striktlymi:

Quite on the contrary, my post addressed your questions.


The first is dependent on what you call hell. If you and I have the same meaning for hell then all who did good before Christ experienced hell, though temporarily. This addresses your first question.

The second states that good works are necessary to attain salvation, even tough it would need to be made whole by Christ's sacrifice. This addresses your second question.

macof: ok, lemme get this straight
1. All who did good before christ went to Hell? eg. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Samuel, David, Elisha, Isaiah etc.

macof:
2. when Jesus died, He went to hell to free them?

macof:
3. U must believe in Jesus and live a good/righteous life? pls I want a clear answer, YES/NO is PREFERABLE

striktlymi:

Yes, if my meaning of Hell is the same as yours.



Yes, if my meaning of Hell is the same as yours.



Yes, for 'Christians'.

macof: so upon all the blesses and godliness of all those people they still went to hell? let a Jew read ur comment first.

striktlymi:

Goes to show that my meaning of hell and yours aint the same.

striktlymi:

No!!!

Not everyone who is not a Christian will go to hell. Some Muslims will definitely make heaven.

macof: which one is meaning of hell isn't the same Hell is Hell no two hells and there's nothing to hell apart from being a torture house full of unquenchable fire... isn't that what Abrahamic religions(which inverted hell) says??

macof: so upon all the blesses and godliness of all those people they still went to hell? let a Jew read ur comment first.

idnoble135: Ok, i read your reply where you insisted that those who dont know Christ can go to heaven provided they do love God and love their neighbours. The first question is which God would they love? There are gods and there is God. How can they love a God they dont know? How can they love a God whom they know nothing about?
And still on those verses, they read,

And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all
thy strength, and with all thy
mind; and thy neighbour as
thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do,
and thou shalt live. Luke 10:27-28

This verse like some few words of Christ are addressed specifically to the israelites and all that kept the law. That quotation was actually from the law, Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18. Now, Christ quoted from the law to the man, why? Because at that period, the God ordained way for the israelites to be saved was by the law. Thats why Romans 7:10 tells us that the law was ordained to life.
But now, the law has been set aside, you cant make it right with God via the law.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be
justified in his sight... Rom 3:20

Now we know that the system of the law was set aside at the death of Jesus. That was why the curtain of the Holy of Holies was torn. It signified the end of the law. So, trying to say that we can be saved by loving God and our neighbours is not valid here.
The only way ordained for men to be saved, to make heaven is through the gospel.

I am not ashamed of the Good News, because it is the
power God uses to save
everyone who believes—to
save the Jews first, and then
to save non-Jews. Rom 1:16

That is it. God can not save anyone anymore except by the gospel.
When Jesus spoke, he clearly made it known that,
Jesus saith to him, I am the way, the truth and the life: No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
And to your point on ignorance, this is what God makes clear to us,

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but
now commandeth all men
every where to repent: Acts 17:30

That is why the Church must get fully well into the business of evangelism by preaching the Word.
No man can be saved except through Jesus.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none
other name under heaven
given among men, whereby
we must be saved. Acts 4:12
This is what the Word of God states. I am no "fanatic" as used by some. I'm only stating what is in the Word. There is no way to heaven save through Jesus.

macof: so all our traditionalist fore-fathers would go to hell? Lol

idnoble135:
I've given you an answer before. Make reference to it.
If you wont ask intelligent questions, i might be forced to ignore you.
Cheers!

idnoble135: Ok, i read your reply where you insisted that those who dont know Christ can go to heaven provided they do love God and love their neighbours. The first question is which God would they love? There are gods and there is God. How can they love a God they dont know? How can they love a God whom they know nothing about?
And still on those verses, they read,

idnoble135:

And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all
thy strength, and with all thy
mind; and thy neighbour as
thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do,
and thou shalt live. Luke 10:27-28

