genesis 3:3, the first sin came about because Eve added an additional clause to the divine command: Neither shall you touch it. By saying this, Eve added to YHWH's command and thereby came to detract from it, as it is written: Do not add to His Words (Proverbs 30:6). However, In Legends of the Jews, it was Adam who had devoutly forbidden Eve to touch the tree even though God had only mentioned the eating of the fruit.[8]
When Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge, all the animals ate from it, too [9]

In Christian tradition, consuming the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the sin committed by Adam and Eve that led to the fall of man in Genesis 3.
In Catholicism, Augustine of Hippo taught that the tree should be understood both symbolically and as a real tree – similarly to Jerusalem being both a real city and a figure of Heavenly Jerusalem.[17] Augustine underlined that the fruits of that tree were not evil by themselves, because everything that God created was good (Gen 1:12). It was disobedience of Adam and Eve, who had been told by God not to eat of the tree (Gen 2:17), that caused disorder in the creation, thus humanity inherited sin and guilt from Adam and Eve's sin.[19]"


In a haste to support your view, you skipped over Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc. just to jump to Moses. There is no evidence or record supporting the Moses/Exodus story, so it’s probably mythology, allegory or legend. If you don’t consider it as factual do you consider it to be myth/allegory? If it’s myth/allegory, why do you have a straightforward interpretation? I mean, why do you take it prima facie unlike the story about the Tree?



His alleged moral teachings are not unique nor were they novel when he’s said to have proclaimed them, so what is so special about him? What “slavery” of ignorance was Jesus freeing them from?



Of course, Love your neighbors isn’t a “malicious tool of foreign extremist ideologies” because most people don’t need The Book or the deified Jewish rabbi to teach them that. Didn’t people around the world love their neighbors before they heard stories about the supernatural rabbi?
However, the book as a whole was/is a tool of subjugation, cultural destruction, imperialism, racism, and colonialism.
Not saying imperialists or colonialists depended solely on the book, but the historical depravity of Christianity/Europeans/whites was/is enabled by interpreting stories in the book as moral justification.

The crusades, destruction of the library in Alexander(along with a wealth of ancient African and Near East knowledge), the European Age of Pillaging (they call it “Discovery”), “perpetual subjugation of the Saracens, Pagans, and Savages”, demonization of indigenous cultures (Japanese leaders were wise enough to crucify the christian bastards and toss the rest back into the ocean rather than accept demonization of their own culture and essence) ……………………………….need I go on about the “malicious tool of foreign extremist ideologies?

You’ll love this last one. Trump supporters cite King David as excuse for their orange fascist. If David could be such a deplorable character and still be favored by their god, why not Trump? The Book can be used to justify anything, malevolent or benevolent.
The book of Genesis didn't explain much about the meaning nor purpose of the Tree of the knowledge of good and Evil, we can only make some intellegent speculations given the available knowledge
1. The tree has a descriptive name involving "good" and "evil"!
2. One of the consequence was that it introduced at least one "negative" emotion in man (FEAR)
3. The tree was supposed to cause "death" in man.
4. Eating of the tree caused man to see himself as naked (powerless). Did they hide from each other or from other things?
5. It's really not too clear if the consequence of eating of the fruit caused the hardships on earth of because God cursed the earth.


Other than this, I doubt if anyone can be perfectly sure of the purpose of the Tree in the garden, hence we can only speculate.

That was why I said:
shadeyinka:

I think that the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil is an examination of choice for COMPLETE INDEPENDENCE (ability to decide everything apart from God -their Source) which ultimately lead to a SEVERANCE (death) from God.
The Eating of the Tree is deciding to be ones own Moral Standard (of what is good and evil) rather than God. Unfortunately, we don't even know for sure how the tree looks like nor its kind. We can't even be certain that the tree isn't figurative. Too much information is absent!
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by cooltola(m): 9:33am On Feb 18
It is pointless arguing with athetists.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by LordReed(m): 3:34pm On Feb 18
cooltola:
It is pointless arguing with athetists.

Mostly because you didn't have a point in the first place.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by cooltola(m): 4:13pm On Feb 18
LordReed:


Mostly because you didn't have a point in the first place.

No I do have lot of points Mister- I got no p with atheist , got friends with many of them. Since my folks are from different religions and I have atheist friends. I notice one thing, a man is going to believe what he already believed. it is pointless to argue with folks who belief system are fixed. It is waste of time and it is waste of energy. Have you met a person who still believe the earth is flat?
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by LordReed(m): 5:27pm On Feb 18
cooltola:


No I do have lot of points Mister- I got no p with atheist , got friends with many of them. Since my folks are from different religions and I have atheist friends. I notice one thing, a man is going to believe what he already believed. it is pointless to argue with folks who belief system are fixed. It is waste of time and it is waste of energy. Have you met a person who still believe the earth is flat?

If you have a point you more easily convince an atheist than a religious person. You don't have one that's why it seems pointless or it seems like an atheist "beliefs" are fixed. You as a religious person are most likely less flexible in your beliefs than an atheist.

Yes, there are people right here on Nairaland who believe the earth is flat.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by cooltola(m): 7:05pm On Feb 18
LordReed:


If you have a point you more easily convince an atheist than a religious person. You don't have one that's why it seems pointless or it seems like an atheist "beliefs" are fixed. You as a religious person are most likely less flexible in your beliefs than an atheist.

Yes, there are people right here on Nairaland who believe the earth is flat.
Everyone entitled to his or her beliefs whether is fixed or not fixed. Arguing is still pointless because the end result is meaningless. It does not put money to my pocket. I cannot make a person to change his or her belief with arguments, I rather pray for them, talk about Jesus Christ . The sooner I realize this long time ago, the better is for me. I only answer when questioned or someone is curious about my faith and want to know more about Jesus Christ. Then I will answer with what I know and by the way I am not religious.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by LordReed(m): 7:39pm On Feb 18
cooltola:

Everyone entitled to his or her belief whether is fixed or not fixed Arguing IS still pointless because the end result is meaningless. It does not put money to my pocket. I cannot make person to change his or her belief with arguments, I just pray for them, talk about Jesus Christ . The sooner I realize this long time ago, the better is for me. I only answer when questioned or someone is curious about my faith and want to know more about Jesus Christ. Then I answer with I know and by the way I am not religious.

Good for you.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 10:27pm On Feb 18
First, an apology for the length of this. I was serving a ban for rule 6 in travel so had much time to prepare my response. Consider the time it must have taken as a sign of how much respect I have for you. Please bear the following in mind as you read on. It is Gospel to me.



Martian:
Given that interpretation of an allegory is dependent on the knowledge, experience, and bias of the interpreter, why do you seem so certain that your view is the correct or appropriate one? How do you interpret it as slavery? The owners of the myth have never interpreted it as slavery and the counterfeiters did not either, yet you seem so sure.