This verse like some few words of Christ are addressed specifically to the israelites and all that kept the law. That quotation was actually from the law, Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18. Now, Christ quoted from the law to the man, why? Because at that period, the God ordained way for the israelites to be saved was by the law. Thats why Romans 7:10 tells us that the law was ordained to life.
But now, the law has been set aside, you cant make it right with God via the law.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be
justified in his sight... Rom 3:20

Now we know that the system of the law was set aside at the death of Jesus. That was why the curtain of the Holy of Holies was torn. It signified the end of the law. So, trying to say that we can be saved by loving God and our neighbours is not valid here.

idnoble135:
The only way ordained for men to be saved, to make heaven is through the gospel.

I am not ashamed of the Good News, because it is the
power God uses to save
everyone who believes—to
save the Jews first, and then
to save non-Jews. Rom 1:16

That is it. God can not save anyone anymore except by the gospel.
When Jesus spoke, he clearly made it known that,
Jesus saith to him, I am the way, the truth and the life: No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
And to your point on ignorance, this is what God makes clear to us,

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but
now commandeth all men
every where to repent: Acts 17:30

That is why the Church must get fully well into the business of evangelism by preaching the Word.
No man can be saved except through Jesus.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none
other name under heaven
given among men, whereby
we must be saved. Acts 4:12
This is what the Word of God states. I am no "fanatic" as used by some. I'm only stating what is in the Word. There is no way to heaven save through Jesus.

striktlymi:

I understand the point you tried to raise here but you are getting it all wrong. What exactly does it take to love God? Is it by recognising him as God? The simple answer here is a resounding NO!!! Christ made us understand what it takes to love him:

John 14:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If one calls himself a Christian and acknowledges God but does not keep the commandments of Christ then that individual deceives himself. On the converse, an unbeliever who has no prior knowledge of Christ or of God due to no fault of his, but does right in line with the principles of right conscience, demonstrates by that act that he or she loves God.

Recall that God himself made us understand that in the days of the new covenant he will entrench his laws firmly in the hearts of men:

Jeremiah 31:33
King James Version (KJV)
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Now, one can argue that God was referring to the Israelites when he made that comment but we know that argument is not tenable because Paul reveals clearly that this also is applicable to the gentiles when he said:

Romans 2:10-20
King James Version (KJV)
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another)

From the foregoing we can see that Paul recognises the fact that even the Gentiles, who do not have the law given to them directly, can keep the law through their natural inclinations, (i.e their consciences) and as such judgement for them would be based on the dictates of their consciences i.e for those who through no fault of theirs are not Christians.



I have shown scripturally that Christ's words were not just directed at the Jews. Remember that the letter of Paul to the Romans was written after Christ left this Earth and Paul's letter confirms that the Gentiles can also keep the law without being aware.



No Jew was saved by the law of love for God and neighbour. I have demonstrated in my previous posts that everyone, whether Jew or Gentile, before or after Christ was saved only by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. No man was in heaven before the death and resurrection of Christ.

macof: enoch

macof:
and elijah nko?

striktlymi: I will do this in two halves...first will be the ish with Enoch and then Elijah...



I believe the relevant verse from Sacred scriptures regarding Enoch is:

Genesis 5:22-30
King James Version (KJV)
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

From the above we can see clearly that Enoch was taken by God after his sojourn here on Earth because he walked with God. In order words, he was faithful to God. This is exactly what happened to all those who walked with God before the coming of Jesus.

It is either one is faithful to God, irrespective of one's status in life, or one isn't. God claims or takes all those who do right by him while Satan claims or takes all those who die in God's displeasure. A good example of this would be the case of Moses:

Jude 1:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

After the life of Moses here on Earth there was a battle of ownership between Satan and the Archangel Michael over who has the right of claim to Moses.

The point here really, is that when God claims or takes an individual, it only means that the person left this world in God's favour and as such does not deserve to be damned, or taken by Satan. Hence, the verse about Enoch only depicts God's ownership of Enoch and his 'destiny' to be in Heaven. This does not mean that Enoch was taken into God's abode.