I don't, Martian, seem so certain my view (understanding) is the correct or appropriate one, though it is the correct and appropriate one for me. Consider just the text in question. A man and woman are placed naked to work in a Garden with a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they are forbidden to eat. At some point they eat it and their eyes open and the owner of the Garden is pissed off and kicks them out of the Garden. Does that not sound like what Boko Haram is doing to people, keeping knowledge from them so they can be slaves? Its what American slave owners did, keeping knowledge away from their slaves so they would not rebel. Or are you not aware that knowledge sets one free? Yes, I am absolutely certain that if I remain ignorant and do not learn I will be a slave to those who know better than I do. Do you disagree? Would words like "subjugation, destruction of cultures, imperialism, and colonialism" not apply to me if I do as you suggest, Martian?


Martian:
In Jewish tradition, the Tree of Knowledge and the eating of its fruit represents the beginning of the mixture of good and evil together.

"In Jewish tradition" and "Christian tradition" and "Catholic tradition" would work if I had no brain inside my own head and can not read and need Jews and Catholics and Christians to interpret text for me, but I think I would be subjugated, destroyed, imperialised, and colonialised and a stupid brainless mumu slave to boot if I allowed others to brainwash me instead of using the brain inside my.own head. That same book talks about Jesus Christ who turned Jewish tradition on its head and I think I'd be stupid not to learn from him and do the same. Besides, how about Gnostic tradition, and Hermetic tradition and Kaballah tradition and the very many other ways of interpreting religious text including buda's tradition, do they not count too? Are you suggesting I allow myself to be told what to believe as if I have no brain inside my head to think and reason for myself? Do tell, what would be the point of reading a book and thinking and reasoning for myself if I use it to enslave myself in stupidity and brainwashed ignorance? By golly, after secondary school, one is not even supposed to read a Physics or Maths or any other text book without applying ones own mind to reason about what one reads, which is how one learns unless you think just knowing facts is learning (have we not been here before Martian?), so why would I stupidly do such a thing with a book that can and has been interpreted in thousands of ways by billions of people over decades and ignore my own understanding? Are you suggesting I buda should think so little of myself that when Moses is going up the mountain to see God I should wait at the bottom with Aaron and Ahibu and the 70 because I am unworthy instead of saying fuq off I'm coming up too? I can only suggest you have no idea what buda is like and laugh that you'd even think such nonsense of me! I mean, it says in the book that you should not rely on your own understanding, but if you read me carefully you'd realise I'm asking you to pluck and eat the forbidden Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and find out if it is true that you will die or if your eyes will actually open! Or perhaps you do not understand the relationship between the tree and the Word in John?


Martian:
In a haste to support your view, you skipped over Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc. just to jump to Moses. There is no evidence or record supporting the Moses/Exodus story, so it’s probably mythology, allegory or legend. If you don’t consider it as factual or legendary, do you consider it to be myth/allegory? If it’s myth/allegory, why do you have a straightforward interpretation? I mean, why do you take it prima facie unlike the story about the Tree?

I could have used the entire book to point out that it is not meant to enslave anyone but to free people from ignorance. I could even go further back to pre-Bible to its origins in Egypt to state my case, but I'm sure you are aware I am not writing a book here and therefore understand the brevity which makes me limit my examples.

And yes, it is mythology and full of allegory that has been sanitised over time and is nothing like it originally was. Even that which could be called original is not original as it was cobbled together from myths collected from all over the place. Makes me wonder why you'd think I take any of it "prima facie" as you claim. Is it because you have not bothered to read enough buda perhaps and take buda prima facie? If I take it prima facie as you claim there would be nothing like a buda tradition or interpretation, and if there is a buda tradition or interpretation then there sure can be a Martian one too, or can't there be? Do know that you are not required to accept buda's interpretation if it makes no sense to you. I am not some religious person who requires you to believe a word I write because I would rarher you not be a slave but a free user of your own mind to think and reason and understand by yourself just like buda does.

I'd state here just so you aware that I know, that many ideas in the Torah came out of Egypt and is a debased (or sanitised, depending how you wish to see it) form of Egyptian religion that had evolved over thousands of years. Those who wrote it had no idea of this fact and evidence for its origin has been edited out over time. I am however not asking you to take my word for any of this but if you care to know, go study some ancient Egyptology and it would become obvious to you.

Martian:
His alleged moral teachings are not unique nor were they novel when he’s said to have proclaimed them, so what is so special about him? What “slavery” of ignorance was Jesus freeing them from?

Say my name, Martian. It is made up of two names, buda a teacher and atum one of the oldest Egyptian Gods. Read my signature at the bottom of my posts. Click on the link in it. Note where it refers to. All teach the Golden Rule of love your neighbour, so I can't understand why you'd assume buda thinks it is novel to Christ. That said, is it not the truth that the majority of Nigerians only know it from the teachings of Christ and some from their understanding of the Quran? Is it not also true that we Nigerians have a long way to go to learn to actually practise it? And is this not because we are actually not sufficiently knowledgeable to see the benefit of loving our neighbours? Perhaps travel some and see how far some nations take love your neighbours before condemning its teaching by Christ. Some nations go so far with it that it is policy to care for you if you are sick or hungry or homeless, which we do not exactly do in Nigeria. Funny thing is those countrys have evolved past Christ as we know it, and have assimilated the teaching and abandoned the actual Christ bit. Go check most European countries if you want to know what I mean.

Martian:
However, the book as a whole was/is a tool of subjugation, destruction of cultures, imperialism, and colonialism. Not saying imperialists or colonialists wouldn’t have used whatever tools available, but the historical depravity of Christianity/Europeans was/is enabled by multiple stories in that book, which are open to interpretation.

Now, this last bit was exactly what the post you responded to was addressing, and is a view that can only be held by those who do not know their history.

It is not the Bible that is responsible for the "subjugation, destruction of cultures, imperialism, and colonialism", that you claim it is, though it has been used in that way. I mean, it is a fact that some play God in their Garden of Eden and deprive others of the Fruits of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but that same book introduces the serpent who tells you that it is not true that if you eat you will surely die, but become like us knowing the difference between Good and Evil. If you refuse to use your own brain to understand what you read, then yes, you will be a victim of "subjugation, destruction of cultures, imperialism, and colonialism" because others will prey on you. But if you eat of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, your eyes will open, you will clothe yourself, and instead of being a slave in some other person's farm, you will till you own land to produce your own food like a free person would. Perhaps see the Bible as a gun. Some kill others with guns while some hunt for food and protect themselves with guns. If I shoot you with my gun I hope you will be intelligent enough to say I killed you and not my gun killed you as you seem to have claimed with the Bible. Books do not do what you claim here, Martian. People do, and I am claiming they accuse the book in error.

I will add that it is irresponsible to claim the Bible destroys culture. If you know your history, the culture of Egypt was destroyed, as was Roman's, and Greek and Britain and just about the entire world actually. And what destroyed them all was the fact that they did not record it in a book and make it available to the masses like the Bible was. If you do not want a culture destroyed, you write it in a book, you make it available for the masses to read after teaching them how to. It is this that the peddlers of the Bible have managed to do, and personally, I admire their ingenuity. Perhaps learn from it instead of lamenting that your culture died, because I can bet my top dollar that even the Martian that you are knows more about the Bible culture than you know about the culture on Mars. It will be silly to blame the Bible for your Martian ignorance, I think.

1 Like

Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 10:33pm On Feb 18
cooltola:

I notice one thing, a man is going to believe what he already believed. it is pointless to argue with folks who belief system are fixed. It is waste of time and it is waste of energy. Have you met a person who still believe the earth is flat?

Yes. I introduce you to EMILO2.

https://www.nairaland.com/5508076/earth-flat-not-globe-part

https://www.nairaland.com/5458081/been-lied-earth-flat-not

He is an example of believers being ignorant and refusing to become as a child and abandon beliefs so he can learn as I have repeatedly mentioned here.

2 Likes

Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by cooltola(m): 12:02am On Feb 19
budaatum:


Yes. I introduce you to EMILO2.

https://www.nairaland.com/5508076/earth-flat-not-globe-part

https://www.nairaland.com/5458081/been-lied-earth-flat-not

He is an example of believers being ignorant and refusing to become as a child and abandon beliefs so he can learn as I have repeatedly mentioned here.



Na wa o, everyone is entitled to his or her beliefs.

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Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by cooltola(m): 12:18am On Feb 19
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
James 1:27 NIV

https://james.bible/james-1-27

This is what I believe

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Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 12:20am On Feb 19
cooltola:


Na wa o, everyone is entitled to his or her beliefs.

So long as they keep them to themselves, but when you shout them out for others to hear expect stupid to be called out.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by Martian(m): 1:23pm On Feb 19
budaatum:
First, an apology for the length of this. I was serving a ban for rule 6 in travel so had much time to prepare my response. Consider the time it must have taken as a sign of how much respect I have for you. Please bear the following in mind as you read on. It is Gospel to me.
I got banned too. I think they are discriminating against Martians.
budaatum:
I don't, Martian, seem so certain my view (understanding) is the correct or appropriate one, though it is the correct and appropriate one for me.
Of course your view is appropriate for you. You just seemed certain. I was mistaken.
budaatum:
Consider just the text in question. A man and woman are placed naked to work in a Garden with a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they are forbidden to eat. At some point they eat it and their eyes open and the owner of the Garden is pissed off and kicks them out of the Garden. Does that not sound like what Boko Haram is doing to people, keeping knowledge from them so they can be slaves?
I don’t think it’s a strong analogy. If Boko Haram does mean “western education is haram”, it follows that they don’t value that “tree”, but they do value another “tree”. Does it matter how much knowledge their sex slaves have?
budaatum:
Its what American slave owners did, keeping knowledge away from their slaves so they would not rebel.
They did more keep knowledge away from them and frankly I think it’s an insult to their memory to assume all the Christian whites had to do was keep knowledge away from them to keep them enslaved. The history of America is replete with the blood curdling actions of Christian whites that they actually used to keep people enslaved. The enslaved people weren’t stupid so they didn’t need to be educated or knowledgeable to recognize their miserable condition. They did rebel multiple times, but going against a society that has deluded itself into thinking melanin denotes inferiority (based on the bible) is a monumental task. There were victims of European rapaciousness, sanctimony, and outright animalistic behavior. They were also victims of African greed, myopia, and plain stupidity.
However, you’re right that they kept knowledge away from them. But they damn sure took them to church and had the bible read to them. Slave obey your earthly master, says the good book.
budaatum:
Or are you not aware that knowledge sets one free? Yes, I am absolutely certain that if I remain ignorant and do not learn I will be a slave to those who know better than I do.
Not arguing that point.
budaatum:
Do you disagree? Would words like "subjugation, destruction of cultures, imperialism, and colonialism" not apply to me if I do as you suggest, Martian?
Subjugation does not apply to you (most of the time)because you obviously don’t display mental chains like some (too many) on this site. However, the others apply to and I posit that they are the reasons for a lot of strife on the continent and other places.
budaatum:
"In Jewish tradition" and "Christian tradition" and "Catholic tradition" would work if I had no brain inside my own head and can not read and need Jews and Catholics and Christians to interpret text for me, but I think I would be subjugated, destroyed, imperialised, and colonialised and a stupid brainless mumu slave to boot if I allowed others to brainwash me instead of using the brain inside my own head.
Shout it from the mountain top.
budaatum:
That same book talks about Jesus Christ who turned Jewish tradition on its head and I think I'd be stupid not to learn from him and do the same.
The book claims some dude named Jesus turned Jewish tradition on its head, but considering the fact that he is not recognized in Judaism, I will call BS on this one. The only thing his story succeeded in doing for European Jews was getting them killed. It’s not all doom and gloom for them though because the state of Israel currently uses white evangelicals’ belief to curry favor from the U.S. Government while they run a colonialist apartheid regime in Palestine. I digress.
budaatum:
Besides, how about Gnostic tradition, and Hermetic tradition and Kaballah tradition and the very many other ways of interpreting religious text including buda's tradition, do they not count too?
I prefer not to be prolix so I left them out. They have their views you have yours.
budaatum:
Are you suggesting I allow myself to be told what to believe as if I have no brain inside my head to think and reason for myself? Do tell, what would be the point of reading a book and thinking and reasoning for myself if I use it to enslave myself in stupidity and brainwashed ignorance? By golly, after secondary school, one is not even supposed to read a Physics or Maths or any other text book without applying ones own mind to reason about what one reads, which is how one learns unless you think just knowing facts is learning (have we not been here before Martian?), so why would I stupidly do such a thing with a book that can and has been interpreted in thousands of ways by billions of people over decades and ignore my own understanding? Are you suggesting I buda should think so little of myself that when Moses is going up the mountain to see God I should wait at the bottom with Aaron and Ahibu and the 70 because I am unworthy instead of saying fuq off I'm coming up too? I can only suggest you have no idea what buda is like and laugh that you'd even think such nonsense of me! I mean, it says in the book that you should not rely on your own understanding, but if you read me carefully you'd realise I'm asking you to pluck and eat the forbidden Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and find out if it is true that you will die or if your eyes will actually open! Or perhaps you do not understand the relationship between the tree and the Word in John?
Prolix and adds nothing to the discussion.
budaatum:
I'd state here just so you aware that I know, that many ideas in the Torah came out of Egypt and is a debased (or sanitised, depending how you wish to see it) form of Egyptian religion that had evolved over thousands of years. Those who wrote it had no idea of this fact and evidence for its origin has been edited out over time. I am however not asking you to take my word for any of this but if you care to know, go study some ancient Egyptology and it would become obvious to you.
Egypt and Mesopotamia.
You’re not the only one cursed with Knowledge – Thanos
budaatum:
Say my name, Martian.
No, you’re not a member of Destiny’s Child.
budaatum:
It is made up of two names, buda a teacher and atum one of the oldest Egyptian Gods.
I resist the urge to be sarcastic
budaatum:
Read my signature at the bottom of my posts. Click on the link in it. Note where it refers to. All teach the Golden Rule of love your neighbour, so I can't understand why you'd assume buda thinks it is novel to Christ.