The relevant verse here is:

2 Kings 2
King James Version (KJV)
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Now, we need to understand that the term "Heaven" is used to denote different things in Sacred scriptures. Hence when we read some verses therein, it is important to note the context in which it is used.

Heaven can mean the region of the clouds that pass along the sky:

Genesis 1:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

In other passages it denotes the region of the stars that shine in the sky:

Genesis 1:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

...and of course what we know as a place where God resides in:

Matthew 5:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Thus when Elijah was said to have gone up to heaven, the author is not telling us that he was admitted into God's abode but that he literally ascended up into the clouds. This is similar to what happened on the day of Christ's ascension into the abode of his Father:

Acts 1:6-12
King James Version (KJV)
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel

As Jesus went up literally, his disciples continued staring up into heaven i.e they were still looking up at the sky, just like Elisha did when Elijah was taken up into the clouds.

striktlymi :

I understand the point you
tried to raise here but you are
getting it all wrong. What
exactly does it take to love
God? Is it by recognising him
as God? The simple answer here is a resounding NO!!!
Christ made us understand
what it takes to love him: John 14:15
King James Version (KJV) 15 If ye love me, keep my
commandments. If one calls himself a Christian
and acknowledges God but
does not keep the
commandments of Christ
then that individual deceives
himself. On the converse, an unbeliever who has no prior
knowledge of Christ or of
God due to no fault of his, but
does right in line with the
principles of right conscience,
demonstrates by that act that he or she loves God.

Jeremiah 31:33
King James Version (KJV) 33 But this shall be the
covenant that I will make
with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the
Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be
my people. Now, one can argue that God
was referring to the Israelites
when he made that comment

Paul
reveals clearly that this also is applicable to the gentiles
when he said: Romans 2:10-20
King James Version (KJV) 12 For as many as have sinned
without law shall also perish
without law: and as many as
have sinned in the law shall
be judged by the law; 13 ( For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile
accusing or else excusing one
another) From the foregoing we can
see that Paul recognises the
fact that even the Gentiles,
who do not have the law
given to them directly, can
keep the law through their natural inclinations, (i.e their
consciences) and as such
judgement for them would
be based on the dictates of
their consciences i.e for those
who through no fault of theirs are not Christians.

idnoble135:

The question is how can someone who does not know God demonstrate his love for God?

idnoble135:
The question also is who is an israelite? Lemme quote the passage again.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the
house of Israel after those
days, says the LORD: I will put
My law in their minds, and
write it on their hearts; and I
will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jer 31:33

Looks like you missed the above, meaning it was to commence at a certain period. The next question is who was God talking to? I agree with you that it does not mean israelite literally, but it does not neither mean it is for those who did not know Christ.
What do i mean? God was speaking to a spiritual israel who we are. The israelite knew God. They had a relationship with God, so are we. But it does not refer to other nations that do not know God. Israel is a type of the church. Thats why even Stephen in Acts 7 calls the israelites a church. Which has the same basic meaning that they were called out of different nations which we also are all also called out of the world.
So God was not speaking about people who do not know him. It was to those already recreated by Him. This verses will help Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:26.

idnoble135:
I knew you would quote this verse, lol.
When you study the book of Romans, precisely from chapter one to seven, you will understand that the Apostle was trying to show why the law could not save. The law was given specifically to the Jews on Mount Sinai. So the apostle was saying that the law applied to the Jews. But the gentiles, who did not know the law, were permitted to live based on conscience. Now the law he was talking about was the law of Moses, and we know that the law has been set aside, has ceased to function.
Now he can not in chapter two say their were two ways to be right with God when he already made it clear in chapter one that the gospel of Christ is the only way God has chosen to save men. Morality wont save men. Good works wont save men. Only Jesus can.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is
the power of God unto
salvation to every one that
believeth; to the Jew first,
and also to the Greek. Rom 1:16

idnoble135:
So it remains. I have asked and asked, why would Jesus then ask us to preach the gospel if those who have not heard it will still make heaven based on good works and love for God.