That’s a strawman because I didn’t assume it’s novel to Christ. You used it as support for the bible not being a tool of oppression. I said what’s special about him since his alleged teachings were not novel nor unique. What if the Gospels are similar to the Socratic problem? We know the writers and the creators of the new testament and Christian doctrine were well versed in Greek philosophy and if they adapted the logos, they could have also adapted the Plato/Socrates approach. What if someone put some or most of these teachings into his mouth?
budaatum:
That said, is it not the truth that the majority of Nigerians only know it from the teachings of Christ and some from their understanding of the Quran?
That’s a big claim. What you’re implying is that people in Nigeria never had cultures that promoted and valued goodwill towards their neighbors. You’re implying that without the bible and quran, Nigerians wouldn’t know to love their neighbors. Sounds like a white supremacist view.
Yoruba legend says Oduduwa and co migrated to the area of present day Nigeria between 800 C.E and 1000 C.E. Are you implying these people had/have no culture that include the value “love thy neighbor”? If many Nigerians only have the bible and quran now, it’s because the whites and arabs did a wonderful job making Nigerians hate the parts of their cultures they didn’t loot or destroy.
budaatum:
Is it not also true that we Nigerians have a long way to go to learn to actually practise it? And is this not because we are actually not sufficiently knowledgeable to see the benefit of loving our neighbours? Perhaps travel some and see how far some nations take love your neighbours before condemning its teaching by Christ. Some nations go so far with it that it is policy to care for you if you are sick or hungry or homeless, which we do not exactly do in Nigeria.
Social safety net is the province of functional governments. You know very well that Nigeria’s disreputable governance is due to a lot factors and not just lack of Knowledge. Cite a specific example and I’ll tell you why their government is functional and their history versus Nigeria’s. Funny thing is that in my neck of the woods, it’s the Christians who argue against your idea of love thy neighbor. It seems Jesus’ teaching are often not efficacious. By the way, I am not condemning its teaching by Mr. Christ.

budaatum:
Funny thing is those countrys have evolved past Christ as we know it, and have assimilated the teaching and abandoned the actual Christ bit. Go check most European countries if you want to know what I mean.
You have to specific because Europe is a big continent with different levels of social services and culture in different countries. Furthermore, you can’t be naïve to think social safety nets are primarily due to Christ’s teaching. E.g. Norway has a good social safety net because they are a mostly homogenous country with Natural Resources that are well managed and an efficient government. Furthermore, egalitarian values that inspire these social safety nets are not traditional christian values. Nigeria will NEVER be egalitarian because the people are too dependent on barbaric values found in the ancient myths in the bible and the quran.
budaatum:
Now, this last bit was exactly what the post you responded to was addressing, and is a view that can only be held by those who do not know their history. It is not the Bible that is responsible for the "subjugation, destruction of cultures, imperialism, and colonialism", that you claim it is, though it has been used in that way.
A tool can have multiple uses. Priests, their sanctimonious superstitions, and their bibles were spokes in the wheels of "subjugation, destruction of cultures, imperialism, and colonialism”
budaatum:
I mean, it is a fact that some play God in their Garden of Eden and deprive others of the Fruits of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but that same book introduces the serpent who tells you that it is not true that if you eat you will surely die, but become like us knowing the difference between Good and Evil.
I don’t want to crawl further into the hole of interpreting talking snakes and trees. Don’t hold no value to me.
budaatum:
If you refuse to use your own brain to understand what you read, then yes, you will be a victim of "subjugation, destruction of cultures, imperialism, and colonialism" because others will prey on you.
You’re already a victim. You live in country artificially created by colonialists. Your leaders steal your country’s wealth and hide it in the imperialists’ countries. You’re partial to their religious teachings. You cite no indigenous cultures and claim Nigerians wouldn’t know to practice goodwill if they didn’t read it in the bible or koran. You tell me to look at European countries as if they are the epitome of humanity while ignoring their bloody history. I beseech you to look at Japan.
budaatum:
But if you eat of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, your eyes will open, you will clothe yourself, and instead of being a slave in some other person's farm, you will till you own land to produce your own food like a free person would.
I don’t need to eat from their tree. I’m on the everlasting path of illumination and the path is bountiful with game and grain. I’m freer than you can fathom.
budaatum:
Perhaps see the Bible as a gun. Some kill others with guns while some hunt for food and protect themselves with guns. If I shoot you with my gun I hope you will be intelligent enough to say I killed you and not my gun killed you as you seem to have claimed with the Bible. Books do not do what you claim here, Martian. People do, and I am claiming they accuse the book in error.
I never claimed the book did anything. I said those benevolent Christians do a wonderful/depraved job with it. When people claim “the bible said…..”, I think to myself, “the bible needs to STFU!! Weird talking book!!!”.
budaatum:
I will add that it is irresponsible to claim the Bible destroys culture.
One more time. It doesn’t. The people who destroyed multiple cultures used it.
budaatum:
If you know your history, the culture of Egypt was destroyed, as was Roman's, and Greek and Britain and just about the entire world actually. And what destroyed them all was the fact that they did not record it in a book and make it available to the masses like the Bible was.
Recordkeeping is not the reason for their destruction. Besides, vestiges of Rome remain in the catholic church and their legacy lives with the bible and other writings, while Ancient Greece’s legacy is alive and well due to writings. Britain still exists so I don’t know what you mean.
budaatum:
If you do not want a culture destroyed, you write it in a book, you make it available for the masses to read after teaching them how to. It is this that the peddlers of the Bible have managed to do, and personally, I admire their ingenuity.
The Bible is not the peddlers’ culture but at least they painted the characters in their own image and assimilated the useful parts while Africans and other subjugated peoples hang on to the dregs. As you know, it’s an amalgamation of Jewish mythology and graeco-roman inventions (oral history and extraordinary claims with no support) and letters. It was created by Rome as the reference book for the new state religion of the roman empire that they spread to their western European subjects. The Jews don’t peddle their myth, but the European converts/subjects of the Romans later used it to as one of their tools of expansion and cultural pillaging. Don’t worry, gears are turning while you’re admiring your bible peddlers on the well-adorned pedestals you’ve placed them on.
budaatum:
Perhaps learn from it instead of lamenting that your culture died, because I can bet my top dollar that even the Martian that you are knows more about the Bible culture than you know about the culture on Mars. It will be silly to blame the Bible for your Martian ignorance, I think.
That’s because I’m on exile. I told them talking apes lived on the blue planet and some them tried to vaporize me and called me an infernal liar. I can’t wait to go back and tell them the stupid shit the apes believe. A lot of them think there is a thing called god who created existence, who is very apelike and cares about them………………….
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 1:40pm On Feb 19
Martian:

I got banned too. I think they are discriminating against Martians.

They must not like Martians and buda.

Martian:
That’s a big claim. What you’re implying is that people in Nigeria never had cultures that promoted and valued goodwill towards their neighbors. You’re implying that without the bible and quran, Nigerians wouldn’t know to love their neighbors. Sounds like a white supremacist view.

I never made the claim you accuse me of here, Martian. My claim is that we do not seem to teach it like it is taught in some religions. You can prove me wrong however by providing just one teaching from your tribe that teaches it.

As for all the rest. I'm going to not do a to and fro trying to convince you the Bible has done more Good than the evil you claim it did. If you know the history of the world pre-Bible, and understand how the education systems around most of the world derive from it, I would not even need to.

Perhaps consider separating an improper understanding of the book from a progressive understanding and it might make sense to you.

Ref: https://www.nairaland.com/6404876/waging-bet-against-impossible-statistical/7#99219047
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by Martian(m): 1:53pm On Feb 19
budaatum:


I never made the claim you accuse me of here, Martian. My claim is that we do not seem to teach it like it is taught in some religions. You can prove me wrong however by providing just one teaching from your tribe that teaches it.

Yoruba - Iwa Pele. Being of good character includes loving thy neighbor.
It takes a village to raise a child.
Ancient Egypt - If person fails to help an injured person who later dies, he has committed a crime.
Ancient Egypt - If a person is found murdered in a province and the perpetrator is not found, the province was monetarily punished.

budaatum:
As for all the rest. I'm going to not do a to and fro trying to convince you the Bible has done more Good than the evil you claim it did. If you know the history of the world pre-Bible, and understand how the education systems around most of the world derive from it, I would not even need to.

No, the education system evolved from the natural progression of knowledge accumulation over time. Giving too much credence to the bible is similar to some western whites who act as if they created fire when they barely got the torch of civilization.

budaatum:
Perhaps consider separating an improper understanding of the book from a progressive understanding and it might make sense to you.

What is a progressive understanding of the amalgamation of Jewish scriptures and Graeco Roman superstitious inventions?
What if I say you don't properly understand the book until you've read the Mormon Bible, which is an amalgamation of Jewish scriptures, Graeco Roman superstitious inventions, and "revelations" of an American white?
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 2:43pm On Feb 19
Martian:

Yoruba - Iwa Pele. Being of good character includes loving thy neighbor.
Ancient Egypt - If person fails to help an injured person who later dies, he has committed a crime.
Ancient Egypt - If a person is found murdered in a province and the perpetrator is not found, the province was monetarily punished.
It's not that it is not taught at all, Martian. Just that it is better taught in Christianity than Iwa Pẹlẹ seems to have done. Prior to the more unifying religions that straddled tribe and culture you were not neighbour if you spoke a different language or worshipped a different God.

And for your information, the Bible evolved out of Ancient Egyptian religion so we can't exactly claim the Bible killed it.

Martian:
No, the education system evolved from the natural progression of knowledge accumulation over time. Giving to much credence to the bible is similar to some western whites who act as if they created fire when they barely got the torch of civilization.
You will give no credence to the mass availability of books that was promoted through Christianity and Islam. To you, it was just a natural progression and no one sacrificed so you could be educated. I bet you would not even give credence to the Bible for you writing in English. Is that not a natural progression too, Martian?

Martian:
What is a progressive understanding of the amalgamation of Jewish scriptures and Graeco Roman superstitious inventions?
A progressive understanding will be one that takes that which precedes the current understanding into consideration in order to understand the present. Are you aware we read Plato and Aristotle and Homer and Ancient Egyptian texts? Would your understanding of the Bible not be severely limited if you do not know of such texts?

Martian:
What if I say you don't properly understand the book until you've read the Mormon Bible, which is an amalgamation of Jewish scriptures, Graeco Roman superstitious inventions, and "revelations" of an American white?
You may say so but I'd have to assume you are being Martian and I don't have a clue what you mean since the Mormon Bible is not required for understanding the Holy Bible as such.

I do insist your opinion is incorrect, but then I might be wrong. Please respond in your local language so I can be certain you have not been subjugated, destroyed of cultures, imperialised, and colonialised by the King James Version that is responsible for the current language you post in please. Nothing would prove your point better.


P.s. Please know that you are I are talking cross purposed here. You seem to think that to read the Bible is to believe as if that is the purpose of reading, and until we clarify this point you and I will keep coming stuck at this point and will not progress. We are in 2021. I put it to you that if you live in a society that has been religionised like ours has and do not read the religious texts, you will be subjugated, destroyed of cultures, imperialised, and colonialised and enslaved, and only by reading them can you be free. Consider.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by Martian(m): 4:44pm On Feb 19
budaatum:

It's not that it is not taught at all, Martian. Just that it is better taught in Christianity than Iwa Pẹlẹ seems to have done.
That’s because a subjugated and myopic peoples abandon their virtue for fool’s gold. It’s better taught in Christianity because the culture is not as valued as Christianity, so it’s virtues take a back seat.
budaatum:

Prior to the more unifying religions that straddled tribe and culture you were not neighbour if you spoke a different language or worshipped a different God.
That’s a lie. Before the Europeans spread their disease to Africa, they practiced religious madness on themselves and they were all members of the so called unifying religion. The unifying religions unified at the point of a sword. Religion may be able to prevent conflict, but it’s a very fertile source of conflicts
Look up European warsofreligion or Uthman Dan Fodio’s goal of “dipping the sword of islam in the ocean”
budaatum:

And for your information, the Bible evolved out of Ancient Egyptian religion so we can't exactly claim the Bible killed it.