idnoble135:
I leave you with this good example. The man cornelius was a good man(Read Acts 10). He gave alms, he was morally Ok and everything we might want to point out. But when the angel came, the angel told him to go call Peter. Why? Because his good works could not save him. Only Jesus would do. He had to hear the gospel. God presents to us the final answer in that chapter. Jesus is the answer for the world. No matter how kind, how good, how nice, some one is, they can not be saved. Only Jesus can save.
The words of the master himself.

Jesus saith to him, I am the way, the truth and the life: No man cometh to the Father, but by me. John 14:6


*I quoted only the posts i wanted to work on.

Only Jesus
saves...everyone before,
during or after Jesus MUST go
through him to the Father
but not everyone MUST believe in him to get to him.

And the bold contradicts all
that you have been saying
before now.

striktlymi:

I believe I already addressed that question with the relevant scriptural backing. Jesus talked about demonstrating love for God by keeping his commandments while Paul confirmed to us that the Gentiles can keep the commandments without knowing God.

I have also addressed the above before. Only Jesus saves...everyone before, during or after Jesus MUST go through him to the Father[b] but not everyone MUST believe in him to get to him. [/b]

striktlymi: I will do this in two halves...first will be the ish with Enoch and then Elijah...



I believe the relevant verse from Sacred scriptures regarding Enoch is:

Genesis 5:22-30
King James Version (KJV)
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

From the above we can see clearly that Enoch was taken by God after his sojourn here on Earth because he walked with God. In order words, he was faithful to God. This is exactly what happened to all those who walked with God before the coming of Jesus.

It is either one is faithful to God, irrespective of one's status in life, or one isn't. God claims or takes all those who do right by him while Satan claims or takes all those who die in God's displeasure. A good example of this would be the case of Moses:

Jude 1:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

After the life of Moses here on Earth there was a battle of ownership between Satan and the Archangel Michael over who has the right of claim to Moses.

The point here really, is that when God claims or takes an individual, it only means that the person left this world in God's favour and as such does not deserve to be damned, or taken by Satan. Hence, the verse about Enoch only depicts God's ownership of Enoch and his 'destiny' to be in Heaven. This does not mean that Enoch was taken into God's abode.



The relevant verse here is:

2 Kings 2
King James Version (KJV)
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Now, we need to understand that the term "Heaven" is used to denote different things in Sacred scriptures. Hence when we read some verses therein, it is important to note the context in which it is used.

Heaven can mean the region of the clouds that pass along the sky:

Genesis 1:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

In other passages it denotes the region of the stars that shine in the sky:

Genesis 1:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

...and of course what we know as a place where God resides in:

Matthew 5:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Thus when Elijah was said to have gone up to heaven, the author is not telling us that he was admitted into God's abode but that he literally ascended up into the clouds. This is similar to what happened on the day of Christ's ascension into the abode of his Father:

Acts 1:6-12
King James Version (KJV)
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel

As Jesus went up literally, his disciples continued staring up into heaven i.e they were still looking up at the sky, just like Elisha did when Elijah was taken up into the clouds.

Azboy34: What i see in dis thread z TRIBALISM and nothing else. It z called ETANU in Yoruba language. Why should d OP brought out topic lyk dis? I think d op must be a CHRISTIAN(non- muslim). May Allah in his infinity mercy forgive u(amin suma amin).

macof:

Arab slave. must u use "Allah"? Can't u use "Olorun" or "Olodumare"

Ps. Allah is one of numerous Arab pagan gods

obadiah777: ..

*Kails*:


long time bro.
i see you've taken a break from NL just like i did/am

hope all is well with u dear.

@op sorry for the derailment.