Egypt and Mesopotamia.

budaatum:

You will give no credence to the mass availability of books that was promoted through Christianity and Islam. To you, it was just a natural progression and no one sacrificed so you could be educated.
The Christians and Muslims were and are more concerned about spreading their superstitions rather than knowledge. Crediting them with the mass availability of books is myopic. Part of the natural progression that made books widely available is the invention of the printing press by Gutenberg (probably the greatest invention in human history because it made the written word available to the masses). The mass availability of books is not because of Christianity and Islam. Christianity and Islam are just one of the beneficiaries of the invention of the printing press. Before the printing press made the bible widely available, the Graeco-Egyptians had to commission the translation of the Hebrew scriptures amongst others, the roman empire had to adopt it, etc. Before the Christians and the Muslim had a collection of various books, somebody had to write them.
Before all of the above, writing and glyphs had to be invented and had to evolve…………… Natural progression
budaatum:

I bet you would not even give credence to the Bible for you writing in English. Is that not a natural progression too, Martian?
Of course I don’t give credence to the bible for writing in English. I write in English because I grew up in a former British colony and reside in a former British Colony. It was for their own benefit that English be spoken for primarily trade reasons and you don’t need the bible to learn English.


budaatum:

A progressive understanding will be one that takes that which precedes the current understanding into consideration in order to understand the present. Are you aware we read Plato and Aristotle and Homer and Ancient Egyptian texts? Would your understanding of the Bible not be severely limited if you do not know of such texts?
I know of Ancient Egypt’s influence on the Greeks. I also know of the Phoenicians influence on the Greeks. I understand what the bible is, it's history, and influences because it's a prominent part of the last 2000 years of human history.
Are you aware of how certain ancient heroes’ “souls” were supposed to live on after their death and how these souls evolved over time to be “Gods”? What if I told you Yahweh was a warlord/leader of an ancient tribe who evolved into the national god of Israel and evolved to the national god of the Roman Empire and the Christian god of the Universe? Some say Homer’s Odyssey was an Egyptian invention adapted for a Greek audience.
Do you know that Aristotle argued that the master and slave relationship was “natural order”?
That some are marked out for subjection, others for rule?
That “Saint” Thomas Aquinas built on Aristotle’s argument to assert that the slave was the physical instrument of his owner?
That this condition allowed a slave owner to claim everything his or her slaves possessed and produced, including their children?
That “Saint” Aquinas attributed the condition of slavery to sin and the inevitable conditions of a sinful world?
That other theologians before and during the Renaissance emphasized Aristotle's belief in a natural order, but asserted that some men were slaves by their very nature?
That based on this evolving theology, European Christians initially saw non-Christians as "natural slaves."?
That Europeans came to primarily associate Africans with the institution of slavery?
That to explain this “racial” slavery, sixteenth and seventeenth century theologians merged Aristotle's theory of “natural slaves" with the biblical Curse of Ham?
That according to this interpretation, Africans are the descendants of Ham and Canaan, who Noah cursed into slavery for Ham's transgressions (Ham is Noah's son and Canaan's father)

budaatum:

You may say so but I'd have to assume you are being Martian and I don't have a clue what you mean since the Mormon Bible is not required for understanding the Holy Bible as such.
Why isn’t the Mormon bible required? It continues the story of Jesus and his sojourn on the American continent. Do you have any reason to doubt the veracity of the Mormon Bible? The new testament is supposed to be a continuation of the Jewish scriptures and I don’t see you doubting that? Why do you accept and quote Paul and co’s revelations and not Joseph Smith’s? Why dismiss it if you read haven’t read it? It may contain some of those “profound” quotes you’re fond of.

budaatum:

I do insist your opinion is incorrect, but then I might be wrong. Please respond in your local language so I can be certain you have not been subjugated, destroyed of cultures, imperialised, and colonialised by the King James Version that is responsible for the current language you post in please. Nothing would prove your point better.
Wo Soke. I already answered.

budaatum:

P.s. Please know that you are I are talking cross purposed here. You seem to think that to read the Bible is to believe as if that is the purpose of reading, and until we clarify this point you and I will keep coming stuck at this point and will not progress.
Of course the purpose isn’t to believe. You can do it for leisure or research.
Believing/Disbelieving is dependent on the knowledge base of the reader. Once upon a time, people thought (and some still do) that Genesis 1:1 is fact, and as knowledge increased Genesis 1:1 and the rest of the bible became “mythology, allegory, folk lore, legend, some history, and lots of bullshit”.
budaatum:

We are in 2021. I put it to you that if you live in a society that has been religionised like ours has and do not read the religious texts, you will be subjugated, destroyed of cultures, imperialised, and colonialised and enslaved, and only by reading them can you be free. Consider.
Wasting your time constantly studying foreign religious texts is a symptom of subjugation. A religionised society is already subjugated society. A healthy society is one that sequesters religion to its appropriate sphere. A religionised community is a never ending source of gullible and vicious simpletons (Trump supporters). Of course

1 Like

Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by HellVictorinho(m): 5:50pm On Feb 19
Martian:

That’s because a subjugated and myopic peoples abandon their virtue for fool’s gold. It’s better taught in Christianity because the culture is not as valued as Christianity, so it’s virtues take a back seat.

That’s a lie. Before the Europeans spread their disease to Africa, they practiced religious madness on themselves and they were all members of the so called unifying religion. The unifying religions unified at the point of a sword. Religion may be able to prevent conflict, but it’s a very fertile source of conflicts
Look up European warsofreligion or Uthman Dan Fodio’s goal of “dipping the sword of islam in the ocean”


Egypt and Mesopotamia.


The Christians and Muslims were and are more concerned about spreading their superstitions rather than knowledge. Crediting them with the mass availability of books is myopic. Part of the natural progression that made books widely available is the invention of the printing press by Gutenberg (probably the greatest invention in human history because it made the written word available to the masses). The mass availability of books is not because of Christianity and Islam. Christianity and Islam are just one of the beneficiaries of the invention of the printing press. Before the printing press made the bible widely available, the Graeco-Egyptians had to commission the translation of the Hebrew scriptures amongst others, the roman empire had to adopt it, etc. Before the Christians and the Muslim had a collection of various books, somebody had to write them.
Before all of the above, writing and glyphs had to be invented and had to evolve…………… Natural progression

Of course I don’t give credence to the bible for writing in English. I write in English because I grew up in a former British colony and reside in a former British Colony. It was for their own benefit that English be spoken for primarily trade reasons and you don’t need the bible to learn English.



I know of Ancient Egypt’s influence on the Greeks. I also know of the Phoenicians influence on the Greeks. I understand what the bible is, it's history, and influences because it's a prominent part of the last 2000 years of human history.
Are you aware of how certain ancient heroes’ “souls” were supposed to live on after their death and how these souls evolved over time to be “Gods”? What if I told you Yahweh was a warlord/leader of an ancient tribe who evolved into the national god of Israel and evolved to the national god of the Roman Empire and the Christian god of the Universe? Some say Homer’s Odyssey was an Egyptian invention adapted for a Greek audience.
Do you know that Aristotle argued that the master and slave relationship was “natural order”?
That some are marked out for subjection, others for rule?
That “Saint” Thomas Aquinas built on Aristotle’s argument to assert that the slave was the physical instrument of his owner?
That this condition allowed a slave owner to claim everything his or her slaves possessed and produced, including their children?
That “Saint” Aquinas attributed the condition of slavery to sin and the inevitable conditions of a sinful world?
That other theologians before and during the Renaissance emphasized Aristotle's belief in a natural order, but asserted that some men were slaves by their very nature?
That based on this evolving theology, European Christians initially saw non-Christians as "natural slaves."?
That Europeans came to primarily associate Africans with the institution of slavery?
That to explain this “racial” slavery, sixteenth and seventeenth century theologians merged Aristotle's theory of “natural slaves" with the biblical Curse of Ham?
That according to this interpretation, Africans are the descendants of Ham and Canaan, who Noah cursed into slavery for Ham's transgressions (Ham is Noah's son and Canaan's father)


Why isn’t the Mormon bible required? It continues the story of Jesus and his sojourn on the American continent. Do you have any reason to doubt the veracity of the Mormon Bible? The new testament is supposed to be a continuation of the Jewish scriptures and I don’t see you doubting that? Why do you accept and quote Paul and co’s revelations and not Joseph Smith’s? Why dismiss it if you read haven’t read it? It may contain some of those “profound” quotes you’re fond of.


Wo Soke. I already answered.


Of course the purpose isn’t to believe. You can do it for leisure or research.
Believing/Disbelieving is dependent on the knowledge base of the reader. Once upon a time, people thought (and some still do) that Genesis 1:1 is fact, and as knowledge increased Genesis 1:1 and the rest of the bible became “mythology, allegory, folk lore, legend, some history, and lots of bullshit”.

Wasting your time constantly studying foreign religious texts is a symptom of subjugation. A religionised society is already subjugated society. A healthy society is one that sequesters religion to its appropriate sphere. A religionised community is a never ending source of gullible and vicious simpletons (Trump supporters). Of course

Correct.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 6:02pm On Feb 19
Martian:

That’s because a subjugated and myopic peoples abandon their virtue for fool’s gold. It’s better taught in Christianity because the culture is not as valued as Christianity, so it’s virtues take a back seat.

Are you claiming you write in English because you are myopic, Martian, and do not value your culture so you let it take a back seat?

Martian:
That’s a lie. Before the Europeans spread their disease to Africa, they practiced religious madness on themselves and they were all members of the so called unifying religion.

The unifying religions unified at the point of a sword. Religion may be able to prevent conflict, but it’s a very fertile source of conflicts
Look up European warsofreligion or Uthman Dan Fodio’s goal of “dipping the sword of islam in the ocean”
So, your learning taught you that Europeans practised a unified religion?

Please tell me if you think Odin and Zeus and Jupiter were the same God please, and explain how even the Greek States worshipped various diverse Gods that are written to have wared against each other, or tell me the world began with Uthman Dan Fodio in 1754?

Martian:
The Christians and Muslims were and are more concerned about spreading their superstitions rather than knowledge.
That may well be the case but we are not talking about Christians and Muslims, but about the Bible and the Quran which both do not spread what you claim unless you are braindead and refuse to apply your own mind to what you read.

Martian:
Of course I don’t give credence to the bible for writing in English. I write in English because I grew up in a former British colony and reside in a former British Colony. It was for their own benefit that English be spoken for primarily trade reasons and you don’t need the bible to learn English.
You have obviously not bothered to educate yourself to know that English itself relied heavily on the translation of the Bible. Please find a book on the History of the King James Version to disabuse yourself of your lack of knowledge.

Martian:
Why isn’t the Mormon bible required? It continues the story of Jesus and his sojourn on the American continent. Do you have any reason to doubt the veracity of the Mormon Bible? The new testament is supposed to be a continuation of the Jewish scriptures and I don’t see you doubting that? Why do you accept and quote Paul and co’s revelations and not Joseph Smith’s? Why dismiss it if you read haven’t read it? It may contain some of those “profound” quotes you’re fond of.
Same reason I do not quote Buddha despite it containing some profounder quotes. It would be like speaking Latin to Arabic speakers.

You do not know if I doubt or not so stop making crap up about me and believing it like its true please!

Martian:
Wasting your time constantly studying foreign religious texts is a symptom of subjugation.
This is the religious section. Are you subjugated, Martian? Do you agree that constantly discussing foreign religions is a symptom of your subjugation?
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by Martian(m): 7:12pm On Feb 19
budaatum:

Are you claiming you write in English because you are myopic, Martian, and do not value your culture so you let it take a back seat?

Lingua Franca
budaatum:

So, your learning taught you that Europeans practised a unified religion?
If you had looked up European wars of religion you would have seen the refutation of your “unifying relgion”. Europeans fought each other before and after the “unifying” religion.

budaatum:

Please tell me if you think Odin and Zeus and Jupiter were the same God please, and explain how even the Greek States worshipped various diverse Gods that are written to have wared against each other, or tell me the world began with Uthman Dan Fodio in 1754?
The warring gods were possibly mortals whose struggles morphed to stuff of mythology. Look up the Parian Chronicles as see mention of the dispute between Mars and Neptune who appear to be mortal men. Important men but mortal. This was before the “god” Mars was worshipped.
I cited Uthman Dan Fodio to refute you “unifying” religion claim.


budaatum:

That may well be the case but we are not talking about Christians and Muslims, but about the Bible and the Quran which both do not spread what you claim unless you are braindead and refuse to apply your own mind to what you read.
Lol. I may be braindead but who else would disseminate bibles and Qurans if not Christians and muslims? Yes, superstitions is what they spread. They contain wisdom too, but a broken clock is right at least two times a day.


budaatum:

have obviously not bothered to educate yourself to know that English itself relied heavily on the translation of the Bible. Please find a book on the History of the King James Version to disabuse yourself of your lack of knowledge.
English “Relied heavily” on the bible is part of the natural progression of the language. The fact that it influenced the language so much is due to the religious zeitgeist of that era. So what, it wasn’t/isn’t the only influence of the language. Literal translation of the book brought Hebrew phrases into English speech and was made popular because most of the English were Christians then.
budaatum:

Same reason I do not quote Buddha despite it containing some profounder quotes. It would be like speaking Latin to Arabic speakers. You do not know if I doubt or not so stop making crap up about me and believing it like its true please
You are not a doubter. You are a believer who “understands”. C’mon son, quote the Buddha and illuminate the people. You never know, Arabic speakers may be thirsting for Latin.
budaatum:

This is the religious section. Are you subjugated, Martian? Do you agree that constantly discussing foreign religions is a symptom of your subjugation?

Reading the religion section is entertaining and sometimes something is posted that leads to a path of discovery. This is just one of the sites I go to. The subjugation bit rubbed you a wrong way. lmao
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 7:41pm On Feb 19
Martian:

If you had looked up European wars of religion you would have seen the refutation of your “unifying relgion”. Europeans fought each other before and after the “unifying” religion.
Guess you do not know how ununified Europe was and do not know how unified Europe is today, or that Rome was not built in a day. Do you even know ordinary Britain had 7 ununified kingdoms at one time until Christianity unified them?

Martian:

The warring gods were possibly mortals whose struggles morphed to stuff of mythology. Look up the Parian Chronicles as see mention of the dispute between Mars and Neptune who appear to be mortal men.
Do not make me insult you Martian! If you are not aware that the planets Mars and Neptune were anthropomorphized the same way Yorubas did with Ogun the God of Iron just say so and we can educate you!

Martian:

Lol. I may be braindead but who else would disseminate bibles and Qurans if not Christians and muslims? Yes, superstitions is what they spread. They contain wisdom too, but a broken clock is right at least two times a day.
People who want to open your eyes, Martian. And you are not supposed to stupidly believe the silly superstitions in them but dispute that which is not true so that you may learn.

Martian:
English “Relied heavily” on the bible is part of the natural progression of the language.
So, English is a natural progression for a Yoruba person? How about a Chinese person, and a Spaniard? Is English their natural progression too?

Martian:
You are not a doubter. You are a believer who “understands”. C’mon son, quote the Buddha and illuminate the people.

And yet I told you this:



Which clearly states Buddha at the bottom, yet you call me a believer and ask me to quote Buddha that seems to have completely gone straight over your head!

You will forgive me, but if you struggle this much with Christianity I do not think you can possibly grasp the complexity of Buddhism.

Martian:
The subjugation bit rubbed you a wrong way. lmao
No, Martian. It did not rub me "a wrong way". I am just amused that you blame your subjugation on a book you do not understand.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by Martian(m): 7:53pm On Feb 19
budaatum:

Guess you do not know how ununified Europe was and do not know how unified Europe is today, or that Rome was not built in a day. Do you even know ordinary Britain had 7 ununified kingdoms at one time until Christianity unified them?


Do not make me insult you Martian! If you are not aware that the planets Mars and Neptune were anthropomorphized the same way Yorubas did with Ogun the God of Iron just say so and we can educate you!


People who want to open your eyes, Martian. And you are not supposed to stupidly believe the silly superstitions in them but dispute that which is not true so that you may learn.


So, English is a natural progression for a Yoruba person? How about a Chinese person, and a Spaniard? Is English their natural progression too?



And yet I told you this:



Which clearly states Buddha at the bottom, yet you call me a believer and ask me to quote Buddha that seems to have completely gone straight over your head!

You will forgive me, but if you struggle this much with Christianity I do not think you can possibly grasp the complexity of Buddhism.


No, Martian. It did not rub me "a wrong way". I am just amused that you blame your subjugation on a book you do not understand.

When you look up the stuff I told you to look up, you will stop being bumptiously ignorant. Sayonara
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 7:59pm On Feb 19
Martian:


When you look up the stuff I told you to look up, you will stop being bumptiously ignorant. Sayonara

You wish to think I need you to tell me to look up what I am well versed in when you can't even understand what is in front of your eyes.

Yes Martian, Sayanora. Until you find it in you to quote me again only to find you know very little about Earth and the book you deride but never read.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 12:01am On Feb 20
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 11:08am On Feb 20
Amujale and Martian

Please know that I am beginning to feel that you both might be correct about people being enslaved and subjugated.

Evidence for your claim in this thread.

I however think it is Christianity that does the enslaving and subjugating and not the book itself.

I will apologise if I find otherwise.

budaatum

1 Like

Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by BassReeves: 1:33am On Feb 21
budaatum:
Amujale and Martian

Please know that I am beginning to feel that you both might be correct about people being enslaved and subjugated.

Evidence for your claim in this thread.

I however think it is Christianity that does the enslaving and subjugating and not the book itself.


I will apologise if I find otherwise.

budaatum
What a turncoat and court jester you turn out to be. Are you licensed?

Stay real. Stay loyal or stay away from me. In life the turncoat, is never trustworthy by either side. The one that he betrayed will have disgust for him and the other that benefited from his treachery will distrust him.
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by budaatum: 2:31am On Feb 21
BassReeves:
What a turncoat and court jester you turn out to be. Are you licensed?

Stay real. Stay loyal or stay away from me. In life the turncoat, is never trustworthy by either side. The one that he betrayed will have disgust for him and the other that benefited from his treachery will distrust him.
Stay away from you? Like I said, you are funny. You say stay away from you and expect that is how it works as if it is not the truth that you must eat of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil so that when you say "stay away from you", and if it were true that I am as you claim, I will depart from you and you will be ministered to by angels. But see, buda is still here.

No, Reeves. buda will not be loyal to you, for it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and God only shall you serve.’”

Let us now see who does the departing.

Ref: https://www.nairaland.com/6404876/waging-bet-against-impossible-statistical/8#99270106
Re: The Non-Christian Chatbox ( sticky ) by BassReeves: 9:26am On Feb 21
budaatum:
Stay away from you? Like I said, you are funny.
The court jester, funnier than me, is asking if to stay away from me

budaatum:
You say stay away from you and expect that is how it works as if it is not the truth that you must eat of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil so that when you say "stay away from you", and if it were true that I am as you claim, I will depart from you and you will be ministered to by angels. But see, buda is still here.

No, Reeves. buda will not be loyal to you
There is no shadow of doubt, you are a turncoat. this coming from, seeing your notable flop, of you, on the verge of changing your opinion and went over to the opposite party and, after crossing 'enemy' lines, you fired shot at your 'comrade', from there.

The turncoat, appears not a turncoat, for he or she, speaks in the accents familiar to his or her victims, works secretly, and in the middle of the night to do treason, from within.

Duh! Stay real, stay loyal is not soliciting your loyalty to me, stop the self importance feeling, but, it means, stay loyal to your real nature. Quit the treachery, stop sneaking behind the curtain, and coming in here to make insinuations to two others, behind posters on the other thread there backs.

budaatum:
for it is written,
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God and God only shall you serve.’

Let us now see who does the departing.

Ref: https://www.nairaland.com/6404876/waging-bet-against-impossible-statistical/8#99270106
You talk too much gathering fluff. Why do you have to be so talkative and not making sense while at it?

You'll tire out first because I will drive you up the wall with cold blunt incontrovertible facts

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